Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

1203RE: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners

Expand Messages
  • Mike Ewert
    Sep 1 1:41 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I think the reason absorption hasn't scaled down well is maintenance. Also,
      solar absorption works, but you need concentrating collectors which cost
      more. Good flat plate collectors can do it, but it is marginal. Given a
      little more engineering development and mass production, I have no doubt
      they could compete. But, there is the bootstrap problem of getting to that
      point.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Robert Johnston [mailto:rjohnsto@...]
      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 8:58 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners


      I hadn't noticed the weblinks in my quick read before.
      Adsorption/absorption chillers
      are not new. We have one in the building where I work. They are efficient
      on an
      industrial scale. I don't know what factors have kept them from scaling
      down to
      home use, but it would be interesting if they could.

      Actually, I suppose you could consider this a variant on the dessicant drier
      tech
      I mentioned, since silica after all is a dessicant.

      The Krum link is to Houston; anyone know these people? They appear just to
      be
      distributors, but maybe they might have some idea of the factors that limit
      downsizing.

      These units are industrial size, of course. Wonder if scaledown is even
      practical.
      These units are 6' x 9' x 9' and the input hot water flow is around 10 cubic
      feet/min.
      That is a little fast for most solar hot water heaters to produce! They
      seem better
      suited to cogeneration in industrial systems that generate heat.

      Anybody else have some thoughts on this?

      Robert

      -----Original Message-----
      From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:50 PM
      To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners


      Robert:

      Thanks for the interest. I am not opposed to ammonia. It simply makes life a
      little more complicated.

      I "designed" a system that used chilled water to cool and heated water to
      heat. The main problem was that it required a rather large, insulated
      holding tank. I proposed to use a concrete tank and bury it.

      I found a simpler design that used silica gel and water. It uses
      solar-heated water to squeeze the water out of the silica gel. If you looked
      at the web site that I listed, you can see a commercial application of such
      a system. It has much going for it: few moving parts; no corrosive
      chemicals; no excessive pressures or temperatures; and simple. The only
      problem is that I can't find any residential applications and information is
      scarce.

      Geothermal is cool, no pun intended. The main problem that I have
      encountered is that it is expensive to drill several wells and there is also
      a fear that you could contaminate your drinking water. That is geothermal
      that uses water wells. I have also heard of geothermal that circulated water
      through pipes located 10+ feet below ground. A friend of mine worked with a
      company that uses directional drilling to dig the lines for fiber optic
      cable and conduit. He thought that it would be an easy matter to use their
      machine to drill the circulating lines. My biggest obstacle, is that I have
      no idea how much line, etc that I would need. Lack of knowledge has stopped
      me once again. My thought was that I could put a coil in my air conditioner
      blower, before it got to the a/c coil, so that I could pre-cool my air. The
      idea was that if it worked well enough, the a/c would not need to kick in. I
      wanted to find a small circulating pump (again, I had no idea what size) and
      have it run by a solar panel. The hotter it is outside, the more it pumps. I
      have a friend in Lake Jackson who drilled several wells and used it to cool
      his house. It worked OK for a while, but then he had problems with his
      wells.

      Anyway, I think that this is an interesting area and we would all benefit
      from sharing our knowledge.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Robert Johnston" <rjohnsto@...>
      To: <hreg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:14 PM
      Subject: [hreg] Solar Air Conditioners


      > Between the Nigerian Scams and the Environmental Spams, the good stuff is
      > hard to find here! However, there wasn't much comment on this note from
      > Billy Bell except Kevin pointing out the inefficiencies of thermoelectric
      > cooling (especially if tied to a solar cell!).
      >
      > However, it is an extremely interesting question and one I'd love to see
      > more discussion on. This is obviously one of the main barriers to this
      area
      > ever achieving the kind of renewable energy freedom that some other parts
      of
      > the country can do. The use of water as an evaporative coolant OK in
      > Arizona but not Houston--too humid already! In any case, even in a closed
      > system it wouldn't make a good medium for an efficient A/C.
      >
      > Anybody want to comment on what they think has the greatest potential in
      our
      > area?
      > Things that come to mind for me (besides ceiling fans, insulation, etc.)
      > are:
      >
      > 1. Dessicators. I know that natural gas fired units are now used for
      > commercial buildings in some locations. I don't know if any efficient
      solar
      > units have been designed. But if you could dry out the air, that would
      help
      > a lot. And then you might even be able to put a little cool water back in
      > as evaporative coolant as in Arizona.
      >
      > 2. Geothermal units. I'm puzzled why these haven't taken off, unless it
      is
      > their installation expense. Why are they so expensive? Are they not
      good?
      > A local A/C guy told me there are lots of problems with mold and odor in
      the
      > heat pump part of the installation. I don't know if that is true. He is
      > death on heat pumps **period** for that reason, and prefers straight
      A/C's.
      > But there is still something appealing to me of trying to cool compressed
      > gas with ground temperature rather than air temperature medium. I've seen
      > some of the numbers posted on the web (very high S.E.E.R.), but there is a
      > lot of hype by vendors. Since these aren't that popular, is it because
      they
      > don't work that well in practice, or is it just the cost of installation?
      > What is the payback period in this area, then? These are some questions
      I'd
      > like to see discussed.
      >
      > As far as ammonia goes, Billy--I know it is not nice stuff, but it used to
      > be used in refrigerators long ago, so with proper engineering I guess it
      was
      > managed OK. (Before my time, so I have no first hand experience). I also
      > know that TDC put some ammonia cooling systems on a couple of new warden's
      > homes at the prison farm south of Lake Jackson on the corner of
      > FM2004/FM2611 and State Hwy 36. It is a duplex unit. The houses have
      > optimally sloping roofs aimed towards the sun, and then on the rooftops
      were
      > solar collectors. They may have had solar hot water too--I don't
      > recall--but I remember reading in the newspaper when they built them about
      > their ammonia cooling systems. This would have been around 1981-85
      > timeframe. I also know that the collectors are now gone, but I don't know
      > why. It could just be that TDC didn't want to fuss with them--e.g., it
      may
      > have been environmentally "cool" (pun intended) to use solar on state
      > institutions at that time, but the maintenance expense for handling such
      an
      > unusual system that was different than all the other onsite A/C's might
      have
      > caused rethinking of the project down the road. Or, it may be that the
      > units just didn't hold up to use. I don't know, but I assume you could
      find
      > out more by asking around, or writing TDC.
      >
      > In any case, if any of you have some thoughts on the subject of solar or
      > just more efficient air conditioning/cooling, why don't we see if we can
      get
      > a discussion going on this subject and enlighten ourselves?
      >
      > Robert Johnston
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: William M. Bell, Jr. [mailto:wmb@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:23 AM
      > To: hreg@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [hreg] Digest Number 281
      >
      >
      > > Wow! What an email regarding the livestock industry and the whales. Who
      > are
      > > they from? tpwc---ENVIRO ALERT <envir_456@... doesn't do much for
      > me.
      > >
      > > Steve Stelzer
      >
      > I thought that livestock produced methane, which was a renewable? Just
      > Kidding ; ) Although I appreciate information of this sort, I am more
      > concerned that this discussion group stays on target.
      >
      > By the way, I have been doing a great deal of looking around in my spare
      > time (which is not much) at solar air conditioners. There a number of
      > alternatives out there. It sounds strange until you view solar as an
      energy
      > source (heat). Most solar air conditioners work by a process called
      > adsorption. An efficient, economical solar a/c system, that could be used
      in
      > residential cooling would be an important contribution to renewable
      energy.
      > Think of the amount of heat generated in this city by a/c and the amount
      of
      > electricity that is wasted producing this heat.
      >
      > The adsorption units that I have looked at use either ammonia
      (refrigerant)
      > and calcium chloride (absorber) (or some other chemical) or water and
      silica
      > gel. The water and silica gel seems most promising to me. Ammonia is too
      > dangerous to have inside my house and it makes it difficult to work out a
      > system in which I can keep it outside. Water, however, is safe and when it
      > evaporates, absorbs a great deal of heat.
      >
      > There is also a solid state alternative that I have not had much
      opportunity
      > to explore. They use solid state refrigerators in small outdoor coolers.
      > When you pass a 12V current through the diode, one side gets hot and the
      > other side gets cool. Perhaps, we could use the hot side to pre-heat our
      > water to the hot water heater and the cold side to chill water that could
      be
      > used to cool the house, if needed. The unit could be attached to solar
      > panels that produce the 12V current. The hotter it is outside, the harder
      > the unit works. I like that!
      >
      > Some helpful web sites: http://www.caddet-ee.org/nl_html/001_02.htm
      > http://www.adsorptionchiller.com/
      >
      > Billy Bell
      > PO Box 926
      > Fulshear, Texas 77441-0926
      >
      > 713-439-1115 Telephone
      > 281-346-0994 Fax
      > wmb@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >





      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Show all 28 messages in this topic