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RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • laurantodd@pcisys.net
    Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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      Jim and Matt,
      Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
      start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
      I hope Hardrock never ...
      1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
      altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
      Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
      aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
      that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
      Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
      would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
      a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
      handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
      character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
      is still a great race).
      2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
      race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
      race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
      and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
      who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
      But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
      volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
      volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
      3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
      those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
      pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
      challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
      ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
      Todd Burgess


      > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
      > wrote:
      > > Matt,
      > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
      > > spend, can you pay my entry
      > > fee?
      >
      > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
      >
      > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
      > > sleeping in one person tent
      > > and take baths in cold rivers.
      >
      > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
      > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
      > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
      > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
      >
      > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
      >
      > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
      > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
      > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
      > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
      > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
      > but then they just have to substitute some other
      > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
      > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
      > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
      > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
      > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
      > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
      > keep everyone happy.
      >
      > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
      > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
      > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
      > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
      > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
      >
      >
      > =====
      > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Find a job, post your resume.
      > http://careers.yahoo.com
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
      >
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      >
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      >
      >


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    • Dick Huff
      Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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        Hello everyone!

        I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
        year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
        included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
        long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
        Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
        you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

        The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
        people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
        Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
        requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
        Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
        will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
        his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
        you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
        work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
        excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
        year.

        I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
        said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
        such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
        nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
        the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
        year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
        for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
        many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
        there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
        Hardrock will always be there.

        It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
        Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
        expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
        all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

        Thanks everyone.

        Dick Huff













        - Original Message -----
        From: <laurantodd@...>
        To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
        Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


        > Jim and Matt,
        > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
        > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
        > I hope Hardrock never ...
        > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
        high-
        > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
        > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
        appealing
        > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
        know
        > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
        spot. If
        > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
        > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
        which has
        > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
        and can
        > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
        > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
        Leadville
        > is still a great race).
        > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
        this
        > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
        your
        > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
        low-key
        > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
        people
        > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
        with.
        > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
        course,
        > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
        > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
        > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
        For
        > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
        members who
        > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
        the
        > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
        an
        > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
        > Todd Burgess
        >
        >
        > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
        > > wrote:
        > > > Matt,
        > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
        > > > spend, can you pay my entry
        > > > fee?
        > >
        > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
        > >
        > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
        > > > sleeping in one person tent
        > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
        > >
        > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
        > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
        > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
        > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
        > >
        > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
        > >
        > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
        > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
        > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
        > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
        > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
        > > but then they just have to substitute some other
        > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
        > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
        > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
        > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
        > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
        > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
        > > keep everyone happy.
        > >
        > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
        > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
        > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
        > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
        > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
        > >
        > >
        > > =====
        > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
        > >
        > > __________________________________________________
        > > Do You Yahoo!?
        > > Find a job, post your resume.
        > > http://careers.yahoo.com
        > >
        > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
        > >
        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
        >
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        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Herr, Dennis B.
        Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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          Matt wrote:

          You must choose
          names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
          keep everyone happy.

          How about the old dart board?

          Dennis

          -
        • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
          Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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            Matt,
            I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
            person.
            What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
            Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
            too late.
            All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
            pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
            four years.
            Stop making ass of yourself.
            Bozena

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


            --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
            wrote:
            > Matt,
            > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
            > spend, can you pay my entry
            > fee?

            Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

            > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
            > sleeping in one person tent
            > and take baths in cold rivers.

            I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
            else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
            demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
            ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

            > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

            I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
            and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
            the selection process no matter how fair you try to
            make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
            keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
            but then they just have to substitute some other
            arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
            lottery (like Western States), a trail work
            requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
            standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
            "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
            names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
            keep everyone happy.

            The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
            special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
            plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
            have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
            want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


            =====
            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Find a job, post your resume.
            http://careers.yahoo.com

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          • Herr, Dennis B.
            Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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              Come on people; get a sense of humor!

              Get a life outside of running.

              What happened to the spirit of charity
              and unity that has been ballyhooed since
              9-11?

              Dennis Herr

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
              To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
              Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


              Matt,
              I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
              person.
              What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
              Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
              too late.
              All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
              pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
              four years.
              Stop making ass of yourself.
              Bozena

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


              --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
              wrote:
              > Matt,
              > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
              > spend, can you pay my entry
              > fee?

              Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

              > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
              > sleeping in one person tent
              > and take baths in cold rivers.

              I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
              else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
              demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
              ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

              > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

              I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
              and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
              the selection process no matter how fair you try to
              make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
              keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
              but then they just have to substitute some other
              arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
              lottery (like Western States), a trail work
              requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
              standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
              "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
              names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
              keep everyone happy.

              The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
              special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
              plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
              have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
              want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


              =====
              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Find a job, post your resume.
              http://careers.yahoo.com

              To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


              To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

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            • Matt Mahoney
              Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                cheap.

                I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                last names starting with A through L run next year and
                M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                Somebody isn't going to like it.

                I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                =====
                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                __________________________________________________
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                Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
                http://personals.yahoo.com
              • Stevan Pattillo
                Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                  Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                  discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                  Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                  be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                  us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                  what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                  other's company at Hardrock.
                  As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                  entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                  what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                  comunity based mental health program.
                • dale garland
                  Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                    Hi Everyone
                    Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                    couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                    in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                    people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                    group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                    know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                    did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                    that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                    The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                    than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                    imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                    when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                    event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                    themselves.
                    This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                    "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                    who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                    who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                    than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                    all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                    answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                    look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                    we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                    opinion.
                    Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                    involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                    July.
                    Dale Garland
                    RD, HRH


                    Dick Huff wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello everyone!
                    >
                    > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                    > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                    > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                    > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                    > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                    > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                    >
                    > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                    > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                    > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                    > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                    > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                    > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                    > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                    > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                    > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                    > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                    > year.
                    >
                    > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                    > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                    > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                    > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                    > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                    > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                    > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                    > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                    > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                    > Hardrock will always be there.
                    >
                    > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                    > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                    > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                    > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                    >
                    > Thanks everyone.
                    >
                    > Dick Huff
                    >
                    > - Original Message -----
                    > From: <laurantodd@...>
                    > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                    >
                    > > Jim and Matt,
                    > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                    > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                    > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                    > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                    > high-
                    > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                    > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                    > appealing
                    > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                    > know
                    > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                    > spot. If
                    > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                    > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                    > which has
                    > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                    > and can
                    > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                    > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                    > Leadville
                    > > is still a great race).
                    > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                    > this
                    > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                    > your
                    > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                    > low-key
                    > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                    > people
                    > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                    > with.
                    > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                    > course,
                    > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                    > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                    > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                    > For
                    > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                    > members who
                    > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                    > the
                    > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                    > an
                    > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                    > > Todd Burgess
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > Matt,
                    > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                    > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                    > > > > fee?
                    > > >
                    > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                    > > >
                    > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                    > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                    > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                    > > >
                    > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                    > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                    > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                    > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                    > > >
                    > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                    > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                    > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                    > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                    > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                    > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                    > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                    > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                    > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                    > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                    > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                    > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                    > > > keep everyone happy.
                    > > >
                    > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                    > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                    > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                    > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                    > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > =====
                    > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                    > > >
                    > > > __________________________________________________
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                  • Herr, Dennis B.
                    Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                      Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                      of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                      the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                      and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                      In other words, no more pampering. That should
                      cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                      selection process. It should make the committee's
                      job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                      post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                      to endorse this format.

                      dennis
                    • Matt Mahoney
                      ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                        --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                        > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                        > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                        > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                        > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                        > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                        > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                        > selection process. It should make the committee's
                        > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                        > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                        > to endorse this format.

                        Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                        starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                        your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                        drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                        who are bored with the current course or don't think
                        it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                        Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                        =====
                        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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                      • Stevan Pattillo
                        But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                          But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                          Steve
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