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RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • laurantodd@pcisys.net
    Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
      Jim and Matt,
      Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
      start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
      I hope Hardrock never ...
      1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
      altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
      Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
      aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
      that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
      Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
      would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
      a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
      handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
      character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
      is still a great race).
      2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
      race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
      race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
      and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
      who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
      But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
      volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
      volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
      3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
      those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
      pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
      challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
      ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
      Todd Burgess


      > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
      > wrote:
      > > Matt,
      > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
      > > spend, can you pay my entry
      > > fee?
      >
      > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
      >
      > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
      > > sleeping in one person tent
      > > and take baths in cold rivers.
      >
      > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
      > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
      > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
      > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
      >
      > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
      >
      > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
      > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
      > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
      > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
      > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
      > but then they just have to substitute some other
      > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
      > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
      > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
      > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
      > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
      > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
      > keep everyone happy.
      >
      > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
      > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
      > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
      > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
      > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
      >
      >
      > =====
      > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Find a job, post your resume.
      > http://careers.yahoo.com
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
      >
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      >
      >


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    • jfisher
      Hey Matt (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider apologizing, before you
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
        Hey Matt
        (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge
        You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider
        apologizing,
        before you put your foot into it a little further than you can chew.)
        Your cold logic and rational below do not cover up your total lack of
        understanding, glory grabbing, patting yourself on the back or whatever it is
        that you are doing, and thinking the rest of the HR100 runners are to dumb to
        see through it.

        GET THIS plain and simple, the Hardrock is not about prestige, recognition,
        money, being noble, or whatever else is in your mind. If as you stated so
        clearly below in your reply to Bozena and also in your reply to Joe Clapper,
        in your mind you equate the specialness of the Hardrock with prestige,
        recognition, or whatever else you are projecting onto it -- then you have
        missed the point of the run entirely. It is very sad that even though you
        have been there many years, you could not see through your own little
        attention grabbing world, to see the real beauty of what the Hardrock 100
        really is. 1st as stated in so many of the HR100 documents this event is
        about the runners testing themselves against those incredibly beautiful
        mountains. 2nd It is about the runners period; testing themselves personally,
        reaching past themselves -- out to other runners, camaraderie, seeing the
        inner beauty and strengths of the other runners and helpers on the course.
        (Not just seeing everyone else as more people upon which to inflict yourself
        and as victims upon whom your can expound your personal glories and athletic
        feats) This is a lesson that you would best learn from Joel Zuker. Every
        person associated with the Hardrock felt a great loss with his departure,
        because we were all his friends --- because he saw all of us as friends (not
        competitors, to play one up-man-ship verbal games with). Joel never met a
        stranger, every person he encountered he instantly saw a friend. And he
        equally instantly reached out to be of service, to contribute to the life of
        his newly found friend. That is what the Hardrock is about -- FRIENDS,
        voluntarily contributing to each other, because they are our friends, because
        we care about them. Again it is sad that you have missed one of the real
        beauties of the Hardrock, the other people (because you were so busy looking
        at yourself) The Hardrock is about the joy, happiness, the friendships, the
        love that get created when people come together with respect for each other
        and for the common purpose of running through the mountains together.

        My suggestion to the selection committee of -- Contributing to others (this
        event) because you care about them, is not an arbitrary hurdle. (and it is
        not one that you could probably leap over or crawl under) If all you have to
        contribute is -- raise the price, raise the price, make them pay, make them
        pay -- then you best keep your mouth shut and contribute nothing at all. I
        and many others are embarrassed that you could not even see Bozena's or Joe's
        genuine concern (financially) for themselves and for others, and that
        Bozena's hints were to subtle for you, that you chose instead to add further
        insult to injury. You best go take a bath in an icy river yourself and chill
        out your inflated (recognition and prestige seeking) ego. These things do not
        belong at the Hardrock.

        Joel Zuker, Joe Clapper, Bozena Maslanka, & I may never run Nolan's 14 but
        there are a few things you can still learn from us, actually something you
        are desperately seeking -- a way out of your lonelyness. Please consider what
        was offered here, out of genuine compassion for you.

        Finally Matt, I am sincerely sorry that I had to be the one who had to be so
        blunt and crude to you -- you asked for it many times and others were to
        polite. As said above, I am deeply saddened that you have failed to find one
        of the real goals and beauty of the Hardrock, FRIENDS, connecting sincerely
        and genuinely with the other people. Please come this next year with that
        being your goal. For you it will be harder than running the course -- I
        guarentee you Matt the reward will also be much greater. It's called
        happiness.

        Jim Fisher

        Matt Mahoney wrote:

        > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
        > wrote:
        > > Matt,
        > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
        > > spend, can you pay my entry
        > > fee?
        >
        > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
        >
        > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
        > > sleeping in one person tent
        > > and take baths in cold rivers.
        >
        > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
        > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
        > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
        > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
        >
        > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
        >
        > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
        > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
        > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
        > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
        > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
        > but then they just have to substitute some other
        > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
        > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
        > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
        > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
        > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
        > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
        > keep everyone happy.
        >
        > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
        > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
        > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
        > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
        > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
        >
        > =====
        > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Find a job, post your resume.
        > http://careers.yahoo.com
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dick Huff
        Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
          Hello everyone!

          I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
          year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
          included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
          long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
          Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
          you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

          The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
          people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
          Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
          requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
          Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
          will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
          his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
          you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
          work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
          excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
          year.

          I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
          said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
          such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
          nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
          the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
          year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
          for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
          many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
          there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
          Hardrock will always be there.

          It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
          Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
          expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
          all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

          Thanks everyone.

          Dick Huff













          - Original Message -----
          From: <laurantodd@...>
          To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
          Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


          > Jim and Matt,
          > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
          > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
          > I hope Hardrock never ...
          > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
          high-
          > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
          > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
          appealing
          > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
          know
          > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
          spot. If
          > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
          > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
          which has
          > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
          and can
          > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
          > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
          Leadville
          > is still a great race).
          > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
          this
          > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
          your
          > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
          low-key
          > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
          people
          > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
          with.
          > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
          course,
          > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
          > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
          > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
          For
          > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
          members who
          > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
          the
          > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
          an
          > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
          > Todd Burgess
          >
          >
          > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
          > > wrote:
          > > > Matt,
          > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
          > > > spend, can you pay my entry
          > > > fee?
          > >
          > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
          > >
          > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
          > > > sleeping in one person tent
          > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
          > >
          > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
          > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
          > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
          > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
          > >
          > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
          > >
          > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
          > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
          > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
          > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
          > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
          > > but then they just have to substitute some other
          > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
          > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
          > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
          > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
          > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
          > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
          > > keep everyone happy.
          > >
          > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
          > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
          > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
          > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
          > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
          > >
          > >
          > > =====
          > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Find a job, post your resume.
          > > http://careers.yahoo.com
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------
          > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
          > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Herr, Dennis B.
          Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
            Matt wrote:

            You must choose
            names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
            keep everyone happy.

            How about the old dart board?

            Dennis

            -
          • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
            Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
              Matt,
              I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
              person.
              What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
              Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
              too late.
              All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
              pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
              four years.
              Stop making ass of yourself.
              Bozena

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


              --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
              wrote:
              > Matt,
              > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
              > spend, can you pay my entry
              > fee?

              Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

              > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
              > sleeping in one person tent
              > and take baths in cold rivers.

              I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
              else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
              demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
              ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

              > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

              I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
              and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
              the selection process no matter how fair you try to
              make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
              keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
              but then they just have to substitute some other
              arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
              lottery (like Western States), a trail work
              requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
              standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
              "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
              names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
              keep everyone happy.

              The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
              special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
              plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
              have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
              want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


              =====
              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

              __________________________________________________
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              Find a job, post your resume.
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            • Herr, Dennis B.
              Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                Come on people; get a sense of humor!

                Get a life outside of running.

                What happened to the spirit of charity
                and unity that has been ballyhooed since
                9-11?

                Dennis Herr

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
                To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                Matt,
                I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                person.
                What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                too late.
                All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                four years.
                Stop making ass of yourself.
                Bozena

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                wrote:
                > Matt,
                > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                > spend, can you pay my entry
                > fee?

                Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                > sleeping in one person tent
                > and take baths in cold rivers.

                I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                but then they just have to substitute some other
                arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                keep everyone happy.

                The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                =====
                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Find a job, post your resume.
                http://careers.yahoo.com

                To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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              • Matt Mahoney
                Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                  Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                  guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                  stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                  cheap.

                  I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                  What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                  way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                  last names starting with A through L run next year and
                  M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                  is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                  Somebody isn't going to like it.

                  I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                  friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                  =====
                  -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                  __________________________________________________
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                  Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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                • Stevan Pattillo
                  Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                    Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                    discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                    Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                    be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                    us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                    what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                    other's company at Hardrock.
                    As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                    entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                    what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                    comunity based mental health program.
                  • dale garland
                    Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                      Hi Everyone
                      Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                      couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                      in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                      people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                      group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                      know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                      did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                      that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                      The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                      than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                      imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                      when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                      event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                      themselves.
                      This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                      "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                      who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                      who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                      than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                      all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                      answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                      look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                      we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                      opinion.
                      Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                      involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                      July.
                      Dale Garland
                      RD, HRH


                      Dick Huff wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello everyone!
                      >
                      > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                      > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                      > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                      > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                      > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                      > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                      >
                      > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                      > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                      > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                      > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                      > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                      > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                      > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                      > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                      > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                      > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                      > year.
                      >
                      > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                      > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                      > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                      > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                      > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                      > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                      > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                      > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                      > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                      > Hardrock will always be there.
                      >
                      > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                      > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                      > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                      > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                      >
                      > Thanks everyone.
                      >
                      > Dick Huff
                      >
                      > - Original Message -----
                      > From: <laurantodd@...>
                      > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                      >
                      > > Jim and Matt,
                      > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                      > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                      > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                      > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                      > high-
                      > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                      > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                      > appealing
                      > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                      > know
                      > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                      > spot. If
                      > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                      > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                      > which has
                      > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                      > and can
                      > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                      > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                      > Leadville
                      > > is still a great race).
                      > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                      > this
                      > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                      > your
                      > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                      > low-key
                      > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                      > people
                      > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                      > with.
                      > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                      > course,
                      > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                      > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                      > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                      > For
                      > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                      > members who
                      > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                      > the
                      > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                      > an
                      > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                      > > Todd Burgess
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > Matt,
                      > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                      > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                      > > > > fee?
                      > > >
                      > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                      > > >
                      > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                      > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                      > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                      > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                      > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                      > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                      > > >
                      > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                      > > >
                      > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                      > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                      > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                      > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                      > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                      > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                      > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                      > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                      > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                      > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                      > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                      > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                      > > > keep everyone happy.
                      > > >
                      > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                      > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                      > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                      > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                      > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > =====
                      > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                      > > >
                      > > > __________________________________________________
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                    • Herr, Dennis B.
                      Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
                        Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                        of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                        the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                        and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                        In other words, no more pampering. That should
                        cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                        selection process. It should make the committee's
                        job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                        post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                        to endorse this format.

                        dennis
                      • Matt Mahoney
                        ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
                          --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                          > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                          > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                          > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                          > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                          > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                          > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                          > selection process. It should make the committee's
                          > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                          > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                          > to endorse this format.

                          Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                          starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                          your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                          drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                          who are bored with the current course or don't think
                          it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                          Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                          =====
                          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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                        • Stevan Pattillo
                          But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
                            But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                            Steve
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