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RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • Keith Knipling
    One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually informative,
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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      One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes
      should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually
      informative, accurate, and beneficial, everything he says is usually said
      very much tongue-in-cheek. Whatever he says, though eccentric as it may
      seem, is usually genuine and never intended to insult anyone.

      Now to comment on what Joe said:

      I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
      younger people of lesser means.

      Right on! I hope 26 on a student budget qualifies. I think the committee
      should accept all applicants outside of 2 standard deviations of the mean
      age, which I'm guessing is 42 or so (i.e. the young guys and the old guys).
      This makes things more interesting than having 120 baby boomers. It also
      guarantees John DeWalt a position at the starting line. If there's any
      crime in all of this selection process, it would be John DeWalt missing an
      opportunity to continue his impressive string of finishes at Hardrock.

      Do I expect anyone to take me seriously? No. Just trying to provide some
      levity to an apparently tense situation. We supposedly run for recreation,
      not for another source of stress in our lives.

      Keith

      Keith Knipling
      Materials Science and Engineering
      213 Holden Hall
      Virginia Tech
      Blacksburg, VA 24061-0237
      Voice: (540) 231-2105
      Fax: (540) 231-8919
      e-mail: kkniplin@...

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:58 PM
      To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

      Matt,
      Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
      fee?
      Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
      and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
      town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
      everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
      have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
      kids.
      Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
      Thanks
      Bozena

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


      --- clapper@... wrote:
      >
      > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
      > up on this one.
      > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
      > in the same direction
      > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
      > white suburban, middle
      > age elite.

      I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
      plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
      series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
      including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
      easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
      ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
      or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
      see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
      people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
      TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
      what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
      there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
      says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
      reason to run the big ultras?


      =====
      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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    • Matt Mahoney
      ... Sure, at Wickham Park :-) ... I think it s good training. I don t know if anyone else has noticed but it seems to me that people that demand the most
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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        --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
        wrote:
        > Matt,
        > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
        > spend, can you pay my entry
        > fee?

        Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

        > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
        > sleeping in one person tent
        > and take baths in cold rivers.

        I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
        else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
        demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
        ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

        > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

        I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
        and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
        the selection process no matter how fair you try to
        make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
        keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
        but then they just have to substitute some other
        arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
        lottery (like Western States), a trail work
        requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
        standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
        "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
        names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
        keep everyone happy.

        The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
        special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
        plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
        have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
        want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


        =====
        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

        __________________________________________________
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        Find a job, post your resume.
        http://careers.yahoo.com
      • jfisher
        Hey Matt (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider apologizing, before you
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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          Hey Matt
          (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge
          You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider
          apologizing,
          before you put your foot into it a little further than you can chew.)
          Your cold logic and rational below do not cover up your total lack of
          understanding, glory grabbing, patting yourself on the back or whatever it is
          that you are doing, and thinking the rest of the HR100 runners are to dumb to
          see through it.

          GET THIS plain and simple, the Hardrock is not about prestige, recognition,
          money, being noble, or whatever else is in your mind. If as you stated so
          clearly below in your reply to Bozena and also in your reply to Joe Clapper,
          in your mind you equate the specialness of the Hardrock with prestige,
          recognition, or whatever else you are projecting onto it -- then you have
          missed the point of the run entirely. It is very sad that even though you
          have been there many years, you could not see through your own little
          attention grabbing world, to see the real beauty of what the Hardrock 100
          really is. 1st as stated in so many of the HR100 documents this event is
          about the runners testing themselves against those incredibly beautiful
          mountains. 2nd It is about the runners period; testing themselves personally,
          reaching past themselves -- out to other runners, camaraderie, seeing the
          inner beauty and strengths of the other runners and helpers on the course.
          (Not just seeing everyone else as more people upon which to inflict yourself
          and as victims upon whom your can expound your personal glories and athletic
          feats) This is a lesson that you would best learn from Joel Zuker. Every
          person associated with the Hardrock felt a great loss with his departure,
          because we were all his friends --- because he saw all of us as friends (not
          competitors, to play one up-man-ship verbal games with). Joel never met a
          stranger, every person he encountered he instantly saw a friend. And he
          equally instantly reached out to be of service, to contribute to the life of
          his newly found friend. That is what the Hardrock is about -- FRIENDS,
          voluntarily contributing to each other, because they are our friends, because
          we care about them. Again it is sad that you have missed one of the real
          beauties of the Hardrock, the other people (because you were so busy looking
          at yourself) The Hardrock is about the joy, happiness, the friendships, the
          love that get created when people come together with respect for each other
          and for the common purpose of running through the mountains together.

          My suggestion to the selection committee of -- Contributing to others (this
          event) because you care about them, is not an arbitrary hurdle. (and it is
          not one that you could probably leap over or crawl under) If all you have to
          contribute is -- raise the price, raise the price, make them pay, make them
          pay -- then you best keep your mouth shut and contribute nothing at all. I
          and many others are embarrassed that you could not even see Bozena's or Joe's
          genuine concern (financially) for themselves and for others, and that
          Bozena's hints were to subtle for you, that you chose instead to add further
          insult to injury. You best go take a bath in an icy river yourself and chill
          out your inflated (recognition and prestige seeking) ego. These things do not
          belong at the Hardrock.

          Joel Zuker, Joe Clapper, Bozena Maslanka, & I may never run Nolan's 14 but
          there are a few things you can still learn from us, actually something you
          are desperately seeking -- a way out of your lonelyness. Please consider what
          was offered here, out of genuine compassion for you.

          Finally Matt, I am sincerely sorry that I had to be the one who had to be so
          blunt and crude to you -- you asked for it many times and others were to
          polite. As said above, I am deeply saddened that you have failed to find one
          of the real goals and beauty of the Hardrock, FRIENDS, connecting sincerely
          and genuinely with the other people. Please come this next year with that
          being your goal. For you it will be harder than running the course -- I
          guarentee you Matt the reward will also be much greater. It's called
          happiness.

          Jim Fisher

          Matt Mahoney wrote:

          > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
          > wrote:
          > > Matt,
          > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
          > > spend, can you pay my entry
          > > fee?
          >
          > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
          >
          > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
          > > sleeping in one person tent
          > > and take baths in cold rivers.
          >
          > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
          > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
          > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
          > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
          >
          > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
          >
          > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
          > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
          > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
          > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
          > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
          > but then they just have to substitute some other
          > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
          > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
          > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
          > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
          > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
          > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
          > keep everyone happy.
          >
          > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
          > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
          > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
          > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
          > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
          >
          > =====
          > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Find a job, post your resume.
          > http://careers.yahoo.com
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • laurantodd@pcisys.net
          Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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            Jim and Matt,
            Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
            start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
            I hope Hardrock never ...
            1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
            altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
            Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
            aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
            that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
            Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
            would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
            a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
            handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
            character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
            is still a great race).
            2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
            race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
            race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
            and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
            who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
            But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
            volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
            volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
            3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
            those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
            pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
            challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
            ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
            Todd Burgess


            > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
            > wrote:
            > > Matt,
            > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
            > > spend, can you pay my entry
            > > fee?
            >
            > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
            >
            > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
            > > sleeping in one person tent
            > > and take baths in cold rivers.
            >
            > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
            > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
            > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
            > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
            >
            > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
            >
            > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
            > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
            > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
            > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
            > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
            > but then they just have to substitute some other
            > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
            > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
            > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
            > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
            > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
            > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
            > keep everyone happy.
            >
            > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
            > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
            > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
            > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
            > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
            >
            >
            > =====
            > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Find a job, post your resume.
            > http://careers.yahoo.com
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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          • Dick Huff
            Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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              Hello everyone!

              I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
              year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
              included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
              long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
              Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
              you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

              The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
              people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
              Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
              requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
              Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
              will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
              his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
              you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
              work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
              excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
              year.

              I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
              said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
              such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
              nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
              the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
              year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
              for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
              many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
              there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
              Hardrock will always be there.

              It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
              Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
              expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
              all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

              Thanks everyone.

              Dick Huff













              - Original Message -----
              From: <laurantodd@...>
              To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
              Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


              > Jim and Matt,
              > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
              > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
              > I hope Hardrock never ...
              > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
              high-
              > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
              > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
              appealing
              > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
              know
              > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
              spot. If
              > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
              > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
              which has
              > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
              and can
              > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
              > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
              Leadville
              > is still a great race).
              > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
              this
              > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
              your
              > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
              low-key
              > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
              people
              > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
              with.
              > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
              course,
              > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
              > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
              > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
              For
              > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
              members who
              > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
              the
              > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
              an
              > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
              > Todd Burgess
              >
              >
              > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > Matt,
              > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
              > > > spend, can you pay my entry
              > > > fee?
              > >
              > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
              > >
              > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
              > > > sleeping in one person tent
              > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
              > >
              > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
              > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
              > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
              > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
              > >
              > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
              > >
              > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
              > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
              > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
              > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
              > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
              > > but then they just have to substitute some other
              > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
              > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
              > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
              > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
              > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
              > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
              > > keep everyone happy.
              > >
              > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
              > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
              > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
              > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
              > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
              > >
              > >
              > > =====
              > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Find a job, post your resume.
              > > http://careers.yahoo.com
              > >
              > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
              > >
              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------------------
              > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
              > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
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              >
              >
            • Herr, Dennis B.
              Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                Matt wrote:

                You must choose
                names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                keep everyone happy.

                How about the old dart board?

                Dennis

                -
              • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
                Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                  Matt,
                  I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                  person.
                  What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                  Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                  too late.
                  All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                  pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                  four years.
                  Stop making ass of yourself.
                  Bozena

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                  To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                  --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                  wrote:
                  > Matt,
                  > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                  > spend, can you pay my entry
                  > fee?

                  Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                  > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                  > sleeping in one person tent
                  > and take baths in cold rivers.

                  I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                  else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                  demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                  ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                  > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                  I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                  and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                  the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                  make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                  keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                  but then they just have to substitute some other
                  arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                  lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                  requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                  standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                  "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                  names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                  keep everyone happy.

                  The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                  special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                  plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                  have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                  want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                  =====
                  -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Find a job, post your resume.
                  http://careers.yahoo.com

                  To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Herr, Dennis B.
                  Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                    Come on people; get a sense of humor!

                    Get a life outside of running.

                    What happened to the spirit of charity
                    and unity that has been ballyhooed since
                    9-11?

                    Dennis Herr

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
                    To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                    Matt,
                    I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                    person.
                    What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                    Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                    too late.
                    All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                    pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                    four years.
                    Stop making ass of yourself.
                    Bozena

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                    To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                    --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                    wrote:
                    > Matt,
                    > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                    > spend, can you pay my entry
                    > fee?

                    Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                    > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                    > sleeping in one person tent
                    > and take baths in cold rivers.

                    I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                    else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                    demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                    ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                    > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                    I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                    and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                    the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                    make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                    keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                    but then they just have to substitute some other
                    arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                    lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                    requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                    standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                    "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                    names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                    keep everyone happy.

                    The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                    special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                    plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                    have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                    want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                    =====
                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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                  • Matt Mahoney
                    Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                      Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                      guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                      stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                      cheap.

                      I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                      What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                      way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                      last names starting with A through L run next year and
                      M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                      is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                      Somebody isn't going to like it.

                      I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                      friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                      =====
                      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                      __________________________________________________
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                    • Stevan Pattillo
                      Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                        Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                        discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                        Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                        be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                        us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                        what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                        other's company at Hardrock.
                        As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                        entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                        what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                        comunity based mental health program.
                      • dale garland
                        Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                          Hi Everyone
                          Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                          couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                          in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                          people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                          group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                          know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                          did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                          that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                          The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                          than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                          imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                          when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                          event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                          themselves.
                          This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                          "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                          who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                          who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                          than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                          all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                          answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                          look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                          we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                          opinion.
                          Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                          involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                          July.
                          Dale Garland
                          RD, HRH


                          Dick Huff wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello everyone!
                          >
                          > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                          > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                          > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                          > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                          > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                          > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                          >
                          > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                          > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                          > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                          > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                          > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                          > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                          > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                          > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                          > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                          > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                          > year.
                          >
                          > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                          > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                          > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                          > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                          > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                          > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                          > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                          > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                          > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                          > Hardrock will always be there.
                          >
                          > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                          > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                          > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                          > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                          >
                          > Thanks everyone.
                          >
                          > Dick Huff
                          >
                          > - Original Message -----
                          > From: <laurantodd@...>
                          > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                          >
                          > > Jim and Matt,
                          > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                          > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                          > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                          > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                          > high-
                          > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                          > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                          > appealing
                          > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                          > know
                          > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                          > spot. If
                          > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                          > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                          > which has
                          > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                          > and can
                          > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                          > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                          > Leadville
                          > > is still a great race).
                          > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                          > this
                          > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                          > your
                          > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                          > low-key
                          > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                          > people
                          > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                          > with.
                          > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                          > course,
                          > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                          > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                          > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                          > For
                          > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                          > members who
                          > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                          > the
                          > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                          > an
                          > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                          > > Todd Burgess
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > > Matt,
                          > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                          > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                          > > > > fee?
                          > > >
                          > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                          > > >
                          > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                          > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                          > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                          > > >
                          > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                          > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                          > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                          > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                          > > >
                          > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                          > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                          > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                          > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                          > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                          > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                          > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                          > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                          > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                          > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                          > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                          > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                          > > > keep everyone happy.
                          > > >
                          > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                          > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                          > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                          > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                          > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > =====
                          > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                          > > >
                          > > > __________________________________________________
                          > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > > Find a job, post your resume.
                          > > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                          > > >
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                          > >
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                        • Herr, Dennis B.
                          Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                            Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                            of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                            the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                            and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                            In other words, no more pampering. That should
                            cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                            selection process. It should make the committee's
                            job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                            post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                            to endorse this format.

                            dennis
                          • Matt Mahoney
                            ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                              --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                              > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                              > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                              > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                              > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                              > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                              > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                              > selection process. It should make the committee's
                              > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                              > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                              > to endorse this format.

                              Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                              starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                              your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                              drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                              who are bored with the current course or don't think
                              it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                              Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                              =====
                              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                              __________________________________________________
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                            • Stevan Pattillo
                              But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                                Steve
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