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Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • Rebecca Clark and Blake Wood
    ... I don t have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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      jfisher wrote:

      > Thus my suggestion; Give some rating or credit in the selection process to
      > those applicants who have given service to and benefitted the run. ...

      I don't have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a
      limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
      extraordinary service to Hardrock. This doesn't quite address Jim's suggestion,
      which seems aimed more at the worker bees than at those who fill some specific
      role (the canonical example being Lisa Richardson in 2001). However, a large
      number of slots - about half in fact - are doled out at the selection committee's
      discretion. You should rest assured that the kind of service Jim refers to will
      play a large role in how these slots are awarded. I agree with Jim that one of
      the things that makes Hardrock what it is are the people who come back year after
      year to help mark the course, work an aid station, pace another runner, etc. I
      agree also that these people should be encouraged and rewarded for their
      dedication. The Hardrock Board is not at all interested in making Hardrock an
      elite race, but would rather preserve the ambiance that has made it such a great
      experience in the past.

      Concerning Matt and Joe's comments about entry fees: although we could easily
      charge much more and still fill our entry quota, the Board voted not to increase
      fees. In general, we feel that as long as we're covering expenses and have
      enough in the bank to survive another cancelled run, like '95, there is no need
      to increase fees, even to provide additional amenities that are provided in other
      runs, but which few of us feel are needed at Hardrock.

      - Blake

      Blake Wood and Rebecca Clark
      1146 Big Rock Loop
      Los Alamos, NM 87544
      bwood@...
      505-662-4763
    • Keith Knipling
      One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually informative,
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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        One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes
        should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually
        informative, accurate, and beneficial, everything he says is usually said
        very much tongue-in-cheek. Whatever he says, though eccentric as it may
        seem, is usually genuine and never intended to insult anyone.

        Now to comment on what Joe said:

        I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
        younger people of lesser means.

        Right on! I hope 26 on a student budget qualifies. I think the committee
        should accept all applicants outside of 2 standard deviations of the mean
        age, which I'm guessing is 42 or so (i.e. the young guys and the old guys).
        This makes things more interesting than having 120 baby boomers. It also
        guarantees John DeWalt a position at the starting line. If there's any
        crime in all of this selection process, it would be John DeWalt missing an
        opportunity to continue his impressive string of finishes at Hardrock.

        Do I expect anyone to take me seriously? No. Just trying to provide some
        levity to an apparently tense situation. We supposedly run for recreation,
        not for another source of stress in our lives.

        Keith

        Keith Knipling
        Materials Science and Engineering
        213 Holden Hall
        Virginia Tech
        Blacksburg, VA 24061-0237
        Voice: (540) 231-2105
        Fax: (540) 231-8919
        e-mail: kkniplin@...

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:58 PM
        To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

        Matt,
        Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
        fee?
        Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
        and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
        town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
        everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
        have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
        kids.
        Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
        Thanks
        Bozena

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
        To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


        --- clapper@... wrote:
        >
        > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
        > up on this one.
        > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
        > in the same direction
        > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
        > white suburban, middle
        > age elite.

        I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
        plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
        series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
        including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
        easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
        ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
        or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
        see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
        people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
        TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
        what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
        there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
        says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
        reason to run the big ultras?


        =====
        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matt Mahoney
        ... Sure, at Wickham Park :-) ... I think it s good training. I don t know if anyone else has noticed but it seems to me that people that demand the most
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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          --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
          wrote:
          > Matt,
          > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
          > spend, can you pay my entry
          > fee?

          Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

          > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
          > sleeping in one person tent
          > and take baths in cold rivers.

          I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
          else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
          demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
          ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

          > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

          I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
          and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
          the selection process no matter how fair you try to
          make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
          keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
          but then they just have to substitute some other
          arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
          lottery (like Western States), a trail work
          requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
          standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
          "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
          names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
          keep everyone happy.

          The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
          special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
          plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
          have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
          want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


          =====
          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Find a job, post your resume.
          http://careers.yahoo.com
        • jfisher
          Hey Matt (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider apologizing, before you
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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            Hey Matt
            (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge
            You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider
            apologizing,
            before you put your foot into it a little further than you can chew.)
            Your cold logic and rational below do not cover up your total lack of
            understanding, glory grabbing, patting yourself on the back or whatever it is
            that you are doing, and thinking the rest of the HR100 runners are to dumb to
            see through it.

            GET THIS plain and simple, the Hardrock is not about prestige, recognition,
            money, being noble, or whatever else is in your mind. If as you stated so
            clearly below in your reply to Bozena and also in your reply to Joe Clapper,
            in your mind you equate the specialness of the Hardrock with prestige,
            recognition, or whatever else you are projecting onto it -- then you have
            missed the point of the run entirely. It is very sad that even though you
            have been there many years, you could not see through your own little
            attention grabbing world, to see the real beauty of what the Hardrock 100
            really is. 1st as stated in so many of the HR100 documents this event is
            about the runners testing themselves against those incredibly beautiful
            mountains. 2nd It is about the runners period; testing themselves personally,
            reaching past themselves -- out to other runners, camaraderie, seeing the
            inner beauty and strengths of the other runners and helpers on the course.
            (Not just seeing everyone else as more people upon which to inflict yourself
            and as victims upon whom your can expound your personal glories and athletic
            feats) This is a lesson that you would best learn from Joel Zuker. Every
            person associated with the Hardrock felt a great loss with his departure,
            because we were all his friends --- because he saw all of us as friends (not
            competitors, to play one up-man-ship verbal games with). Joel never met a
            stranger, every person he encountered he instantly saw a friend. And he
            equally instantly reached out to be of service, to contribute to the life of
            his newly found friend. That is what the Hardrock is about -- FRIENDS,
            voluntarily contributing to each other, because they are our friends, because
            we care about them. Again it is sad that you have missed one of the real
            beauties of the Hardrock, the other people (because you were so busy looking
            at yourself) The Hardrock is about the joy, happiness, the friendships, the
            love that get created when people come together with respect for each other
            and for the common purpose of running through the mountains together.

            My suggestion to the selection committee of -- Contributing to others (this
            event) because you care about them, is not an arbitrary hurdle. (and it is
            not one that you could probably leap over or crawl under) If all you have to
            contribute is -- raise the price, raise the price, make them pay, make them
            pay -- then you best keep your mouth shut and contribute nothing at all. I
            and many others are embarrassed that you could not even see Bozena's or Joe's
            genuine concern (financially) for themselves and for others, and that
            Bozena's hints were to subtle for you, that you chose instead to add further
            insult to injury. You best go take a bath in an icy river yourself and chill
            out your inflated (recognition and prestige seeking) ego. These things do not
            belong at the Hardrock.

            Joel Zuker, Joe Clapper, Bozena Maslanka, & I may never run Nolan's 14 but
            there are a few things you can still learn from us, actually something you
            are desperately seeking -- a way out of your lonelyness. Please consider what
            was offered here, out of genuine compassion for you.

            Finally Matt, I am sincerely sorry that I had to be the one who had to be so
            blunt and crude to you -- you asked for it many times and others were to
            polite. As said above, I am deeply saddened that you have failed to find one
            of the real goals and beauty of the Hardrock, FRIENDS, connecting sincerely
            and genuinely with the other people. Please come this next year with that
            being your goal. For you it will be harder than running the course -- I
            guarentee you Matt the reward will also be much greater. It's called
            happiness.

            Jim Fisher

            Matt Mahoney wrote:

            > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
            > wrote:
            > > Matt,
            > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
            > > spend, can you pay my entry
            > > fee?
            >
            > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
            >
            > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
            > > sleeping in one person tent
            > > and take baths in cold rivers.
            >
            > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
            > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
            > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
            > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
            >
            > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
            >
            > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
            > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
            > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
            > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
            > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
            > but then they just have to substitute some other
            > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
            > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
            > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
            > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
            > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
            > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
            > keep everyone happy.
            >
            > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
            > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
            > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
            > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
            > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
            >
            > =====
            > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Find a job, post your resume.
            > http://careers.yahoo.com
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
            >
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • laurantodd@pcisys.net
            Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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              Jim and Matt,
              Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
              start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
              I hope Hardrock never ...
              1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
              altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
              Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
              aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
              that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
              Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
              would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
              a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
              handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
              character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
              is still a great race).
              2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
              race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
              race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
              and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
              who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
              But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
              volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
              volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
              3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
              those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
              pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
              challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
              ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
              Todd Burgess


              > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
              > wrote:
              > > Matt,
              > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
              > > spend, can you pay my entry
              > > fee?
              >
              > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
              >
              > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
              > > sleeping in one person tent
              > > and take baths in cold rivers.
              >
              > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
              > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
              > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
              > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
              >
              > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
              >
              > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
              > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
              > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
              > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
              > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
              > but then they just have to substitute some other
              > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
              > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
              > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
              > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
              > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
              > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
              > keep everyone happy.
              >
              > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
              > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
              > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
              > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
              > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
              >
              >
              > =====
              > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Find a job, post your resume.
              > http://careers.yahoo.com
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


              ---------------------------------------------
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            • Dick Huff
              Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                Hello everyone!

                I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

                The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                year.

                I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                Hardrock will always be there.

                It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

                Thanks everyone.

                Dick Huff













                - Original Message -----
                From: <laurantodd@...>
                To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                > Jim and Matt,
                > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                > I hope Hardrock never ...
                > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                high-
                > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                appealing
                > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                know
                > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                spot. If
                > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                which has
                > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                and can
                > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                Leadville
                > is still a great race).
                > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                this
                > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                your
                > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                low-key
                > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                people
                > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                with.
                > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                course,
                > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                For
                > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                members who
                > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                the
                > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                an
                > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                > Todd Burgess
                >
                >
                > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > Matt,
                > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                > > > fee?
                > >
                > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                > >
                > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                > > > sleeping in one person tent
                > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                > >
                > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                > >
                > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                > >
                > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                > > keep everyone happy.
                > >
                > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                > >
                > >
                > > =====
                > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > Find a job, post your resume.
                > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                > >
                > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                > >
                > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------------------
                > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
                > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
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                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Herr, Dennis B.
                Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                  Matt wrote:

                  You must choose
                  names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                  keep everyone happy.

                  How about the old dart board?

                  Dennis

                  -
                • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
                  Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                    Matt,
                    I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                    person.
                    What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                    Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                    too late.
                    All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                    pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                    four years.
                    Stop making ass of yourself.
                    Bozena

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                    To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                    --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                    wrote:
                    > Matt,
                    > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                    > spend, can you pay my entry
                    > fee?

                    Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                    > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                    > sleeping in one person tent
                    > and take baths in cold rivers.

                    I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                    else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                    demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                    ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                    > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                    I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                    and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                    the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                    make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                    keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                    but then they just have to substitute some other
                    arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                    lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                    requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                    standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                    "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                    names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                    keep everyone happy.

                    The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                    special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                    plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                    have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                    want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                    =====
                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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                  • Herr, Dennis B.
                    Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                      Come on people; get a sense of humor!

                      Get a life outside of running.

                      What happened to the spirit of charity
                      and unity that has been ballyhooed since
                      9-11?

                      Dennis Herr

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
                      To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                      Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                      Matt,
                      I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                      person.
                      What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                      Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                      too late.
                      All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                      pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                      four years.
                      Stop making ass of yourself.
                      Bozena

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                      --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                      wrote:
                      > Matt,
                      > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                      > spend, can you pay my entry
                      > fee?

                      Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                      > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                      > sleeping in one person tent
                      > and take baths in cold rivers.

                      I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                      else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                      demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                      ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                      > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                      I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                      and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                      the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                      make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                      keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                      but then they just have to substitute some other
                      arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                      lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                      requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                      standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                      "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                      names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                      keep everyone happy.

                      The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                      special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                      plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                      have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                      want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                      =====
                      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                      __________________________________________________
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                      Find a job, post your resume.
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                    • Matt Mahoney
                      Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                        Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                        guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                        stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                        cheap.

                        I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                        What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                        way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                        last names starting with A through L run next year and
                        M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                        is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                        Somebody isn't going to like it.

                        I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                        friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                        =====
                        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                        __________________________________________________
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                      • Stevan Pattillo
                        Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                          Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                          discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                          Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                          be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                          us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                          what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                          other's company at Hardrock.
                          As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                          entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                          what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                          comunity based mental health program.
                        • dale garland
                          Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                            Hi Everyone
                            Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                            couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                            in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                            people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                            group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                            know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                            did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                            that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                            The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                            than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                            imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                            when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                            event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                            themselves.
                            This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                            "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                            who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                            who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                            than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                            all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                            answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                            look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                            we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                            opinion.
                            Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                            involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                            July.
                            Dale Garland
                            RD, HRH


                            Dick Huff wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello everyone!
                            >
                            > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                            > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                            > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                            > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                            > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                            > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                            >
                            > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                            > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                            > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                            > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                            > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                            > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                            > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                            > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                            > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                            > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                            > year.
                            >
                            > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                            > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                            > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                            > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                            > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                            > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                            > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                            > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                            > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                            > Hardrock will always be there.
                            >
                            > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                            > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                            > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                            > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                            >
                            > Thanks everyone.
                            >
                            > Dick Huff
                            >
                            > - Original Message -----
                            > From: <laurantodd@...>
                            > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                            > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                            >
                            > > Jim and Matt,
                            > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                            > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                            > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                            > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                            > high-
                            > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                            > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                            > appealing
                            > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                            > know
                            > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                            > spot. If
                            > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                            > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                            > which has
                            > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                            > and can
                            > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                            > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                            > Leadville
                            > > is still a great race).
                            > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                            > this
                            > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                            > your
                            > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                            > low-key
                            > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                            > people
                            > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                            > with.
                            > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                            > course,
                            > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                            > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                            > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                            > For
                            > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                            > members who
                            > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                            > the
                            > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                            > an
                            > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                            > > Todd Burgess
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > Matt,
                            > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                            > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                            > > > > fee?
                            > > >
                            > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                            > > >
                            > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                            > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                            > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                            > > >
                            > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                            > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                            > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                            > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                            > > >
                            > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                            > > >
                            > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                            > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                            > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                            > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                            > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                            > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                            > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                            > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                            > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                            > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                            > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                            > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                            > > > keep everyone happy.
                            > > >
                            > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                            > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                            > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                            > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                            > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > =====
                            > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                            > > >
                            > > > __________________________________________________
                            > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > > > Find a job, post your resume.
                            > > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                            > > >
                            > > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                            > > >
                            > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
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                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                          • Herr, Dennis B.
                            Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                              Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                              of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                              the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                              and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                              In other words, no more pampering. That should
                              cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                              selection process. It should make the committee's
                              job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                              post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                              to endorse this format.

                              dennis
                            • Matt Mahoney
                              ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                                > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                > selection process. It should make the committee's
                                > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                > to endorse this format.

                                Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                                starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                                your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                                who are bored with the current course or don't think
                                it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                                Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                                =====
                                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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                              • Stevan Pattillo
                                But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                  But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                                  Steve
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