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Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • Matt Mahoney
    ... I thought we already did that. In any case, there s plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR series, Barkley, Nolan s 14, and lots of fat ass
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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      --- clapper@... wrote:
      >
      > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
      > up on this one.
      > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
      > in the same direction
      > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
      > white suburban, middle
      > age elite.

      I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
      plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
      series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
      including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
      easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
      ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
      or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
      see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
      people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
      TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
      what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
      there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
      says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
      reason to run the big ultras?


      =====
      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

      __________________________________________________
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    • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
      Matt, Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry fee? Please don t forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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        Matt,
        Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
        fee?
        Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
        and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
        town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
        everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
        have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
        kids.
        Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
        Thanks
        Bozena

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
        To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


        --- clapper@... wrote:
        >
        > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
        > up on this one.
        > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
        > in the same direction
        > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
        > white suburban, middle
        > age elite.

        I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
        plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
        series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
        including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
        easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
        ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
        or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
        see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
        people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
        TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
        what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
        there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
        says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
        reason to run the big ultras?


        =====
        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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      • Rebecca Clark and Blake Wood
        ... I don t have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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          jfisher wrote:

          > Thus my suggestion; Give some rating or credit in the selection process to
          > those applicants who have given service to and benefitted the run. ...

          I don't have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a
          limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
          extraordinary service to Hardrock. This doesn't quite address Jim's suggestion,
          which seems aimed more at the worker bees than at those who fill some specific
          role (the canonical example being Lisa Richardson in 2001). However, a large
          number of slots - about half in fact - are doled out at the selection committee's
          discretion. You should rest assured that the kind of service Jim refers to will
          play a large role in how these slots are awarded. I agree with Jim that one of
          the things that makes Hardrock what it is are the people who come back year after
          year to help mark the course, work an aid station, pace another runner, etc. I
          agree also that these people should be encouraged and rewarded for their
          dedication. The Hardrock Board is not at all interested in making Hardrock an
          elite race, but would rather preserve the ambiance that has made it such a great
          experience in the past.

          Concerning Matt and Joe's comments about entry fees: although we could easily
          charge much more and still fill our entry quota, the Board voted not to increase
          fees. In general, we feel that as long as we're covering expenses and have
          enough in the bank to survive another cancelled run, like '95, there is no need
          to increase fees, even to provide additional amenities that are provided in other
          runs, but which few of us feel are needed at Hardrock.

          - Blake

          Blake Wood and Rebecca Clark
          1146 Big Rock Loop
          Los Alamos, NM 87544
          bwood@...
          505-662-4763
        • Keith Knipling
          One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually informative,
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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            One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes
            should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually
            informative, accurate, and beneficial, everything he says is usually said
            very much tongue-in-cheek. Whatever he says, though eccentric as it may
            seem, is usually genuine and never intended to insult anyone.

            Now to comment on what Joe said:

            I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
            younger people of lesser means.

            Right on! I hope 26 on a student budget qualifies. I think the committee
            should accept all applicants outside of 2 standard deviations of the mean
            age, which I'm guessing is 42 or so (i.e. the young guys and the old guys).
            This makes things more interesting than having 120 baby boomers. It also
            guarantees John DeWalt a position at the starting line. If there's any
            crime in all of this selection process, it would be John DeWalt missing an
            opportunity to continue his impressive string of finishes at Hardrock.

            Do I expect anyone to take me seriously? No. Just trying to provide some
            levity to an apparently tense situation. We supposedly run for recreation,
            not for another source of stress in our lives.

            Keith

            Keith Knipling
            Materials Science and Engineering
            213 Holden Hall
            Virginia Tech
            Blacksburg, VA 24061-0237
            Voice: (540) 231-2105
            Fax: (540) 231-8919
            e-mail: kkniplin@...

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:58 PM
            To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

            Matt,
            Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
            fee?
            Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
            and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
            town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
            everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
            have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
            kids.
            Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
            Thanks
            Bozena

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


            --- clapper@... wrote:
            >
            > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
            > up on this one.
            > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
            > in the same direction
            > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
            > white suburban, middle
            > age elite.

            I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
            plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
            series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
            including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
            easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
            ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
            or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
            see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
            people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
            TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
            what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
            there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
            says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
            reason to run the big ultras?


            =====
            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

            __________________________________________________
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matt Mahoney
            ... Sure, at Wickham Park :-) ... I think it s good training. I don t know if anyone else has noticed but it seems to me that people that demand the most
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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              --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
              wrote:
              > Matt,
              > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
              > spend, can you pay my entry
              > fee?

              Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

              > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
              > sleeping in one person tent
              > and take baths in cold rivers.

              I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
              else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
              demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
              ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

              > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

              I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
              and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
              the selection process no matter how fair you try to
              make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
              keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
              but then they just have to substitute some other
              arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
              lottery (like Western States), a trail work
              requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
              standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
              "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
              names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
              keep everyone happy.

              The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
              special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
              plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
              have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
              want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


              =====
              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Find a job, post your resume.
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            • jfisher
              Hey Matt (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider apologizing, before you
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                Hey Matt
                (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge
                You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider
                apologizing,
                before you put your foot into it a little further than you can chew.)
                Your cold logic and rational below do not cover up your total lack of
                understanding, glory grabbing, patting yourself on the back or whatever it is
                that you are doing, and thinking the rest of the HR100 runners are to dumb to
                see through it.

                GET THIS plain and simple, the Hardrock is not about prestige, recognition,
                money, being noble, or whatever else is in your mind. If as you stated so
                clearly below in your reply to Bozena and also in your reply to Joe Clapper,
                in your mind you equate the specialness of the Hardrock with prestige,
                recognition, or whatever else you are projecting onto it -- then you have
                missed the point of the run entirely. It is very sad that even though you
                have been there many years, you could not see through your own little
                attention grabbing world, to see the real beauty of what the Hardrock 100
                really is. 1st as stated in so many of the HR100 documents this event is
                about the runners testing themselves against those incredibly beautiful
                mountains. 2nd It is about the runners period; testing themselves personally,
                reaching past themselves -- out to other runners, camaraderie, seeing the
                inner beauty and strengths of the other runners and helpers on the course.
                (Not just seeing everyone else as more people upon which to inflict yourself
                and as victims upon whom your can expound your personal glories and athletic
                feats) This is a lesson that you would best learn from Joel Zuker. Every
                person associated with the Hardrock felt a great loss with his departure,
                because we were all his friends --- because he saw all of us as friends (not
                competitors, to play one up-man-ship verbal games with). Joel never met a
                stranger, every person he encountered he instantly saw a friend. And he
                equally instantly reached out to be of service, to contribute to the life of
                his newly found friend. That is what the Hardrock is about -- FRIENDS,
                voluntarily contributing to each other, because they are our friends, because
                we care about them. Again it is sad that you have missed one of the real
                beauties of the Hardrock, the other people (because you were so busy looking
                at yourself) The Hardrock is about the joy, happiness, the friendships, the
                love that get created when people come together with respect for each other
                and for the common purpose of running through the mountains together.

                My suggestion to the selection committee of -- Contributing to others (this
                event) because you care about them, is not an arbitrary hurdle. (and it is
                not one that you could probably leap over or crawl under) If all you have to
                contribute is -- raise the price, raise the price, make them pay, make them
                pay -- then you best keep your mouth shut and contribute nothing at all. I
                and many others are embarrassed that you could not even see Bozena's or Joe's
                genuine concern (financially) for themselves and for others, and that
                Bozena's hints were to subtle for you, that you chose instead to add further
                insult to injury. You best go take a bath in an icy river yourself and chill
                out your inflated (recognition and prestige seeking) ego. These things do not
                belong at the Hardrock.

                Joel Zuker, Joe Clapper, Bozena Maslanka, & I may never run Nolan's 14 but
                there are a few things you can still learn from us, actually something you
                are desperately seeking -- a way out of your lonelyness. Please consider what
                was offered here, out of genuine compassion for you.

                Finally Matt, I am sincerely sorry that I had to be the one who had to be so
                blunt and crude to you -- you asked for it many times and others were to
                polite. As said above, I am deeply saddened that you have failed to find one
                of the real goals and beauty of the Hardrock, FRIENDS, connecting sincerely
                and genuinely with the other people. Please come this next year with that
                being your goal. For you it will be harder than running the course -- I
                guarentee you Matt the reward will also be much greater. It's called
                happiness.

                Jim Fisher

                Matt Mahoney wrote:

                > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                > wrote:
                > > Matt,
                > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                > > spend, can you pay my entry
                > > fee?
                >
                > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                >
                > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                > > sleeping in one person tent
                > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                >
                > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                >
                > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                >
                > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                > but then they just have to substitute some other
                > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                > keep everyone happy.
                >
                > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                >
                > =====
                > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Find a job, post your resume.
                > http://careers.yahoo.com
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                >
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • laurantodd@pcisys.net
                Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                  Jim and Matt,
                  Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                  start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                  I hope Hardrock never ...
                  1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
                  altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                  Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
                  aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
                  that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
                  Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                  would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
                  a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
                  handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                  character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
                  is still a great race).
                  2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
                  race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
                  race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
                  and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
                  who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
                  But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
                  volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                  volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                  3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
                  those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
                  pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
                  challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
                  ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                  Todd Burgess


                  > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Matt,
                  > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                  > > spend, can you pay my entry
                  > > fee?
                  >
                  > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                  >
                  > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                  > > sleeping in one person tent
                  > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                  >
                  > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                  > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                  > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                  > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                  >
                  > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                  >
                  > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                  > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                  > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                  > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                  > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                  > but then they just have to substitute some other
                  > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                  > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                  > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                  > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                  > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                  > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                  > keep everyone happy.
                  >
                  > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                  > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                  > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                  > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                  > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                  >
                  >
                  > =====
                  > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Find a job, post your resume.
                  > http://careers.yahoo.com
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


                  ---------------------------------------------
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                  http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
                • Dick Huff
                  Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                    Hello everyone!

                    I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                    year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                    included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                    long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                    Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                    you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

                    The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                    people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                    Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                    requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                    Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                    will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                    his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                    you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                    work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                    excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                    year.

                    I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                    said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                    such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                    nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                    the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                    year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                    for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                    many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                    there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                    Hardrock will always be there.

                    It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                    Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                    expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                    all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

                    Thanks everyone.

                    Dick Huff













                    - Original Message -----
                    From: <laurantodd@...>
                    To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                    Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                    > Jim and Matt,
                    > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                    > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                    > I hope Hardrock never ...
                    > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                    high-
                    > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                    > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                    appealing
                    > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                    know
                    > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                    spot. If
                    > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                    > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                    which has
                    > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                    and can
                    > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                    > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                    Leadville
                    > is still a great race).
                    > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                    this
                    > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                    your
                    > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                    low-key
                    > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                    people
                    > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                    with.
                    > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                    course,
                    > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                    > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                    > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                    For
                    > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                    members who
                    > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                    the
                    > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                    an
                    > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                    > Todd Burgess
                    >
                    >
                    > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > Matt,
                    > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                    > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                    > > > fee?
                    > >
                    > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                    > >
                    > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                    > > > sleeping in one person tent
                    > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                    > >
                    > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                    > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                    > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                    > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                    > >
                    > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                    > >
                    > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                    > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                    > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                    > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                    > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                    > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                    > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                    > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                    > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                    > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                    > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                    > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                    > > keep everyone happy.
                    > >
                    > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                    > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                    > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                    > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                    > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > =====
                    > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > Find a job, post your resume.
                    > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                    > >
                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
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                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Herr, Dennis B.
                    Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                      Matt wrote:

                      You must choose
                      names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                      keep everyone happy.

                      How about the old dart board?

                      Dennis

                      -
                    • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
                      Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                        Matt,
                        I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                        person.
                        What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                        Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                        too late.
                        All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                        pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                        four years.
                        Stop making ass of yourself.
                        Bozena

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                        To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                        --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                        wrote:
                        > Matt,
                        > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                        > spend, can you pay my entry
                        > fee?

                        Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                        > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                        > sleeping in one person tent
                        > and take baths in cold rivers.

                        I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                        else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                        demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                        ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                        > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                        I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                        and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                        the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                        make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                        keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                        but then they just have to substitute some other
                        arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                        lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                        requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                        standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                        "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                        names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                        keep everyone happy.

                        The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                        special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                        plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                        have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                        want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                        =====
                        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Find a job, post your resume.
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                      • Herr, Dennis B.
                        Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                          Come on people; get a sense of humor!

                          Get a life outside of running.

                          What happened to the spirit of charity
                          and unity that has been ballyhooed since
                          9-11?

                          Dennis Herr

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
                          To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                          Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                          Matt,
                          I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                          person.
                          What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                          Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                          too late.
                          All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                          pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                          four years.
                          Stop making ass of yourself.
                          Bozena

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                          To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                          --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                          wrote:
                          > Matt,
                          > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                          > spend, can you pay my entry
                          > fee?

                          Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                          > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                          > sleeping in one person tent
                          > and take baths in cold rivers.

                          I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                          else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                          demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                          ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                          > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                          I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                          and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                          the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                          make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                          keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                          but then they just have to substitute some other
                          arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                          lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                          requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                          standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                          "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                          names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                          keep everyone happy.

                          The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                          special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                          plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                          have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                          want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                          =====
                          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Find a job, post your resume.
                          http://careers.yahoo.com

                          To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                          To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

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                        • Matt Mahoney
                          Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                            Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                            guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                            stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                            cheap.

                            I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                            What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                            way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                            last names starting with A through L run next year and
                            M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                            is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                            Somebody isn't going to like it.

                            I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                            friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                            =====
                            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
                            http://personals.yahoo.com
                          • Stevan Pattillo
                            Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                              Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                              discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                              Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                              be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                              us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                              what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                              other's company at Hardrock.
                              As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                              entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                              what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                              comunity based mental health program.
                            • dale garland
                              Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                Hi Everyone
                                Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                                couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                                in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                                people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                                group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                                know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                                did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                                that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                                The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                                than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                                imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                                when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                                event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                                themselves.
                                This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                                "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                                who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                                who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                                than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                                all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                                answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                                look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                                we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                                opinion.
                                Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                                involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                                July.
                                Dale Garland
                                RD, HRH


                                Dick Huff wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello everyone!
                                >
                                > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                                > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                                > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                                > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                                > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                                > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                                >
                                > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                                > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                                > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                                > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                                > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                                > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                                > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                                > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                                > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                                > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                                > year.
                                >
                                > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                                > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                                > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                                > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                                > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                                > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                                > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                                > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                                > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                                > Hardrock will always be there.
                                >
                                > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                                > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                                > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                                > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                                >
                                > Thanks everyone.
                                >
                                > Dick Huff
                                >
                                > - Original Message -----
                                > From: <laurantodd@...>
                                > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                                >
                                > > Jim and Matt,
                                > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                                > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                                > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                                > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                                > high-
                                > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                                > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                                > appealing
                                > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                                > know
                                > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                                > spot. If
                                > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                                > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                                > which has
                                > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                                > and can
                                > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                                > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                                > Leadville
                                > > is still a great race).
                                > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                                > this
                                > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                                > your
                                > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                                > low-key
                                > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                                > people
                                > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                                > with.
                                > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                                > course,
                                > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                                > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                                > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                                > For
                                > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                                > members who
                                > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                                > the
                                > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                                > an
                                > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                                > > Todd Burgess
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > Matt,
                                > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                                > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                                > > > > fee?
                                > > >
                                > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                                > > >
                                > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                                > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                                > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                                > > >
                                > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                                > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                                > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                                > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                                > > >
                                > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                                > > >
                                > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                                > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                                > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                                > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                                > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                                > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                                > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                                > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                                > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                                > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                                > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                                > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                                > > > keep everyone happy.
                                > > >
                                > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                                > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                                > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                                > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                                > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > =====
                                > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                                > > >
                                > > > __________________________________________________
                                > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > > > Find a job, post your resume.
                                > > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                                > > >
                                > > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                                > > >
                                > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
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                              • Herr, Dennis B.
                                Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                  Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                  of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                  the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                  and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                  In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                  cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                  selection process. It should make the committee's
                                  job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                  post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                  to endorse this format.

                                  dennis
                                • Matt Mahoney
                                  ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                    --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                                    > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                    > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                    > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                    > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                    > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                    > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                    > selection process. It should make the committee's
                                    > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                    > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                    > to endorse this format.

                                    Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                                    starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                                    your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                    drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                                    who are bored with the current course or don't think
                                    it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                                    Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                                    =====
                                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                                    __________________________________________________
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                                    Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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                                  • Stevan Pattillo
                                    But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                      But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                                      Steve
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.