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Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • clapper@american.edu
    I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak up on this one. Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport in the same direction as skiing and
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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      I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak up on this one.
      Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport in the same direction
      as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class, white suburban, middle
      age elite. I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
      younger people of lesser means. When I first started in this sport I had
      to limit my competition because I could not afford races; even if I sleep
      in my car and brought my own food. I think for a lot of young folks a
      $100+ entry fee is already prohibitive. I propose that more race directors
      do what Bull Run Run does and offer free entry based on financial need.

      Joe Clapper






      Matt Mahoney <matmahoney@...> on 11/11/2001 02:21:29 PM

      Please respond to hr100@yahoogroups.com

      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
      cc:
      Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

      I think the best way to limit entries to Hardrock is
      to raise the entry fee and let the market take care of
      it. A few years ago I took a survey to see how much
      people would pay to run Western States if they could
      be guaranteed entry. The answer was that about half
      would be willing to pay $300, which was about twice
      the entry fee at the time, when the acceptance rate
      was 50%. Considering inflation and all the publicity
      we got on TV, you probably need to charge about
      $400-$500.

      Of course, volunteers should get guaranteed, free
      entry as a reward. Don't forget that in 1997 I spent
      14 hours with Don Winkley and Hal Winton pulling
      markers from Maggie Gulch to Handies Peak on the
      Monday after the race. I also went on several course
      marking hikes, but these don't count since it's just
      Charlie Thorn marking the course and 20 people tagging
      along.

      I also think race directors should get free entry.
      I'll give all Hardrock staff and volunteers free entry
      to the Wickham Park 200.

      You could also take the Leadville approach and accept
      500 runners with no qualifications. This really isn't
      so bad, since most runners will be dropping out at
      Arrastra Gulch when they realize they have to get
      their feet wet...


      =====
      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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    • Matt Mahoney
      ... I thought we already did that. In any case, there s plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR series, Barkley, Nolan s 14, and lots of fat ass
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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        --- clapper@... wrote:
        >
        > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
        > up on this one.
        > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
        > in the same direction
        > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
        > white suburban, middle
        > age elite.

        I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
        plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
        series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
        including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
        easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
        ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
        or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
        see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
        people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
        TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
        what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
        there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
        says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
        reason to run the big ultras?


        =====
        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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      • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
        Matt, Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry fee? Please don t forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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          Matt,
          Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
          fee?
          Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
          and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
          town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
          everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
          have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
          kids.
          Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
          Thanks
          Bozena

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
          To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


          --- clapper@... wrote:
          >
          > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
          > up on this one.
          > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
          > in the same direction
          > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
          > white suburban, middle
          > age elite.

          I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
          plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
          series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
          including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
          easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
          ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
          or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
          see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
          people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
          TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
          what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
          there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
          says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
          reason to run the big ultras?


          =====
          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

          __________________________________________________
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        • Rebecca Clark and Blake Wood
          ... I don t have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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            jfisher wrote:

            > Thus my suggestion; Give some rating or credit in the selection process to
            > those applicants who have given service to and benefitted the run. ...

            I don't have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a
            limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
            extraordinary service to Hardrock. This doesn't quite address Jim's suggestion,
            which seems aimed more at the worker bees than at those who fill some specific
            role (the canonical example being Lisa Richardson in 2001). However, a large
            number of slots - about half in fact - are doled out at the selection committee's
            discretion. You should rest assured that the kind of service Jim refers to will
            play a large role in how these slots are awarded. I agree with Jim that one of
            the things that makes Hardrock what it is are the people who come back year after
            year to help mark the course, work an aid station, pace another runner, etc. I
            agree also that these people should be encouraged and rewarded for their
            dedication. The Hardrock Board is not at all interested in making Hardrock an
            elite race, but would rather preserve the ambiance that has made it such a great
            experience in the past.

            Concerning Matt and Joe's comments about entry fees: although we could easily
            charge much more and still fill our entry quota, the Board voted not to increase
            fees. In general, we feel that as long as we're covering expenses and have
            enough in the bank to survive another cancelled run, like '95, there is no need
            to increase fees, even to provide additional amenities that are provided in other
            runs, but which few of us feel are needed at Hardrock.

            - Blake

            Blake Wood and Rebecca Clark
            1146 Big Rock Loop
            Los Alamos, NM 87544
            bwood@...
            505-662-4763
          • Keith Knipling
            One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually informative,
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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              One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes
              should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually
              informative, accurate, and beneficial, everything he says is usually said
              very much tongue-in-cheek. Whatever he says, though eccentric as it may
              seem, is usually genuine and never intended to insult anyone.

              Now to comment on what Joe said:

              I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
              younger people of lesser means.

              Right on! I hope 26 on a student budget qualifies. I think the committee
              should accept all applicants outside of 2 standard deviations of the mean
              age, which I'm guessing is 42 or so (i.e. the young guys and the old guys).
              This makes things more interesting than having 120 baby boomers. It also
              guarantees John DeWalt a position at the starting line. If there's any
              crime in all of this selection process, it would be John DeWalt missing an
              opportunity to continue his impressive string of finishes at Hardrock.

              Do I expect anyone to take me seriously? No. Just trying to provide some
              levity to an apparently tense situation. We supposedly run for recreation,
              not for another source of stress in our lives.

              Keith

              Keith Knipling
              Materials Science and Engineering
              213 Holden Hall
              Virginia Tech
              Blacksburg, VA 24061-0237
              Voice: (540) 231-2105
              Fax: (540) 231-8919
              e-mail: kkniplin@...

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:58 PM
              To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
              Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

              Matt,
              Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
              fee?
              Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
              and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
              town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
              everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
              have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
              kids.
              Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
              Thanks
              Bozena

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


              --- clapper@... wrote:
              >
              > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
              > up on this one.
              > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
              > in the same direction
              > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
              > white suburban, middle
              > age elite.

              I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
              plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
              series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
              including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
              easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
              ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
              or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
              see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
              people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
              TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
              what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
              there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
              says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
              reason to run the big ultras?


              =====
              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

              __________________________________________________
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              Find a job, post your resume.
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Matt Mahoney
              ... Sure, at Wickham Park :-) ... I think it s good training. I don t know if anyone else has noticed but it seems to me that people that demand the most
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                wrote:
                > Matt,
                > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                > spend, can you pay my entry
                > fee?

                Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                > sleeping in one person tent
                > and take baths in cold rivers.

                I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                but then they just have to substitute some other
                arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                keep everyone happy.

                The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                =====
                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Find a job, post your resume.
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              • jfisher
                Hey Matt (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider apologizing, before you
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                  Hey Matt
                  (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge
                  You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider
                  apologizing,
                  before you put your foot into it a little further than you can chew.)
                  Your cold logic and rational below do not cover up your total lack of
                  understanding, glory grabbing, patting yourself on the back or whatever it is
                  that you are doing, and thinking the rest of the HR100 runners are to dumb to
                  see through it.

                  GET THIS plain and simple, the Hardrock is not about prestige, recognition,
                  money, being noble, or whatever else is in your mind. If as you stated so
                  clearly below in your reply to Bozena and also in your reply to Joe Clapper,
                  in your mind you equate the specialness of the Hardrock with prestige,
                  recognition, or whatever else you are projecting onto it -- then you have
                  missed the point of the run entirely. It is very sad that even though you
                  have been there many years, you could not see through your own little
                  attention grabbing world, to see the real beauty of what the Hardrock 100
                  really is. 1st as stated in so many of the HR100 documents this event is
                  about the runners testing themselves against those incredibly beautiful
                  mountains. 2nd It is about the runners period; testing themselves personally,
                  reaching past themselves -- out to other runners, camaraderie, seeing the
                  inner beauty and strengths of the other runners and helpers on the course.
                  (Not just seeing everyone else as more people upon which to inflict yourself
                  and as victims upon whom your can expound your personal glories and athletic
                  feats) This is a lesson that you would best learn from Joel Zuker. Every
                  person associated with the Hardrock felt a great loss with his departure,
                  because we were all his friends --- because he saw all of us as friends (not
                  competitors, to play one up-man-ship verbal games with). Joel never met a
                  stranger, every person he encountered he instantly saw a friend. And he
                  equally instantly reached out to be of service, to contribute to the life of
                  his newly found friend. That is what the Hardrock is about -- FRIENDS,
                  voluntarily contributing to each other, because they are our friends, because
                  we care about them. Again it is sad that you have missed one of the real
                  beauties of the Hardrock, the other people (because you were so busy looking
                  at yourself) The Hardrock is about the joy, happiness, the friendships, the
                  love that get created when people come together with respect for each other
                  and for the common purpose of running through the mountains together.

                  My suggestion to the selection committee of -- Contributing to others (this
                  event) because you care about them, is not an arbitrary hurdle. (and it is
                  not one that you could probably leap over or crawl under) If all you have to
                  contribute is -- raise the price, raise the price, make them pay, make them
                  pay -- then you best keep your mouth shut and contribute nothing at all. I
                  and many others are embarrassed that you could not even see Bozena's or Joe's
                  genuine concern (financially) for themselves and for others, and that
                  Bozena's hints were to subtle for you, that you chose instead to add further
                  insult to injury. You best go take a bath in an icy river yourself and chill
                  out your inflated (recognition and prestige seeking) ego. These things do not
                  belong at the Hardrock.

                  Joel Zuker, Joe Clapper, Bozena Maslanka, & I may never run Nolan's 14 but
                  there are a few things you can still learn from us, actually something you
                  are desperately seeking -- a way out of your lonelyness. Please consider what
                  was offered here, out of genuine compassion for you.

                  Finally Matt, I am sincerely sorry that I had to be the one who had to be so
                  blunt and crude to you -- you asked for it many times and others were to
                  polite. As said above, I am deeply saddened that you have failed to find one
                  of the real goals and beauty of the Hardrock, FRIENDS, connecting sincerely
                  and genuinely with the other people. Please come this next year with that
                  being your goal. For you it will be harder than running the course -- I
                  guarentee you Matt the reward will also be much greater. It's called
                  happiness.

                  Jim Fisher

                  Matt Mahoney wrote:

                  > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Matt,
                  > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                  > > spend, can you pay my entry
                  > > fee?
                  >
                  > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                  >
                  > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                  > > sleeping in one person tent
                  > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                  >
                  > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                  > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                  > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                  > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                  >
                  > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                  >
                  > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                  > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                  > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                  > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                  > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                  > but then they just have to substitute some other
                  > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                  > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                  > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                  > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                  > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                  > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                  > keep everyone happy.
                  >
                  > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                  > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                  > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                  > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                  > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                  >
                  > =====
                  > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Find a job, post your resume.
                  > http://careers.yahoo.com
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • laurantodd@pcisys.net
                  Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                    Jim and Matt,
                    Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                    start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                    I hope Hardrock never ...
                    1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
                    altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                    Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
                    aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
                    that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
                    Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                    would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
                    a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
                    handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                    character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
                    is still a great race).
                    2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
                    race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
                    race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
                    and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
                    who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
                    But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
                    volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                    volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                    3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
                    those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
                    pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
                    challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
                    ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                    Todd Burgess


                    > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > Matt,
                    > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                    > > spend, can you pay my entry
                    > > fee?
                    >
                    > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                    >
                    > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                    > > sleeping in one person tent
                    > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                    >
                    > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                    > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                    > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                    > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                    >
                    > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                    >
                    > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                    > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                    > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                    > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                    > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                    > but then they just have to substitute some other
                    > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                    > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                    > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                    > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                    > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                    > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                    > keep everyone happy.
                    >
                    > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                    > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                    > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                    > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                    > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                    >
                    >
                    > =====
                    > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Find a job, post your resume.
                    > http://careers.yahoo.com
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >


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                  • Dick Huff
                    Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                      Hello everyone!

                      I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                      year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                      included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                      long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                      Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                      you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

                      The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                      people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                      Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                      requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                      Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                      will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                      his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                      you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                      work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                      excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                      year.

                      I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                      said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                      such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                      nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                      the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                      year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                      for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                      many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                      there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                      Hardrock will always be there.

                      It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                      Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                      expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                      all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

                      Thanks everyone.

                      Dick Huff













                      - Original Message -----
                      From: <laurantodd@...>
                      To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                      Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                      > Jim and Matt,
                      > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                      > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                      > I hope Hardrock never ...
                      > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                      high-
                      > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                      > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                      appealing
                      > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                      know
                      > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                      spot. If
                      > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                      > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                      which has
                      > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                      and can
                      > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                      > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                      Leadville
                      > is still a great race).
                      > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                      this
                      > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                      your
                      > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                      low-key
                      > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                      people
                      > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                      with.
                      > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                      course,
                      > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                      > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                      > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                      For
                      > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                      members who
                      > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                      the
                      > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                      an
                      > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                      > Todd Burgess
                      >
                      >
                      > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > Matt,
                      > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                      > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                      > > > fee?
                      > >
                      > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                      > >
                      > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                      > > > sleeping in one person tent
                      > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                      > >
                      > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                      > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                      > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                      > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                      > >
                      > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                      > >
                      > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                      > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                      > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                      > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                      > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                      > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                      > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                      > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                      > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                      > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                      > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                      > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                      > > keep everyone happy.
                      > >
                      > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                      > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                      > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                      > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                      > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > =====
                      > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > Find a job, post your resume.
                      > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                      > >
                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                      > >
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                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Herr, Dennis B.
                      Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                        Matt wrote:

                        You must choose
                        names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                        keep everyone happy.

                        How about the old dart board?

                        Dennis

                        -
                      • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
                        Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                          Matt,
                          I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                          person.
                          What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                          Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                          too late.
                          All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                          pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                          four years.
                          Stop making ass of yourself.
                          Bozena

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                          To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                          --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                          wrote:
                          > Matt,
                          > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                          > spend, can you pay my entry
                          > fee?

                          Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                          > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                          > sleeping in one person tent
                          > and take baths in cold rivers.

                          I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                          else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                          demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                          ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                          > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                          I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                          and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                          the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                          make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                          keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                          but then they just have to substitute some other
                          arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                          lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                          requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                          standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                          "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                          names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                          keep everyone happy.

                          The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                          special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                          plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                          have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                          want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                          =====
                          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                          __________________________________________________
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                          Find a job, post your resume.
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                        • Herr, Dennis B.
                          Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                            Come on people; get a sense of humor!

                            Get a life outside of running.

                            What happened to the spirit of charity
                            and unity that has been ballyhooed since
                            9-11?

                            Dennis Herr

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
                            To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                            Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                            Matt,
                            I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                            person.
                            What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                            Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                            too late.
                            All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                            pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                            four years.
                            Stop making ass of yourself.
                            Bozena

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                            --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                            wrote:
                            > Matt,
                            > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                            > spend, can you pay my entry
                            > fee?

                            Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                            > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                            > sleeping in one person tent
                            > and take baths in cold rivers.

                            I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                            else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                            demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                            ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                            > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                            I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                            and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                            the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                            make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                            keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                            but then they just have to substitute some other
                            arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                            lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                            requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                            standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                            "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                            names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                            keep everyone happy.

                            The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                            special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                            plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                            have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                            want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                            =====
                            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Find a job, post your resume.
                            http://careers.yahoo.com

                            To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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                          • Matt Mahoney
                            Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                              Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                              guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                              stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                              cheap.

                              I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                              What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                              way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                              last names starting with A through L run next year and
                              M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                              is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                              Somebody isn't going to like it.

                              I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                              friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                              =====
                              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                              __________________________________________________
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                              Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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                            • Stevan Pattillo
                              Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                                discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                                Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                                be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                                us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                                what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                                other's company at Hardrock.
                                As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                                entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                                what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                                comunity based mental health program.
                              • dale garland
                                Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                  Hi Everyone
                                  Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                                  couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                                  in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                                  people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                                  group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                                  know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                                  did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                                  that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                                  The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                                  than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                                  imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                                  when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                                  event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                                  themselves.
                                  This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                                  "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                                  who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                                  who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                                  than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                                  all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                                  answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                                  look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                                  we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                                  opinion.
                                  Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                                  involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                                  July.
                                  Dale Garland
                                  RD, HRH


                                  Dick Huff wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello everyone!
                                  >
                                  > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                                  > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                                  > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                                  > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                                  > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                                  > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                                  >
                                  > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                                  > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                                  > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                                  > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                                  > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                                  > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                                  > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                                  > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                                  > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                                  > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                                  > year.
                                  >
                                  > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                                  > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                                  > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                                  > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                                  > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                                  > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                                  > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                                  > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                                  > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                                  > Hardrock will always be there.
                                  >
                                  > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                                  > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                                  > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                                  > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks everyone.
                                  >
                                  > Dick Huff
                                  >
                                  > - Original Message -----
                                  > From: <laurantodd@...>
                                  > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                                  > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                                  >
                                  > > Jim and Matt,
                                  > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                                  > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                                  > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                                  > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                                  > high-
                                  > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                                  > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                                  > appealing
                                  > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                                  > know
                                  > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                                  > spot. If
                                  > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                                  > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                                  > which has
                                  > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                                  > and can
                                  > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                                  > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                                  > Leadville
                                  > > is still a great race).
                                  > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                                  > this
                                  > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                                  > your
                                  > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                                  > low-key
                                  > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                                  > people
                                  > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                                  > with.
                                  > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                                  > course,
                                  > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                                  > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                                  > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                                  > For
                                  > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                                  > members who
                                  > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                                  > the
                                  > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                                  > an
                                  > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                                  > > Todd Burgess
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > Matt,
                                  > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                                  > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                                  > > > > fee?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                                  > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                                  > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                                  > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                                  > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                                  > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                                  > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                                  > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                                  > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                                  > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                                  > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                                  > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                                  > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                                  > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                                  > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                                  > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                                  > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                                  > > > keep everyone happy.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                                  > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                                  > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                                  > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                                  > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > =====
                                  > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > __________________________________________________
                                  > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > > > Find a job, post your resume.
                                  > > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
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                                • Herr, Dennis B.
                                  Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                    Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                    of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                    the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                    and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                    In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                    cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                    selection process. It should make the committee's
                                    job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                    post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                    to endorse this format.

                                    dennis
                                  • Matt Mahoney
                                    ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                      --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                                      > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                      > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                      > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                      > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                      > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                      > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                      > selection process. It should make the committee's
                                      > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                      > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                      > to endorse this format.

                                      Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                                      starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                                      your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                      drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                                      who are bored with the current course or don't think
                                      it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                                      Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                                      =====
                                      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • Stevan Pattillo
                                      But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                        But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                                        Steve
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.