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Hardrock Hundred Clarification

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  • dale garland
    Thanks to everybody who caught my mistake on the last post regarding 2002 Hardrock Hundred entries. I believe the verbage went something to the effect that we
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2001
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      Thanks to everybody who caught my mistake on the last post regarding
      2002 Hardrock Hundred entries. I believe the verbage went something to
      the effect that we would look at applications beginning Jan. 15th; what
      I meant to say is that we will begin accepting entries with a POSTMARK
      date no sooner than Jan. 15th, 2002. Please don't think you have to send
      them overnight or special delivery; just make sure they are there by the
      29th of January.
      Thanks,
      Dale Garland
      RD, HRH
    • jfisher
      Greetings All I have been informed via rumor that there will in all probablity be far more applicants for the HR100 than spaces available. Nothing new here. I
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 10, 2001
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        Greetings All

        I have been informed via rumor that there will in all probablity be far more
        applicants for the HR100 than spaces available. Nothing new here. I guess I
        blithly haven't paid any attention though. Because I was also surprised when
        I heard that past participation (requardless of completions or proven
        performance capabilities) no longer has much meaning or weight in the
        selection process. The reason given to me was that there are enough past
        participants (with proven completion capabilities) that they alone could fill
        the run and thus of course totally exculde any new entrants. I realize that
        the run's success and growing popularity present some delimmas for the
        "selection" committee.

        I have some suggestions to make, ie my opinions about at least one way to
        thin the applicant load. All Right -- I will admit right here that my
        suggestions are self serving and additionally hopefully benefitting not only
        myself but also my training partner.

        Rational: Whereas, the Hardrock organizing committee has placed high
        importance and gratitude on those who do volunteer service for the run. They
        like to publicly demonstrate this gratitude and to encourage others to do
        volunteer service which benefits the run by the yearly example of giving the
        Mother Lode Award.
        Thus my suggestion; Give some rating or credit in the selection process to
        those applicants who have given service to and benefitted the run. Maybe not
        at the obvious level of the Mother Lode Award, but those who have contributed
        in their own way at lessor levels such as; Doing/helping in some of the
        yearly ongoing trail maintaince (example shoveling out the Neut shoot),
        assisting in the course marking, post run trail sweeping to pick up the
        course markers (always in need of volunteers), helping coordinate housing
        efforts in Silverton, assisting in the so very critical ongoing efforts with
        public officials, publicity, maintaining the web site, participating in other
        activities throughout the year besides just at run time, etc. Every year I
        see some runners who are very high caliber and capable of placing very well,
        but who also show up every year, keep to themselves, continue to train, and
        do nothing to contribute. I ascribe here the attitude of "I'm here for
        myself, to prove myself, to win, or whatever, and my entry fee sufficiently
        covers all that I need to give to this event." Of course my assumption about
        someone else's attitude may be wrong, and I admit many people have limited
        vacation time or funds to stay in the area. I guess what I would like to see
        though, is that the HR100 selection comittee reward those people who have
        shown up many times and said by their personal presence and activities "This
        run is about more than just my personal journey, it is bigger than me, it is
        about others too." "I like this run/event, the local community." "This run's
        people are my friends, I want to contribute to them." You get the picture

        Food For Thought -- Dale

        I await the hail storm of opinionated relpys. I'm sure everyone else has
        their own pet pig to put into the show.

        Jim Fisher



        dale garland wrote:

        > Thanks to everybody who caught my mistake on the last post regarding
        > 2002 Hardrock Hundred entries. I believe the verbage went something to
        > the effect that we would look at applications beginning Jan. 15th; what
        > I meant to say is that we will begin accepting entries with a POSTMARK
        > date no sooner than Jan. 15th, 2002. Please don't think you have to send
        > them overnight or special delivery; just make sure they are there by the
        > 29th of January.
        > Thanks,
        > Dale Garland
        > RD, HRH
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
        >
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        >
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      • Matt Mahoney
        I think the best way to limit entries to Hardrock is to raise the entry fee and let the market take care of it. A few years ago I took a survey to see how
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 11, 2001
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          I think the best way to limit entries to Hardrock is
          to raise the entry fee and let the market take care of
          it. A few years ago I took a survey to see how much
          people would pay to run Western States if they could
          be guaranteed entry. The answer was that about half
          would be willing to pay $300, which was about twice
          the entry fee at the time, when the acceptance rate
          was 50%. Considering inflation and all the publicity
          we got on TV, you probably need to charge about
          $400-$500.

          Of course, volunteers should get guaranteed, free
          entry as a reward. Don't forget that in 1997 I spent
          14 hours with Don Winkley and Hal Winton pulling
          markers from Maggie Gulch to Handies Peak on the
          Monday after the race. I also went on several course
          marking hikes, but these don't count since it's just
          Charlie Thorn marking the course and 20 people tagging
          along.

          I also think race directors should get free entry.
          I'll give all Hardrock staff and volunteers free entry
          to the Wickham Park 200.

          You could also take the Leadville approach and accept
          500 runners with no qualifications. This really isn't
          so bad, since most runners will be dropping out at
          Arrastra Gulch when they realize they have to get
          their feet wet...


          =====
          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

          __________________________________________________
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        • clapper@american.edu
          I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak up on this one. Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport in the same direction as skiing and
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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            I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak up on this one.
            Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport in the same direction
            as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class, white suburban, middle
            age elite. I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
            younger people of lesser means. When I first started in this sport I had
            to limit my competition because I could not afford races; even if I sleep
            in my car and brought my own food. I think for a lot of young folks a
            $100+ entry fee is already prohibitive. I propose that more race directors
            do what Bull Run Run does and offer free entry based on financial need.

            Joe Clapper






            Matt Mahoney <matmahoney@...> on 11/11/2001 02:21:29 PM

            Please respond to hr100@yahoogroups.com

            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
            cc:
            Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

            I think the best way to limit entries to Hardrock is
            to raise the entry fee and let the market take care of
            it. A few years ago I took a survey to see how much
            people would pay to run Western States if they could
            be guaranteed entry. The answer was that about half
            would be willing to pay $300, which was about twice
            the entry fee at the time, when the acceptance rate
            was 50%. Considering inflation and all the publicity
            we got on TV, you probably need to charge about
            $400-$500.

            Of course, volunteers should get guaranteed, free
            entry as a reward. Don't forget that in 1997 I spent
            14 hours with Don Winkley and Hal Winton pulling
            markers from Maggie Gulch to Handies Peak on the
            Monday after the race. I also went on several course
            marking hikes, but these don't count since it's just
            Charlie Thorn marking the course and 20 people tagging
            along.

            I also think race directors should get free entry.
            I'll give all Hardrock staff and volunteers free entry
            to the Wickham Park 200.

            You could also take the Leadville approach and accept
            500 runners with no qualifications. This really isn't
            so bad, since most runners will be dropping out at
            Arrastra Gulch when they realize they have to get
            their feet wet...


            =====
            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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          • Matt Mahoney
            ... I thought we already did that. In any case, there s plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR series, Barkley, Nolan s 14, and lots of fat ass
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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              --- clapper@... wrote:
              >
              > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
              > up on this one.
              > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
              > in the same direction
              > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
              > white suburban, middle
              > age elite.

              I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
              plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
              series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
              including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
              easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
              ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
              or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
              see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
              people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
              TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
              what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
              there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
              says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
              reason to run the big ultras?


              =====
              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

              __________________________________________________
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            • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
              Matt, Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry fee? Please don t forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                Matt,
                Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
                fee?
                Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
                and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
                town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
                everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
                have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
                kids.
                Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                Thanks
                Bozena

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
                To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                --- clapper@... wrote:
                >
                > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
                > up on this one.
                > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
                > in the same direction
                > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
                > white suburban, middle
                > age elite.

                I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
                plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
                series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
                including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
                easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
                ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
                or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
                see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
                people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
                TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
                what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
                there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
                says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
                reason to run the big ultras?


                =====
                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                __________________________________________________
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                Find a job, post your resume.
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              • Rebecca Clark and Blake Wood
                ... I don t have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                  jfisher wrote:

                  > Thus my suggestion; Give some rating or credit in the selection process to
                  > those applicants who have given service to and benefitted the run. ...

                  I don't have the entry acceptance algorithm right at hand, but there are a
                  limited number of slots (5, I think) put aside for people who have provided
                  extraordinary service to Hardrock. This doesn't quite address Jim's suggestion,
                  which seems aimed more at the worker bees than at those who fill some specific
                  role (the canonical example being Lisa Richardson in 2001). However, a large
                  number of slots - about half in fact - are doled out at the selection committee's
                  discretion. You should rest assured that the kind of service Jim refers to will
                  play a large role in how these slots are awarded. I agree with Jim that one of
                  the things that makes Hardrock what it is are the people who come back year after
                  year to help mark the course, work an aid station, pace another runner, etc. I
                  agree also that these people should be encouraged and rewarded for their
                  dedication. The Hardrock Board is not at all interested in making Hardrock an
                  elite race, but would rather preserve the ambiance that has made it such a great
                  experience in the past.

                  Concerning Matt and Joe's comments about entry fees: although we could easily
                  charge much more and still fill our entry quota, the Board voted not to increase
                  fees. In general, we feel that as long as we're covering expenses and have
                  enough in the bank to survive another cancelled run, like '95, there is no need
                  to increase fees, even to provide additional amenities that are provided in other
                  runs, but which few of us feel are needed at Hardrock.

                  - Blake

                  Blake Wood and Rebecca Clark
                  1146 Big Rock Loop
                  Los Alamos, NM 87544
                  bwood@...
                  505-662-4763
                • Keith Knipling
                  One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually informative,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                    One thing you should know about Matt Mahoney is that EVERYTHING he writes
                    should be taken with a grain of salt. While his posts are usually
                    informative, accurate, and beneficial, everything he says is usually said
                    very much tongue-in-cheek. Whatever he says, though eccentric as it may
                    seem, is usually genuine and never intended to insult anyone.

                    Now to comment on what Joe said:

                    I believe we should be going the other way and reaching out to
                    younger people of lesser means.

                    Right on! I hope 26 on a student budget qualifies. I think the committee
                    should accept all applicants outside of 2 standard deviations of the mean
                    age, which I'm guessing is 42 or so (i.e. the young guys and the old guys).
                    This makes things more interesting than having 120 baby boomers. It also
                    guarantees John DeWalt a position at the starting line. If there's any
                    crime in all of this selection process, it would be John DeWalt missing an
                    opportunity to continue his impressive string of finishes at Hardrock.

                    Do I expect anyone to take me seriously? No. Just trying to provide some
                    levity to an apparently tense situation. We supposedly run for recreation,
                    not for another source of stress in our lives.

                    Keith

                    Keith Knipling
                    Materials Science and Engineering
                    213 Holden Hall
                    Virginia Tech
                    Blacksburg, VA 24061-0237
                    Voice: (540) 231-2105
                    Fax: (540) 231-8919
                    e-mail: kkniplin@...

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:58 PM
                    To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification

                    Matt,
                    Since you sound like you have a lot of money to spend, can you pay my entry
                    fee?
                    Please don't forget that not everyone is use to sleeping in one person tent
                    and take baths in cold rivers. How about the money the rest of us spend it
                    town where the race is. How about hotels, food. Don't forget that not
                    everyone is a teacher and has two months vacation every summer. Some of us
                    have to take unpaid time off from work. And most important, most of us have
                    kids.
                    Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                    Thanks
                    Bozena

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:49 PM
                    To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                    --- clapper@... wrote:
                    >
                    > I usually let the chatter go by, but I have to speak
                    > up on this one.
                    > Limiting entries by raising the fee sends our sport
                    > in the same direction
                    > as skiing and golf: towards the upper middle class,
                    > white suburban, middle
                    > age elite.

                    I thought we already did that. In any case, there's
                    plenty of cheap or free ultras, like the MTN RNR
                    series, Barkley, Nolan's 14, and lots of fat ass races
                    including some 100 milers. They can be short or long,
                    easy or as tough as you like, just like the "real"
                    ultras that charge big entry fees and have lotteries
                    or trail work requirements. The only difference I can
                    see is that in a "real" ultra you get a T-shirt that
                    people will recognize. "Oh yeah, I saw that race on
                    TV. It looked really tough" instead of "Wickham Park,
                    what's that?" Sorry, recognition is in big demand and
                    there is a short supply of it, so simple economics
                    says you gotta pay for it. Or is there some other
                    reason to run the big ultras?


                    =====
                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Find a job, post your resume.
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                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Matt Mahoney
                    ... Sure, at Wickham Park :-) ... I think it s good training. I don t know if anyone else has noticed but it seems to me that people that demand the most
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                      --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                      wrote:
                      > Matt,
                      > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                      > spend, can you pay my entry
                      > fee?

                      Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                      > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                      > sleeping in one person tent
                      > and take baths in cold rivers.

                      I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                      else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                      demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                      ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                      > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                      I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                      and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                      the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                      make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                      keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                      but then they just have to substitute some other
                      arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                      lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                      requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                      standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                      "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                      names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                      keep everyone happy.

                      The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                      special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                      plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                      have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                      want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                      =====
                      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Find a job, post your resume.
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                    • jfisher
                      Hey Matt (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider apologizing, before you
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                        Hey Matt
                        (Can I give you a little personal advise -- free of charge
                        You best back off your arrogant attitude, and maybe even consider
                        apologizing,
                        before you put your foot into it a little further than you can chew.)
                        Your cold logic and rational below do not cover up your total lack of
                        understanding, glory grabbing, patting yourself on the back or whatever it is
                        that you are doing, and thinking the rest of the HR100 runners are to dumb to
                        see through it.

                        GET THIS plain and simple, the Hardrock is not about prestige, recognition,
                        money, being noble, or whatever else is in your mind. If as you stated so
                        clearly below in your reply to Bozena and also in your reply to Joe Clapper,
                        in your mind you equate the specialness of the Hardrock with prestige,
                        recognition, or whatever else you are projecting onto it -- then you have
                        missed the point of the run entirely. It is very sad that even though you
                        have been there many years, you could not see through your own little
                        attention grabbing world, to see the real beauty of what the Hardrock 100
                        really is. 1st as stated in so many of the HR100 documents this event is
                        about the runners testing themselves against those incredibly beautiful
                        mountains. 2nd It is about the runners period; testing themselves personally,
                        reaching past themselves -- out to other runners, camaraderie, seeing the
                        inner beauty and strengths of the other runners and helpers on the course.
                        (Not just seeing everyone else as more people upon which to inflict yourself
                        and as victims upon whom your can expound your personal glories and athletic
                        feats) This is a lesson that you would best learn from Joel Zuker. Every
                        person associated with the Hardrock felt a great loss with his departure,
                        because we were all his friends --- because he saw all of us as friends (not
                        competitors, to play one up-man-ship verbal games with). Joel never met a
                        stranger, every person he encountered he instantly saw a friend. And he
                        equally instantly reached out to be of service, to contribute to the life of
                        his newly found friend. That is what the Hardrock is about -- FRIENDS,
                        voluntarily contributing to each other, because they are our friends, because
                        we care about them. Again it is sad that you have missed one of the real
                        beauties of the Hardrock, the other people (because you were so busy looking
                        at yourself) The Hardrock is about the joy, happiness, the friendships, the
                        love that get created when people come together with respect for each other
                        and for the common purpose of running through the mountains together.

                        My suggestion to the selection committee of -- Contributing to others (this
                        event) because you care about them, is not an arbitrary hurdle. (and it is
                        not one that you could probably leap over or crawl under) If all you have to
                        contribute is -- raise the price, raise the price, make them pay, make them
                        pay -- then you best keep your mouth shut and contribute nothing at all. I
                        and many others are embarrassed that you could not even see Bozena's or Joe's
                        genuine concern (financially) for themselves and for others, and that
                        Bozena's hints were to subtle for you, that you chose instead to add further
                        insult to injury. You best go take a bath in an icy river yourself and chill
                        out your inflated (recognition and prestige seeking) ego. These things do not
                        belong at the Hardrock.

                        Joel Zuker, Joe Clapper, Bozena Maslanka, & I may never run Nolan's 14 but
                        there are a few things you can still learn from us, actually something you
                        are desperately seeking -- a way out of your lonelyness. Please consider what
                        was offered here, out of genuine compassion for you.

                        Finally Matt, I am sincerely sorry that I had to be the one who had to be so
                        blunt and crude to you -- you asked for it many times and others were to
                        polite. As said above, I am deeply saddened that you have failed to find one
                        of the real goals and beauty of the Hardrock, FRIENDS, connecting sincerely
                        and genuinely with the other people. Please come this next year with that
                        being your goal. For you it will be harder than running the course -- I
                        guarentee you Matt the reward will also be much greater. It's called
                        happiness.

                        Jim Fisher

                        Matt Mahoney wrote:

                        > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Matt,
                        > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                        > > spend, can you pay my entry
                        > > fee?
                        >
                        > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                        >
                        > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                        > > sleeping in one person tent
                        > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                        >
                        > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                        > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                        > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                        > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                        >
                        > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                        >
                        > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                        > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                        > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                        > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                        > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                        > but then they just have to substitute some other
                        > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                        > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                        > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                        > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                        > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                        > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                        > keep everyone happy.
                        >
                        > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                        > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                        > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                        > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                        > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                        >
                        > =====
                        > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Find a job, post your resume.
                        > http://careers.yahoo.com
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                        >
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • laurantodd@pcisys.net
                        Jim and Matt, Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here s my two
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 12, 2001
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                          Jim and Matt,
                          Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                          start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                          I hope Hardrock never ...
                          1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The high-
                          altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                          Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most appealing
                          aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and know
                          that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry spot. If
                          Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                          would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville, which has
                          a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails and can
                          handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                          character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but Leadville
                          is still a great race).
                          2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started this
                          race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is your
                          race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it low-key
                          and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the people
                          who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree with.
                          But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the course,
                          volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                          volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                          3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position. For
                          those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club members who
                          pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love the
                          challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me an
                          ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                          Todd Burgess


                          > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > Matt,
                          > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                          > > spend, can you pay my entry
                          > > fee?
                          >
                          > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                          >
                          > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                          > > sleeping in one person tent
                          > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                          >
                          > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                          > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                          > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                          > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                          >
                          > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                          >
                          > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                          > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                          > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                          > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                          > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                          > but then they just have to substitute some other
                          > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                          > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                          > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                          > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                          > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                          > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                          > keep everyone happy.
                          >
                          > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                          > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                          > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                          > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                          > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Find a job, post your resume.
                          > http://careers.yahoo.com
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                          >
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
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                          >
                          >


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                        • Dick Huff
                          Hello everyone! I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello everyone!

                            I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                            year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                            included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                            long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                            Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                            you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.

                            The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                            people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                            Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                            requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                            Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                            will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                            his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                            you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                            work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                            excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                            year.

                            I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                            said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                            such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                            nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                            the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                            year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                            for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                            many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                            there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                            Hardrock will always be there.

                            It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                            Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                            expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                            all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?

                            Thanks everyone.

                            Dick Huff













                            - Original Message -----
                            From: <laurantodd@...>
                            To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                            Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                            > Jim and Matt,
                            > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                            > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                            > I hope Hardrock never ...
                            > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                            high-
                            > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                            > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                            appealing
                            > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                            know
                            > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                            spot. If
                            > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                            > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                            which has
                            > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                            and can
                            > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                            > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                            Leadville
                            > is still a great race).
                            > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                            this
                            > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                            your
                            > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                            low-key
                            > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                            people
                            > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                            with.
                            > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                            course,
                            > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                            > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                            > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                            For
                            > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                            members who
                            > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                            the
                            > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                            an
                            > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                            > Todd Burgess
                            >
                            >
                            > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > Matt,
                            > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                            > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                            > > > fee?
                            > >
                            > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                            > >
                            > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                            > > > sleeping in one person tent
                            > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                            > >
                            > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                            > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                            > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                            > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                            > >
                            > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                            > >
                            > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                            > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                            > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                            > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                            > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                            > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                            > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                            > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                            > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                            > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                            > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                            > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                            > > keep everyone happy.
                            > >
                            > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                            > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                            > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                            > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                            > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > =====
                            > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________________________
                            > > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > > Find a job, post your resume.
                            > > http://careers.yahoo.com
                            > >
                            > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                            > >
                            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------------------
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                            > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                          • Herr, Dennis B.
                            Matt wrote: You must choose names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still keep everyone happy. How about the old dart board? Dennis -
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Matt wrote:

                              You must choose
                              names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                              keep everyone happy.

                              How about the old dart board?

                              Dennis

                              -
                            • Maslanka, Bozena (SC)
                              Matt, I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent person. What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely? Please read all
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Matt,
                                I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                                person.
                                What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                                Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                                too late.
                                All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                                pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                                four years.
                                Stop making ass of yourself.
                                Bozena

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                                Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                                To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                                --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                                wrote:
                                > Matt,
                                > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                                > spend, can you pay my entry
                                > fee?

                                Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                                > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                                > sleeping in one person tent
                                > and take baths in cold rivers.

                                I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                                else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                                demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                                ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                                > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                                I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                                and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                                the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                                make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                                keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                                but then they just have to substitute some other
                                arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                                lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                                requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                                standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                                "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                                names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                                keep everyone happy.

                                The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                                special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                                plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                                have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                                want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                                =====
                                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Find a job, post your resume.
                                http://careers.yahoo.com

                                To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

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                              • Herr, Dennis B.
                                Come on people; get a sense of humor! Get a life outside of running. What happened to the spirit of charity and unity that has been ballyhooed since 9-11?
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                  Come on people; get a sense of humor!

                                  Get a life outside of running.

                                  What happened to the spirit of charity
                                  and unity that has been ballyhooed since
                                  9-11?

                                  Dennis Herr

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Maslanka, Bozena (SC) [mailto:bmaslank@...]
                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 AM
                                  To: 'hr100@yahoogroups.com'
                                  Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                                  Matt,
                                  I will try not insult you because I thought that you were very intelligent
                                  person.
                                  What is wrong with you, have you lost it completely?
                                  Please read all the responses you made and seek medical help. It may not be
                                  too late.
                                  All the glory and t-shirts you mention earlier, well what is up with the one
                                  pair of shorts and one pair of t-shirt you have been wearing for the past
                                  four years.
                                  Stop making ass of yourself.
                                  Bozena

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Matt Mahoney [mailto:matmahoney@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:46 PM
                                  To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification


                                  --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Matt,
                                  > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                                  > spend, can you pay my entry
                                  > fee?

                                  Sure, at Wickham Park :-)

                                  > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                                  > sleeping in one person tent
                                  > and take baths in cold rivers.

                                  I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                                  else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                                  demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                                  ones to drop out when the going gets tough.

                                  > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.

                                  I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                                  and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                                  the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                                  make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                                  keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                                  but then they just have to substitute some other
                                  arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                                  lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                                  requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                                  standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                                  "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                                  names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                                  keep everyone happy.

                                  The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                                  special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                                  plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                                  have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                                  want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.


                                  =====
                                  -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Find a job, post your resume.
                                  http://careers.yahoo.com

                                  To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...

                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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                                • Matt Mahoney
                                  Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I guess I am. I didn t mean to insult everyone that stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I m
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                    Sorry if I sounded self-centered in my last post. I
                                    guess I am. I didn't mean to insult everyone that
                                    stays in a hotel in Silverton. I camp because I'm
                                    cheap.

                                    I don't want to pay a higher entry fee at Hardrock.
                                    What I am trying to say is there isn't any painless
                                    way to limit entries. We could have everyone with
                                    last names starting with A through L run next year and
                                    M through Z in 2003. I know that's arbitrary, but so
                                    is every other method that anyone has come up with.
                                    Somebody isn't going to like it.

                                    I enjoy Hardrock because it's a chance to see my
                                    friends, although I seem to have fewer of them now.


                                    =====
                                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
                                    http://personals.yahoo.com
                                  • Stevan Pattillo
                                    Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis. Any discussion
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                      Jimmy, Oh come on, try not to be so hard on Matt. He is initiating a
                                      discussion not asking for an on-line personnality inventory and analysis.
                                      Any discussion the entry proceedure is bound to be contentious, it needs to
                                      be thought provoking if we are to come up with any new approaches. Most of
                                      us are too far gone to be helped by any drive-up psychoanalysis. That is
                                      what makes us such a "colorful" bunch, and possibly why we enjoy each
                                      other's company at Hardrock.
                                      As an aside; I'm glad I'm not the person who has to decide just how many
                                      entries and the selection criteria that allows most of us to qualify for
                                      what is beginning to look more and more like a day out program for a
                                      comunity based mental health program.
                                    • dale garland
                                      Hi Everyone Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved in the
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 13, 2001
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                                        Hi Everyone
                                        Dick Huff has asked what my thoughts on what has been said the past
                                        couple of days so here goes! I know I am speaking for all of us involved
                                        in the HRH when I say we are honored that this run means so much to
                                        people. The people involved with putting this run on are truly a special
                                        group of people; but those of who who subscribe to this list already
                                        know that. I find it a bit unsettling that the dialogue that transpired
                                        did take a personal note and kudos to both Jim and Matt for realizing
                                        that this list isn't the best place for such a dialogue.
                                        The selection of runners for the HRH has become much more complicated
                                        than any of us (the organizers/run committe/Board of Directors) ever
                                        imagined it would be. Once again, I am speaking for the run as a whole
                                        when I say that we are all dedicated to keeping the Hardrock Hundred an
                                        event for those who want to challenge themselves against our course and
                                        themselves.
                                        This years selection process favors those who have been part of our
                                        "family". There is a bias in this years selection process toward those
                                        who have attempted/completed our run. We have allocated slots for people
                                        who want to experience the HRH for the first time but the number is less
                                        than the number allocated for previous participants. Does this mean that
                                        all of you who want to run in 2002 will be here in July? None of us can
                                        answer that question until the first of February when we sit down and
                                        look at the applications. If this selection process doesn't work then
                                        we'll definitely revamp it for 2003 and you can count on us getting your
                                        opinion.
                                        Personally speaking, all of you are the biggest part of why I stay
                                        involved in this run. I hope to see all of you who want to be here in
                                        July.
                                        Dale Garland
                                        RD, HRH


                                        Dick Huff wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello everyone!
                                        >
                                        > I am a relative newcomer to Hardrock, the first year as a pacer, the second
                                        > year as a runner (DNF). I can understand why everyone is afraid of not being
                                        > included each year. Hardrock is a truly special event. It does not take very
                                        > long to get to know everyone and be involved in all aspects of the event.
                                        > Everyone's stories of success and failure come in to play each year. I think
                                        > you all look forward to being a part of each others lives during Hardrock.
                                        >
                                        > The inevitable is happening, Ultras are becoming more popular and more
                                        > people want to participate. Unfortunately, there is not enough room at
                                        > Hardrock each year for the growing masses. I have a suggestion for entry
                                        > requirements: limit the number of times people are allowed to attempt
                                        > Hardrock to Three. This may seem like harsh reality at the initial stage. We
                                        > will all miss all of the five time finishers, whether Kirk Apt can continue
                                        > his awesome streak. But, if you all hold Hardrock in such high regard, then
                                        > you can come back year after year and mark the course, pace, volunteer, or
                                        > work at the Aid Stations. You can still be a part of all of the fun,
                                        > excitement, the people, the beautiful mountains without being a runner every
                                        > year.
                                        >
                                        > I agree with Jim Fisher, Hardrock is magical and is about friends. Like I
                                        > said, I am a newcomer to Hardrock, I liked being a part of and accepted by
                                        > such a fascinating group of people from the first day. That is just human
                                        > nature. Why not let as many people be a part Hardrock. I must admit, after
                                        > the first year, I decided that I wanted to go back to Hardrock and run every
                                        > year. I now know that would be a very selfish thing to do. I was grateful
                                        > for the opportunity to run. I think everyone should be willing to let as
                                        > many people experience Hardrock as possible, let some other runners achieve
                                        > there goals. The names and faces will change over the years, the magic of
                                        > Hardrock will always be there.
                                        >
                                        > It is a tribute to Dale Garland that everyone has such strong emotions about
                                        > Hardrock. I have not heard Dale comment about the large number of applicants
                                        > expected this year. Has this problem been created by the runners? Are we
                                        > all getting excited for no reason? Dale-Are you concerned about this at all?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks everyone.
                                        >
                                        > Dick Huff
                                        >
                                        > - Original Message -----
                                        > From: <laurantodd@...>
                                        > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>; <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:37 PM
                                        > Subject: RE: [hr100] Hardrock Hundred Clarification
                                        >
                                        > > Jim and Matt,
                                        > > Thanks for generating conversation. I hate waiting for the snow reports to
                                        > > start thinking about the Silverton One-Lap Fun Run. Here's my two cents:
                                        > > I hope Hardrock never ...
                                        > > 1. Becomes like Leadville in that everyone who enters is accepted. The
                                        > high-
                                        > > altitude trails can't handle that type of abuse, and the small size of
                                        > > Hardrock -- where you are treated like family -- is one of its most
                                        > appealing
                                        > > aspects. If given the choice, I'd rather have the race limited to 100 and
                                        > know
                                        > > that I'm not allowed in than have it be 150 and be guaranteed an entry
                                        > spot. If
                                        > > Hardrock were ever to open itself to all-comers I wouldn't enter. Hardrock
                                        > > would no longer be Hardrock. (Note: This is not a knock on Leadville,
                                        > which has
                                        > > a lot of jeep road, is at a lower altitude, is on more-developed trails
                                        > and can
                                        > > handle more people than Hardrock. I think Leadville is crowded, and the
                                        > > character of the race has gotten worse as it has gotten bigger, but
                                        > Leadville
                                        > > is still a great race).
                                        > > 2. Comes down to a points system. You runners and volunteers who started
                                        > this
                                        > > race and kept it going deserve the first crack at entry spots. This is
                                        > your
                                        > > race. You took the initial risks. You kept the race going. You kept it
                                        > low-key
                                        > > and challenging. You made it the coolest race there is. Rewarding the
                                        > people
                                        > > who started this race and help keep it going evey year I totally agree
                                        > with.
                                        > > But if a points system were instituted, I could see people marking the
                                        > course,
                                        > > volunteering, pacing, etc., to get the points and NOT to mark the course,
                                        > > volunteer, pace, etc. That would be so wrong.
                                        > > 3. Becomes like the Ironman in that dollars improve your lottery position.
                                        > For
                                        > > those not familiar, the Ironman has a separate lottery for its club
                                        > members who
                                        > > pay extra for that privilege. That's on top of its ungodly cost. I love
                                        > the
                                        > > challenge of the Ironman but the cost is one of the things that makes me
                                        > an
                                        > > ultra freak and not a tri-geek.
                                        > > Todd Burgess
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > --- "Maslanka, Bozena (SC)" <bmaslank@...>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > Matt,
                                        > > > > Since you sound like you have a lot of money to
                                        > > > > spend, can you pay my entry
                                        > > > > fee?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Sure, at Wickham Park :-)
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Please don't forget that not everyone is use to
                                        > > > > sleeping in one person tent
                                        > > > > and take baths in cold rivers.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I think it's good training. I don't know if anyone
                                        > > > else has noticed but it seems to me that people that
                                        > > > demand the most comfort outside the race are the first
                                        > > > ones to drop out when the going gets tough.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Please be more sensitive making silly suggestions.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I don't think it's silly. If you have 200 entrants
                                        > > > and 100 slots, then half of them aren't going to like
                                        > > > the selection process no matter how fair you try to
                                        > > > make it. I think it's noble that Hardrock intends to
                                        > > > keep the entry fee below what the market will bear,
                                        > > > but then they just have to substitute some other
                                        > > > arbitrary hurdle to limit entries. This could be a
                                        > > > lottery (like Western States), a trail work
                                        > > > requirement (like Wasatch), or tougher qualifying
                                        > > > standards (like the world championships or Ironman).
                                        > > > "None of the above" is not an option. You must choose
                                        > > > names somehow, and there is no way to do it and still
                                        > > > keep everyone happy.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The point of my previous post was to ask what is so
                                        > > > special about Hardrock that it fills up when there are
                                        > > > plenty of cheap or free races? It is not like you
                                        > > > have to have a lot of money to run ultras. But if you
                                        > > > want prestige, I think you should have to pay for it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > =====
                                        > > > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > __________________________________________________
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                                      • Herr, Dennis B.
                                        Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim of its own success, so maybe it s time to raise the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations and no course
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                          Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                          of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                          the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                          and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                          In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                          cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                          selection process. It should make the committee's
                                          job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                          post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                          to endorse this format.

                                          dennis
                                        • Matt Mahoney
                                          ... Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the starting time and date. Just go run the course on your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                            --- "Herr, Dennis B." <dennis_herr@...> wrote:
                                            > Obviously, the Hardrock Committee is a victim
                                            > of its own success, so maybe it's time to raise
                                            > the ante. How about no crews, no aid stations
                                            > and no course markings (except on your maps)?
                                            > In other words, no more pampering. That should
                                            > cut out some of the deadwood. Call it a natural
                                            > selection process. It should make the committee's
                                            > job a lot easier. Remember, this is billed as a
                                            > post-grad event. I'm sure Matt would be the first
                                            > to endorse this format.

                                            Great idea. In fact we can be flexible about the
                                            starting time and date. Just go run the course on
                                            your own and tell us how long it took. We can even
                                            drop the entry fee and qualifications. And for those
                                            who are bored with the current course or don't think
                                            it's tough enough, I can suggest a few changes around
                                            Sneffels, Sunshine, and Redcloud.


                                            =====
                                            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

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                                          • Stevan Pattillo
                                            But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far! Steve
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 14, 2001
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                                              But, But, But? No T-shirt? Now that is going too far!
                                              Steve
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