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Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.

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  • Steve Kral
    For those who are wondering if the comments below are a joke, I can assure you they aren t. A couple of years ago I was on a shuttle to the start of the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
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      For those who are wondering if the comments below are a joke, I can assure you they aren't.

      A couple of years ago I was on a shuttle to the start of the Silverton Alpine 50KM with this exemplar sportsman, and he told me point blank that he would feel no compunction whatsoever about starting the Hardrock 100 Mile Run with no intention of finishing if it meant ensuring his eligibility for future years...damnation to any outsider who wanted to run the race and had the ability to do it.

      Regrettably, sometimes I fear the "Hardrock Tribe" displays the morals of a Bedouin Clan more than a family.

      It's funny how the concept of running 100 miles in the Hardrock 100 Mile Run is now somehow called "elitism." Isn't it more simply, accomplishing the goal? As far as "elitism" goes, I think this is a perfect example of "when you point your finger, you got four more fingers pointing back at you." Elitist non-finisher!

      Of course, Jean-Jacques does seemingly have the "Spirit of Hardrock" behind him...when I questioned the Board about the ethics of Jean-Jacques comment, they viewed his actions as entirely his own decision.

      Anyway, congrats on your DNF in 2011 Jean-Jacques!

      Cheers
      Steve Kral

      --- On Thu, 7/21/11, Jean-Jacques d <jjda36618@...> wrote:

      From: Jean-Jacques d <jjda36618@...>
      Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, July 21, 2011, 2:14 PM
















       









      Horse crap to Popov and the rest of the "youth elitist movement:".

      Since when has Hardrock's goal been to "ensure that everyone who enters, finishes"?

      Jones and Grant and hundreds of young runners have a lifetime of experiences before them.  Should they push all the older and aging runners aside and deprive them of a few more years of experiencing the joy of Hardrock?  

      As originally concieved Hardrock was not a "race" but a "run" to honor the miners of the area, not to furnish a contest where youth and speed are the goals.

      What I hear is an echo of the moral morass of politics today where the rich get richer and the poor get more so.  Curses on all who would defile Hardrock in the same manner.

      Jean-Jacques d'Aquin



      ________________________________

      From: Michael Popov <michael@...>

      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:24 AM

      Subject: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.



       



      First of all, thank you for all your hard work at the race organization and

      execution. Despite the challenging conditions, I enjoyed every bit of it,

      and think that the conditions/trails could be more severe or hard - be it

      elevation gain or the nature's kinks - it is what it is and everyone is in

      the same boat. Actually, I think that two of aid stations were unnecessary

      on the course - if you're running Hardrock, you need to be prepared to take

      care of yourself on your own. From what I experienced - there could be more

      vertical, more talus, more pressure on the cut-offs, more snow, and more

      creek crossings - more fun! The will to finish gets so much stronger.



      I think that there should be a formula for the certain percentage of

      starters who DNF'd in the last year to get them less points in the lottery

      for the next year. That would eliminate the wannabees who ran the

      qualifiers, but failed to finish the Hardrock on the first try, and also

      eliminate the repeat runners who are ageing and who will likely to DNF again

      and bump up the Hardrock DNF stats. One way to look at it is to see the

      trends in the previous years, for example - if you DNF'd at HURT, and then

      DNF'd at Hardrock at the same year, should you be having a chance at another

      hard hundred miler unless you get your training straight? Maybe you should

      you let your spot go to young prodigies, like Dakota Jones, or Joseph Grant.



      The bottom line is that requirements could be more severe, to ensure that

      everyone who enters, finishes.



      Michael Popov



      Pacific Coast Trail Runs



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Pero
      Guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in, as I do have an opinion. This last email just raised the hackles on my back... I am 2 for 8 at Hardrock...one of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
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        Guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in, as I do have an opinion. This
        last email just raised the hackles on my back...

        I am 2 for 8 at Hardrock...one of the reasons I continue to run this (when I
        do get in) is I find it to be the biggest challenge to me as an ultrarunner.
        I finished my first time in 2001 in 41 hours, I tried to "race" it the next
        several years and in the end the Hardrock course beat me up. In 2008 I
        decided to just walk out of town and stay around a 48 hour finish, showing
        some respect for the course and I won my own personal battle that year,
        finishing in 43 hours. 2009 I didn't get in, last year I gave up my spot to
        Deb and this year had some freaky medical issues...but I did DNF, so
        therefore I should step aside next year based on my DNF to let a younger
        runner in the race. I chuckle when I think what John Cappis' thoughts would
        be on all of this...wish he was still around during the Hardrock to hear
        them.

        This issue will always be thrown around and those who don't get in will say
        that we who do get in aren't deserving...but I agree with JJ that what goes
        on in the background with many of us in the "Tribe" (we like to call it
        family) doesn't get seen by the youngsters training in the mountains.
        Without us the course wouldn't be marked and many of the trails would be a
        mess...and if the "run" became a priority as a "race", then I guess I'd move
        on because what I love about Hardrock is the "spirit" of Hardrock. Someday
        when I can no longer finish within the cutoffs, you youngsters will see my
        face on the other side of a table at an aid station helping you get through
        it.

        My only thoughts on any changes in the lottery would be to eliminate the
        automatic qualification by starting Hardrock. One should have to go out and
        finish another qualifier (if they did not finish) in the calender year and
        by doing so will have shown that he/she is willing and able to complete the
        most difficult official 100 mile race in the country. I think we have the
        best lottery of all the 100's and other than the above change, should remain
        unchanged.

        See some of you at the Bear 100 in September, where I plan to re-qualify!
        ;-)
        Steve Pero

        PS: Your last sentence was a cheap shot at Jean-Jacques, who I consider a
        friend.


        On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:
        >
        > For those who are wondering if the comments below are a joke, I can
        > assure you they aren't.
        >
        > A couple of years ago I was on a shuttle to the start of the Silverton
        > Alpine 50KM with this exemplar sportsman, and he told me point blank that he
        > would feel no compunction whatsoever about starting the Hardrock 100 Mile
        > Run with no intention of finishing if it meant ensuring his eligibility for
        > future years...damnation to any outsider who wanted to run the race and had
        > the ability to do it.
        >
        > Regrettably, sometimes I fear the "Hardrock Tribe" displays the morals of a
        > Bedouin Clan more than a family.
        >
        > It's funny how the concept of running 100 miles in the Hardrock 100 Mile
        > Run is now somehow called "elitism." Isn't it more simply, accomplishing the
        > goal? As far as "elitism" goes, I think this is a perfect example of "when
        > you point your finger, you got four more fingers pointing back at you."
        > Elitist non-finisher!
        >
        > Of course, Jean-Jacques does seemingly have the "Spirit of Hardrock" behind
        > him...when I questioned the Board about the ethics of Jean-Jacques comment,
        > they viewed his actions as entirely his own decision.
        >
        > Anyway, congrats on your DNF in 2011 Jean-Jacques!
        >
        > Cheers
        > Steve Kral
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lalaith_2000@yahoo.com
        As a relatively new ultra runner I have learned so much from the wisdom of the Pero s and have heard of the magic of Hardrock spoken so eloquently through
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
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          As a relatively new ultra runner I have learned so much from the wisdom of the Pero's and have heard of the magic of Hardrock spoken so eloquently through their heart felt description of the beauty of the course and Deb's art well I cannot imagine two individuals who define Hardrock for a "young" eastcoaster more so then Steve and Deb.... based on the initial email they do not have the "right" to be there? Well that is just plain silly...and I actually shook my head reading that email...I also thought the dig at the end was uncalled for... Michelle.... who one day would love to do Hardrock with Steve and Deb but wouldn't be able to keep up with them!
          Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Steve Pero <ultrastevep@...>
          Sender: hr100@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 14:25:21
          To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.

          Guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in, as I do have an opinion. This
          last email just raised the hackles on my back...

          I am 2 for 8 at Hardrock...one of the reasons I continue to run this (when I
          do get in) is I find it to be the biggest challenge to me as an ultrarunner.
          I finished my first time in 2001 in 41 hours, I tried to "race" it the next
          several years and in the end the Hardrock course beat me up. In 2008 I
          decided to just walk out of town and stay around a 48 hour finish, showing
          some respect for the course and I won my own personal battle that year,
          finishing in 43 hours. 2009 I didn't get in, last year I gave up my spot to
          Deb and this year had some freaky medical issues...but I did DNF, so
          therefore I should step aside next year based on my DNF to let a younger
          runner in the race. I chuckle when I think what John Cappis' thoughts would
          be on all of this...wish he was still around during the Hardrock to hear
          them.

          This issue will always be thrown around and those who don't get in will say
          that we who do get in aren't deserving...but I agree with JJ that what goes
          on in the background with many of us in the "Tribe" (we like to call it
          family) doesn't get seen by the youngsters training in the mountains.
          Without us the course wouldn't be marked and many of the trails would be a
          mess...and if the "run" became a priority as a "race", then I guess I'd move
          on because what I love about Hardrock is the "spirit" of Hardrock. Someday
          when I can no longer finish within the cutoffs, you youngsters will see my
          face on the other side of a table at an aid station helping you get through
          it.

          My only thoughts on any changes in the lottery would be to eliminate the
          automatic qualification by starting Hardrock. One should have to go out and
          finish another qualifier (if they did not finish) in the calender year and
          by doing so will have shown that he/she is willing and able to complete the
          most difficult official 100 mile race in the country. I think we have the
          best lottery of all the 100's and other than the above change, should remain
          unchanged.

          See some of you at the Bear 100 in September, where I plan to re-qualify!
          ;-)
          Steve Pero

          PS: Your last sentence was a cheap shot at Jean-Jacques, who I consider a
          friend.


          On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:
          >
          > For those who are wondering if the comments below are a joke, I can
          > assure you they aren't.
          >
          > A couple of years ago I was on a shuttle to the start of the Silverton
          > Alpine 50KM with this exemplar sportsman, and he told me point blank that he
          > would feel no compunction whatsoever about starting the Hardrock 100 Mile
          > Run with no intention of finishing if it meant ensuring his eligibility for
          > future years...damnation to any outsider who wanted to run the race and had
          > the ability to do it.
          >
          > Regrettably, sometimes I fear the "Hardrock Tribe" displays the morals of a
          > Bedouin Clan more than a family.
          >
          > It's funny how the concept of running 100 miles in the Hardrock 100 Mile
          > Run is now somehow called "elitism." Isn't it more simply, accomplishing the
          > goal? As far as "elitism" goes, I think this is a perfect example of "when
          > you point your finger, you got four more fingers pointing back at you."
          > Elitist non-finisher!
          >
          > Of course, Jean-Jacques does seemingly have the "Spirit of Hardrock" behind
          > him...when I questioned the Board about the ethics of Jean-Jacques comment,
          > they viewed his actions as entirely his own decision.
          >
          > Anyway, congrats on your DNF in 2011 Jean-Jacques!
          >
          > Cheers
          > Steve Kral
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Steve Kral
          Fair enough Steve. Jean-Jacques has many fine attributes. I know--I was out in the sun with him pounding Rodger s tent stakes until our hands went numb. I
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Fair enough Steve. Jean-Jacques has many fine attributes. I know--I was out in the sun with him pounding Rodger's tent stakes until our hands went numb. I think I did my share of work to make his Hardrock 2011 effort possible and he was out there last weekend at the Kendall Mtn Marathon making my run possible. I appreciate that.

            But I find his sense of entitlement about taking up a spot in this run to ensure himself another 3 years of eligibility offensive. So offensive in fact, that I'm not sure how any comment about it could be considered a cheap shot.

            All the best
            Steve

            --- On Thu, 7/21/11, Steve Pero <ultrastevep@...> wrote:

            From: Steve Pero <ultrastevep@...>
            Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, July 21, 2011, 4:25 PM
















             









            Guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in, as I do have an opinion. This

            last email just raised the hackles on my back...



            I am 2 for 8 at Hardrock...one of the reasons I continue to run this (when I

            do get in) is I find it to be the biggest challenge to me as an ultrarunner.

            I finished my first time in 2001 in 41 hours, I tried to "race" it the next

            several years and in the end the Hardrock course beat me up. In 2008 I

            decided to just walk out of town and stay around a 48 hour finish, showing

            some respect for the course and I won my own personal battle that year,

            finishing in 43 hours. 2009 I didn't get in, last year I gave up my spot to

            Deb and this year had some freaky medical issues...but I did DNF, so

            therefore I should step aside next year based on my DNF to let a younger

            runner in the race. I chuckle when I think what John Cappis' thoughts would

            be on all of this...wish he was still around during the Hardrock to hear

            them.



            This issue will always be thrown around and those who don't get in will say

            that we who do get in aren't deserving...but I agree with JJ that what goes

            on in the background with many of us in the "Tribe" (we like to call it

            family) doesn't get seen by the youngsters training in the mountains.

            Without us the course wouldn't be marked and many of the trails would be a

            mess...and if the "run" became a priority as a "race", then I guess I'd move

            on because what I love about Hardrock is the "spirit" of Hardrock. Someday

            when I can no longer finish within the cutoffs, you youngsters will see my

            face on the other side of a table at an aid station helping you get through

            it.



            My only thoughts on any changes in the lottery would be to eliminate the

            automatic qualification by starting Hardrock. One should have to go out and

            finish another qualifier (if they did not finish) in the calender year and

            by doing so will have shown that he/she is willing and able to complete the

            most difficult official 100 mile race in the country. I think we have the

            best lottery of all the 100's and other than the above change, should remain

            unchanged.



            See some of you at the Bear 100 in September, where I plan to re-qualify!

            ;-)

            Steve Pero



            PS: Your last sentence was a cheap shot at Jean-Jacques, who I consider a

            friend.



            On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

            >

            > For those who are wondering if the comments below are a joke, I can

            > assure you they aren't.

            >

            > A couple of years ago I was on a shuttle to the start of the Silverton

            > Alpine 50KM with this exemplar sportsman, and he told me point blank that he

            > would feel no compunction whatsoever about starting the Hardrock 100 Mile

            > Run with no intention of finishing if it meant ensuring his eligibility for

            > future years...damnation to any outsider who wanted to run the race and had

            > the ability to do it.

            >

            > Regrettably, sometimes I fear the "Hardrock Tribe" displays the morals of a

            > Bedouin Clan more than a family.

            >

            > It's funny how the concept of running 100 miles in the Hardrock 100 Mile

            > Run is now somehow called "elitism." Isn't it more simply, accomplishing the

            > goal? As far as "elitism" goes, I think this is a perfect example of "when

            > you point your finger, you got four more fingers pointing back at you."

            > Elitist non-finisher!

            >

            > Of course, Jean-Jacques does seemingly have the "Spirit of Hardrock" behind

            > him...when I questioned the Board about the ethics of Jean-Jacques comment,

            > they viewed his actions as entirely his own decision.

            >

            > Anyway, congrats on your DNF in 2011 Jean-Jacques!

            >

            > Cheers

            > Steve Kral

            >

            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ken gordon
               Another  2 cents.   I don t understand the 5 time automatic finisher entry.  With a race as amazing and hard to get into as this why would you let such
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
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                 Another  2 cents.   I don't understand the 5 time automatic finisher entry.  With a race as amazing and hard to get into as this why would you let such a large number of people in automatically?  In another year or two you will have half the slots filled by people who don't have to lottery in.  If you want legacy entrants then maybe make it a percentage (20%?) with the most finishes or 10 timers.  People who have 5 finishes already have a huge advantage in lottery tickets and most will get in.  Too little emphasis is put on people who have volunteered for the race over the years.  A dnf is worth more than someone who has worked at the race before the start, worked and aid station and paced many miles; all in the same year.  I have friends who have worked more hours out there than people who have finished the race but get no extra consideration yet have never been able to lottery in.  When we are at the awards clapping for those volunteers
              whose backs we run the race on why don't we figure out a way to get those qualified and willing a chance to run it also.
               ken g

              --- On Thu, 7/21/11, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

              From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
              Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, July 21, 2011, 3:06 PM
















               









              Fair enough Steve. Jean-Jacques has many fine attributes. I know--I was out in the sun with him pounding Rodger's tent stakes until our hands went numb. I think I did my share of work to make his Hardrock 2011 effort possible and he was out there last weekend at the Kendall Mtn Marathon making my run possible. I appreciate that.



              But I find his sense of entitlement about taking up a spot in this run to ensure himself another 3 years of eligibility offensive. So offensive in fact, that I'm not sure how any comment about it could be considered a cheap shot.



              All the best

              Steve



              --- On Thu, 7/21/11, Steve Pero <ultrastevep@...> wrote:



              From: Steve Pero <ultrastevep@...>

              Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.

              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

              Date: Thursday, July 21, 2011, 4:25 PM



               



              Guess I might as well throw my 2 cents in, as I do have an opinion. This



              last email just raised the hackles on my back...



              I am 2 for 8 at Hardrock...one of the reasons I continue to run this (when I



              do get in) is I find it to be the biggest challenge to me as an ultrarunner.



              I finished my first time in 2001 in 41 hours, I tried to "race" it the next



              several years and in the end the Hardrock course beat me up. In 2008 I



              decided to just walk out of town and stay around a 48 hour finish, showing



              some respect for the course and I won my own personal battle that year,



              finishing in 43 hours. 2009 I didn't get in, last year I gave up my spot to



              Deb and this year had some freaky medical issues...but I did DNF, so



              therefore I should step aside next year based on my DNF to let a younger



              runner in the race. I chuckle when I think what John Cappis' thoughts would



              be on all of this...wish he was still around during the Hardrock to hear



              them.



              This issue will always be thrown around and those who don't get in will say



              that we who do get in aren't deserving...but I agree with JJ that what goes



              on in the background with many of us in the "Tribe" (we like to call it



              family) doesn't get seen by the youngsters training in the mountains.



              Without us the course wouldn't be marked and many of the trails would be a



              mess...and if the "run" became a priority as a "race", then I guess I'd move



              on because what I love about Hardrock is the "spirit" of Hardrock. Someday



              when I can no longer finish within the cutoffs, you youngsters will see my



              face on the other side of a table at an aid station helping you get through



              it.



              My only thoughts on any changes in the lottery would be to eliminate the



              automatic qualification by starting Hardrock. One should have to go out and



              finish another qualifier (if they did not finish) in the calender year and



              by doing so will have shown that he/she is willing and able to complete the



              most difficult official 100 mile race in the country. I think we have the



              best lottery of all the 100's and other than the above change, should remain



              unchanged.



              See some of you at the Bear 100 in September, where I plan to re-qualify!



              ;-)



              Steve Pero



              PS: Your last sentence was a cheap shot at Jean-Jacques, who I consider a



              friend.



              On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



              >



              > For those who are wondering if the comments below are a joke, I can



              > assure you they aren't.



              >



              > A couple of years ago I was on a shuttle to the start of the Silverton



              > Alpine 50KM with this exemplar sportsman, and he told me point blank that he



              > would feel no compunction whatsoever about starting the Hardrock 100 Mile



              > Run with no intention of finishing if it meant ensuring his eligibility for



              > future years...damnation to any outsider who wanted to run the race and had



              > the ability to do it.



              >



              > Regrettably, sometimes I fear the "Hardrock Tribe" displays the morals of a



              > Bedouin Clan more than a family.



              >



              > It's funny how the concept of running 100 miles in the Hardrock 100 Mile



              > Run is now somehow called "elitism." Isn't it more simply, accomplishing the



              > goal? As far as "elitism" goes, I think this is a perfect example of "when



              > you point your finger, you got four more fingers pointing back at you."



              > Elitist non-finisher!



              >



              > Of course, Jean-Jacques does seemingly have the "Spirit of Hardrock" behind



              > him...when I questioned the Board about the ethics of Jean-Jacques comment,



              > they viewed his actions as entirely his own decision.



              >



              > Anyway, congrats on your DNF in 2011 Jean-Jacques!



              >



              > Cheers



              > Steve Kral



              >



              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Matt Mahoney
              Perhaps I misunderstand. If Hardrock is a run and not a race , then why is there a clock at the finish line? And why do they publish a list of finishers and
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Perhaps I misunderstand. If Hardrock is a "run" and not a "race", then why is there a clock at the finish line? And why do they publish a list of finishers and their times in order from fastest to slowest? And why are there trophies for the fastest runners? And why do we wear race numbers? And why are there cutoff times and a prescribed route and rules about pacers and crews and all these other things that determine whether or not your effort counts as a finish? Is it a race or not?

                Oh, I get it. Let's all congratulate Julien Chorier as the lucky winner for having his name drawn from a jar, vs. 8 or 10 guys who might have been faster but we'll never know.

                I know that I and 95% of the runners are just trying to beat the course and not each other. For a lot of people, just finishing a 5K is an accomplishment. That is why there are fitness walks where you get a T-shirt, a chance to work out, socialize, and eat afterward, but there is no clock, no awards, and no sorted list of finishers. So is Hardrock a race or a fitness walk?

                There are a lot of races where there are more people who want to run than there are spots available, such as the Boston and New York marathons, JFK 50, Ironman, Western States, and the Olympics. They all have different entry procedures. But what they all have in common is that they have a means to qualify so that if you are fast enough, you can get in without going through the lottery. Please note that I am suggesting a change that will make it harder for me to enter. I have 4 prior Hardrock finishes, mostly back of the pack. Why should I get 5 lottery tickets when someone like Killian Jornet, Anton Krupicka, Scott Jurek, or Goeff Roes would only get 1?

                Hardrock would have no trouble selling 140 "charity spots" for $2000 each. (The London marathon sells 80% of its 40,000 entries for a similar amount). I applaud the race committee to not succumbing to greed. But if we don't balance supply and demand by the laws of economics, then what I suggest is that the top 5% or top 5 finishers at one of the qualifying races, whichever is less, get an automatic entry. Everyone else would put their name on a multi-year waiting list. Enter any time, and you run when your name comes to the top.

                Opinions?

                 
                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...


                >________________________________
                >From: Jean-Jacques d <jjda36618@...>
                >To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:14 PM
                >Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
                >
                >

                >Horse crap to Popov and the rest of the "youth elitist movement:".
                >Since when has Hardrock's goal been to "ensure that everyone who enters, finishes"?
                >Jones and Grant and hundreds of young runners have a lifetime of experiences before them.  Should they push all the older and aging runners aside and deprive them of a few more years of experiencing the joy of Hardrock?  
                >As originally concieved Hardrock was not a "race" but a "run" to honor the miners of the area, not to furnish a contest where youth and speed are the goals.
                >What I hear is an echo of the moral morass of politics today where the rich get richer and the poor get more so.  Curses on all who would defile Hardrock in the same manner.
                >Jean-Jacques d'Aquin
                >
                >________________________________
                >From: Michael Popov <michael@...>
                >To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:24 AM
                >Subject: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
                >

                >
                >First of all, thank you for all your hard work at the race organization and
                >execution. Despite the challenging conditions, I enjoyed every bit of it,
                >and think that the conditions/trails could be more severe or hard - be it
                >elevation gain or the nature's kinks - it is what it is and everyone is in
                >the same boat. Actually, I think that two of aid stations were unnecessary
                >on the course - if you're running Hardrock, you need to be prepared to take
                >care of yourself on your own. From what I experienced - there could be more
                >vertical, more talus, more pressure on the cut-offs, more snow, and more
                >creek crossings - more fun! The will to finish gets so much stronger.
                >
                >I think that there should be a formula for the certain percentage of
                >starters who DNF'd in the last year to get them less points in the lottery
                >for the next year. That would eliminate the wannabees who ran the
                >qualifiers, but failed to finish the Hardrock on the first try, and also
                >eliminate the repeat runners who are ageing and who will likely to DNF again
                >and bump up the Hardrock DNF stats. One way to look at it is to see the
                >trends in the previous years, for example - if you DNF'd at HURT, and then
                >DNF'd at Hardrock at the same year, should you be having a chance at another
                >hard hundred miler unless you get your training straight? Maybe you should
                >you let your spot go to young prodigies, like Dakota Jones, or Joseph Grant.
                >
                >The bottom line is that requirements could be more severe, to ensure that
                >everyone who enters, finishes.
                >
                >Michael Popov
                >
                >Pacific Coast Trail Runs
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Julian Jamison
                Perhaps fruitless to reply, but here goes... Matt, for the record, I have absolutely no problem with the organizers taking 5-10 spots and handing them out to
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 21, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Perhaps fruitless to reply, but here goes...

                  Matt, for the record, I have absolutely no problem with the organizers
                  taking 5-10 spots and handing them out to fast guys, although obviously that
                  would hurt my future chances as well. I don't think I would recommend it,
                  given their stated goals, but it would certainly be a lot of fun to watch.

                  However, to respond to your specific points (speaking for myself only, of
                  course):

                  1) Hardrock is a race. When I lined up in silverton two weeks ago, I wasn't
                  especially trying to beat other people (although obviously the top guys
                  were, and that's appropriate), but I was trying to finish and to finish as
                  quickly as possible.

                  2) The fact that it's a race does not imply that the organizers are
                  obligated to accept or recruit or encourage all the fastest mountain
                  100-milers in the world to be there. It doesn't imply that all participants
                  are obligated to try to finish as quickly as possible. It only implies that
                  there are rules and it will be timed, and that the faster you go the more
                  you will be applauded (perhaps rewarded) by the organizers -- although of
                  course they can applaud lots of other dimensions in addition to speed.

                  3) Julien Chorier (nice name!) won the race not because his name was drawn
                  from a hat, but because he ran the fastest among all those who entered
                  according to the well-defined procedures. This is the same as any other
                  race. Nobody, however fast, can show up on the morning of the boston
                  marathon and race it without having followed all the proper procedures. Lots
                  of people *might* have been faster on any given day for any race (at least
                  any ultra - possibly not for a few olympic events - but who gets to decide
                  that?).

                  4) If a potential competitor is sick and can't race, does that mean the
                  winner was only a lucky 'winner'? What if a sponsor wants them to race
                  elsewhere? What if the fastest guy in the world misses his connecting flight
                  in chicago? What if I decide to put on a 5k tomorrow, with a $20k entry fee
                  and $1mil first prize (all comers gladly accepted, if you get this email in
                  time) and only eight people show up? Yes, Western States has a way for
                  [some] fast [50mi and 100k] runners to automatically qualify, and yes some
                  races in some years end up being more competitive than others, but it's all
                  on a continuum. Where exactly do you draw the line and why? How accessible
                  does it have to be? Isn't the winner simply the winner?

                  5) You and I have a better chance to get in to hardrock next year than
                  Kilian Jornet or Geoff Roes because we are being rewarded for having
                  participated in the past, and as an incentive system so that future entrants
                  are more likely to maintain a connection with the race over time. This is
                  what the organizers want; it does not contradict the definition of a race.
                  This is not fair if speed is the only measure of worth with respect to the
                  race, but it is quite fair if community is worth something. Ultimately the
                  choice comes down to values, which are not objectively determined. So whose
                  values carry the day? The people who are putting on the race, naturally.
                  Your values may be different, and just as legitimate (if less relevant), but
                  that doesn't make their values wrong.

                  Good luck to both of us (and everyone else) in next year's lottery.

                  cheers,
                  julian


                  On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Matt Mahoney <matmahoney@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Perhaps I misunderstand. If Hardrock is a "run" and not a "race", then why
                  > is there a clock at the finish line? And why do they publish a list of
                  > finishers and their times in order from fastest to slowest? And why are
                  > there trophies for the fastest runners? And why do we wear race numbers? And
                  > why are there cutoff times and a prescribed route and rules about pacers and
                  > crews and all these other things that determine whether or not your effort
                  > counts as a finish? Is it a race or not?
                  >
                  > Oh, I get it. Let's all congratulate Julien Chorier as the lucky winner for
                  > having his name drawn from a jar, vs. 8 or 10 guys who might have been
                  > faster but we'll never know.
                  >
                  > I know that I and 95% of the runners are just trying to beat the course and
                  > not each other. For a lot of people, just finishing a 5K is an
                  > accomplishment. That is why there are fitness walks where you get a T-shirt,
                  > a chance to work out, socialize, and eat afterward, but there is no clock,
                  > no awards, and no sorted list of finishers. So is Hardrock a race or a
                  > fitness walk?
                  >
                  > There are a lot of races where there are more people who want to run than
                  > there are spots available, such as the Boston and New York marathons, JFK
                  > 50, Ironman, Western States, and the Olympics. They all have different entry
                  > procedures. But what they all have in common is that they have a means to
                  > qualify so that if you are fast enough, you can get in without going through
                  > the lottery. Please note that I am suggesting a change that will make it
                  > harder for me to enter. I have 4 prior Hardrock finishes, mostly back of the
                  > pack. Why should I get 5 lottery tickets when someone like Killian Jornet,
                  > Anton Krupicka, Scott Jurek, or Goeff Roes would only get 1?
                  >
                  > Hardrock would have no trouble selling 140 "charity spots" for $2000 each.
                  > (The London marathon sells 80% of its 40,000 entries for a similar amount).
                  > I applaud the race committee to not succumbing to greed. But if we don't
                  > balance supply and demand by the laws of economics, then what I suggest is
                  > that the top 5% or top 5 finishers at one of the qualifying races, whichever
                  > is less, get an automatic entry. Everyone else would put their name on a
                  > multi-year waiting list. Enter any time, and you run when your name comes to
                  > the top.
                  >
                  > Opinions?
                  >
                  >
                  > -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
                  >
                  > >________________________________
                  >
                  > >From: Jean-Jacques d <jjda36618@...>
                  > >To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:14 PM
                  > >Subject: Re: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Horse crap to Popov and the rest of the "youth elitist
                  > movement:".
                  > >Since when has Hardrock's goal been to "ensure that everyone who
                  > enters, finishes"?
                  > >Jones and Grant and hundreds of young runners have a lifetime of
                  > experiences before them. Should they push all the older and aging runners
                  > aside and deprive them of a few more years of experiencing the joy of
                  > Hardrock?
                  > >As originally concieved Hardrock was not a "race" but a
                  > "run" to honor the miners of the area, not to furnish a contest
                  > where youth and speed are the goals.
                  > >What I hear is an echo of the moral morass of politics today where the
                  > rich get richer and the poor get more so. Curses on all who would defile
                  > Hardrock in the same manner.
                  > >Jean-Jacques d'Aquin
                  > >
                  > >________________________________
                  > >From: Michael Popov <michael@...>
                  > >To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:24 AM
                  > >Subject: [hr100] No balls, no levy for the next year.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >First of all, thank you for all your hard work at the race organization
                  > and
                  > >execution. Despite the challenging conditions, I enjoyed every bit of it,
                  > >and think that the conditions/trails could be more severe or hard - be it
                  > >elevation gain or the nature's kinks - it is what it is and everyone
                  > is in
                  > >the same boat. Actually, I think that two of aid stations were unnecessary
                  > >on the course - if you're running Hardrock, you need to be prepared to
                  > take
                  > >care of yourself on your own. From what I experienced - there could be
                  > more
                  > >vertical, more talus, more pressure on the cut-offs, more snow, and more
                  > >creek crossings - more fun! The will to finish gets so much stronger.
                  > >
                  > >I think that there should be a formula for the certain percentage of
                  > >starters who DNF'd in the last year to get them less points in the
                  > lottery
                  > >for the next year. That would eliminate the wannabees who ran the
                  > >qualifiers, but failed to finish the Hardrock on the first try, and also
                  > >eliminate the repeat runners who are ageing and who will likely to DNF
                  > again
                  > >and bump up the Hardrock DNF stats. One way to look at it is to see the
                  > >trends in the previous years, for example - if you DNF'd at HURT, and
                  > then
                  > >DNF'd at Hardrock at the same year, should you be having a chance at
                  > another
                  > >hard hundred miler unless you get your training straight? Maybe you should
                  > >you let your spot go to young prodigies, like Dakota Jones, or Joseph
                  > Grant.
                  > >
                  > >The bottom line is that requirements could be more severe, to ensure that
                  > >everyone who enters, finishes.
                  > >
                  > >Michael Popov
                  > >
                  > >Pacific Coast Trail Runs
                  > >
                  > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matt Mahoney
                  ... I am aware of the entry procedure. How would the results be different if the first 10 finishers put their name in a jar and we decide who gets the trophy
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 22, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Julian Jamison <julison@...> wrote:

                    >3) Julien Chorier (nice name!) won the race not because his name was drawn
                    >from a hat, but because he ran the fastest among all those who entered
                    >according to the well-defined procedures.

                    I am aware of the entry procedure. How would the results be different if the first 10 finishers put their name in a jar and we decide who gets the trophy by lottery, except that the other 9 don't get to run?

                    >5) You and I have a better chance to get in to hardrock next year than
                    >Kilian Jornet or Geoff Roes because we are being rewarded for having
                    >participated in the past, and as an incentive system so that future entrants
                    >are more likely to maintain a connection with the race over time. 


                    Sorry, that's BS. Some of the members of the race committee have run Hardrock 10 or more times. I know they can use any entry procedure they want, but I think it looks bad when they write the rules to favor themselves over faster runners.


                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...
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