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Re: [hr100] course change?

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  • Ulrich Kamm
    Hi Charlie, I have to leave in a minute. I don t know yet where the possibly forbidden area is. But there are so many mountains around Silverton - it
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 7 11:10 AM
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      Hi Charlie,

      I have to leave in a minute. I don't know yet where the possibly "forbidden"
      area is. But there are so many mountains around Silverton - it shouldn't be
      too difficult to create a new HR course. If detailed planning of such a
      change, if it becomes necessary already for this year's race, wouldn't be
      possible, let's do a low key event with very few people -like in the "good
      old days", with map and compass and only vry few aid stations (crews). I'm
      sure you it would be a lot of fun for you to design a new course.

      We got our Green Card 3 weeks ago.

      In a hurry,
      Ulli

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Charles T. Thorn" <thorn@...>
      To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: <cappis@...>; <spat@...>
      Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 11:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [hr100] course change?


      > Bob Boeder wrote:
      > >Anybody know anything about a proposed course change coming off Handies?
      >
      > Bob and All,
      >
      > My response has three parts. The first two address your question and why
      > the change. Part C is intended for mature audiences and you should NOT
      > feel obligated to read it. "DISCLAIMER:" What follows is my personnal
      > opinion and does not necessarily represent the opinions of anyone else.
      > It's also undoubtedly riddled with inaccuracies and prejudices that might
      > be rooted out in time.
      >
      > A. Short Answer:
      >
      > You're correct about the course change. We will be coming over the top of
      > Handies and then take the north ridge to the trail going east into Grizzly
      > Gulch, then down Grizzly to Burrows Park. From there we'll take the shelf
      > road to Sherman. That change adds some miles. We will subtract about two
      > miles by NOT going all the way through Ouray to the City Park. The Ouray
      > aid station will be on the south edge of town near or at Box Canyon Park.
      >
      > B. Now, you ask, "Why are we changing the course?"
      >
      > The answer is fairly long and still unfolding. I'll try to give a very
      > short version.
      >
      > Last summer, in Silverton and other communities across the San Juan
      > Mountains of Colorado, several community meetings were held to gauge local
      > support for Federal legislation that would create new Wilderness areas.
      > The Silverton meeting had representation from the Colorado Environmental
      > Coalition (CEC). AT that time and in email correspondence, CEC indicated
      > that they supported Hardrock being able to continue if this area were made
      > into a Wilderness. The San Juan Board of County Commissioners supported
      > the proposed wilderness with a few reservations. One of those
      reservations
      > was that the Hardrock be grandfathered.
      >
      > Just after the November election, the CEC, with absolutely no coordination
      > with the Hardrock organization, filed notice with the BLM that Hardrock
      > does not have an Environmental Assessment. According to Colorado BLM
      > edict, such an EA seems to be required for special use activities, such as
      > Hardrock, that go through a Wilderness Study Area, namely Handies WSA. No
      > serious informed person could conclude that Hardrock causes any long term
      > negative environmental impact and only neglible short term impact.
      > Hardrock folks found out about the CEC action within a month and have been
      > working with officials to get an EA in place. The EA is (or will soon be)
      > complete. I believe, based on feedback to date, that Hardrock will be run
      > in 2001 but there is a very slim chance we will be shut down if CEC blows
      > enough smoke. On the plus side is the fact that the political winds have
      > shifted the smoke since November so it's easier to see through.
      >
      > Because of the November timing of the CEC action and because there is a
      lot
      > of snow in the high country by November, there was no way that anyone,
      much
      > less an EA field team, could actually go up on the course before summer to
      > check out routes that are not "system" trails. Our Boulder Gulch route is
      > not a system trail. So, it became obvious that if we even wanted to run
      > Hardrock over Handies in 2001, we'd have to settle for a "system" trail.
      > The only candidate over Handies is the Grizzly Gulch trail.
      >
      > Subsequent informal talks with CEC offices lead me to believe that the CEC
      > intends to make sure the Handies WSA becomes a congressionally mandated
      > Wilderness Area and that they will work very hard to ensure the Hardrock
      is
      > not allowed to go through it or through any other Wilderness Area. Parts
      > of the Pole Creek drainage are also in the proposed Wilderness Areas
      > supported by CEC. In the future, if and when, this area becomes a
      > Wilderness Area, Hardrock will either not operate through it, or must have
      > specific legislative authorization to allow us to continue. CEC has
      > indicated they oppose such specific legislative language.
      >
      > C. Political Diatribe (REMEMBER, MATURE READERS ONLY!!!):
      >
      > I strongly support the concept of Wilderness as stated in the Wilderness
      > Act of 1964. Wilderness is crucial for the health of the individual and
      > the health of our society. We do the Hardrock because of wilderness. The
      > beauty and strength we enjoy up in the high country enriches our lives and
      > makes us more human. This enrichment doesn't fall off, like dried mud,
      > when we get back to the cities and to the everyday mundane and inane. The
      > fact that we have been there and experienced it stays with us and makes us
      > better people, spouses, parents, and citizens long after we've returned to
      > the lowlands of the everyday.
      >
      > To create WILDERNESS, we've employed lawyers, politicians, and a lot of
      > others who may never have experienced the highs we take as normal. I'm
      > thankful they've done it. I hope there is more designated WILDERNESS.
      > But, I've concluded that the Wilderness Act of 1964 is fundamentally
      > flawed. It does not allow a bunch of crazies like us to legally run
      around
      > in our underwear through the WILDERNESS if we have paid an entry fee or
      are
      > participating in a "competitive" event.
      >
      > Hardrock ran for nine years in ignorance, not knowing the nuances of the
      > beaurocracy and believing ourselves to be law abiding citizens enjoying
      the
      > outdoors and the wilderness. We took little more that photos and left a
      > few footprints that were quickly washed out by the hails of July. But
      last
      > year, the informed watchdogs noticed our criminal activity and, being the
      > good citizens they are, pointed it out to the officials.
      >
      > WHOA, suddenly, I'm feeling extremely light headed. It must be the height
      > of the soap box I'm on. I'm hyperventilating so, I'll end with three
      > suggestions.
      >
      > First, you can contact your elected officials and Interior Secretary
      Norton
      > to express concerns that the inmates are in charge of the asylum and we
      > expect that to change. Second, check out the web site
      > (http://www.ourcolorado.org/) of CEC and check out their "partners." Let
      > their "partners" know what you feel and do not support these "partners."
      > Third, check out the web site for a group that is trying to put some sense
      > into the Wilderness Act. It's at
      > http://www.mhjc.org/wilderness_act_reform_coalition.htm
      >
      > Thanks much for suffering through my ravings. I'm off the soap box and
      I'm
      > feeling much better, thank you. I'm gonna find my underwear and go run in
      > the mountains.
      >
      > Charlie Thorn
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Matt Mahoney
      ... It sounds like you re describing Nolan s 14. I think the new course through Grizzly Gulch is going to make the course faster (unfortunately). I climbed
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 7 6:21 PM
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        --- Ulrich Kamm <ultrawalk@...> wrote:
        > Hi Charlie,
        >
        > I have to leave in a minute. I don't know yet where
        > the possibly "forbidden"
        > area is. But there are so many mountains around
        > Silverton - it shouldn't be
        > too difficult to create a new HR course. If detailed
        > planning of such a
        > change, if it becomes necessary already for this
        > year's race, wouldn't be
        > possible, let's do a low key event with very few
        > people -like in the "good
        > old days", with map and compass and only vry few aid
        > stations (crews). I'm
        > sure you it would be a lot of fun for you to design
        > a new course.

        It sounds like you're describing Nolan's 14.

        I think the new course through Grizzly Gulch is going
        to make the course faster (unfortunately). I climbed
        Handies from that side a few years ago. The descent
        is runnable all the way into Sherman.


        =====
        -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...

        __________________________________________________
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        Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
        http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
      • Rich Limacher
        Well, friends, I am finally convinced. Our friend and head of the all-volunteer Trailmarking Army, Gen. Chas. T. Thorn, USTA, is as literarily powerful as he
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 7 8:12 PM
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          Well, friends, I am finally convinced. Our friend and head
          of the all-volunteer Trailmarking Army, Gen. Chas. T. Thorn,
          USTA, is as literarily powerful as he is climbingly strong.
          His so-called "diatribe" is, in fact, a most distinguished
          literary essay, and I am personally just as proud to read it
          as I am to climb behind him.

          But let's not kid ourselves. This rhetoric is long overdue.
          And I'm hoping those of us with "the writing bent" aren't
          too late to start lobbying.

          The way *I* see it (**DISCLAIMER**/personal-opinion-only all
          over this e-mail) the way the Colorado Environmental
          Coalition sees it is that they think they'll make a better
          name for themselves by ridding the wilderness of EVERYTHING
          than they think will accrue to their credit for exempting a
          "nutcase" event like the Hardrock Hundred Endurance Run.
          Having witnessed tinpan politics for years and embittered
          years as a local newspaper reporter, I've now reached a
          point where the mere mention of ANY newly elected or
          appointed political entity makes me want to puke. I think I
          know (in my non-humble opinion) the petty motive that drives
          these demigods, and I don't like it. In the end (also in my
          opinion) the work they do accrues only to their own benefit,
          and the common good be damned.

          In my opinion, any newly designated Wilderness Area amounts
          to a latter-day setting aside of an Indian reservation--and
          look at the enriched landscapes THEY've been given. Yes, I
          agree with Charlie that setting land like this aside is GOOD
          for the land. And frankly, when I see all the ruins and
          mine dumps and rusted junk our forefathers littered the San
          Juans with, I'm thankful silver mining has not continued. I
          believe, to paraphrase Lincoln, it is the lesser angels of
          our nature causing us to pollute our planet (but always in
          the name of "progress"); and all you need do is join
          Charlie's Army to see the job our grand- and
          great-grandpappies did to unleash their angels all over our
          nature.

          Here's an idea. Why doesn't the CEC *clean up* the place
          FIRST, and THEN declare it "off limits"? I'd pay good money
          to watch some cig-smoking politico lugging down a rusted ore
          cart from the abandoned Buffalo Boy Mine.

          I have a private theory. I'm thinking that Mars was once a
          vastly thriving civilization, whose inhabitants--in the name
          of "progress" certainly--poisoned their entire planet
          umpteen billion years ago. We see now what is left.
          Personally, I'd like not to leave our Earth in quite the
          same way. So, it is indeed good to preserve as much of the
          Wilderness as we possibly can.

          On the other hand, who are we preserving it for?

          If the ecological zealots don't want NOBODY trodding on
          their precious tracts, who's gonna see our birds and our
          bees? Or, how 'bout our elk and our moose? I say, if our
          Wilderness is ever to be appreciated and thereby preserved,
          we hikers and climbers had better be allowed to plod there.
          If it weren't for us, or Charlie and his panoramic camera,
          who would ever even know what is in fact being preserved?
          Do you think the politicians who rule as part of these
          committees and panels and coalitions and things EVER HIKE
          ANYWHERE??? I don't. I think they think they're protecting
          our environment by driving carbon monoxide-spewing Jeeps.

          And I would challenge every one of THEM (just as I used to
          demand access to every record in village halls citing the
          "Freedom of Information Act") to follow any of *us* and
          prove to any congress anywhere that WE are the cause of ANY
          damage whatsoever being done to their declared "Wilderness."

          --We don't shoot. (Except cameras.)
          --We don't bate-and-hook. (Except maybe wide-eyed naive
          post-marathon runners, such as the formerly huffy author of
          the piece you're reading right here.)
          --We don't trap. (Except maybe by omitting a couple trail
          markers now and then... :)
          --We don't remove samples for display cases or do taxidermy
          on any live thing for our "living" rooms. (Except maybe for
          the just-stuffed author of this thing here, who's now on
          display for his bride in his den. :)
          --We don't leave anything behind. (Except maybe a few swear
          words, and those are all aural--not carved or spray-painted
          onto the landscape.)
          --And we don't allow *just anyone* to do this. (The HRH
          organizers, however, might possibly have overlooked this
          principle by admitting yours truly. :)

          But the argument is always: "If we make an exception in
          YOUR case, we'll have to make exceptions in ALL cases."

          To which I submit: Not so! Says who? I allow as to how it
          is perfectly in keeping with keeping the Wilderness wild to
          allow wild folks like us to frolic there. It is my belief
          that ANYONE should be allowed to be wild in the Wilderness,
          provided they all do everything that's itemized two
          paragraphs above. No exceptions. If you don't shoot, fish,
          trap, kill, take, or leave anything, you and your qualified
          runners, hikers, and climbers ought to be free to move about
          the country.

          Is there anyone who wants to argue with this?

          You bet there is. They're called politicians. And if they
          owe favors to people who don't like us "running around all
          night in our underwear," and if *those* are the people who
          appointed or elected them or GAVE THEM MONEY to "help their
          campaigns" in the first place, who do you think is going to
          lose this fight?

          Frankly, I hope it doesn't happen; but I'm afraid, in the
          end, that it will. To borrow another line from Jim
          Morrison, "they got the guns, but we got the numbers." And
          *they* will win UNLESS we show them our numbers.

          If everyone reading this will write just ONE letter to a
          Congressman (or, of course, Congresswoman), our message
          might just have a chance of getting through. Why? Because
          Congress, and Colorado, will think that WE control more
          votes than this aforementioned "they" do.

          I, for one, have always believed in the power of words.
          Look at how many of 'em I just got YOU to read!

          Yes, in this case, the cathode ray tube is indeed mightier
          than the caucus. And our cards and letters to
          our--supposedly, so far--democratic representative
          government will do more good in the end than all the
          high-minded edicts, favors owed, and bribes received under
          the table can ever hope to accomplish by stopping the
          Hardrock Run.

          Does anyone remember a couple years back when nOrm & bOard
          urged everyone to write their Congresspeople in order to
          save No Hands Bridge? Well? Guess what. A whole lot of us
          did write and, last I heard, that bridge is still there.
          (I'll tell you for sure after I run Western States this
          summer.)

          So now let me take Charlie's place on the soapbox. Do NOT
          take this stuff lightly. If you or your children *ever*
          hope to run Hardrock, write NOW.

          Actually, you know what might be easier? Let's all "do
          tanning" and declare ourselves the Silverfeet Tribe. We'll
          petition the Bureau of Indian Affairs. We'll cite broken
          treaties (or hypocritical edicts). We'll crawl across these
          mountains on Wounded Knees. And who knows? They might just
          think the land is worthless and give it to us. We'll call
          our place: "The Thorn Reservation."

          Rich Limacher
          TheTroubadour@...


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Charles T. Thorn <thorn@...>
          To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: <cappis@...>; <spat@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 5:50 PM


          You can all please read it for yourselves.
          And thanks, Charlie, for putting it on my screen in the
          first place.
        • RLAFORME@LA-TIERRA.com
          Here ?hear? ! Sonny boy; You is certainly coming of age ! But I just don t get it, you are suddenly older than your dear old Ma. How does that work ? Will I
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 7 8:39 PM
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            Here ?hear? ! Sonny boy;
            You is certainly coming of age ! But I just don't get it, you are suddenly
            older than your dear old Ma. How does that work ? Will I be able to catch
            back up in June ? Will you wait for me ? If I send a letter to a politico ?
            I am one of the great procrastinators, but I promise i'll do it.
            will I see you at Zane Grey? Do you remember your ol' ma ?

            Ginny La Forme rlaforme@...
            325 Onate St. 505-753-3291
            Espanola, NM 87532 505-753-8340
          • RLAFORME@LA-TIERRA.com
            Sorry, meant to send that to Rich, not the group. Ginny La Forme rlaforme@la-tierra.com 325 Onate St. 505-753-3291
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 7 8:42 PM
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              Sorry,
              meant to send that to Rich, not the group.

              Ginny La Forme rlaforme@...
              325 Onate St. 505-753-3291
              Espanola, NM 87532 505-753-8340
            • robert boeder
              What the hell is this all about?
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 8 6:30 PM
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                What the hell is this all about?

                At 09:39 PM 3/7/2001 -0700, you wrote:
                >Here ?hear? ! Sonny boy;
                >You is certainly coming of age ! But I just don't get it, you are suddenly
                >older than your dear old Ma. How does that work ? Will I be able to catch
                >back up in June ? Will you wait for me ? If I send a letter to a politico ?
                >I am one of the great procrastinators, but I promise i'll do it.
                > will I see you at Zane Grey? Do you remember your ol' ma ?
                >
                >Ginny La Forme rlaforme@...
                >325 Onate St. 505-753-3291
                >Espanola, NM 87532 505-753-8340
                >
                >
                >
                >To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                >
                >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Rich Limacher
                Aw, hell, Bob... it s just a joke !!! ... [Explanation follows, but, as with every joke, once you ve explained it, you ve killed the humor. Let that serve
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 9 8:20 AM
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                  Aw, hell, Bob... it's just a "joke"!!!

                  :-)

                  [Explanation follows, but, as with every joke, once you've
                  explained it, you've killed the humor. Let that serve as a
                  *CAUTION* and *WARNING*. If you do not wish to subject
                  yourself to such unreasonable, long-winded explanation, stop
                  reading now. :-]

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: robert boeder <boedr@...>
                  To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 8:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hr100] course change?


                  > What the hell is this all about?
                  >
                  > At 09:39 PM 3/7/2001 -0700, you wrote:
                  > >Here ?hear? ! Sonny boy;

                  Here Ginny is assuming a motherly role. She actually is a
                  mother, of course, but not mine. Even though, of course, if
                  I were a slightly younger man and genetic engineering had
                  progressed (there's that term again) to the point where it
                  could be retroactive, I would certainly fix my genes to
                  align with hers so as to be biologically possible to be her
                  son. And then, dammit, watch out! My ultra finishes would
                  dramatically improve!


                  > >You is certainly coming of age !

                  Here Ginny is referring to my own biological nativity. It
                  is usually celebrated, if not on December 25th, then
                  certainly March 2.


                  > > But I just don't get it, you are suddenly
                  > >older than your dear old Ma. How does that work ?

                  Here she is indirectly referring to the biological fact that
                  she and I were actually born in the very same year. We may
                  not, at this point, wish to divulge which year that actually
                  was. We'd like you to believe, however, that it might
                  possibly have been 1975 or shortly thereafter.

                  The "being older than her" refers to our birth months. Mine
                  is March and hers is June (I think). Thus, in March of '75
                  I burst first upon the grand scene of Post-Vietnam-War
                  Enlightenment, and she followed a scant three months later.
                  The world has been a better place ever since.


                  > > Will I be able to catch
                  > > back up in June ?

                  Ah, yes. I believe now her birth month is June. And the
                  answer to her inquiry is an obvious "yes." This is due to
                  modern enlightened accountable society's penchant for
                  rounding. In my case, society rounds up, and in her case
                  rounds down. Thus, in June, we shall both be 26 years old.


                  > > Will you wait for me ?

                  Again, obviously, "yes" is the answer.


                  > > If I send a letter to a politico ?

                  Here Ginny is making a "bribe." She is offering to heed the
                  call of myself and others to begin a massive letter-writing
                  campaign to various and sundry pseudo-political entities in
                  Colorado, and Congress, to try like crazy either to exempt
                  or grandfather the Hardrock Hundred Endurance Run from this
                  dubiously proposed "Wilderness Study Area" that certain
                  pseudo-politico caucuses are proposing to ram down our
                  throats. Or, perhaps the cumulative effect of our
                  epistolary efforts will result in those cig-smoking fat cats
                  pretty much leaving us and the beautiful San Juan Mountain
                  Range alone.


                  > >I am one of the great procrastinators, but I promise i'll
                  do it.

                  Here Ginny is reaffirming her good intentions and steeling
                  her resolve to undertake a truly Herculean effort on her
                  part, and write a little letter. But, of course, she'll do
                  it later.


                  (C'mon, Ginny, smile! :-)


                  > > will I see you at Zane Grey?

                  Here she is alluding to the upcoming Zane Grey Highline
                  50-mile ultramarathon to be run somewhere in the remote
                  canyon wilderness areas of Arizona, obviously already
                  successfully grandfathered from any newly-appointed
                  pseudo-politicos and their zealous efforts to prevent
                  organized fee-collecting events from ever happening again in
                  their wild canyons.


                  > > Do you remember your ol' ma ?

                  Here again, Ginny is alluding to "our little joke." Which,
                  by now, WE HOPE YOU ALL "GET"!!!!!!!


                  Your badass black sheep of this particular family,

                  Rich
                  TheTroubleMaker @ politicalnightmare-dot-com
                • Curiel, Tyler
                  Rich, You re killing me.* I need to stop laughing and get back to work. See you at ZG! /TC *WARNING. This is a joke. My actual risk of death from reading your
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 9 8:28 AM
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                    Rich, You're killing me.* I need to stop laughing and get back to work. See
                    you at ZG! /TC

                    *WARNING. This is a joke. My actual risk of death from reading your post is
                    <0.0000000000001256334.
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