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Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

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  • Matt Mahoney
    ... atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery Here is a better idea. How about not allowing pacers? That way the race could support more runners.
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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      james varner wrote:
      > i like that idea steve(even though that would cost me a ticket) and how
      >about requiring volunteering at a hardrock aid station or pacing(50miles) at
      >hardrock
      atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery

      Here is a better idea. How about not allowing pacers? That way the race could
      support more runners. It also might cut down on the number of less qualified
      entries.

      Also, how about some extra allowance for the best runners so that a win or a
      course record actually means something? This is a race, after all, even if only
      the top runners treat it that way. Hardrock will never see a showdown between
      the likes of Krupicka, Matt Carpenter, and Killian Jornet because it is unlikely
      all of them could ever get in the lottery with just one ticket each. Make the
      standards clear, like a top 10 finish in a qualifying race in the last 2 years.
      As it is now, a Hardrock trophy just means you were lucky enough to get in and
      your faster competition was not. Who cares? If you are doing it just for the
      experience, then you can hike the course any time.

      Everyone else should go on a multi-year waiting list, starting with the wait
      list from this year. Enter any time, and your name goes on the end. If you can't
      make it during the year when your name comes up, then you go to the back of the
      line again.

      Steve Kral wrote:
      > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
      >ticket taken away for each such occurrence....

      Yeah, my 48:00:28 DNF in 2007 shows that I really suck at this. My fault for not
      using a crew, pacer, or drop bags.

      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Pero
      It s my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered a race . The idea is for people (I very very loosely call us runners) to enjoy the
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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        It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered a
        "race". The idea is for people (I very very loosely call us runners) to
        enjoy the San Juans in an Endurance event. It is named the Hardrock Hundred
        Endurance Run.
        The 48 hour cutoff is to give the participants plenty of time to get it done
        and still be able to find cover in the event of a storm. Sure, the faster
        runners do "race" each other, but I enjoy seeing John Dewalt come across the
        line bent at the waist or Jennifer Roach last year kissing the rock with
        tears streaming down her face with only minutes to spare....that's what
        Hardrock is all about.
        I can't imagine anyone devoting the energy to enter the lottery and then
        train for Hardrock without planning on finishing...I would hope if someone
        was planning on not running the whole run, then they would step aside and
        give the next wait luster their spot and pace instead.

        Now that the racing season is about over, everyone must be getting anxious
        about the lottery already ;-) Good to see the activity...

        See you in June!
        Steve (2 finishes out of 7 attempts)


        On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:45 AM, Matt Mahoney <matmahoney@...> wrote:


        Also, how about some extra allowance for the best runners so that a win or a

        course record actually means something? This is a race, after all, even if
        only
        the top runners treat it that way. Hardrock will never see a showdown
        between
        the likes of Krupicka, Matt Carpenter, and Killian Jornet because it is
        unlikely
        all of them could ever get in the lottery with just one ticket each. Make
        the
        standards clear, like a top 10 finish in a qualifying race in the last 2
        years.
        As it is now, a Hardrock trophy just means you were lucky enough to get in
        and
        your faster competition was not. Who cares? If you are doing it just for the

        experience, then you can hike the course any time.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Matt Mahoney
        ... Some people don t consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or jog it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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          Steve Pero wrote:
          > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
          >a "race".

          Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or jog
          it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
          afterward and not worry about the awards.

          Others look at Hardrock and see:
          - A start line
          - A finish line
          - A prescribed and marked course
          - A clock
          - An official says "go"
          - Finish results
          - Awards based on finish order
          which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would set
          a course record is irrelevant).

          And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
          issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
          runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had
          pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two
          deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure prize
          money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters when
          you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset by
          your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about his
          broken finger).

          IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
          didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run the
          whole thing.

          -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Don
          I ve never liked the basic unfairness of the weighted lottery I don t think anyone should have preferential treatment,Don Platt Sent from my iPhone On Oct
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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            I've never liked the basic unfairness of the "weighted" lottery I don' t think anyone should have preferential treatment,Don Platt

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Oct 21, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

            We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing,= which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to se= cond-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to ta= ke away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list e= xperiences.=20 (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose becom= e their official designation.) Chris from flat Florida Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral wrote: > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one t= icket taken away for each such occurrence.... > stevekral > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark wrote: >=20 > From: David Clark > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an app= lication for lottery? >=20 > Also- historically,
            what are the odds of actually getting in?=20 >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > David Clark >=20 > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition >=20 > Longmont >=20 > (C) 720-275-2197 >=20 > -Outreach Manager >=20 > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach >=20 > -RRCA Certified Running Coach >=20 > - Sent from my iPhone >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --lYd6vZmEvgw0fgrUKQjgghzBnPJSDRkF0BBv9SV Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
            As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.

            (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)

            Chris from flat Florida

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

            > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
            > stevekral
            > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
            > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
            > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
            >
            >
            >
            > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?
            >
            > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > David Clark
            >
            > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
            >
            > Longmont
            >
            > (C) 720-275-2197
            >
            > -Outreach Manager
            >
            > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
            >
            > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
            >
            > - Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • azsmokin
            I ve finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in 05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved my life. I
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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              I've finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in
              '05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved
              my life.

              I was blindsided by a condition called Metabolic Acidosis as I was
              descending to Ouray from Engineers. I slowly lost all muscle control and
              eventually could not stand on my own. Not a good place on the course to be
              in such bad shape. I was like a falling down drunk but my head felt fine.
              Tim had to hold me up by my packstraps as we slowly made our way to the 550
              tunnel to wait on the ambulance that Steve, who had caught up to us, had ran
              ahead to call for. The emergency room Doc said I was very lucky as the
              condition could be fatal if left untreated. He didn't have to mention the
              sudden stop into Bear Creek had I fallen off the trail.

              Was I trained enough for the course? I thought so.

              Did I know what I was getting into? I thought so.

              My wife really likes for me to use pacers now. I used 3 the last time.
              Besides, I want them to see what I get to see.



              Bob Bachani

              Tucson, AZ

              _____

              From: hr100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hr100@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
              Mahoney
              Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:08 AM
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds





              Steve Pero wrote:
              > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
              >a "race".

              Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or
              jog
              it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
              afterward and not worry about the awards.

              Others look at Hardrock and see:
              - A start line
              - A finish line
              - A prescribed and marked course
              - A clock
              - An official says "go"
              - Finish results
              - Awards based on finish order
              which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would
              set
              a course record is irrelevant).

              And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
              issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
              runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had

              pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two

              deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure
              prize
              money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters
              when
              you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset
              by
              your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about
              his
              broken finger).

              IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
              didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run
              the
              whole thing.

              -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@... <mailto:matmahoney%40yahoo.com>

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Twiggsc@aol.com
              Well put, Bob! I use pacers and treasure the time I spend with them. They are my good friends. Anyone who stands there offering encouragement while I puke is
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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                Well put, Bob!

                I use pacers and treasure the time I spend with them. They are my good friends. Anyone who stands there offering encouragement while I puke is more family than friend. However, I respect that my fellow Floridian, Matt, never uses them. I won't try to force a pacer on him, and I don't think he will try to take mine away.







                -----Original Message-----
                From: azsmokin <azsmokin@...>
                To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 10:59 am
                Subject: RE: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds





                I've finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in
                '05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved
                my life.

                I was blindsided by a condition called Metabolic Acidosis as I was
                descending to Ouray from Engineers. I slowly lost all muscle control and
                eventually could not stand on my own. Not a good place on the course to be
                in such bad shape. I was like a falling down drunk but my head felt fine.
                Tim had to hold me up by my packstraps as we slowly made our way to the 550
                tunnel to wait on the ambulance that Steve, who had caught up to us, had ran
                ahead to call for. The emergency room Doc said I was very lucky as the
                condition could be fatal if left untreated. He didn't have to mention the
                sudden stop into Bear Creek had I fallen off the trail.

                Was I trained enough for the course? I thought so.

                Did I know what I was getting into? I thought so.

                My wife really likes for me to use pacers now. I used 3 the last time.
                Besides, I want them to see what I get to see.

                Bob Bachani

                Tucson, AZ

                _____

                From: hr100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hr100@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
                Mahoney
                Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:08 AM
                To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                Steve Pero wrote:
                > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                >a "race".

                Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or
                jog
                it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                afterward and not worry about the awards.

                Others look at Hardrock and see:
                - A start line
                - A finish line
                - A prescribed and marked course
                - A clock
                - An official says "go"
                - Finish results
                - Awards based on finish order
                which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would
                set
                a course record is irrelevant).

                And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had

                pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two

                deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure
                prize
                money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters
                when
                you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset
                by
                your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about
                his
                broken finger).

                IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run
                the
                whole thing.

                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@... <mailto:matmahoney%40yahoo.com>;

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Steve Kral
                I wholly agree Chris, controversial to say the least is an understatement. Still, abolishing slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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                  I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all controversial ideas in their day...one even started a war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive ideas.

                  --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                  From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                  Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                  To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com" <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
















                   









                  As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.



                  (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)



                  Chris from flat Florida



                  Sent from my iPhone



                  On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



                  > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....

                  > stevekral

                  > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:

                  >

                  > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                  > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                  > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                  > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?

                  >

                  > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?

                  >

                  > Thanks.

                  >

                  > David Clark

                  >

                  > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

                  >

                  > Longmont

                  >

                  > (C) 720-275-2197

                  >

                  > -Outreach Manager

                  >

                  > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

                  >

                  > -RRCA Certified Running Coach

                  >

                  > - Sent from my iPhone

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >

                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Bur
                  Interesting. How are you defining progressive here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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                    Interesting.

                    How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).

                    As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.

                    In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.

                    Best,
                    Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)
                    Kensington, MD

                    --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

                    > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                    > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                    > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial
                    > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing
                    > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                    > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a
                    > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive
                    > ideas.
                    >
                    > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                    > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"
                    > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >    
                    >      
                    >      
                    >       As I understand it now, dnf's get no
                    > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further
                    > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision
                    > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                    > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other
                    > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to
                    > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets
                    > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list
                    > experiences.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I
                    > now propose become their official designation.)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Chris from flat Florida
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the
                    > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such
                    > occurrence....
                    >
                    > > stevekral
                    >
                    > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                    >
                    > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                    >
                    > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > 
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be
                    > able to submit an application for lottery?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually
                    > getting in?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Thanks.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > David Clark
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Longmont
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > (C) 720-275-2197
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > -Outreach Manager
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > - Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
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                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                    >    
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                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
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                  • Andy Hewat
                    I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 23, 2010
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                      I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I could see the benefit of saving a handful of spots for the elite to ensure high quality at the pointy end but that would make it just that little bit tougher for the rest of us. I do find myself looking on enviously at those 5 time finishers at the presentation.
                      Andy (3 from 3)


                      --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Michael Bur <mjcbur@...> wrote:

                      From: Michael Bur <mjcbur@...>
                      Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:33 AM
















                       











                      Interesting.



                      How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).



                      As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.



                      In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.



                      Best,

                      Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)

                      Kensington, MD



                      --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



                      > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>

                      > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                      > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                      > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM

                      > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial

                      > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing

                      > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all

                      > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a

                      > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive

                      > ideas.

                      >

                      > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>

                      > wrote:

                      >

                      > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>

                      > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                      > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"

                      > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>

                      > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >  

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >  

                      >

                      >

                      >    

                      >      

                      >      

                      >       As I understand it now, dnf's get no

                      > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further

                      > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision

                      > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of

                      > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other

                      > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to

                      > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets

                      > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list

                      > experiences.

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I

                      > now propose become their official designation.)

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Chris from flat Florida

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Sent from my iPhone

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>

                      > wrote:

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the

                      > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such

                      > occurrence....

                      >

                      > > stevekral

                      >

                      > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                      > wrote:

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                      >

                      > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                      >

                      > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                      >

                      > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > 

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be

                      > able to submit an application for lottery?

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually

                      > getting in?

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Thanks.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > David Clark

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Longmont

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > (C) 720-275-2197

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > -Outreach Manager

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > - Sent from my iPhone

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >    

                      >      

                      >

                      >    

                      >    

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

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                      >  

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                      >

                      >

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                      >

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                      >

                      >

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                      >      

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > ------------------------------------

                      >

                      > To Post a message, send it to:   hr100@...

                      >

                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!

                      > Groups Links

                      >

                      >

                      >     hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                      >

                      >

                      >






























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chris Twiggs
                      You ll have that five timer finishing jacket in no time, Andy. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 23, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        You'll have that five timer finishing jacket in no time, Andy.

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Oct 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Andy Hewat <hewat.andy@...> wrote:

                        > I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I could see the benefit of saving a handful of spots for the elite to ensure high quality at the pointy end but that would make it just that little bit tougher for the rest of us. I do find myself looking on enviously at those 5 time finishers at the presentation.
                        > Andy (3 from 3)
                        >
                        > --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Michael Bur <mjcbur@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Michael Bur <mjcbur@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                        > Received: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:33 AM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Interesting.
                        >
                        > How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).
                        >
                        > As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.
                        >
                        > In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.
                        >
                        > Best,
                        >
                        > Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)
                        >
                        > Kensington, MD
                        >
                        > --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                        >
                        > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        >
                        > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                        >
                        > > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial
                        >
                        > > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing
                        >
                        > > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                        >
                        > > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a
                        >
                        > > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive
                        >
                        > > ideas.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                        >
                        > > wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                        >
                        > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        >
                        > > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"
                        >
                        > > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no
                        >
                        > > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further
                        >
                        > > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision
                        >
                        > > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                        >
                        > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other
                        >
                        > > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to
                        >
                        > > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets
                        >
                        > > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list
                        >
                        > > experiences.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I
                        >
                        > > now propose become their official designation.)
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Chris from flat Florida
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                        >
                        > > wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the
                        >
                        > > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such
                        >
                        > > occurrence....
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > stevekral
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                        >
                        > > wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be
                        >
                        > > able to submit an application for lottery?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually
                        >
                        > > getting in?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Thanks.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > David Clark
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Longmont
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > (C) 720-275-2197
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > -Outreach Manager
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > - Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
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                        > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!
                        >
                        > > Groups Links
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


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