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Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

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  • Chris Twiggs
    I am very surprised to hear that, Steve. I have never heard such a comment from any hardrocker. The oldest of them all, John DeWalt, chose not to come this
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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      I am very surprised to hear that, Steve. I have never heard such a comment from any hardrocker. The oldest of them all, John DeWalt, chose not to come this year because he was sick and knew he'd likely not finish. Please don't reveal the name of the SOB you overheard. I hold all who have started HR in high esteem whether they finished or not, and I want nothing to tarnish that.

      Chris

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

      > Chris,
      > I'm not sure who makes up your 'we all' group, but I once heard a Hardrock runner first hand discuss starting with no intent to finish. Had something to do with being old and not caring how many years younger runners with more opportunities had to wait.
      > James,
      > Nice idea also, but would be quite beyond one's control if he/she came to Hardrock to pace 50 miles and the runner dropped. Still, in any given year, quite a few runners are out there without pacers...maybe they don't want one!steve
      >
      > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Deb P <mtnrunner02@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
      > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
      > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:46 PM
      >
      > that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
      > awhile. I agree..
      > wait lusters! ha!!
      >
      > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
      > > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
      > > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
      > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
      > > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
      > > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
      > > wait list experiences.
      > >
      > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
      > > become their official designation.)
      > >
      > > Chris from flat Florida
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPhone
      > >
      > >
      > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
      > > wrote:
      > >
      > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
      > > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
      > > > stevekral
      > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
      > > >
      > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
      > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
      > > application for lottery?
      > > >
      > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks.
      > > >
      > > > David Clark
      > > >
      > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
      > > >
      > > > Longmont
      > > >
      > > > (C) 720-275-2197
      > > >
      > > > -Outreach Manager
      > > >
      > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
      > > >
      > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
      > > >
      > > > - Sent from my iPhone
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
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      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chris Twiggs
      Joe Prusaitis did it. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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        Joe Prusaitis did it.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:13 PM, tedes12@... wrote:

        > Man after doing Hardrock one time I see what the fuss is all about!!! It is truly a one-of-a-kind ultra. I hope I make it in a second year.
        >
        > Have you ever heard of anyone running both Hardrock and Badwater in the same year. If so did they finish either or both?
        > Terry Sentinella
        > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
        > Sender: hr100@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:46:24
        > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
        > Reply-To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
        >
        > that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
        > awhile. I agree..
        > wait lusters! ha!!
        >
        > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
        > > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
        > > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
        > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
        > > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
        > > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
        > > wait list experiences.
        > >
        > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
        > > become their official designation.)
        > >
        > > Chris from flat Florida
        > >
        > > Sent from my iPhone
        > >
        > >
        > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
        > > wrote:
        > >
        > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
        > > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
        > > > stevekral
        > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
        > > >
        > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
        > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
        > > application for lottery?
        > > >
        > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks.
        > > >
        > > > David Clark
        > > >
        > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
        > > >
        > > > Longmont
        > > >
        > > > (C) 720-275-2197
        > > >
        > > > -Outreach Manager
        > > >
        > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
        > > >
        > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
        > > >
        > > > - Sent from my iPhone
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
        >
        >
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        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chris Twiggs
        I remember telling Joe that BW seemed like the exact opposite of what I love about HR. He said, It is. That s part of the challenge. . That was the moment I
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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          I remember telling Joe that BW seemed like the exact opposite of what I love about HR. He said, "It is. That's part of the challenge.". That was the moment I started thinking about BW. However, I can't see giving up HR, so if I ever do it, it will have to be a double.

          Chris

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Oct 21, 2010, at 11:41 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

          > Joe Prusaitis did it.
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:13 PM, tedes12@... wrote:
          >
          > > Man after doing Hardrock one time I see what the fuss is all about!!! It is truly a one-of-a-kind ultra. I hope I make it in a second year.
          > >
          > > Have you ever heard of anyone running both Hardrock and Badwater in the same year. If so did they finish either or both?
          > > Terry Sentinella
          > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
          > > Sender: hr100@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:46:24
          > > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Reply-To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
          > >
          > > that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
          > > awhile. I agree..
          > > wait lusters! ha!!
          > >
          > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
          > > > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
          > > > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
          > > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
          > > > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
          > > > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
          > > > wait list experiences.
          > > >
          > > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
          > > > become their official designation.)
          > > >
          > > > Chris from flat Florida
          > > >
          > > > Sent from my iPhone
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
          > > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
          > > > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
          > > > > stevekral
          > > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
          > > > >
          > > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
          > > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
          > > > application for lottery?
          > > > >
          > > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks.
          > > > >
          > > > > David Clark
          > > > >
          > > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
          > > > >
          > > > > Longmont
          > > > >
          > > > > (C) 720-275-2197
          > > > >
          > > > > -Outreach Manager
          > > > >
          > > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
          > > > >
          > > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
          > > > >
          > > > > - Sent from my iPhone
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
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          > > >
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          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matt Mahoney
          ... atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery Here is a better idea. How about not allowing pacers? That way the race could support more runners.
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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            james varner wrote:
            > i like that idea steve(even though that would cost me a ticket) and how
            >about requiring volunteering at a hardrock aid station or pacing(50miles) at
            >hardrock
            atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery

            Here is a better idea. How about not allowing pacers? That way the race could
            support more runners. It also might cut down on the number of less qualified
            entries.

            Also, how about some extra allowance for the best runners so that a win or a
            course record actually means something? This is a race, after all, even if only
            the top runners treat it that way. Hardrock will never see a showdown between
            the likes of Krupicka, Matt Carpenter, and Killian Jornet because it is unlikely
            all of them could ever get in the lottery with just one ticket each. Make the
            standards clear, like a top 10 finish in a qualifying race in the last 2 years.
            As it is now, a Hardrock trophy just means you were lucky enough to get in and
            your faster competition was not. Who cares? If you are doing it just for the
            experience, then you can hike the course any time.

            Everyone else should go on a multi-year waiting list, starting with the wait
            list from this year. Enter any time, and your name goes on the end. If you can't
            make it during the year when your name comes up, then you go to the back of the
            line again.

            Steve Kral wrote:
            > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
            >ticket taken away for each such occurrence....

            Yeah, my 48:00:28 DNF in 2007 shows that I really suck at this. My fault for not
            using a crew, pacer, or drop bags.

            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve Pero
            It s my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered a race . The idea is for people (I very very loosely call us runners) to enjoy the
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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              It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered a
              "race". The idea is for people (I very very loosely call us runners) to
              enjoy the San Juans in an Endurance event. It is named the Hardrock Hundred
              Endurance Run.
              The 48 hour cutoff is to give the participants plenty of time to get it done
              and still be able to find cover in the event of a storm. Sure, the faster
              runners do "race" each other, but I enjoy seeing John Dewalt come across the
              line bent at the waist or Jennifer Roach last year kissing the rock with
              tears streaming down her face with only minutes to spare....that's what
              Hardrock is all about.
              I can't imagine anyone devoting the energy to enter the lottery and then
              train for Hardrock without planning on finishing...I would hope if someone
              was planning on not running the whole run, then they would step aside and
              give the next wait luster their spot and pace instead.

              Now that the racing season is about over, everyone must be getting anxious
              about the lottery already ;-) Good to see the activity...

              See you in June!
              Steve (2 finishes out of 7 attempts)


              On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:45 AM, Matt Mahoney <matmahoney@...> wrote:


              Also, how about some extra allowance for the best runners so that a win or a

              course record actually means something? This is a race, after all, even if
              only
              the top runners treat it that way. Hardrock will never see a showdown
              between
              the likes of Krupicka, Matt Carpenter, and Killian Jornet because it is
              unlikely
              all of them could ever get in the lottery with just one ticket each. Make
              the
              standards clear, like a top 10 finish in a qualifying race in the last 2
              years.
              As it is now, a Hardrock trophy just means you were lucky enough to get in
              and
              your faster competition was not. Who cares? If you are doing it just for the

              experience, then you can hike the course any time.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Matt Mahoney
              ... Some people don t consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or jog it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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                Steve Pero wrote:
                > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                >a "race".

                Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or jog
                it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                afterward and not worry about the awards.

                Others look at Hardrock and see:
                - A start line
                - A finish line
                - A prescribed and marked course
                - A clock
                - An official says "go"
                - Finish results
                - Awards based on finish order
                which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would set
                a course record is irrelevant).

                And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had
                pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two
                deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure prize
                money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters when
                you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset by
                your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about his
                broken finger).

                IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run the
                whole thing.

                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Don
                I ve never liked the basic unfairness of the weighted lottery I don t think anyone should have preferential treatment,Don Platt Sent from my iPhone On Oct
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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                  I've never liked the basic unfairness of the "weighted" lottery I don' t think anyone should have preferential treatment,Don Platt

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Oct 21, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                  We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing,= which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to se= cond-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to ta= ke away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list e= xperiences.=20 (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose becom= e their official designation.) Chris from flat Florida Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral wrote: > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one t= icket taken away for each such occurrence.... > stevekral > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark wrote: >=20 > From: David Clark > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an app= lication for lottery? >=20 > Also- historically,
                  what are the odds of actually getting in?=20 >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > David Clark >=20 > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition >=20 > Longmont >=20 > (C) 720-275-2197 >=20 > -Outreach Manager >=20 > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach >=20 > -RRCA Certified Running Coach >=20 > - Sent from my iPhone >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --lYd6vZmEvgw0fgrUKQjgghzBnPJSDRkF0BBv9SV Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
                  As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.

                  (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)

                  Chris from flat Florida

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

                  > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                  > stevekral
                  > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                  > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                  > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?
                  >
                  > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > David Clark
                  >
                  > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                  >
                  > Longmont
                  >
                  > (C) 720-275-2197
                  >
                  > -Outreach Manager
                  >
                  > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                  >
                  > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                  >
                  > - Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • azsmokin
                  I ve finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in 05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved my life. I
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
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                    I've finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in
                    '05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved
                    my life.

                    I was blindsided by a condition called Metabolic Acidosis as I was
                    descending to Ouray from Engineers. I slowly lost all muscle control and
                    eventually could not stand on my own. Not a good place on the course to be
                    in such bad shape. I was like a falling down drunk but my head felt fine.
                    Tim had to hold me up by my packstraps as we slowly made our way to the 550
                    tunnel to wait on the ambulance that Steve, who had caught up to us, had ran
                    ahead to call for. The emergency room Doc said I was very lucky as the
                    condition could be fatal if left untreated. He didn't have to mention the
                    sudden stop into Bear Creek had I fallen off the trail.

                    Was I trained enough for the course? I thought so.

                    Did I know what I was getting into? I thought so.

                    My wife really likes for me to use pacers now. I used 3 the last time.
                    Besides, I want them to see what I get to see.



                    Bob Bachani

                    Tucson, AZ

                    _____

                    From: hr100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hr100@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
                    Mahoney
                    Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:08 AM
                    To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds





                    Steve Pero wrote:
                    > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                    >a "race".

                    Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or
                    jog
                    it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                    afterward and not worry about the awards.

                    Others look at Hardrock and see:
                    - A start line
                    - A finish line
                    - A prescribed and marked course
                    - A clock
                    - An official says "go"
                    - Finish results
                    - Awards based on finish order
                    which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would
                    set
                    a course record is irrelevant).

                    And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                    issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                    runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had

                    pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two

                    deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure
                    prize
                    money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters
                    when
                    you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset
                    by
                    your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about
                    his
                    broken finger).

                    IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                    didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run
                    the
                    whole thing.

                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@... <mailto:matmahoney%40yahoo.com>

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Twiggsc@aol.com
                    Well put, Bob! I use pacers and treasure the time I spend with them. They are my good friends. Anyone who stands there offering encouragement while I puke is
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Well put, Bob!

                      I use pacers and treasure the time I spend with them. They are my good friends. Anyone who stands there offering encouragement while I puke is more family than friend. However, I respect that my fellow Floridian, Matt, never uses them. I won't try to force a pacer on him, and I don't think he will try to take mine away.







                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: azsmokin <azsmokin@...>
                      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 10:59 am
                      Subject: RE: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds





                      I've finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in
                      '05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved
                      my life.

                      I was blindsided by a condition called Metabolic Acidosis as I was
                      descending to Ouray from Engineers. I slowly lost all muscle control and
                      eventually could not stand on my own. Not a good place on the course to be
                      in such bad shape. I was like a falling down drunk but my head felt fine.
                      Tim had to hold me up by my packstraps as we slowly made our way to the 550
                      tunnel to wait on the ambulance that Steve, who had caught up to us, had ran
                      ahead to call for. The emergency room Doc said I was very lucky as the
                      condition could be fatal if left untreated. He didn't have to mention the
                      sudden stop into Bear Creek had I fallen off the trail.

                      Was I trained enough for the course? I thought so.

                      Did I know what I was getting into? I thought so.

                      My wife really likes for me to use pacers now. I used 3 the last time.
                      Besides, I want them to see what I get to see.

                      Bob Bachani

                      Tucson, AZ

                      _____

                      From: hr100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hr100@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
                      Mahoney
                      Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:08 AM
                      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                      Steve Pero wrote:
                      > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                      >a "race".

                      Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or
                      jog
                      it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                      afterward and not worry about the awards.

                      Others look at Hardrock and see:
                      - A start line
                      - A finish line
                      - A prescribed and marked course
                      - A clock
                      - An official says "go"
                      - Finish results
                      - Awards based on finish order
                      which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would
                      set
                      a course record is irrelevant).

                      And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                      issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                      runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had

                      pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two

                      deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure
                      prize
                      money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters
                      when
                      you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset
                      by
                      your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about
                      his
                      broken finger).

                      IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                      didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run
                      the
                      whole thing.

                      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@... <mailto:matmahoney%40yahoo.com>;

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Steve Kral
                      I wholly agree Chris, controversial to say the least is an understatement. Still, abolishing slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all controversial ideas in their day...one even started a war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive ideas.

                        --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                        From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                        Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com" <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
















                         









                        As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.



                        (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)



                        Chris from flat Florida



                        Sent from my iPhone



                        On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



                        > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....

                        > stevekral

                        > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                        > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                        > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                        > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?

                        >

                        > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?

                        >

                        > Thanks.

                        >

                        > David Clark

                        >

                        > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

                        >

                        > Longmont

                        >

                        > (C) 720-275-2197

                        >

                        > -Outreach Manager

                        >

                        > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

                        >

                        > -RRCA Certified Running Coach

                        >

                        > - Sent from my iPhone

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Bur
                        Interesting. How are you defining progressive here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Interesting.

                          How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).

                          As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.

                          In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.

                          Best,
                          Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)
                          Kensington, MD

                          --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

                          > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                          > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                          > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial
                          > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing
                          > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                          > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a
                          > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive
                          > ideas.
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                          > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"
                          > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >    
                          >      
                          >      
                          >       As I understand it now, dnf's get no
                          > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further
                          > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision
                          > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                          > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other
                          > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to
                          > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets
                          > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list
                          > experiences.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I
                          > now propose become their official designation.)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Chris from flat Florida
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the
                          > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such
                          > occurrence....
                          >
                          > > stevekral
                          >
                          > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                          >
                          > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                          >
                          > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > 
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be
                          > able to submit an application for lottery?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually
                          > getting in?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Thanks.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > David Clark
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Longmont
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > (C) 720-275-2197
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > -Outreach Manager
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > - Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >    
                          >      
                          >
                          >    
                          >    
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >      
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to:   hr100@...
                          >
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!
                          > Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >     hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Andy Hewat
                          I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 23, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I could see the benefit of saving a handful of spots for the elite to ensure high quality at the pointy end but that would make it just that little bit tougher for the rest of us. I do find myself looking on enviously at those 5 time finishers at the presentation.
                            Andy (3 from 3)


                            --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Michael Bur <mjcbur@...> wrote:

                            From: Michael Bur <mjcbur@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:33 AM
















                             











                            Interesting.



                            How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).



                            As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.



                            In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.



                            Best,

                            Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)

                            Kensington, MD



                            --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



                            > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>

                            > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                            > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                            > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM

                            > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial

                            > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing

                            > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all

                            > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a

                            > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive

                            > ideas.

                            >

                            > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>

                            > wrote:

                            >

                            > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>

                            > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                            > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"

                            > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>

                            > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >  

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >  

                            >

                            >

                            >    

                            >      

                            >      

                            >       As I understand it now, dnf's get no

                            > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further

                            > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision

                            > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of

                            > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other

                            > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to

                            > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets

                            > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list

                            > experiences.

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I

                            > now propose become their official designation.)

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Chris from flat Florida

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Sent from my iPhone

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>

                            > wrote:

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the

                            > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such

                            > occurrence....

                            >

                            > > stevekral

                            >

                            > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                            > wrote:

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                            >

                            > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                            >

                            > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                            >

                            > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > 

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be

                            > able to submit an application for lottery?

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually

                            > getting in?

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Thanks.

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > David Clark

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Longmont

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > (C) 720-275-2197

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > -Outreach Manager

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > - Sent from my iPhone

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >    

                            >      

                            >

                            >    

                            >    

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >  

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >      

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > ------------------------------------

                            >

                            > To Post a message, send it to:   hr100@...

                            >

                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!

                            > Groups Links

                            >

                            >

                            >     hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                            >

                            >

                            >






























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Chris Twiggs
                            You ll have that five timer finishing jacket in no time, Andy. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 23, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              You'll have that five timer finishing jacket in no time, Andy.

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Oct 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Andy Hewat <hewat.andy@...> wrote:

                              > I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I could see the benefit of saving a handful of spots for the elite to ensure high quality at the pointy end but that would make it just that little bit tougher for the rest of us. I do find myself looking on enviously at those 5 time finishers at the presentation.
                              > Andy (3 from 3)
                              >
                              > --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Michael Bur <mjcbur@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Michael Bur <mjcbur@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                              > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:33 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Interesting.
                              >
                              > How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).
                              >
                              > As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.
                              >
                              > In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.
                              >
                              > Best,
                              >
                              > Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)
                              >
                              > Kensington, MD
                              >
                              > --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                              >
                              > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                              >
                              > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                              >
                              > > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial
                              >
                              > > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing
                              >
                              > > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                              >
                              > > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a
                              >
                              > > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive
                              >
                              > > ideas.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                              >
                              > > wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                              >
                              > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                              >
                              > > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"
                              >
                              > > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no
                              >
                              > > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further
                              >
                              > > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision
                              >
                              > > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                              >
                              > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other
                              >
                              > > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to
                              >
                              > > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets
                              >
                              > > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list
                              >
                              > > experiences.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I
                              >
                              > > now propose become their official designation.)
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Chris from flat Florida
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                              >
                              > > wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the
                              >
                              > > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such
                              >
                              > > occurrence....
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > stevekral
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                              >
                              > > wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be
                              >
                              > > able to submit an application for lottery?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually
                              >
                              > > getting in?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Thanks.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > David Clark
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Longmont
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > (C) 720-275-2197
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > -Outreach Manager
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > - Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
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                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!
                              >
                              > > Groups Links
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >


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