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Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

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  • Bruce Grant
    If you re looking for rough numbers, here s the odds from 2006 (hey, you said historical :-) # tickets chance 1 20.0% 2 36.0% 3 48.8% 4
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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      If you're looking for rough numbers, here's the odds from 2006 (hey, you
      said "historical" :-)

      # tickets chance
      1 20.0%
      2 36.0%
      3 48.8%
      4 59.0%
      5 67.2%
      6 73.8%
      7 79.0%
      8 83.1%

      Odds for any year depend on how many entries are received, and how many
      previous finishers try to enter (they get more tickets in the pot).
      The trend is that the odds are lowering all the time - I recall the 1-ticket
      chance being around 15% more recently - so you have to adjust all the above
      numbers down a fair bit

      Ultimately, the odds do nothing but add anxiety, so why sweat it? Just don't
      be late with your entry, and like everyone else, find out if you're in when
      the draw happens around the beginning of February.

      Waitlist...like Deb says, the first 20 will pretty much get in, but it may
      stray towards the upper 20's towards the end. And yes, if you're really
      keen, be there in Silverton ready to race because weird things can happen.
      At least if you are there, you can do trail work to improve your odds for
      next year.

      Badwater has a distinctly different entry methodology, so I wouldn't even
      start to compare the two races. Actually, that goes for the entire event as
      well....

      Bruce


      On 21 October 2010 15:44, Deb's Gmail <mtnrunner02@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hi Dave...
      >
      > It's a lottery.. so there is always a chance. Numbers up to about 20 on
      > the wait list typically have a pretty good chance of
      > getting in, though it might be at the last minute ( I could tell you a
      > story about THAT!), so you would want to actually be in town
      > ready to go just in case.
      >
      > As far as registration, entries are collected until the Board meets in
      > January, when the lottery takes place, so there is no rush to get it in
      > on the first day. As long as they get your entry
      > by the specified date before the Board meeting, then that's all that
      > matters.
      > good luck,
      > Deb
      >
      > On 10/21/2010 4:24 PM, David Clark wrote:
      > >
      > > Clarification:
      > >
      > > I know on the website is says "late October or early November" for
      > > registration
      > >
      > > I was looking for a bit of "inside" info... ; )
      > >
      > > And really would like to hear from people on historical chances of
      > > getting in.
      > > Do many people on wait list get in?
      > >
      > > If so, is it common? Is it like Badwater, where it's almost hopeless?
      > >
      > > David Clark
      > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
      > > Longmont
      > > (C) 720-275-2197
      > >
      > > -Outreach Manager
      > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
      > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
      > >
      > > - Sent from my iPhone
      > >
      > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Shad Mika <shadmika@...<shadmika%40gmail.com>
      > > <mailto:shadmika%40gmail.com <shadmika%2540gmail.com>>> wrote:
      > >
      > > > It is all on the website dude.
      > > >
      > > > Shad
      > > >
      > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:03 PM, David Clark
      > > <irishsailsman@... <irishsailsman%40comcast.net> <mailto:
      > irishsailsman%40comcast.net <irishsailsman%2540comcast.net>>> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit
      > > an application for lottery?
      > > >
      > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks.
      > > >
      > > > David Clark
      > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
      > > > Longmont
      > > > (C) 720-275-2197
      > > >
      > > > -Outreach Manager
      > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
      > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
      > > >
      > > > - Sent from my iPhone
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Shad
      > > >
      > > > "To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift."
      > > -Steve Prefontaine
      > > >
      > > > www.shadmika.blogspot.com
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chris Twiggs
      It s not almost hopeless. Blake Woods usually sends out an email outlining the previous year s chances and his best guess for the upcoming year, but naturally
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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        It's not almost hopeless. Blake Woods usually sends out an email outlining the previous year's chances and his best guess for the upcoming year, but naturally no one knows until all the applications are in.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Oct 21, 2010, at 6:24 PM, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:

        > Clarification:
        >
        > I know on the website is says "late October or early November" for registration
        >
        > I was looking for a bit of "inside" info... ; )
        >
        > And really would like to hear from people on historical chances of getting in.
        > Do many people on wait list get in?
        >
        > If so, is it common? Is it like Badwater, where it's almost hopeless?
        >
        > David Clark
        > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
        > Longmont
        > (C) 720-275-2197
        >
        > -Outreach Manager
        > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
        > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
        >
        > - Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > On Oct 21, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Shad Mika <shadmika@...> wrote:
        >
        > > It is all on the website dude.
        > >
        > > Shad
        > >
        > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:03 PM, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?
        > >
        > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
        > >
        > > Thanks.
        > >
        > > David Clark
        > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
        > > Longmont
        > > (C) 720-275-2197
        > >
        > > -Outreach Manager
        > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
        > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
        > >
        > > - Sent from my iPhone
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Shad
        > >
        > > "To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." -Steve Prefontaine
        > >
        > > www.shadmika.blogspot.com
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Steve Kral
        They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence.... stevekral ... From: David Clark
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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          They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
          stevekral
          --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:

          From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
          Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
          To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
















           









          Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?



          Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?



          Thanks.



          David Clark

          Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

          Longmont

          (C) 720-275-2197



          -Outreach Manager

          -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

          -RRCA Certified Running Coach



          - Sent from my iPhone



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Twiggs
          As I understand it now, dnf s get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf ers would be a controversial board decision to
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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            As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.

            (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)

            Chris from flat Florida

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

            > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
            > stevekral
            > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
            > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
            > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
            >
            >
            >
            > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?
            >
            > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > David Clark
            >
            > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
            >
            > Longmont
            >
            > (C) 720-275-2197
            >
            > -Outreach Manager
            >
            > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
            >
            > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
            >
            > - Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • james varner
            i like that idea steve(even though that would cost me a ticket) and how about requiring volunteering at a hardrock aid station or pacing(50miles) at hardrock
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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              i like that idea steve(even though that would cost me a ticket) and how about
              requiring volunteering at a hardrock aid station or pacing(50miles) at hardrock
              atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery-- this would help to
              eliminate those who aren't truly committed and would better prepare the possible
              entrants for the unique challenges of the race resulting in a higher finisher
              rate.

              james varnerRainshadow Running
              www.rainshadowrunning.com




              ________________________________
              From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, October 21, 2010 5:34:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds


              They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket
              taken away for each such occurrence....
              stevekral
              --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:

              From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
              Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
              To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM



              Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
              application for lottery?

              Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?

              Thanks.

              David Clark

              Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

              Longmont

              (C) 720-275-2197

              -Outreach Manager

              -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

              -RRCA Certified Running Coach

              - Sent from my iPhone

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Deb P
              that s one of the best spell check recommendations I ve seen in quite awhile. I agree.. wait lusters! ha!! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
                awhile. I agree..
                wait lusters! ha!!

                On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
                > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
                > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
                > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
                > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
                > wait list experiences.
                >
                > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
                > become their official designation.)
                >
                > Chris from flat Florida
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                >
                > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                > > stevekral
                > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
                > >
                > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
                > application for lottery?
                > >
                > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                > >
                > > Thanks.
                > >
                > > David Clark
                > >
                > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                > >
                > > Longmont
                > >
                > > (C) 720-275-2197
                > >
                > > -Outreach Manager
                > >
                > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                > >
                > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                > >
                > > - Sent from my iPhone
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Steve Kral
                Chris, I m not sure who makes up your we all group, but I once heard a Hardrock runner first hand discuss starting with no intent to finish. Had something to
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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                  Chris,
                  I'm not sure who makes up your 'we all' group, but I once heard a Hardrock runner first hand discuss starting with no intent to finish. Had something to do with being old and not caring how many years younger runners with more opportunities had to wait.
                  James,
                  Nice idea also, but would be quite beyond one's control if he/she came to Hardrock to pace 50 miles and the runner dropped. Still, in any given year, quite a few runners are out there without pacers...maybe they don't want one!steve

                  --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Deb P <mtnrunner02@...> wrote:

                  From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
                  Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                  To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:46 PM

                  that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
                  awhile. I agree..
                  wait lusters! ha!!

                  On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
                  > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
                  > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                  > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
                  > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
                  > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
                  > wait list experiences.
                  >
                  > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
                  > become their official designation.)
                  >
                  > Chris from flat Florida
                  >
                  > Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  >
                  > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                  > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                  > > stevekral
                  > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
                  > >
                  > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                  > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
                  > application for lottery?
                  > >
                  > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks.
                  > >
                  > > David Clark
                  > >
                  > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                  > >
                  > > Longmont
                  > >
                  > > (C) 720-275-2197
                  > >
                  > > -Outreach Manager
                  > >
                  > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                  > >
                  > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                  > >
                  > > - Sent from my iPhone
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • tedes12@comcast.net
                  Man after doing Hardrock one time I see what the fuss is all about!!! It is truly a one-of-a-kind ultra. I hope I make it in a second year. Have you ever
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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                    Man after doing Hardrock one time I see what the fuss is all about!!! It is truly a one-of-a-kind ultra. I hope I make it in a second year.

                    Have you ever heard of anyone running both Hardrock and Badwater in the same year. If so did they finish either or both?
                    Terry Sentinella
                    Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
                    Sender: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:46:24
                    To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                    Reply-To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                    that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
                    awhile. I agree..
                    wait lusters! ha!!

                    On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
                    > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
                    > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                    > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
                    > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
                    > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
                    > wait list experiences.
                    >
                    > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
                    > become their official designation.)
                    >
                    > Chris from flat Florida
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    >
                    > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                    > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                    > > stevekral
                    > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
                    > >
                    > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                    > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
                    > application for lottery?
                    > >
                    > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks.
                    > >
                    > > David Clark
                    > >
                    > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                    > >
                    > > Longmont
                    > >
                    > > (C) 720-275-2197
                    > >
                    > > -Outreach Manager
                    > >
                    > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                    > >
                    > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                    > >
                    > > - Sent from my iPhone
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

                    To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...

                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                  • Chris Twiggs
                    I am very surprised to hear that, Steve. I have never heard such a comment from any hardrocker. The oldest of them all, John DeWalt, chose not to come this
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
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                      I am very surprised to hear that, Steve. I have never heard such a comment from any hardrocker. The oldest of them all, John DeWalt, chose not to come this year because he was sick and knew he'd likely not finish. Please don't reveal the name of the SOB you overheard. I hold all who have started HR in high esteem whether they finished or not, and I want nothing to tarnish that.

                      Chris

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

                      > Chris,
                      > I'm not sure who makes up your 'we all' group, but I once heard a Hardrock runner first hand discuss starting with no intent to finish. Had something to do with being old and not caring how many years younger runners with more opportunities had to wait.
                      > James,
                      > Nice idea also, but would be quite beyond one's control if he/she came to Hardrock to pace 50 miles and the runner dropped. Still, in any given year, quite a few runners are out there without pacers...maybe they don't want one!steve
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Deb P <mtnrunner02@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                      > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:46 PM
                      >
                      > that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
                      > awhile. I agree..
                      > wait lusters! ha!!
                      >
                      > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
                      > > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
                      > > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                      > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
                      > > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
                      > > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
                      > > wait list experiences.
                      > >
                      > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
                      > > become their official designation.)
                      > >
                      > > Chris from flat Florida
                      > >
                      > > Sent from my iPhone
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
                      > > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                      > > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                      > > > stevekral
                      > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
                      > > >
                      > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                      > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
                      > > application for lottery?
                      > > >
                      > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks.
                      > > >
                      > > > David Clark
                      > > >
                      > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                      > > >
                      > > > Longmont
                      > > >
                      > > > (C) 720-275-2197
                      > > >
                      > > > -Outreach Manager
                      > > >
                      > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                      > > >
                      > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                      > > >
                      > > > - Sent from my iPhone
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chris Twiggs
                      Joe Prusaitis did it. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Joe Prusaitis did it.

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:13 PM, tedes12@... wrote:

                        > Man after doing Hardrock one time I see what the fuss is all about!!! It is truly a one-of-a-kind ultra. I hope I make it in a second year.
                        >
                        > Have you ever heard of anyone running both Hardrock and Badwater in the same year. If so did they finish either or both?
                        > Terry Sentinella
                        > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
                        > Sender: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:46:24
                        > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Reply-To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        >
                        > that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
                        > awhile. I agree..
                        > wait lusters! ha!!
                        >
                        > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
                        > > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
                        > > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                        > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
                        > > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
                        > > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
                        > > wait list experiences.
                        > >
                        > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
                        > > become their official designation.)
                        > >
                        > > Chris from flat Florida
                        > >
                        > > Sent from my iPhone
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                        > > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                        > > > stevekral
                        > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
                        > > >
                        > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                        > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
                        > > application for lottery?
                        > > >
                        > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks.
                        > > >
                        > > > David Clark
                        > > >
                        > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                        > > >
                        > > > Longmont
                        > > >
                        > > > (C) 720-275-2197
                        > > >
                        > > > -Outreach Manager
                        > > >
                        > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                        > > >
                        > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                        > > >
                        > > > - Sent from my iPhone
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                        >
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Chris Twiggs
                        I remember telling Joe that BW seemed like the exact opposite of what I love about HR. He said, It is. That s part of the challenge. . That was the moment I
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 21, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I remember telling Joe that BW seemed like the exact opposite of what I love about HR. He said, "It is. That's part of the challenge.". That was the moment I started thinking about BW. However, I can't see giving up HR, so if I ever do it, it will have to be a double.

                          Chris

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Oct 21, 2010, at 11:41 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                          > Joe Prusaitis did it.
                          >
                          > Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > On Oct 21, 2010, at 10:13 PM, tedes12@... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Man after doing Hardrock one time I see what the fuss is all about!!! It is truly a one-of-a-kind ultra. I hope I make it in a second year.
                          > >
                          > > Have you ever heard of anyone running both Hardrock and Badwater in the same year. If so did they finish either or both?
                          > > Terry Sentinella
                          > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Deb P <mtnrunner02@...>
                          > > Sender: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:46:24
                          > > To: <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Reply-To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                          > >
                          > > that's one of the best spell check recommendations I've seen in quite
                          > > awhile. I agree..
                          > > wait lusters! ha!!
                          > >
                          > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers
                          > > > who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board
                          > > > decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                          > > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose
                          > > > not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not
                          > > > wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other
                          > > > wait list experiences.
                          > > >
                          > > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose
                          > > > become their official designation.)
                          > > >
                          > > > Chris from flat Florida
                          > > >
                          > > > Sent from my iPhone
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...<bvstablemail%40yahoo.com>>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                          > > > ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                          > > > > stevekral
                          > > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...<irishsailsman%40comcast.net>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                          > > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com <hr100%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an
                          > > > application for lottery?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thanks.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > David Clark
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Longmont
                          > > > >
                          > > > > (C) 720-275-2197
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -Outreach Manager
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                          > > > >
                          > > > > - Sent from my iPhone
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > To Post a message, send it to: hr100@...
                          > >
                          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Matt Mahoney
                          ... atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery Here is a better idea. How about not allowing pacers? That way the race could support more runners.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            james varner wrote:
                            > i like that idea steve(even though that would cost me a ticket) and how
                            >about requiring volunteering at a hardrock aid station or pacing(50miles) at
                            >hardrock
                            atleast once in the past 5 years to get in the lottery

                            Here is a better idea. How about not allowing pacers? That way the race could
                            support more runners. It also might cut down on the number of less qualified
                            entries.

                            Also, how about some extra allowance for the best runners so that a win or a
                            course record actually means something? This is a race, after all, even if only
                            the top runners treat it that way. Hardrock will never see a showdown between
                            the likes of Krupicka, Matt Carpenter, and Killian Jornet because it is unlikely
                            all of them could ever get in the lottery with just one ticket each. Make the
                            standards clear, like a top 10 finish in a qualifying race in the last 2 years.
                            As it is now, a Hardrock trophy just means you were lucky enough to get in and
                            your faster competition was not. Who cares? If you are doing it just for the
                            experience, then you can hike the course any time.

                            Everyone else should go on a multi-year waiting list, starting with the wait
                            list from this year. Enter any time, and your name goes on the end. If you can't
                            make it during the year when your name comes up, then you go to the back of the
                            line again.

                            Steve Kral wrote:
                            > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one
                            >ticket taken away for each such occurrence....

                            Yeah, my 48:00:28 DNF in 2007 shows that I really suck at this. My fault for not
                            using a crew, pacer, or drop bags.

                            -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Steve Pero
                            It s my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered a race . The idea is for people (I very very loosely call us runners) to enjoy the
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered a
                              "race". The idea is for people (I very very loosely call us runners) to
                              enjoy the San Juans in an Endurance event. It is named the Hardrock Hundred
                              Endurance Run.
                              The 48 hour cutoff is to give the participants plenty of time to get it done
                              and still be able to find cover in the event of a storm. Sure, the faster
                              runners do "race" each other, but I enjoy seeing John Dewalt come across the
                              line bent at the waist or Jennifer Roach last year kissing the rock with
                              tears streaming down her face with only minutes to spare....that's what
                              Hardrock is all about.
                              I can't imagine anyone devoting the energy to enter the lottery and then
                              train for Hardrock without planning on finishing...I would hope if someone
                              was planning on not running the whole run, then they would step aside and
                              give the next wait luster their spot and pace instead.

                              Now that the racing season is about over, everyone must be getting anxious
                              about the lottery already ;-) Good to see the activity...

                              See you in June!
                              Steve (2 finishes out of 7 attempts)


                              On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:45 AM, Matt Mahoney <matmahoney@...> wrote:


                              Also, how about some extra allowance for the best runners so that a win or a

                              course record actually means something? This is a race, after all, even if
                              only
                              the top runners treat it that way. Hardrock will never see a showdown
                              between
                              the likes of Krupicka, Matt Carpenter, and Killian Jornet because it is
                              unlikely
                              all of them could ever get in the lottery with just one ticket each. Make
                              the
                              standards clear, like a top 10 finish in a qualifying race in the last 2
                              years.
                              As it is now, a Hardrock trophy just means you were lucky enough to get in
                              and
                              your faster competition was not. Who cares? If you are doing it just for the

                              experience, then you can hike the course any time.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Matt Mahoney
                              ... Some people don t consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or jog it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Steve Pero wrote:
                                > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                                >a "race".

                                Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or jog
                                it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                                afterward and not worry about the awards.

                                Others look at Hardrock and see:
                                - A start line
                                - A finish line
                                - A prescribed and marked course
                                - A clock
                                - An official says "go"
                                - Finish results
                                - Awards based on finish order
                                which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would set
                                a course record is irrelevant).

                                And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                                issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                                runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had
                                pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two
                                deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure prize
                                money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters when
                                you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset by
                                your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about his
                                broken finger).

                                IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                                didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run the
                                whole thing.

                                -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@...




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Don
                                I ve never liked the basic unfairness of the weighted lottery I don t think anyone should have preferential treatment,Don Platt Sent from my iPhone On Oct
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I've never liked the basic unfairness of the "weighted" lottery I don' t think anyone should have preferential treatment,Don Platt

                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On Oct 21, 2010, at 6:43 PM, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                                  We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing,= which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to se= cond-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to ta= ke away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list e= xperiences.=20 (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose becom= e their official designation.) Chris from flat Florida Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral wrote: > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one t= icket taken away for each such occurrence.... > stevekral > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark wrote: >=20 > From: David Clark > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an app= lication for lottery? >=20 > Also- historically,
                                  what are the odds of actually getting in?=20 >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > David Clark >=20 > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition >=20 > Longmont >=20 > (C) 720-275-2197 >=20 > -Outreach Manager >=20 > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach >=20 > -RRCA Certified Running Coach >=20 > - Sent from my iPhone >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --lYd6vZmEvgw0fgrUKQjgghzBnPJSDRkF0BBv9SV Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
                                  As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.

                                  (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)

                                  Chris from flat Florida

                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

                                  > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....
                                  > stevekral
                                  > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                                  > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                  > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?
                                  >
                                  > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > David Clark
                                  >
                                  > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                                  >
                                  > Longmont
                                  >
                                  > (C) 720-275-2197
                                  >
                                  > -Outreach Manager
                                  >
                                  > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                                  >
                                  > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                                  >
                                  > - Sent from my iPhone
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • azsmokin
                                  I ve finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in 05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved my life. I
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I've finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in
                                    '05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved
                                    my life.

                                    I was blindsided by a condition called Metabolic Acidosis as I was
                                    descending to Ouray from Engineers. I slowly lost all muscle control and
                                    eventually could not stand on my own. Not a good place on the course to be
                                    in such bad shape. I was like a falling down drunk but my head felt fine.
                                    Tim had to hold me up by my packstraps as we slowly made our way to the 550
                                    tunnel to wait on the ambulance that Steve, who had caught up to us, had ran
                                    ahead to call for. The emergency room Doc said I was very lucky as the
                                    condition could be fatal if left untreated. He didn't have to mention the
                                    sudden stop into Bear Creek had I fallen off the trail.

                                    Was I trained enough for the course? I thought so.

                                    Did I know what I was getting into? I thought so.

                                    My wife really likes for me to use pacers now. I used 3 the last time.
                                    Besides, I want them to see what I get to see.



                                    Bob Bachani

                                    Tucson, AZ

                                    _____

                                    From: hr100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hr100@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
                                    Mahoney
                                    Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:08 AM
                                    To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds





                                    Steve Pero wrote:
                                    > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                                    >a "race".

                                    Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or
                                    jog
                                    it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                                    afterward and not worry about the awards.

                                    Others look at Hardrock and see:
                                    - A start line
                                    - A finish line
                                    - A prescribed and marked course
                                    - A clock
                                    - An official says "go"
                                    - Finish results
                                    - Awards based on finish order
                                    which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would
                                    set
                                    a course record is irrelevant).

                                    And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                                    issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                                    runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had

                                    pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two

                                    deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure
                                    prize
                                    money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters
                                    when
                                    you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset
                                    by
                                    your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about
                                    his
                                    broken finger).

                                    IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                                    didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run
                                    the
                                    whole thing.

                                    -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@... <mailto:matmahoney%40yahoo.com>

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Twiggsc@aol.com
                                    Well put, Bob! I use pacers and treasure the time I spend with them. They are my good friends. Anyone who stands there offering encouragement while I puke is
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Well put, Bob!

                                      I use pacers and treasure the time I spend with them. They are my good friends. Anyone who stands there offering encouragement while I puke is more family than friend. However, I respect that my fellow Floridian, Matt, never uses them. I won't try to force a pacer on him, and I don't think he will try to take mine away.







                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: azsmokin <azsmokin@...>
                                      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 10:59 am
                                      Subject: RE: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds





                                      I've finished Hardrock twice out of 3 attempts. My first try was a DNF in
                                      '05 and it could be said that my pacer, Tim Varner and Steve Patillo saved
                                      my life.

                                      I was blindsided by a condition called Metabolic Acidosis as I was
                                      descending to Ouray from Engineers. I slowly lost all muscle control and
                                      eventually could not stand on my own. Not a good place on the course to be
                                      in such bad shape. I was like a falling down drunk but my head felt fine.
                                      Tim had to hold me up by my packstraps as we slowly made our way to the 550
                                      tunnel to wait on the ambulance that Steve, who had caught up to us, had ran
                                      ahead to call for. The emergency room Doc said I was very lucky as the
                                      condition could be fatal if left untreated. He didn't have to mention the
                                      sudden stop into Bear Creek had I fallen off the trail.

                                      Was I trained enough for the course? I thought so.

                                      Did I know what I was getting into? I thought so.

                                      My wife really likes for me to use pacers now. I used 3 the last time.
                                      Besides, I want them to see what I get to see.

                                      Bob Bachani

                                      Tucson, AZ

                                      _____

                                      From: hr100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hr100@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt
                                      Mahoney
                                      Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:08 AM
                                      To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                                      Steve Pero wrote:
                                      > It's my understanding that Hardrock never was or never will be considered
                                      >a "race".

                                      Some people don't consider a 5K a race. They are perfectly happy to walk or
                                      jog
                                      it with a group of friends in 40 minutes and get a T-shirt and some food
                                      afterward and not worry about the awards.

                                      Others look at Hardrock and see:
                                      - A start line
                                      - A finish line
                                      - A prescribed and marked course
                                      - A clock
                                      - An official says "go"
                                      - Finish results
                                      - Awards based on finish order
                                      which sure looks to me like a race. (The fact that a 40 minute 5K pace would
                                      set
                                      a course record is irrelevant).

                                      And if it's not a race, then why are there pacers? Some say it is a safety
                                      issue. Sorry, I have to call BS. In a typical big city marathon with 30,000
                                      runners, you can statistically expect one death. If all of those runners had

                                      pacers, then the runners might feel safer, but you would instead average two

                                      deaths. Elite runners use pacers because when you are chasing six figure
                                      prize
                                      money at 4:48/mile, wind resistance matters. I fail to see how it matters
                                      when
                                      you are crawling up Grant-Swamp pass. Any advantage will probably be offset
                                      by
                                      your pacer accidentally pushing rocks down on you. (Ask David Horton about
                                      his
                                      broken finger).

                                      IMHO pacing is just a way to run half the race for free, either because you
                                      didn't get in the lottery or because you weren't trained well enough to run
                                      the
                                      whole thing.

                                      -- Matt Mahoney, matmahoney@... <mailto:matmahoney%40yahoo.com>;

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Steve Kral
                                      I wholly agree Chris, controversial to say the least is an understatement. Still, abolishing slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all controversial ideas in their day...one even started a war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive ideas.

                                        --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...> wrote:

                                        From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                        To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com" <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
















                                         









                                        As I understand it now, dnf's get no extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets they had earned through other finishes or other wait list experiences.



                                        (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I now propose become their official designation.)



                                        Chris from flat Florida



                                        Sent from my iPhone



                                        On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



                                        > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such occurrence....

                                        > stevekral

                                        > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...> wrote:

                                        >

                                        > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                                        > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                                        > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                                        > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM

                                        >

                                        >

                                        >

                                        > Does anyone have any information on when we will be able to submit an application for lottery?

                                        >

                                        > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually getting in?

                                        >

                                        > Thanks.

                                        >

                                        > David Clark

                                        >

                                        > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

                                        >

                                        > Longmont

                                        >

                                        > (C) 720-275-2197

                                        >

                                        > -Outreach Manager

                                        >

                                        > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

                                        >

                                        > -RRCA Certified Running Coach

                                        >

                                        > - Sent from my iPhone

                                        >

                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        >

                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        >

                                        >



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Michael Bur
                                        Interesting. How are you defining progressive here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 22, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Interesting.

                                          How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).

                                          As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.

                                          In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.

                                          Best,
                                          Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)
                                          Kensington, MD

                                          --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:

                                          > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                                          > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                          > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                                          > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial
                                          > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing
                                          > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                                          > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a
                                          > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive
                                          > ideas.
                                          >
                                          > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                                          > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                          > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"
                                          > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >    
                                          >      
                                          >      
                                          >       As I understand it now, dnf's get no
                                          > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further
                                          > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision
                                          > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                                          > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other
                                          > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to
                                          > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets
                                          > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list
                                          > experiences.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I
                                          > now propose become their official designation.)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Chris from flat Florida
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Sent from my iPhone
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the
                                          > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such
                                          > occurrence....
                                          >
                                          > > stevekral
                                          >
                                          > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                                          >
                                          > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                          >
                                          > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > 
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be
                                          > able to submit an application for lottery?
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually
                                          > getting in?
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > Thanks.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > David Clark
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > Longmont
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > (C) 720-275-2197
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > -Outreach Manager
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > - Sent from my iPhone
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >    
                                          >      
                                          >
                                          >    
                                          >    
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >      
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to:   hr100@...
                                          >
                                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!
                                          > Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >     hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Andy Hewat
                                          I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 23, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I could see the benefit of saving a handful of spots for the elite to ensure high quality at the pointy end but that would make it just that little bit tougher for the rest of us. I do find myself looking on enviously at those 5 time finishers at the presentation.
                                            Andy (3 from 3)


                                            --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Michael Bur <mjcbur@...> wrote:

                                            From: Michael Bur <mjcbur@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                            To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                            Received: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:33 AM
















                                             











                                            Interesting.



                                            How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).



                                            As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.



                                            In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.



                                            Best,

                                            Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)

                                            Kensington, MD



                                            --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:



                                            > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>

                                            > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                                            > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                                            > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM

                                            > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial

                                            > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing

                                            > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all

                                            > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a

                                            > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive

                                            > ideas.

                                            >

                                            > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>

                                            > wrote:

                                            >

                                            > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>

                                            > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                                            > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"

                                            > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>

                                            > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >  

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >  

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >    

                                            >      

                                            >      

                                            >       As I understand it now, dnf's get no

                                            > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further

                                            > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision

                                            > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of

                                            > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other

                                            > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to

                                            > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets

                                            > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list

                                            > experiences.

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I

                                            > now propose become their official designation.)

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > Chris from flat Florida

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > Sent from my iPhone

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>

                                            > wrote:

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the

                                            > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such

                                            > occurrence....

                                            >

                                            > > stevekral

                                            >

                                            > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                                            > wrote:

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>

                                            >

                                            > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds

                                            >

                                            > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com

                                            >

                                            > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > 

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be

                                            > able to submit an application for lottery?

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually

                                            > getting in?

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > Thanks.

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > David Clark

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > Max Muscle Sports Nutrition

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > Longmont

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > (C) 720-275-2197

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > -Outreach Manager

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > - Sent from my iPhone

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            > >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >    

                                            >      

                                            >

                                            >    

                                            >    

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >  

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >      

                                            >

                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >

                                            > ------------------------------------

                                            >

                                            > To Post a message, send it to:   hr100@...

                                            >

                                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hr100-unsubscribe@...!

                                            > Groups Links

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >     hr100-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                                            >

                                            >

                                            >






























                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Chris Twiggs
                                            You ll have that five timer finishing jacket in no time, Andy. Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 23, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              You'll have that five timer finishing jacket in no time, Andy.

                                              Sent from my iPhone

                                              On Oct 23, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Andy Hewat <hewat.andy@...> wrote:

                                              > I think the HR entry system is very civilized. While the lottery has been kind to me, I like the weighted system and the auto entry for 5 time finishers. I could see the benefit of saving a handful of spots for the elite to ensure high quality at the pointy end but that would make it just that little bit tougher for the rest of us. I do find myself looking on enviously at those 5 time finishers at the presentation.
                                              > Andy (3 from 3)
                                              >
                                              > --- On Sat, 23/10/10, Michael Bur <mjcbur@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > From: Michael Bur <mjcbur@...>
                                              > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                              > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Received: Saturday, 23 October, 2010, 5:33 AM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Interesting.
                                              >
                                              > How are you defining "progressive" here and more to the point, what are the aspects of the current HR lottery system that you feel are not "progressive"? The DNFer is already effectively penalized WRT to a waitlister in that if they start and don't finish, they don't get the ticket; so the following year, the waitlister starts off in a better position when compared to the person who DNFed(all other things being equal).
                                              >
                                              > As far as "progressive" goes, other than the MMT lottery(http://www.vhtrc.org/mmt/entry.htm), which by way of full disclosure, I helped design, I don't know of any other 100 entry that has put as much thought into their design in terms of consideration and balancing all of the various aspects, interests and stakeholders of the event. I know from experience that there are many, many aspects to consider when designing an entry system for an event that is oversubscribed. Some of them are in direct opposition to each other. It isn't easy trying to get them all to balance out in a "fair" way. It is also important to note here that what one may considered "fair" to them as an individual may not(and often is not!) the same as what the board/rd considers "fair" for the overall event.
                                              >
                                              > In looking at what we(the VHTRC) did with MMT, I think there are other, far more "progressive" ideas that HR could incorporate to their lottery/entry before they resorted to taking away tickets from folks who DNFed.
                                              >
                                              > Best,
                                              >
                                              > Mike Bur(former VHTRC president, 4x Hardrocker)
                                              >
                                              > Kensington, MD
                                              >
                                              > --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > From: Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                                              >
                                              > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                              >
                                              > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              > > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
                                              >
                                              > > I wholly agree Chris, 'controversial
                                              >
                                              > > to say the least' is an understatement. Still, abolishing
                                              >
                                              > > slavery and giving the women the right to vote were all
                                              >
                                              > > controversial ideas in their day...one even started a
                                              >
                                              > > war...but somehow progress seems to stem from progressive
                                              >
                                              > > ideas.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                                              >
                                              > > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > From: Chris Twiggs <Twiggsc@...>
                                              >
                                              > > Subject: Re: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                              >
                                              > > To: "hr100@yahoogroups.com"
                                              >
                                              > > <hr100@yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 8:43 PM
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > As I understand it now, dnf's get no
                                              >
                                              > > extra tickets compared to wait listers who get one. Further
                                              >
                                              > > penalizing dnf'ers would be a controversial board decision
                                              >
                                              > > to say the least. We all start HR100 with the intention of
                                              >
                                              > > finishing, which I don't believe is the case in some other
                                              >
                                              > > ultras. I choose not to second-guess anyone who decides to
                                              >
                                              > > drop, and I certainly would not wish to take away tickets
                                              >
                                              > > they had earned through other finishes or other wait list
                                              >
                                              > > experiences.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > (Autofill wanted wait listers to be wait lusters, which I
                                              >
                                              > > now propose become their official designation.)
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > Chris from flat Florida
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > Sent from my iPhone
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Steve Kral <bvstablemail@...>
                                              >
                                              > > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > They be better if people who DNFed any time in the
                                              >
                                              > > past 3 years had one ticket taken away for each such
                                              >
                                              > > occurrence....
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > stevekral
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > --- On Thu, 10/21/10, David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                                              >
                                              > > wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > From: David Clark <irishsailsman@...>
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Subject: [hr100] Registration and Lottery Odds
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > To: hr100@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 6:03 PM
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Does anyone have any information on when we will be
                                              >
                                              > > able to submit an application for lottery?
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Also- historically, what are the odds of actually
                                              >
                                              > > getting in?
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > Thanks.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > > David Clark
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
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                                              > > > Longmont
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                                              > > > (C) 720-275-2197
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                                              > > > -Outreach Manager
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                                              > > > -NESTA Certified Sports Nutrition Coach
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                                              > > > -RRCA Certified Running Coach
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