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Re: [HP Lovecraft]Blair Witch Project,etc.

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  • Taylor401306@cs.com
    In a message dated 11/1/2003 3:28:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... No, I didn t hate The Blair Witch Project because it was bloodless.(Most of my favorite
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
      In a message dated 11/1/2003 3:28:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com writes:
      > Given the w-i-d-e variety of storytelling methods out there, who's to say,
      > to coin your phrase, what he might have liked or not. For example, I believe
      > The Blair Witch Project was quite horrific and told a nearly perfect scary
      > story, and revealed its points in increasing dread without ever revealing the
      > horror that destroyed the protagonists. Yet universally, that movie is
      > reviled, as is The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which, as horrific and disturbing as
      > it is, happens to be tremendously bloodless, given the subject matter.
      No, I didn't hate" The Blair Witch Project " because it was bloodless.(Most
      of my favorite horror movies are bloodless.) I hated" BWP" because it was all
      build-up & no follow-through. If they had had some money to give a more
      satisfactory ending , it might have been better. I think the best Lovecraft film is
      "Haunted Palace" (The Case of Charles Dexter Ward"). As for "Herbert West,
      Re-Animator", I've always thought of it as dark humor , similar to "Addams
      Family".


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dan bailey
      hardly. i have to side with the movie s supporters. anyone who thinks that the menace in bwp is comparable to some maniac with a knife really needs to get out
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
        hardly. i have to side with the movie's supporters. anyone who thinks that
        the menace in bwp is comparable to some maniac with a knife really needs to
        get out more.

        no one is saying you have to like the movie. you probably wouldn't lose any
        points, however, by refraining from kneejerk attacks on those who do.

        dan

        >OK, that makes every bad slasher flick ever made into
        >something Lovecraftian.....
        >
        >
        >
        >--- spauldingae <spauldingae@...> wrote:> 3
        >kids go out to the woods to do a documentry about
        >> a with. They attempt to
        >> go up to a cemetary. Once in the woods, they find
        >> out that: A) They can't
        >> seem to find the cemetary, B). Something freaky is
        >> going on outside and C).
        >> They can't seem to find their way out of the woods,
        >> despite trying such
        >> plans as walking in the same direction for hours and
        >> following the creek for
        >> hours.
        >
      • Old.Ghost@juno.com
        ... I actually saw the Sci Fi Channel special about the Blair Witch Project before I saw the movie. The special was, to my eyes, very Lovecraftian (with it s
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
          Taylor401306@... writes:
          > I hated" BWP" because it was all build-up & no
          > follow-through. If they had had some money to
          > give a more satisfactory ending , it might have
          > been better.

          I actually saw the Sci Fi Channel special about the Blair Witch Project
          before I saw the movie. The special was, to my eyes, very Lovecraftian
          (with it's third person distance intermixed with first person bits, like
          Call of Cthulhu, and the videotape being found under the foundations of a
          *colonial*era* building) and that coloured the way I saw the movie. I
          was watching a "tale that Lovecraft never told". The ending of the movie
          didn't have the same "exclamation point" as a Lovecraft tale (and after
          all, it *wasn't* a Lovecraft tale), so it seemed to fall short in some
          ways. Was it a great movie? No. Why was it a phenomenon? It was
          different than all the run-of-the-mill horror flicks that were out at the
          time. If someone had had the sense to recognize the Lovecraftian style
          of BWP and filmed a true-to-the-text Lovecraft story right after BWP, we
          might have seen some great adaptations of Lovecraft tales (and then some
          *really* bad ones as Hollywood jumped on the bandwagon with both feet and
          ran the franchise into the ground again).

          <shrug> YMMV.

          ~ Jas.
          (By the way, for those who care, my thesis is in final review before
          defense. Keep your tentacles crossed.)

          ________________________________________________________________
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        • Blackwing Bear
          I think we watched different movies. The one I saw had 3 freshman college kids running around with a camcorder on acting like they were screaming. It was TOTAL
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
            I think we watched different movies. The one I saw had
            3 freshman college kids running around with a
            camcorder on acting like they were screaming. It was
            TOTAL shit. It was a waste of time and money. You
            think THIS is Lovecraftian?!? Have you read
            Lovecraft?!?



            > I was watching a "tale that Lovecraft never told".
            If someone had had the sense to recognize the
            > Lovecraftian style
            > of BWP and filmed a true-to-the-text Lovecraft story
            > right after BWP, we
            > might have seen some great adaptations of Lovecraft
            > tales (and then some
            > *really* bad ones as Hollywood jumped on the
            > bandwagon with both feet and
            > ran the franchise into the ground again).
            >

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          • Old.Ghost@juno.com
            ... Same movie, different perspectives. Do you remember what your expectations were when you first watched the movie? I do. I didn t see it until it was on
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
              Blackwing Bear writes:
              > I think we watched different movies.

              Same movie, different perspectives. Do you remember what your
              expectations were when you first watched the movie? I do. I didn't see
              it until it was on video, so I'd heard a lot about it before I watched
              it. I knew the kids were annoying before I saw the movie. I knew that
              some people said they were *rooting* for the kids to be killed by the end
              of the movie. And I'd seen the Sci Fi Channel special. As I've said
              before, I watched it with a Lovecraftian expectation because of that
              special. I wasn't expecting a cinematic masterpiece. I was expecting a
              horror tale with some degree of Lovecraftian tone to it.

              > You think THIS is Lovecraftian?!? Have you read Lovecraft?!?

              I've read a lot of Lovecraft: every story, some poems and essays, the
              autobiography in letters, lit.crit. by others about HPL, and so on.

              Do I think it's Lovecraftian? I'd have to answer with a qualified "yes".
              The reason is that although there were elements HPL would not have used,
              there were elements that could easily have been plucked from HPL stories
              and updated to the present:

              How do we, the audience, find out what happened? The kids had
              camcorders. The movie would've been *really* boring if they had been
              writing down what they had experienced like HPL characters. Camcorders
              are the modern "diary of a man about to die".

              Did we ever actually see the big bad nasty? No, we see shadows and
              shapes and strange artifacts and everything can be explained away by
              rational means except for the very last bit. Lovecraft had said the way
              to make the weird horror seem real was to keep everything else real so
              that the weird thing would be accepted in the context of the story
              (although he said it better). He also wrote in a way that we could only
              see the horror in the eyes/minds of the observers.

              We see the kids slowly losing their minds, but instead of fainting like
              HPL's characters, they swear at each other. Isn't modern America grand?
              ;-)

              And the story is all about a discovery of old tales and an exploration of
              those old tales that leads to madness and death.

              Now, the negatives are:

              The big bad nasty is a witch and HPL resisted such "cliche" nasties in
              his story (even allowing for "Dreams in the Witch House").

              The story lacks the description-restraint that you can get away with in a
              story but not in a visual medium (which is why horror and fantasy are so
              hard on screen, and even CGI is not quite perfect yet).

              The story lacks the 1920's-type upper-class characters who in spite of
              attacks from vicious unknown beings retain their breeding, if not their
              sanity.

              And the movie was designed for pop culture, not the pure art for which
              HPL would strive.

              Perhaps I went a bit far comparing BWP to a "tale Lovecraft never wrote"
              but yes, I think the movie is Lovecraftian, updated for modern America's
              current technology. That is my opinion, based on my understanding of
              Lovecraft and his works and my understanding of modern popular culture.

              And, as I closed my previous message, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary). In
              other words, it's what I think. If you can explain why you think it is
              definitely *not* Lovecraftian, I'm willing to change my mind. <shrug>
              The floor is yours.

              ~ Jas.

              ________________________________________________________________
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            • spauldingae
              ... From: Blackwing Bear To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [HP
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Blackwing Bear" <blackwingbear@...>
                To: <hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 7:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [HP Lovecraft]Blair Witch Project,etc.


                > I think we watched different movies. The one I saw had
                > 3 freshman college kids running around with a
                > camcorder on acting like they were screaming. It was
                > TOTAL shit. It was a waste of time and money. You
                > think THIS is Lovecraftian?!? Have you read
                > Lovecraft?!?

                I personally felt it was very lovecraft influence.

                3 kids go out to the woods to do a documentry about a with. They attempt to
                go up to a cemetary. Once in the woods, they find out that: A) They can't
                seem to find the cemetary, B). Something freaky is going on outside and C).
                They can't seem to find their way out of the woods, despite trying such
                plans as walking in the same direction for hours and following the creek for
                hours. The disturbances get more and more freaky and overt, eventually
                resulting in one of their own going missing, as well as their nerves getting
                more and more frazzled. Eventually they run across a house that suppossdly
                burned down years before and their video stuff is found buried beneath it.

                I felt it was one of the creepiest movies I've seen, despite the fact the
                cast acted like idiots. I knew it was fake but I liked it anyway. First was
                the fact that you don't see anything that is harrasing them, just what is
                left in the morning(the sticks and cairns, first representing the kids, then
                them). The monster is left up the imagination. 2nd, the fact that no matter
                what they try, they can't seem to get out of the woods. Almost as if
                something is wrong with space/time. Also, the nice(and occasionally
                annoying) sense of growing paranoia and frazzled nerves as the lack of food,
                sleep and the circumstances seem to bear down on them. In this, I felt it
                was far more effective then a lot of "Lovecraft" movies.
              • Blackwing Bear
                OK, that makes every bad slasher flick ever made into something Lovecraftian..... ... kids go out to the woods to do a documentry about ...
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
                  OK, that makes every bad slasher flick ever made into
                  something Lovecraftian.....



                  --- spauldingae <spauldingae@...> wrote:> 3
                  kids go out to the woods to do a documentry about
                  > a with. They attempt to
                  > go up to a cemetary. Once in the woods, they find
                  > out that: A) They can't
                  > seem to find the cemetary, B). Something freaky is
                  > going on outside and C).
                  > They can't seem to find their way out of the woods,
                  > despite trying such
                  > plans as walking in the same direction for hours and
                  > following the creek for
                  > hours.

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                • Blackwing Bear
                  ... perspectives. Do you remember ... None, I d heard mixed reviews....It was mere curiosity. And I was bored shiteless......
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
                    --- Old.Ghost@... wrote:> Same movie, different
                    perspectives. Do you remember
                    > what your
                    > expectations were when you first watched the movie?

                    None, I'd heard mixed reviews....It was mere
                    curiosity. And I was bored shiteless......



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                  • spauldingae
                    ... From: Blackwing Bear To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [HP
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Blackwing Bear" <blackwingbear@...>
                      To: <hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 1:20 PM
                      Subject: Re: [HP Lovecraft]Blair Witch Project,etc.


                      > OK, that makes every bad slasher flick ever made into
                      > something Lovecraftian.....

                      I don't follow. How do you see one and get the other?
                    • Dennis Montgomery
                      HPL is my favourite horror writer because he leaves so much up to the readers imagination as opposed to say Stephen King who describes things in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 1, 2003
                        HPL is my favourite horror writer because he leaves so
                        much up to the readers imagination as opposed to say
                        Stephen King who describes things in full-disgust-mode
                        :)

                        I'm the same way with horror movies and I'd list my 2
                        favourites as 'The Haunting' (original B&W version) &
                        'Blair Witch Project.' They both scare the &^%$ out
                        of me because like HPL, they don't "show the monster"
                        but just make hints and let my imagination take over.

                        Dennis

                        --- Blackwing Bear <blackwingbear@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- Old.Ghost@... wrote:> Same movie, different
                        > perspectives. Do you remember
                        > > what your
                        > > expectations were when you first watched the
                        > movie?
                        >
                        > None, I'd heard mixed reviews....It was mere
                        > curiosity. And I was bored shiteless......
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________
                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
                        > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
                        >


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                      • Julia Morgan
                        Who says HPL doesnt show the monster? True, we never see it in The Unnameable , or in The Haunter of the Dark But think of the detailed descriptions in The
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 2, 2003
                          Who says HPL doesnt show the monster?

                          True, we never see it in "The Unnameable", or in "The Haunter of the Dark"
                          But think of the detailed descriptions in "The Call of Cthulhu", "The
                          Dunwich Horror", "In the Mountains of Madness", "The Lurking Fear" etc.

                          Regards
                          Morgan

                          PS - I hesitate to say it, but apart from the hippy orgy, I very much like
                          the film version of "The Dunwich Horror". It has atmosphere.



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Dennis Montgomery" <general_cosmo@...>
                          To: <hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 8:25 PM
                          Subject: Re: [HP Lovecraft]Blair Witch Project,etc.


                          >
                          > HPL is my favourite horror writer because he leaves so
                          > much up to the readers imagination as opposed to say
                          > Stephen King who describes things in full-disgust-mode
                          > :)
                          >
                          > I'm the same way with horror movies and I'd list my 2
                          > favourites as 'The Haunting' (original B&W version) &
                          > 'Blair Witch Project.' They both scare the &^%$ out
                          > of me because like HPL, they don't "show the monster"
                          > but just make hints and let my imagination take over.
                          >
                          > Dennis
                          >
                          > --- Blackwing Bear <blackwingbear@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- Old.Ghost@... wrote:> Same movie, different
                          > > perspectives. Do you remember
                          > > > what your
                          > > > expectations were when you first watched the
                          > > movie?
                          > >
                          > > None, I'd heard mixed reviews....It was mere
                          > > curiosity. And I was bored shiteless......
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________
                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
                          > > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
                          > >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          >
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                          >
                          >
                        • pharseid378
                          Of course, in At the Mountains of Madness we see some monsters, but not the unspeakably horrible something-or-other that is mentioned in the story. I suppose
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 2, 2003
                            Of course, in "At the Mountains of Madness" we see some monsters,
                            but not the unspeakably horrible something-or-other that is
                            mentioned in the story. I suppose because of the length of the
                            story, you had to bring something out of the closet.

                            Back on the BWP, does anyone remember a Lovecraftian story which
                            begins with the chief character finding symbols made out of sticks
                            hanging from trees in the woods. I believe I read it in the late
                            70's. In an interview, I think the director of BWP said he got the
                            idea of using the stick things from actually finding one in the
                            woods, but I immediately recalled that story.

                            Anyway, I think BWP became the "phenomenon" it was primarily
                            because of the press it got by duping the public. I don't think it
                            stands out as all that remarkable on its own. On the other hand,
                            whether you liked it or not, it certainly borrows a lot from the
                            Lovecraftian formula. It was more Lovecraftian than something
                            like "The Devils Rain", which was supposed to be an adaptation
                            of "The Colour Out of Space". I think this is the best example
                            of "made for television" Lovecraft, even though it was a theatrical
                            release.

                            -phar
                          • east coast
                            ... And what, pray tell, was the last horror movie you ve seen that was remarkable on it s own? In some ways I take strong offense to that comment. BWP s
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 2, 2003
                              | Anyway, I think BWP became the "phenomenon" it was primarily
                              |because of the press it got by duping the public. I don't think it
                              |stands out as all that remarkable on its own.

                              And what, pray tell, was the last horror movie you've seen that was
                              remarkable on it's own?

                              In some ways I take strong offense to that comment. BWP's "phenomenon" was
                              based on a number of elements and one being that it wasn't another chunk
                              from the massive Hollywood film vomitorium that the public is subjected to.
                              While many members of this group have a strong interest horror for most of
                              the public horror-fiction is something that they revisit a few times around
                              October 31st. They either do not have interest or have no real outlet to
                              horror fiction aside from the books for King and maybe a showing of The
                              Thing at 2 a.m. on AMC. Think of it what you will but go ask the dolt on the
                              street about "Lovecraft" and they'll look at you funny. We're not a common
                              breed. BWP was a completely new concept in film to them and probably many in
                              this group. After all, if we're all so high and mighty to scoff at BWP why
                              didn't we invest the 40-some-thousand USD and make a few million from it?
                              Considering the budget I think they did a damn good job. Not to mention that
                              it also helped spur public interest in horror fiction.

                              |On the other hand, whether you liked it or not, it certainly borrows a lot
                              from the
                              |Lovecraftian formula. It was more Lovecraftian than something like "The
                              Devils Rain",
                              |which was supposed to be an adaptation of "The Colour Out of Space". I
                              think this is the
                              |best example of "made for television" Lovecraft, even though it was a
                              theatrical
                              |release.

                              The fact really is that it's not Lovecraft... Lovecraftian? Perhaps. I'd
                              say yes, but there are many good arguments against it. But you have to
                              reasonable enough to admit that it's not a cheap rip off of Lovecraft and,
                              better yet, is not another schlock film with the name of Lovecraft stamped
                              on it in a sad attempt to give it some level of credibility among serious
                              horror fans.

                              I still stand behind the opinion that BWP is the best major release horror
                              film in 10 years, maybe even more. And better yet they did it without the
                              crap that has become the trademark of Hollywood; sappy love stories, eye
                              candy and the slasher formula that we've had to endure since the first
                              Friday the 13th.

                              The big problem with Blair Witch is that it has no real re-watch value.
                              Once you've seen it it's over. The vast majority of the film isn't about
                              telling you about the Blair witch or showing you horrific gore; it's about
                              building up tension to increase the amount of release at the final scene.
                              Maybe you think that's cheap but you can't tell me that some of Lovecraft's
                              more long winded narratives weren't meant for the same reason; to show you
                              to an extreme degree how desperate and defeated the members of the story
                              are.

                              Another big problem "with" the Blair Witch Project is that, for the most
                              part, people are poor movie viewers. Unless you paid enough attention to the
                              dialog you had no clue as to the meaning of the 7 piles of stones (and the
                              later 3) nor why Mike was standing in the corner. And considering the movie
                              going public's choices in films it seems that many aren't interested in the
                              dialog at all... Matrix Reloaded being a good example.

                              On an ending note; one woman told me she felt ripped off by BWP because she
                              left the theater thinking it was real, only to find later that it was, of
                              course, fake... I wish I were so "ripped off" by more films.
                            • Someone from the Petting Zoo
                              Taylor401306@cs.com writes No, I didn t hate The Blair Witch Project because it was bloodless. (Most of my favorite horror movies are bloodless.) I didn t
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 2, 2003
                                Taylor401306@... writes "No, I didn't hate" The Blair Witch Project "
                                because it was bloodless. (Most of my favorite horror movies are
                                bloodless.)"

                                I didn't want to assert "because it was bloodless" was the reason ANYONE
                                disliked BWP. That would be pretty shaky philosophical ground for me to be
                                standing on.

                                "I hated" BWP" because it was all build-up & no follow-through. If they had
                                had some money to give a more satisfactory ending , it might have been
                                better."

                                Interesting. I happen to think it had a VERY satisfactory ending!

                                If by satisfactory ending, you're referring to a sort of payoff, such as
                                good-guy-finally-confronts-bad-guy or final-big-monster-reveal, then, well,
                                it doesn't have THAT, but for the kind of narrative it was, I don't think it
                                really needed it, nor would have made it any better.

                                I was very lucky in that when I saw BWP, I saw it with no preconceptions, no
                                expectations, and no one had ever heard about it. That is really a huge
                                piece of the experience. (In my lame-ass opinion, I think this is the best
                                way to see a movie -- think about how "Planet of the Apes", for example,
                                would have played out if it hadn't been titled "Planet of the Apes")

                                Now, with THAT in mind, I happen to agree with most people that actual
                                cinematic depictions of Lovecraftian monsters quite frankly fall short for
                                the simple and incontrovertible reason that I am still sane after seeing
                                them.

                                Any movie that can crank my tension and sanity as high as BWP did without
                                ever showing me the "monster" is pretty frickin' facile. Furthermore, I
                                know that everybody who DID see "it" died. It could be said that the only
                                reason I'm still alive is that I DIDN'T see it. (and how Lovecraftian is
                                THAT?)

                                Most critiques of the movie revolve around the camera style, which is shared
                                by plenty of other movies. Objections to the fact that the kids didn't know
                                what the hell they were doing or made stupid decisions pretty much ignores
                                the fact that in nearly EVERY horror movie, the heroes or heroines are all
                                people who had no idea what they were doing and made dumb decisions.
                                Sometimes they made better decisions, and sometimes they were a victim or
                                recipient of simple bad luck. Finally, I happen to think that this makes
                                the people MORE believable. Watch TV, watch the news, watch COPS, watch
                                people at a shopping mall, watch Pamela Anderson's porn movie. The thing
                                that, as depressing a thought as it must be, happens when I look at this is
                                that I realize most people ARE ding-dongs. Most people would walk around in
                                the woods with their thumbs so deeply buried in their fannies that they
                                could tickle their uvulas. These ARE real people.

                                The funny thing is that many of Lovecraft's better-known protagonists lose
                                some believability -- for me -- because they're so "perfect". They have
                                such great language and poise, etc. It's like reading "Dune" -- everybody
                                is, in one way or another, especially powerful.

                                A way of looking at BWP is to think that these are the "A" team, the first
                                team in, on a Lovecraftian adventure. They're the ones Randolph Carter
                                comes across while on his adventure, the ordinary folks who were struck dead
                                by their encounter.

                                Cheers,

                                Edward
                              • Someone from the Petting Zoo
                                Blackwing Bear writes OK, that makes every bad slasher flick ever made into something Lovecraftian..... Not really. The closest thing I can think of
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 2, 2003
                                  Blackwing Bear writes "OK, that makes every bad slasher flick ever made into
                                  something Lovecraftian....."

                                  Not really.

                                  The closest thing I can think of immediately to the structure
                                  (pseudo-documentary) of BWP was, in fact, the original Texas Chainsaw
                                  Massacre. Of course, in the case of TCM, the family name wasn't Jermyn...

                                  That aside, a lot of modern horror DOES derive elements from Lovecraft
                                  stories. Put another way, Lovecraft might have been one of the first
                                  authors to, ahem, tap the same vein of horror and to do so prodigiously.

                                  horrible monkey,

                                  Edward
                                • pharseid378
                                  Perhaps we re talking about different phenomenon . I think BWP was a reasonably nice effort, but of every conversation I ve heard about it (admittably not by
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 3, 2003
                                    Perhaps we're talking about different "phenomenon". I think BWP was
                                    a reasonably nice effort, but of every conversation I've heard about
                                    it (admittably not by Lovecraft fans), virtually none of them echoed
                                    your comments, nearly all of them were debates about whether or not
                                    it was real. So you're talking about why you liked it and I'm
                                    talking about why anybody I know ever even heard of it.

                                    You're offended by my comments? Were you involved in the
                                    production of BWP? Or aren't I allowed an opinion? I saw it and it
                                    didn't do anything for me. That's that. Too bad I don't have your
                                    special gifts for watching a movie.

                                    To be honest, I only generally go to a movie or so a year, so I
                                    suppose it isn't surprising it's been a while since I saw a
                                    memorable one. And BWP wasn't. Frankly, I remember very little of
                                    anything specific in it.

                                    I think the real death of good horror movies has been caused by
                                    the changes in the movie business, every movie now has to make half
                                    a billion dollars, so every movie is planned to take all the right
                                    demographic groups and therefore contains the elements you
                                    mentioned. BWP deserves praise for having gotten through this, but
                                    like a number of your other comments about it's cost and it's
                                    innovative nature still don't make me like it. I just need to like
                                    it. Period. The last real craftsman of movie horror I can think of
                                    was John Carpenter. I liked the first Halloween and The Thing remake
                                    and The Fog. Nobody had to explain to me why I liked them. I can
                                    actually remember some film critic complaining about how little
                                    Halloween was made for. I hadn't known when I saw it and didn't care
                                    after I knew. It appears when made for cable and direct to video
                                    markets came into being, the low-budget movie segment pretty much
                                    died and for whatever reason (movies made to spec maybe), you lost
                                    every vestige of originality.

                                    I would actually like to see more innovative films given a chance
                                    to succeed, but again, this doesn't make me like BWP. And yes, if
                                    someone gave me 40 grand or whatever to make a movie, it would
                                    probably only be memorable because of the number of people who died
                                    of boredom watching it, but that, too, doesn't make me like BWP.

                                    It was OK. I liked, say, Jeepers Creepers better, if only because
                                    the monster reminded me of the 60's made for TV movie, Gargoyles,
                                    which was supposed to be inspired by a Lovecraft story (first half
                                    is pretty good, second half very average).

                                    -phar
                                  • dan bailey
                                    ... hadn t heard about the alleged lovecraft connection before ... remember finding the movie pretty decent, though of course i was maybe 11 at the time.
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 3, 2003
                                      > It was OK. I liked, say, Jeepers Creepers better, if only because
                                      >the monster reminded me of the 60's made for TV movie, Gargoyles,
                                      >which was supposed to be inspired by a Lovecraft story

                                      hadn't heard about the alleged lovecraft connection before ... remember
                                      finding the movie pretty decent, though of course i was maybe 11 at the
                                      time.

                                      (first half
                                      >is pretty good, second half very average).

                                      gargoyles or jeepers creepers? the latter -- while defintely far from being
                                      a masterpiece -- certainly had its moments. i found bwp overall more
                                      rewarding, but that's not intended to slam j.c. i suspect neither movie's
                                      sequel is worth watching ... at least, i haven't bothered to find out.

                                      dan

                                      >
                                      >-phar
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      >hplovecraft-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Julia Morgan
                                      The story was Sticks by Karl Edward Wagner - based on a recurring theme in the artwork of Lee Brown Coye. Ref:
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 3, 2003
                                        The story was "Sticks" by Karl Edward Wagner - based on a recurring theme in
                                        the artwork of Lee Brown Coye.

                                        Ref:
                                        http://www.popcultmag.com/obsessions/profilesingreatness/karlwagner/wagner07
                                        .html

                                        Regards
                                        Morgan

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "pharseid378" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                        To: <hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 5:53 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [HP Lovecraft]Blair Witch Project,etc.


                                        >
                                        > Back on the BWP, does anyone remember a Lovecraftian story which
                                        > begins with the chief character finding symbols made out of sticks
                                        > hanging from trees in the woods. I believe I read it in the late
                                        > 70's. In an interview, I think the director of BWP said he got the
                                        > idea of using the stick things from actually finding one in the
                                        > woods, but I immediately recalled that story.
                                        >
                                      • Mad Professor
                                        ... Depends on why you want to see them. In the case of BWP, the sequel is more of a movie than the documentary that the original was supposed to be. As a
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 3, 2003
                                          >i suspect neither movie's sequel is worth watching ... at least, i haven't
                                          >bothered to find out.

                                          Depends on why you want to see them. In the case of BWP, the sequel is more
                                          of a "movie" than the 'documentary' that the original was supposed to be.
                                          As a result, you take it far less seriously...and in a lot of ways, that's
                                          good. I enjoyed it, if only because it didn't take ITSELF too seriously,
                                          either.

                                          As for Jeepers Creepers, if you see the sequel, hoping to finally find out
                                          more about The Creeper...you lose. The sequel is pretty much another
                                          teens-in-the-wild-get-stalked-and-killed flick. Lots of effects and camera
                                          shots, no acting ability (and what acting there was is badly done), and no
                                          real plot (and what plot there is is forced in to make the movie have some
                                          continuity). That's why I was disappointed in it - I was looking forward to
                                          finally getting some backstory on the creature, and got zilch.




                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          "Not only did I disturb your precious angels, but I shredded their silken
                                          wings and drank their heavenly ichor." -- R.J.M. Lofficier

                                          Livejournal: http://archmage.livejournal.com
                                          AIM: SatanasExMachina
                                          Yahoo: chaosblackflame
                                          MSN: Superbeast
                                          ICQ: 309355738





                                          >From: "dan bailey" <dpbailey@...>
                                          >Reply-To: hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: <hplovecraft@yahoogroups.com>
                                          >Subject: Re: [HP Lovecraft]Blair Witch Project,etc.
                                          >Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 04:30:42 -0600
                                          >

                                          _________________________________________________________________
                                          Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger
                                          6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • pharseid378
                                          ... remember ... at the ... I saw it when I was young also and I think it was a good horror movie for the young. ... from being ... more ... movie s ... out.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 3, 2003
                                            >
                                            > hadn't heard about the alleged lovecraft connection before ...
                                            remember
                                            > finding the movie pretty decent, though of course i was maybe 11
                                            at the
                                            > time.

                                            I saw it when I was young also and I think it was a good horror
                                            movie for the young.
                                            >
                                            > (first half
                                            > >is pretty good, second half very average).
                                            >
                                            > gargoyles or jeepers creepers? the latter -- while defintely far
                                            from being
                                            > a masterpiece -- certainly had its moments. i found bwp overall
                                            more
                                            > rewarding, but that's not intended to slam j.c. i suspect neither
                                            movie's
                                            > sequel is worth watching ... at least, i haven't bothered to find
                                            out.
                                            >
                                            I thought the first half of Gargoyles was good. I knew nothing of
                                            Lovecraft at the time, but they did a good job of building up for
                                            the first appearance of the Gargoyles. I think this was very much in
                                            the Lovecraft vein. Quickly after they appeared, it degenerated into
                                            a typical monster movie.

                                            I had some friends who were familiar with Lovecraft then and they
                                            filled me in on the connection, but for the life of me today, I
                                            really don't know what story was supposed to have inspired it.
                                            What's interesting to me now is that the elements I liked then were
                                            all the Lovecraftian ones, and what I disliked were the typical
                                            Hollywood contributions, although it would be ten years or so before
                                            I would read a Lovecraft story. It illustrates to me that Lovecraft
                                            wasn't an acquired taste, there's something fundamental about the
                                            principles he followed.

                                            Anyway, I didn't mention Jeepers Creepers because I thought it was
                                            a masterpiece by any standard, I just thought it was entertaining.
                                            As I've thought about it, I think Hollywood has managed to elevate
                                            the lowest common denominator to an art, they can make an extremely
                                            ordinary story fairly entertaining. In a different genre, it strikes
                                            me that I didn't like anything about the storyline in the Hulk
                                            movie, but it was still entertaining.

                                            -phar
                                          • Zombie Kitty
                                            Old.Ghost@juno.com wrote: Was it a great movie? No. Why was it a phenomenon? It was different than all the run-of-the-mill horror flicks that were out at
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 4, 2003
                                              Old.Ghost@... wrote:
                                              Was it a great movie? No. Why was it a phenomenon? It was
                                              different than all the run-of-the-mill horror flicks that were out at the
                                              time. If someone had had the sense to recognize the Lovecraftian style
                                              of BWP and filmed a true-to-the-text Lovecraft story right after BWP, we
                                              might have seen some great adaptations of Lovecraft tales (and then some
                                              *really* bad ones as Hollywood jumped on the bandwagon with both feet and
                                              ran the franchise into the ground again).

                                              <shrug> YMMV.

                                              ~ Jas.
                                              (By the way, for those who care, my thesis is in final review before
                                              defense. Keep your tentacles crossed.)



                                              Yes, the movie was flawed, but I thought it was quite scary. I liked the fact that we never saw everything the characters saw because I am sure that the stuff that I imagined was way worse that anything they could have shown. :-D Also, the ending totally freaked me out.

                                              Good luck with your review and defense. It's a wonderful feeling when it's all finished.



                                              ~Emily

                                              Spike: Sometimes I like to crumble the Weetabix in the blood. Gives it a little texture.
                                              Giles: Since the picture you just painted means that I will never touch food of any kind again, you'll just have to pick it up yourself.
































                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • east coast
                                              ... My offense is in the fact that you based the BWP phenomenon on the presses duping of the public. Maybe I did a injustice to read between the lines of
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 5, 2003
                                                | Perhaps we're talking about different "phenomenon". I think BWP was
                                                | a reasonably nice effort, but of every conversation I've heard about
                                                | it (admittably not by Lovecraft fans), virtually none of them echoed
                                                | your comments, nearly all of them were debates about whether or not
                                                | it was real. So you're talking about why you liked it and I'm
                                                | talking about why anybody I know ever even heard of it.

                                                | You're offended by my comments? Were you involved in the
                                                |production of BWP? Or aren't I allowed an opinion? I saw it and it
                                                |didn't do anything for me. That's that. Too bad I don't have your
                                                |special gifts for watching a movie.

                                                My offense is in the fact that you based the BWP "phenomenon" on the
                                                presses "duping" of the public. Maybe I did a injustice to read between the
                                                lines of that comment but I think you've done the same to my comments. And I
                                                never said you didn't have a right to an opinion.

                                                | I think the real death of good horror movies has been caused by
                                                |the changes in the movie business, every movie now has to make half
                                                |a billion dollars, so every movie is planned to take all the right
                                                |demographic groups and therefore contains the elements you
                                                |mentioned. BWP deserves praise for having gotten through this, but
                                                |like a number of your other comments about it's cost and it's
                                                |innovative nature still don't make me like it. I just need to like
                                                |it. Period. The last real craftsman of movie horror I can think of
                                                |was John Carpenter. I liked the first Halloween and The Thing remake
                                                |and The Fog. Nobody had to explain to me why I liked them. I can
                                                |actually remember some film critic complaining about how little
                                                |Halloween was made for. I hadn't known when I saw it and didn't care
                                                |after I knew. It appears when made for cable and direct to video
                                                |markets came into being, the low-budget movie segment pretty much
                                                |died and for whatever reason (movies made to spec maybe), you lost
                                                |every vestige of originality.

                                                The business has changed because the movie going public has changed. As
                                                long as the public keeps buying "bigger, faster, more" sequels are going to
                                                continue to be dumbed down version of their originals and any movie that
                                                makes more than production costs is going to be photocopied by other studios
                                                until the formula dies a miserable death at second rate theaters.
                                                Am I saying that the budget of any film makes it good or bad? No, I was
                                                discussing the publics interest in the film (ie, it's "phenomenon"). The
                                                fact that a low budget film had national release certainly did make a big
                                                difference in how the public perceived it.

                                                | I would actually like to see more innovative films given a chance
                                                |to succeed, but again, this doesn't make me like BWP. And yes, if
                                                |someone gave me 40 grand or whatever to make a movie, it would
                                                |probably only be memorable because of the number of people who died
                                                |of boredom watching it, but that, too, doesn't make me like BWP.

                                                That's unfortunate that you feel that way. But I guess that's the reason
                                                "good horror movies" are dead too.

                                                | It was OK. I liked, say, Jeepers Creepers better, if only because
                                                |the monster reminded me of the 60's made for TV movie, Gargoyles,
                                                |which was supposed to be inspired by a Lovecraft story (first half
                                                |is pretty good, second half very average).

                                                If you take the pains to go and re-read my reply you'll see that in no way
                                                did I ever mention your opinion of BWP. Nor, did you ever actually give your
                                                opinion of BWP aside from it being unremarkable. You took a lot of time
                                                defending something I didn't even question. I was simply pointing out the
                                                merits of BWP in the face of large budget/low intelligence Hollywood
                                                slashers that get passed off as horror and why the public responded to it.
                                              • Someone from the Petting Zoo
                                                For those of you interested: http://www.petting-zoo.org/Dreamquest_Newsletter21.html tired movie monkey, Edward
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Nov 7, 2003
                                                  For those of you interested:

                                                  http://www.petting-zoo.org/Dreamquest_Newsletter21.html

                                                  tired movie monkey,

                                                  Edward
                                                • pharseid378
                                                  ... BWP phenomenon on the ... between the ... comments. And I ... Well, I ll repeat my reasons for saying this, perhaps in a little greater detail. I ve
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 7, 2003
                                                    > My offense is in the fact that you based the
                                                    BWP "phenomenon" on the
                                                    > presses "duping" of the public. Maybe I did a injustice to read
                                                    between the
                                                    > lines of that comment but I think you've done the same to my
                                                    comments. And I
                                                    > never said you didn't have a right to an opinion.
                                                    >
                                                    Well, I'll repeat my reasons for saying this, perhaps in a little
                                                    greater detail. I've never met anyone who told me they thought it
                                                    was a remarkable movie on its own merits. I didn't think it was
                                                    remarkable on its own merits. On the other hand, virtually ALL of
                                                    the discussions I've heard about it centered on whether or not it
                                                    was real from one perspective or another. Even ignoring my own views
                                                    of the movie, what should I draw from this?

                                                    I did also see the Sci-Fi channel "special" on BWP and there is no
                                                    doubt this was made to dup the public. If there was some kind of
                                                    disclaimer or something, it was well hidden, but even so, it was
                                                    made to give the impression that BWP was a real documentary. And
                                                    that was part of the phenomenon. If some other part is more
                                                    important to you, then fine. But if you're denying that all this
                                                    went on, it's pretty pointless to debate with you because you're
                                                    just denying reality.

                                                    >
                                                    > | I would actually like to see more innovative films given a
                                                    chance
                                                    > |to succeed, but again, this doesn't make me like BWP. And yes, if
                                                    > |someone gave me 40 grand or whatever to make a movie, it would
                                                    > |probably only be memorable because of the number of people who
                                                    died
                                                    > |of boredom watching it, but that, too, doesn't make me like BWP.
                                                    >
                                                    > That's unfortunate that you feel that way. But I guess
                                                    that's the reason
                                                    > "good horror movies" are dead too.
                                                    >

                                                    I'm really not sure what you're saying here. That it's unfortunate
                                                    that I don't think I could make a good movie? And how does any of
                                                    that relate to good horror movies being dead?

                                                    >
                                                    > If you take the pains to go and re-read my reply you'll see
                                                    that in no way
                                                    > did I ever mention your opinion of BWP. Nor, did you ever actually
                                                    give your
                                                    > opinion of BWP aside from it being unremarkable. You took a lot of
                                                    time
                                                    > defending something I didn't even question. I was simply pointing
                                                    out the
                                                    > merits of BWP in the face of large budget/low intelligence
                                                    Hollywood
                                                    > slashers that get passed off as horror and why the public
                                                    responded to it.

                                                    I wasn't even aware that I had defended my opinion, merely that I
                                                    had stated it. A bunch of times, if I remember correctly. I don't
                                                    know that there is some absolute standard, I think liking art is a
                                                    matter of individual taste, but I could be wrong, BWP might be great
                                                    by some objective measure and I just missed it. Frankly I'm cheesed
                                                    off at your "strongly offended" remark. I just stated what I've
                                                    observed. Do you think I'm making it up? I'm fully cognisant that
                                                    you're going to have different reactions in different demographics
                                                    and my experience is just one data point. But I don't see the
                                                    phenomenon you're talking about (other than your own posts).

                                                    And, in a slightly different vein, it actually appears to me that
                                                    the slasher genre has been watered down and thinned out since its
                                                    haydays in the late 70's and early 80's. I'm sure it would be
                                                    possible to dumb down the original "Friday the 13th" movies, but you
                                                    would have to truck people in from institutions to watch them.
                                                    Actually, I think the few horror movies I've seen in recent years
                                                    have been done by very competent movie people, but just not by real
                                                    horror movie people. I think that's a problem with movies of many
                                                    genres. One odd effect is that acting is often elevated to such a
                                                    level of importance that it gets in the way of the story. I remember
                                                    seeing a number of clips from "Alien III" and thinking, "what a
                                                    great cast, this is going to be excellent" and getting to the movie
                                                    and discovering it to be garbage.

                                                    -phar
                                                  • skiecstacy@aol.com
                                                    The Haunter of the Dark . . . my blood chills thinking of it. No other writer can fill me with the uncontrollable need to double check that my basement door
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 9, 2003
                                                      The Haunter of the Dark . . . my blood chills thinking of it. No other
                                                      writer can fill me with the uncontrollable need to double check that my basement
                                                      door is in fact locked, notwithstanding that I so clearly remember having locked
                                                      it just before retiring to my room.

                                                      Has anyone seen the Red House? A very interesting movie starring Edie G.
                                                      Robinson. Never take that short cut through the woods. . . especially after
                                                      dusk!

                                                      Great group!


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • spauldingae
                                                      ... after ... I haven t, but it sounds interesting. Horror movie? Interesting, considering Robinson is usually more in Film Noirs and Crime Movies.
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 9, 2003
                                                        > Has anyone seen the Red House? A very interesting movie starring Edie G.
                                                        > Robinson. Never take that short cut through the woods. . . especially
                                                        after
                                                        > dusk!

                                                        I haven't, but it sounds interesting. Horror movie? Interesting, considering
                                                        Robinson is usually more in Film Noirs and Crime Movies.
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