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Re: HoCo360

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  • Leslie Kornreich
    Whatever the reason for the behavior, HCPSS will not be able to exert any control over it until it acknowledges and fixes 2 things: First, that there are way
    Message 1 of 44 , Mar 30, 2013
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      Whatever the reason for the behavior, HCPSS will not be able to exert any control over it until it acknowledges and fixes 2 things:

      First, that there are way too many kids on a bus. My daughter has 40 kids on her bus and there are 3 kids to a seat both ways every day. Add musical instruments, backpacks and school projects to that equation and you have overcrowding at its worst. No wonder the driver can't control the kids -- there are way too many of them to know where to start. It's not just the school buildings that suffer from the effects of overcrowding.

      Second, it would be a heck of a lot easier for HCPSS to conduct routine training and monitoring of school bus drivers and their bus conditions IF THEY WERE HCPSS EMPLOYEES. Good luck gathering the employees of 63 outside contractors and regularly monitoring their performance and their experiences with students on the bus.

      Leslie Kornreich




      --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@...> wrote:
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      > Fair enough. But when it comes to behavior on a public transportation that effects opk (other peoples' kids), surely we can impose/insist/require/enforce some minimum behavior standards.
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      > School discipline is positively schizophrenic. We tolerate crap we shouldn't, we lower the boom on stuff that is ridiculous, we throw tons of resources at some things, and leave simple, inexpensive issues to fester.
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      > It seems to me we are all guilty of a form of lousy, inconsistent, ineffective parenting... in school administration anyway (my parenting is above reproach, teehee).
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      > The thing is, when we do try to act .. where is the support from the common sense group when the reactionaries and apologists organize and attack? It just isn't good enough for folks to moan about how they wish things were different, but not help with the hard parts.
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      > Really, it seems to me this whole bus behavior problem would be a good barometer of how we are doing as a school system and as parents and citizens. If we can't safely transport children in an orderly fashion for 20 minutes twice a day, then shame on all of us.
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      > cindy v
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      > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
      > From: bobrosebrough21045@...
      > Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:38:32 +0000
      > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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      > Potentially all of the above
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      > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt
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      > > maybe i'm just dense this early in the morning, bob. what are you saying? the problem is parents? or parents are why we tolerate terrible conditions on school buses? or parents understand the problem? or the school system can't impose discipline because parents resist? or parents these days are raising poorly behaved children?
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      > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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      > > From: bobrosebrough21045@
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      > > Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:00:32 +0000
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      > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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      > > PARENTS - get it!
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      > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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      > > > That is so depressing. Whether there is a question about combining bus routes or not, this behavior on the buses should not be tolerated. I just don't understand it. I rode a bus as an elementary school student and as a high school student (for a few months each time). In both cases the elementary and high school kids rode the same bus. the little kids sat in the front, the high schoolers in the back. we had assigned seats. it just wasn't an issue.
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      > > > When my kids rode the bus (when we lived in Ohio) the bus driver knew each kid by name.
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      > > > This "animal house" baffles me. Why do we tolerate it?
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      > > > cindy v
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      > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > From: lesliekforboe@
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      > > > Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 01:37:03 +0000
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      > > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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      > > > I can't think of a worse idea than putting elementary and middle school kids on the same buses. The behavior, particularly by older elementary students, on the bus is abysmal. They are loud, obnoxious, disrespectful -- you name it. It gets worse in middle school -- and I'm not looking forward to my daughter having to put up with it.
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      > > > Our driver has a hard enough time dealing with misbehavior from elementary kids on his bus -- but at least they are young enough to still respond when he threatens to talk to the AP at the school about them. Imagine bigger, stronger, more obnoxious middle schoolers threatening actual physical harm to our little ones. Imagine the driver trying to figure out if a kid is in elementary or middle school and having to contact two APs on a regular basis about the behavior on the bus.
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      > > > Leslie Kornreich
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      > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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      > > > > I agree. None should start before 8am. When I was in school (public school...1960s-1979) at all three levels the last bell of the day was 3:15. As I recall there were slight differences in start times. I think elementary may have started at 9am...but junior and senior high school had an 8:15 warning bell and an 8:20 start of the day. Home room was, as I recall, 6 minutes...because there were some business kinds of things that needed to be done, announcements, etc. Then 4 minutes to change class, and 1st period started at 8:30. each period was 41 minutes followed by a 4 minute class change interval. That way all the classes started on a 1/4 hour interval. (8:30...9:15...10...10:45...11:30...12:15 ... 1:00...1:45 ...2:30... last bell 3:15.
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      > > > > In high school kids with jobs, or internships, or some project - who were in academic and behavioral good standing -- could apply for "early release". They could leave at 2:30.
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      > > > > I was thinking that if we extended the elementary and middle school days... (not be simply adding minutes to the end of the day at the current scheduled release time) ... we might want to offer a similar "early release option" for kids who are in good standing and participating in an educationally worthwhile activity...like... music lessons, match tutoring ... theater or art class.. or who need a shorter day for other reasons. Parents who want early release would have to provide transportation - sort of the opposite of what we do now with the intramurals when parents agree to pick up their children later than usual.
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      > > > > As for transportation.... how do people feel about having middle and elementary age kids on the same buses?
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      > > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > From: kcoombs1209@
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      > > > > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:51:13 +0000
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      > > > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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      > > > > It seems this system has become overcomplicated. Young children typically wake up early. Teens wake up later. Regardless, school should not start before 8 AM for anyone. It isn't healthy and it doesn't replicate the normal working day. For my 12 years of education, we always started around 8:05 and ended around 2:30.
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      > > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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      > > > > > I think all of the schools should operate on schedules that are designed to be the most effective and developmentally appropriate for the education of children... not so the buses can run on time. The elementary schools that release the latest are the ones that start the latest. It seems to me something like 8:30-3:30 would be reasonable.
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      > > > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > > From: gwh731@
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      > > > > > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 01:13:19 +0000
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      > > > > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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      > > > > > I am very open to an extended school day for elementary and middle. I am curious about how HCPSS compares to other systems in the area for # of minutes at each instructional level. I recall some years back that minutes had to be added fro high school, I believe, because the HCPSS was not even at the state minimum.
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      > > > > > One of my concerns about extended the day concerns closing times. Many of our elementary schools close at 3:55 p.m. I would hope that this would be the LATEST schools could be open and that the times be added to the morning.
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      > > > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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      > > > > > > I think we need to look at adding some time to our school day in order to pace things more reasonably. I think it would be much more effective to have lunch and recess in a more relaxed setting. Then the lunch break would be reinvigorating instead of stress inducing. If we want to have an effective "world language" program in the elementary schools, we need to make time for it. We are trying to cram too much stuff into too little time. It is stressful for the kids and the teachers, and in the end, imho, less effective and unhealthy.
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      > > > > > > So far parents I have spoken to are very open to a longer school day. I would like to hear from anyone with an opinion, concern, or feedback.
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      > > > > > > cindy v
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      > > > > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > > > From: pamythompson@
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      > > > > > > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 04:01:19 +0000
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      > > > > > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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      > > > > > > Those workers are at the mercy of Klatco. Very serious issue isn't it.
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      > > > > > > jack
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      > > > > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, Ann De Lacy <anndelacy@> wrote:
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      > > > > > > > Jack,
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      > > > > > > > The Health and Wellness Policy will be open for public forum on April 11; why don't you and others on this forum speak about the lunches? In a number of instances the Cafeteria Assistant/Manager is the only employee. That person is not allowed to join HCEA because she or he is in management albeit of him or herself! Go figure.
      >
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      > > > > > > > Ann D.
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      > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad
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      > > > > > > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:42 PM, "pamythompson" <pamythompson@> wrote:
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      > > > > > > > > "We are going to have to be open to significant changes to the way "things have always been done".
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      > > > > > > > > Mrs. Vaillancourt,
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      > > > > > > > > It appears this discussion is yours. Please share with us your ideas as to what changes we need in order to improve the quality of health for our children regarding meals and recess.
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      > > > > > > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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      > > > > > > > > > These too short lunch and insufficient recess breaks HAVE to be fixed. It is ludicrous. In order to provide reasonable lunch and recess breaks along with all the other programs we think are valuable and important we are going to have to be open to significant changes to the way "things have always been done".
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      > > > > > > > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > > > > > > > From: rl.edu@
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      > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 22:29:44 -0400
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      > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] HoCo360
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      > > > > > > > > > On 03/26/2013 12:03 PM, Ann De Lacy wrote:
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      > > > > > > > > > > How many of your children experience lunches such as these?
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      > > > > > > > > > > http://hoco360.blogspot.com/
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      > > > > > > > > > There's no time to buy lunch. Early on, I didn't want to pack lunches
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      > > > > > > > > > and wanted the kids to buy lunch at school. On take your parent to
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      > > > > > > > > > school day witnessed my son standing in line for 20 minutes, and in the
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      > > > > > > > > > remaining 10 minutes, he wolfed down a little lunch and threw the rest
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    • MICHELLE WOOD
      I agree with Leslie, and I also agree with Cindy that it is depressing. There may be some bus routes where it could work, but for many it will not. Review the
      Message 44 of 44 , Apr 1, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        I agree with Leslie, and I also agree with Cindy that it is depressing.  There may be some bus routes where it could work, but for many it will not.  Review the HCEA survey results and look at the question which addressed student behavior interfering with learning.  Busses serving those schools in which the majority of teachers report this as an issue are likely going to have the biggest problems.  After all, if the students are capable of disrupting learning in a classroom, imagine what they can do while they are essentially unmonitored on a bus!  And anyone who thinks that a 5th grade student (safety patrol) can get "problem students" to behave on a bus when teachers are having difficulty with those students is delusional.  There are a lot of students in our schools (even elementary schools) who do not demonstrate respect for anyone, not for other students, not for teachers, not even for administrators.  I have seen it first hand.  Too many parents today fail to discipline their kids.  Combine that with a school system that has no stomach for discipline and we have a recipe for disaster.  It is the kids who follow the rules who suffer in the end, and that is not fair.  When I was in elementary school (public school in Virginia), the principal actually had a paddle and authority to spank.  I don't think he had to use it very often, because the deterrent was enough.  I'm not suggesting that HCPSS should go that far, but I feel that far too often the school system is loathe to even use whatever disciplinary tools it DOES have at its disposal.  Riding the bus should be considered a privilege, not a right.  If the schools actually forced parents of problem kids to provide their own transportation, then the bus ride would be fine for all grade levels together.  No child should have to be subjected to profanity, bullying, and/or harassment on the school bus just because the school system lacks the will to enforce basic behavioral standards.  A bus driver's role is to safely transport children to school.  There is no way he/she can simultaneously keep his/her eyes and ears on the road and on the kids in the back of the bus.  A bus can easily hold 50 students!  At a minimum, busses (particularly those with existing behavior problems) should have a second adult rider whose sole purpose is to maintain discipline on the bus.  However, I have only seen that done as a short-term fix and then everything reverts back to business as usual as soon as that adult is no longer there.  Sadly, I do not foresee any improvement to our current bus situation and I could not in good conscience advocate expanding the age range on the bus, making it an even more hostile environment for those children who are forced to ride the bus. 
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com [mailto:howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of cynthia vaillancourt
        Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 10:51 PM
        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360

         

        That is so depressing.  Whether there is a question about combining bus routes or not, this behavior on the buses should not be tolerated.  I just don't understand it.  I rode a bus as an elementary school student and as a high school student (for a few months each time).  In both cases the elementary and high school kids rode the same bus.  the little kids sat in the front, the high schoolers in the  back.  we had assigned seats.  it just wasn't an issue. 
        When my kids rode the bus (when we lived in Ohio) the bus driver knew each kid by name. 
        This "animal house" baffles me.  Why do we tolerate it?
        cindy v


        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        From: lesliekforboe@...
        Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 01:37:03 +0000
        Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360

         
        I can't think of a worse idea than putting elementary and middle school kids on the same buses. The behavior, particularly by older elementary students, on the bus is abysmal. They are loud, obnoxious, disrespectful -- you name it. It gets worse in middle school -- and I'm not looking forward to my daughter having to put up with it.

        Our driver has a hard enough time dealing with misbehavior from elementary kids on his bus -- but at least they are young enough to still respond when he threatens to talk to the AP at the school about them. Imagine bigger, stronger, more obnoxious middle schoolers threatening actual physical harm to our little ones. Imagine the driver trying to figure out if a kid is in elementary or middle school and having to contact two APs on a regular basis about the behavior on the bus.

        Keep them separate.

        Leslie Kornreich

        --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I agree. None should start before 8am. When I was in school (public school...1960s-1979) at all three levels the last bell of the day was 3:15. As I recall there were slight differences in start times. I think elementary may have started at 9am...but junior and senior high school had an 8:15 warning bell and an 8:20 start of the day. Home room was, as I recall, 6 minutes...because there were some business kinds of things that needed to be done, announcements, etc. Then 4 minutes to change class, and 1st period started at 8:30. each period was 41 minutes followed by a 4 minute class change interval. That way all the classes started on a 1/4 hour interval. (8:30...9:15...10...10:45...11:30...12:15 ... 1:00...1:45 ...2:30... last bell 3:15.
        >
        > In high school kids with jobs, or internships, or some project - who were in academic and behavioral good standing -- could apply for "early release". They could leave at 2:30.
        >
        > I was thinking that if we extended the elementary and middle school days... (not be simply adding minutes to the end of the day at the current scheduled release time) ... we might want to offer a similar "early release option" for kids who are in good standing and participating in an educationally worthwhile activity...like... music lessons, match tutoring ... theater or art class.. or who need a shorter day for other reasons. Parents who want early release would have to provide transportation - sort of the opposite of what we do now with the intramurals when parents agree to pick up their children later than usual.
        >
        > As for transportation.... how do people feel about having middle and elementary age kids on the same buses?
        >
        > cv
        >
        > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        > From: kcoombs1209@...
        > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:51:13 +0000
        > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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        > It seems this system has become overcomplicated. Young children typically wake up early. Teens wake up later. Regardless, school should not start before 8 AM for anyone. It isn't healthy and it doesn't replicate the normal working day. For my 12 years of education, we always started around 8:05 and ended around 2:30.
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        >
        > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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        > > I think all of the schools should operate on schedules that are designed to be the most effective and developmentally appropriate for the education of children... not so the buses can run on time. The elementary schools that release the latest are the ones that start the latest. It seems to me something like 8:30-3:30 would be reasonable.
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        > > cv
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        > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > > From: gwh731@
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        > > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 01:13:19 +0000
        >
        > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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        > > I am very open to an extended school day for elementary and middle. I am curious about how HCPSS compares to other systems in the area for # of minutes at each instructional level. I recall some years back that minutes had to be added fro high school, I believe, because the HCPSS was not even at the state minimum.
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        > > One of my concerns about extended the day concerns closing times. Many of our elementary schools close at 3:55 p.m. I would hope that this would be the LATEST schools could be open and that the times be added to the morning.
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        > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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        > > > I think we need to look at adding some time to our school day in order to pace things more reasonably. I think it would be much more effective to have lunch and recess in a more relaxed setting. Then the lunch break would be reinvigorating instead of stress inducing. If we want to have an effective "world language" program in the elementary schools, we need to make time for it. We are trying to cram too much stuff into too little time. It is stressful for the kids and the teachers, and in the end, imho, less effective and unhealthy.
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        > > > So far parents I have spoken to are very open to a longer school day. I would like to hear from anyone with an opinion, concern, or feedback.
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        > > > cindy v
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        > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > >
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        > > > From: pamythompson@
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 04:01:19 +0000
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        > > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: HoCo360
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        > > > Those workers are at the mercy of Klatco. Very serious issue isn't it.
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        > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, Ann De Lacy <anndelacy@> wrote:
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        > > > > The Health and Wellness Policy will be open for public forum on April 11; why don't you and others on this forum speak about the lunches? In a number of instances the Cafeteria Assistant/Manager is the only employee. That person is not allowed to join HCEA because she or he is in management albeit of him or herself! Go figure.
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        > > > > Ann D.
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        > > > > Sent from my iPad
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        > > > > On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:42 PM, "pamythompson" <pamythompson@> wrote:
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        > > > > > "We are going to have to be open to significant changes to the way "things have always been done".
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        > > > > > Mrs. Vaillancourt,
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        > > > > > It appears this discussion is yours. Please share with us your ideas as to what changes we need in order to improve the quality of health for our children regarding meals and recess.
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        > > > > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@> wrote:
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        > > > > > > These too short lunch and insufficient recess breaks HAVE to be fixed. It is ludicrous. In order to provide reasonable lunch and recess breaks along with all the other programs we think are valuable and important we are going to have to be open to significant changes to the way "things have always been done".
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        > > > > > > cindyv
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        > > > > > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
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        > > > > > > From: rl.edu@
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        > > > > > > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 22:29:44 -0400
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        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] HoCo360
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        > > > > > > On 03/26/2013 12:03 PM, Ann De Lacy wrote:
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        > > > > > > > How many of your children experience lunches such as these?
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        > > > > > > > http://hoco360.blogspot.com/
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        > > > > > > There's no time to buy lunch. Early on, I didn't want to pack lunches
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        > > > > > > and wanted the kids to buy lunch at school. On take your parent to
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        > > > > > > school day witnessed my son standing in line for 20 minutes, and in the
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        > > > > > > remaining 10 minutes, he wolfed down a little lunch and threw the rest
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        > > > > > > away. Ever since, we packed lunches for the kids.
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        > > > > > > --
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        > > > > > > Ray Lischner
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