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Re: TRUTH: Not All Programs Work for All Kids

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  • perlpubl
    Ok Tom, I m a little dense but I get it. You ask questions and I respond and then you change the conditions and ask different questions. All this stuff about
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 12, 2007
      Ok Tom, I'm a little dense but I get it.

      You ask questions and I respond and then you change the conditions
      and ask different questions. All this stuff about the five forms of
      knowledge and a negative multiplied by a negative is a positive is
      peripheral to your central theme of how great Direct Instruction is.

      Fine.

      Barry Tevelow

      --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "tneumark2000"
      <tneumark2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "perlpubl" <barrytevelow@>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > Having been around a great number of different types of
      students,
      > > I can't guarantee all students will be able to learn the rule
      and
      > > be able to use it effectively.
      >
      > In Direct Instruction, teachers work with students until all of
      them
      > master the material. Students may master the material at
      different
      > rates, but all of them are given time to master it.
      >
      >
      > > Again, I will keep this brief. Among many examples, I think
      > > Buddhists would say knowledge gained through concentrated
      personal
      > > mental experiences is another form. I think Maslow (hierarchy
      of
      > > human needs) would say knowledge gained through peak experiences
      > > is another form.
      >
      > There is a difference between how knowledge is acquired
      (concentratd
      > personal mental experiences or peak experiences) and the form that
      > knowledge takes (verbal associations, concepts, and so on).
      >
      > Can you give me an example of a specific piece of knowledge
      relevant
      > to K-12 schooling that cannot be expressed in one of the five
      forms?
      >
      > Tom Neumark
      >
    • tneumark2000
      ... of ... No, not really. I started with the five forms of knowledge. You said that other cultures had different ideas. I asked for an example of something
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 12, 2007
        --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "perlpubl" <barrytevelow@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Ok Tom, I'm a little dense but I get it.
        >
        > You ask questions and I respond and then you change the conditions
        > and ask different questions. All this stuff about the five forms
        of
        > knowledge and a negative multiplied by a negative is a positive is
        > peripheral to your central theme of how great Direct Instruction is.
        >
        > Fine.

        No, not really. I started with the five forms of knowledge. You
        said that other cultures had different ideas. I asked for an example
        of something that was relevant to K-12 education that didn't fit
        within this framework. I still haven't gotten an example.

        I don't think I changed the conditions. I thought we were talking
        about knowledge and skills that were relevant to K-12 education the
        whole time. When did I change the conditions?

        Forget DI, I just want an example of something that doesn't meet the
        five forms of knowledge criteria.

        Tom Neumark
      • joan_pontius
        ... knowledge about aesthetics and beauty.
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 12, 2007
          --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "tneumark2000"
          <tneumark2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "perlpubl" <barrytevelow@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Ok Tom, I'm a little dense but I get it.
          > >
          > > You ask questions and I respond and then you change the conditions
          > > and ask different questions. All this stuff about the five forms
          > of
          > > knowledge and a negative multiplied by a negative is a positive is
          > > peripheral to your central theme of how great Direct Instruction is.
          > >
          > > Fine.
          >
          > No, not really. I started with the five forms of knowledge. You
          > said that other cultures had different ideas. I asked for an example
          > of something that was relevant to K-12 education that didn't fit
          > within this framework. I still haven't gotten an example.
          >
          > I don't think I changed the conditions. I thought we were talking
          > about knowledge and skills that were relevant to K-12 education the
          > whole time. When did I change the conditions?
          >
          > Forget DI, I just want an example of something that doesn't meet the
          > five forms of knowledge criteria.
          >
          > Tom Neumark




          knowledge about aesthetics and beauty.
        • perlpubl
          I gave you responses to forms of knowledge - Buddhist / Maslow / American Indian. You stated that those are ways of acquiring knowledge. Further, you imply
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
            I gave you responses to forms of knowledge - Buddhist / Maslow /
            American Indian. You stated that those are ways of acquiring
            knowledge. Further, you imply they don't have anything to do with k-
            12 education.

            We can agree to disagree. I believe they are forms of knowledge
            themselves (not a method for acquiring knowledge).

            Do they have something to do with k-12 education? I believe the
            answer is yes. Although not currently in any United States
            curriculum that I am aware of, I believe they should be.

            Barry Tevelow



            --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "tneumark2000"
            <tneumark2000@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "perlpubl" <barrytevelow@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Ok Tom, I'm a little dense but I get it.
            > >
            > > You ask questions and I respond and then you change the
            conditions
            > > and ask different questions. All this stuff about the five
            forms
            > of
            > > knowledge and a negative multiplied by a negative is a positive
            is
            > > peripheral to your central theme of how great Direct Instruction
            is.
            > >
            > > Fine.
            >
            > No, not really. I started with the five forms of knowledge. You
            > said that other cultures had different ideas. I asked for an
            example
            > of something that was relevant to K-12 education that didn't fit
            > within this framework. I still haven't gotten an example.
            >
            > I don't think I changed the conditions. I thought we were talking
            > about knowledge and skills that were relevant to K-12 education
            the
            > whole time. When did I change the conditions?
            >
            > Forget DI, I just want an example of something that doesn't meet
            the
            > five forms of knowledge criteria.
            >
            > Tom Neumark
            >
          • tneumark2000
            ... This knowledge can be explicitly taught. What makes a particular painting beautiful or interesting, for instance? Picasso was interesting because he
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
              --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "joan_pontius"
              <joan_pontius@...> wrote:
              >
              > knowledge about aesthetics and beauty.

              This knowledge can be explicitly taught. What makes a particular
              painting beautiful or interesting, for instance? Picasso was
              interesting because he showed multiple perspectives simultaneously.
              Monet's paintings are beautiful because he applied bright colors and
              used small strokes but didn't blend the colors, which resulted in a
              new style called impressionism. Students can be shown examples of
              these paintings and then would understand these descriptions.

              Isn't this the kind of knowledge we might expect from students? Do
              you disagree that it can be taught?

              Tom Neumark
            • tneumark2000
              ... Ok, so can you give me an example of some specific piece of knowledge that was obtained from a peak performance or personal experience, for instance? Tom
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
                --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "perlpubl" <barrytevelow@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I gave you responses to forms of knowledge - Buddhist / Maslow /
                > American Indian. You stated that those are ways of acquiring
                > knowledge. Further, you imply they don't have anything to do with
                > k-12 education.
                >
                > We can agree to disagree. I believe they are forms of knowledge
                > themselves (not a method for acquiring knowledge).

                Ok, so can you give me an example of some specific piece of knowledge
                that was obtained from a peak performance or personal experience, for
                instance?

                Tom Neumark
              • RSYOSH@aol.com
                Hmmm - what was the original question? I have no idea where this discussion is going. Unless it s a sales pitch for Direct Instruction. But I CAN tell you
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
                  Hmmm - what was the original question?
                  I have no idea where this discussion is going. Unless it's a sales pitch for
                  Direct Instruction.

                  But I CAN tell you this - an attorney advocating in Special Education, not
                  all programs work for all kids.
                  You ARE familiar with Individualized Education Plans (IEP) aren't you? And
                  IDEA 2004? And
                  34 CFR Parts 300 and 301? The Rehabilitation Act of 1973?

                  - Becky


                  In a message dated 2/13/2007 9:00:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  tneumark2000@... writes:
                  --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "joan_pontius"
                  <joan_pontius@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > knowledge about aesthetics and beauty.

                  This knowledge can be explicitly taught. What makes a particular
                  painting beautiful or interesting, for instance? Picasso was
                  interesting because he showed multiple perspectives simultaneously.
                  Monet's paintings are beautiful because he applied bright colors and
                  used small strokes but didn't blend the colors, which resulted in a
                  new style called impressionism. Students can be shown examples of
                  these paintings and then would understand these descriptions.

                  Isn't this the kind of knowledge we might expect from students? Do
                  you disagree that it can be taught?

                  Tom Neumark
                • perlpubl
                  ... knowledge ... for ... I can. But, I choose not to. If you are really interested read Bohm, Einstein, Krishnamurty, Lefevre, F. David Peat and we can
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
                    > Ok, so can you give me an example of some specific piece of
                    knowledge
                    > that was obtained from a peak performance or personal experience,
                    for
                    > instance?
                    >
                    > Tom Neumark

                    I can. But, I choose not to.

                    If you are really interested read Bohm, Einstein, Krishnamurty,
                    Lefevre, F. David Peat and we can continue the discussion off-line.

                    Barry Tevelow
                  • tneumark2000
                    ... The original question was whether the five forms of knowledge were agreeable. We seem to have strayed from this. ... Ha! No sales pitch here. I m
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
                      --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, RSYOSH@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Hmmm - what was the original question?

                      The original question was whether the five forms of knowledge were
                      agreeable. We seem to have strayed from this.

                      > I have no idea where this discussion is going. Unless it's a
                      > sales pitch for Direct Instruction.

                      Ha! No sales pitch here. I'm following the evidence where it
                      leads. I'm also trying to get someone to give me an example of
                      knowledge that cannot be expressed in one of the five forms of
                      knowledge I put forth. So far no one has come up with an example.

                      > But I CAN tell you this - an attorney advocating in Special
                      > Education, not all programs work for all kids.

                      There will always be exceptions. However, special education
                      students have responded extremely well to DI. In one study of
                      special education students the effect size was .90, which is one of
                      the largest ever recorded.

                      http://www.newhorizons.org/spneeds/inclusion/teaching/marchand%
                      20martella%20ausdemore.htm

                      > You ARE familiar with Individualized Education Plans (IEP)
                      > aren't you? And IDEA 2004? And
                      > 34 CFR Parts 300 and 301? The Rehabilitation Act of 1973?

                      Yes, but IEPs can be met using a structured program. Just becuase a
                      student is special ed doesn't necessarily mean they need a custom
                      program.

                      Tom Neumark
                    • tneumark2000
                      ... Why? If you can support your case, please do so. Just one example is all I m asking. Tom Neumark
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 13, 2007
                        --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "perlpubl" <barrytevelow@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > > Ok, so can you give me an example of some specific piece of
                        > knowledge
                        > > that was obtained from a peak performance or personal experience,
                        > for
                        > > instance?
                        > >
                        > > Tom Neumark
                        >
                        > I can. But, I choose not to.

                        Why? If you can support your case, please do so. Just one example is
                        all I'm asking.

                        Tom Neumark
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