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Re: Will This Year's Candidates Have a Better Debate?

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  • tneumark2000
    Arguments by comparsion or analogy are valid, so long as the analogy is relevant. I think the point still stands that the debate about public education is
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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      Arguments by comparsion or analogy are valid, so long as the analogy
      is relevant. I think the point still stands that the debate about
      public education is usually framed in terms of how we can continue
      to support public education, not in offering alternatives to
      government run schools.

      Tom Neumark

      --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
      <bobrosebrough21045@...> wrote:
      >
      > I take it that somewhere in your education background you have
      taken
      > some sort course in logic and know its three falacies. You have
      given
      > a particularily egregious example of a type two fault -
      parallelism in
      > argumentation
      >
      > "---like discussing the eradication of poverty
      > declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
      > Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the future
      of
      > America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will
      strengthen
      > the Department of Agriculture"
      >
      > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "tneumark2000"
      > <tneumark2000@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Let's hope this year's candidates can rise above status quo
      rhetoric
      > > and address some specific issues. Here's a quote that describe
      many an
      > > education debate:
      > >
      > > "Focusing on the future of public education in terms of the
      existing
      > > public school system is like discussing the eradication of
      poverty
      > > declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
      > > Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the
      future of
      > > America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will
      strengthen
      > > the Department of Agriculture. ... it is a measure of the level
      of the
      > > educational debate that the educrats have been able to frame the
      > > debate on effective schools in such nakedly bureaucrat-o-centric
      > > terms."
      > >
      > > -- Charles Sykes, Dumbing Down Our Kids
      > >
      >
    • The Sola's
      My definition of Education is that all children are able to learn,-all subjects- (see Jamie Escalante) that as long as we have teachers who believe this
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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        My definition of Education is that all children are able to learn,-all
        subjects- (see Jamie Escalante) that as long as we have teachers who
        believe this assumption we have children who may achieve at the highest
        levels. Tests ought to be used as diagnostic tools allowing the teacher to
        discover what a child does not understand and then teach the child.
        Training is using a test to define a child then locking the child into a
        track and assuming that is child has found his or her place in the world.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "tneumark2000" <tneumark2000@...>
        To: <howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:32 PM
        Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: Will This Year's Candidates Have a Better
        Debate?


        > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "The Sola's" <pmbsola@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> What if education broke-as opposed to training- out would all the
        >> kids learn?
        >>
        >> PSola
        >
        > This is an interesting comment. Can you explain this a little more?
        > I'm not sure I quite understand yet.
        >
        > Tom
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages
        > posted here are placed in the public domain unless the poster states
        > otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper articles) retain their
        > original copyright status.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • The Sola's
        My problem is that when we go to alternate methods of educating who will receive the benefits. the poor or those able to utilize vouchers or what ever sysyem
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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          My problem is that when we go to alternate methods of educating who will
          receive the benefits. the poor or those able to utilize vouchers or what
          ever sysyem proposed.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "tneumark2000" <tneumark2000@...>
          To: <howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 7:54 AM
          Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: Will This Year's Candidates Have a Better
          Debate?


          > Arguments by comparsion or analogy are valid, so long as the analogy
          > is relevant. I think the point still stands that the debate about
          > public education is usually framed in terms of how we can continue
          > to support public education, not in offering alternatives to
          > government run schools.
          >
          > Tom Neumark
          >
          > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
          > <bobrosebrough21045@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> I take it that somewhere in your education background you have
          > taken
          >> some sort course in logic and know its three falacies. You have
          > given
          >> a particularily egregious example of a type two fault -
          > parallelism in
          >> argumentation
          >>
          >> "---like discussing the eradication of poverty
          >> declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
          >> Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the future
          > of
          >> America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will
          > strengthen
          >> the Department of Agriculture"
          >>
          >> --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "tneumark2000"
          >> <tneumark2000@> wrote:
          >> >
          >> > Let's hope this year's candidates can rise above status quo
          > rhetoric
          >> > and address some specific issues. Here's a quote that describe
          > many an
          >> > education debate:
          >> >
          >> > "Focusing on the future of public education in terms of the
          > existing
          >> > public school system is like discussing the eradication of
          > poverty
          >> > declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
          >> > Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the
          > future of
          >> > America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will
          > strengthen
          >> > the Department of Agriculture. ... it is a measure of the level
          > of the
          >> > educational debate that the educrats have been able to frame the
          >> > debate on effective schools in such nakedly bureaucrat-o-centric
          >> > terms."
          >> >
          >> > -- Charles Sykes, Dumbing Down Our Kids
          >> >
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages
          > posted here are placed in the public domain unless the poster states
          > otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper articles) retain their
          > original copyright status.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • cynthia vaillancourt
          Tom - reward those who actually have ideas and are open to learning themselves --- use your energy to back a candidate or two (or three) and get the word out.
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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            Tom - reward those who actually have ideas and are open to learning
            themselves --- use your energy to back a candidate or two (or three) and get
            the word out.

            It is not really a question of thinking people voting for good candidates
            ---

            It's a question of how to get all the masses of people who show up to vote
            without any idea who the BOE candfidates are to push the "right" button.

            My biggest fear is that too many people will show up and think "hmmm, Sandy
            French, that name sounds familiar, I'll vote for her" --- without
            remembering that the name is familiar because she was on the board making
            decisions that led to the O'Rourke debacle, the incredibly expensive and
            ultimately failing legal battles, and the foolish if not plain stupid
            handling of the various "scandals".

            We have good candidates --- what we need are foot wsoldiers getting the word
            out to the voters.

            cindy v.


            >From: "tneumark2000" <tneumark2000@...>
            >Reply-To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
            >To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [howardpubliced] Will This Year's Candidates Have a Better Debate?
            >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 20:20:35 -0000
            >
            >Let's hope this year's candidates can rise above status quo rhetoric
            >and address some specific issues. Here's a quote that describe many an
            >education debate:
            >
            >"Focusing on the future of public education in terms of the existing
            >public school system is like discussing the eradication of poverty
            >declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
            >Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the future of
            >America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will strengthen
            >the Department of Agriculture. ... it is a measure of the level of the
            >educational debate that the educrats have been able to frame the
            >debate on effective schools in such nakedly bureaucrat-o-centric
            >terms."
            >
            >-- Charles Sykes, Dumbing Down Our Kids
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages
            >posted here are placed in the public domain unless the poster states
            >otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper articles) retain their
            >original copyright status.
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • cynthia vaillancourt
            Tom, The thing about Bob is that he is very smart, has been around the block a couple of tiimes :), and actually puts his money where his mouth is with
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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              Tom,
              The thing about Bob is that he is very smart, has been around the block a
              couple of tiimes :), and actually puts his "money where his mouth is" with
              working with kids, raising them, educating them, etc has a wealth of
              obscure information--- and his "critiques" - though often unnecessarily
              harsh and snarky - usually touch on some truth (except of course when he
              criticizes me).

              Whether you choose to re-evaluate your positions based on Bob's comments or
              not (you probably don't disagree as much as it might seem).... it may be
              wise to consider his "attacks" on your posts as a learning experience on how
              to more effectively communicate your desired message.

              If he is saying it, you can bet others are thinking it. If he is
              misunderstanding your intent, you might consider reworking it. If he is
              questioning your motives, you might consider presenting them.

              I'm not suggesting you put too much stock in any one person's opinion --- I
              would, however, suggest that Bob is an interesting barometer that can be
              used to refine your approach and your message to optimize your eventual
              success.

              offered from experience,
              cindy v.


              >From: "tneumark2000" <tneumark2000@...>
              >Reply-To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
              >To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: Will This Year's Candidates Have a Better
              >Debate?
              >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 11:54:28 -0000
              >
              >Arguments by comparsion or analogy are valid, so long as the analogy
              >is relevant. I think the point still stands that the debate about
              >public education is usually framed in terms of how we can continue
              >to support public education, not in offering alternatives to
              >government run schools.
              >
              >Tom Neumark
              >
              >--- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
              ><bobrosebrough21045@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I take it that somewhere in your education background you have
              >taken
              > > some sort course in logic and know its three falacies. You have
              >given
              > > a particularily egregious example of a type two fault -
              >parallelism in
              > > argumentation
              > >
              > > "---like discussing the eradication of poverty
              > > declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
              > > Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the future
              >of
              > > America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will
              >strengthen
              > > the Department of Agriculture"
              > >
              > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "tneumark2000"
              > > <tneumark2000@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Let's hope this year's candidates can rise above status quo
              >rhetoric
              > > > and address some specific issues. Here's a quote that describe
              >many an
              > > > education debate:
              > > >
              > > > "Focusing on the future of public education in terms of the
              >existing
              > > > public school system is like discussing the eradication of
              >poverty
              > > > declaring that the top priority must be the preservation of the
              > > > Department of Health and Human Services, or discussing the
              >future of
              > > > America's farmers in terms of whether or not policies will
              >strengthen
              > > > the Department of Agriculture. ... it is a measure of the level
              >of the
              > > > educational debate that the educrats have been able to frame the
              > > > debate on effective schools in such nakedly bureaucrat-o-centric
              > > > terms."
              > > >
              > > > -- Charles Sykes, Dumbing Down Our Kids
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages
              >posted here are placed in the public domain unless the poster states
              >otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper articles) retain their
              >original copyright status.
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • tneumark2000
              ... It s a good question, and the answer depends on the form of school choice. The direct benefits of a voucher system can go specifically to poor students,
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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                --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "The Sola's" <pmbsola@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > My problem is that when we go to alternate methods of educating
                > who will receive the benefits. the poor or those able to utilize
                > vouchers or what ever sysyem proposed.

                It's a good question, and the answer depends on the form of school
                choice. The direct benefits of a voucher system can go specifically
                to poor students, since you can design a system in which only poor
                students are eligible for the voucher. The indirect benefits go to
                all students, since the school system will respond to competition by
                improving its offerings.

                In terms school choice through charter schools, the students who go
                to a charter school that serves them better will benefit. If they
                find that the charter school isn't serving them better, they are
                allowed to go back to the regular public schools at any time. Here,
                too, the indirect benefits also go to the students in the regular
                public schools, since those schools will feel pressure to improve.

                We don't have many charter schools in Maryland, and there are none
                in Howard County as far as I know. Has any candidate come out
                publicly for encouraging more charter schools?

                Tom Neumark
              • tneumark2000
                ... I agree with that. It s a tough job to get the masses to push the right button. In Montgomery County we organized hundreds of volunteers to work the
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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                  --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                  <CynthiaVaillancourt@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It is not really a question of thinking people voting for good
                  > candidates
                  > ---
                  >
                  > It's a question of how to get all the masses of people who show up
                  > to vote without any idea who the BOE candfidates are to push
                  > the "right" button.

                  I agree with that. It's a tough job to get the masses to push the
                  right button. In Montgomery County we organized hundreds of
                  volunteers to work the polls during the last election, but a
                  combination of the union's larger number of poll workers and the
                  average voter not caring as much about the BOE races still left our
                  candidates in second place. We got close, but just not close enough.

                  Tom Neumark
                • tneumark2000
                  ... I didn t consider his recent comments to be anything but good challenging questions. I have no problem with those sorts of postings. Tom Neumark
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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                    --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                    <CynthiaVaillancourt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > it may be wise to consider his "attacks" on your posts as a
                    > learning experience on how
                    > to more effectively communicate your desired message.

                    I didn't consider his recent comments to be anything but good
                    challenging questions. I have no problem with those sorts of postings.

                    Tom Neumark
                  • tneumark2000
                    ... I agree with that. One of the problems with the HSA tests is that students who fail them are not currently provided with a copy of the test to see where
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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                      --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "The Sola's" <pmbsola@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > My definition of Education is that all children are able to learn,-
                      > all subjects- (see Jamie Escalante) that as long as we have
                      > teachers who believe this assumption we have children who may
                      > achieve at the highest levels. Tests ought to be used as
                      > diagnostic tools allowing the teacher to discover what a child
                      > does not understand and then teach the child.

                      I agree with that. One of the problems with the HSA tests is that
                      students who fail them are not currently provided with a copy of the
                      test to see where they need to improve. Another problem is that the
                      testing results are not released by objective. In other words, how
                      did Maryland's fifth graders do on fractions? We have no idea. All
                      we get is a scaled score. We don't even know how many questions the
                      scaled score equates to.

                      I think we ought to get the legislature to require Maryland to
                      release a lot more information about how its tests are scored,
                      release the results (both raw and scaled) by objective, and also
                      should provide kids needing remediation with a copy of the scored
                      test.

                      What do you think?

                      Tom Neumark
                    • The Sola's
                      This would be an excellent start; just imagine kids happy to take tests because they will not fail but find out what they need to learn. ... From:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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                        This would be an excellent start; just imagine kids happy to take tests
                        because they will not fail but find out what they need to learn.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "tneumark2000" <tneumark2000@...>
                        To: <howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 11:08 AM
                        Subject: [howardpubliced] HSA Testing Problems (was "Will This Year's
                        Candidates Have a Better Debate?")


                        > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "The Sola's" <pmbsola@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>
                        >> My definition of Education is that all children are able to learn,-
                        >> all subjects- (see Jamie Escalante) that as long as we have
                        >> teachers who believe this assumption we have children who may
                        >> achieve at the highest levels. Tests ought to be used as
                        >> diagnostic tools allowing the teacher to discover what a child
                        >> does not understand and then teach the child.
                        >
                        > I agree with that. One of the problems with the HSA tests is that
                        > students who fail them are not currently provided with a copy of the
                        > test to see where they need to improve. Another problem is that the
                        > testing results are not released by objective. In other words, how
                        > did Maryland's fifth graders do on fractions? We have no idea. All
                        > we get is a scaled score. We don't even know how many questions the
                        > scaled score equates to.
                        >
                        > I think we ought to get the legislature to require Maryland to
                        > release a lot more information about how its tests are scored,
                        > release the results (both raw and scaled) by objective, and also
                        > should provide kids needing remediation with a copy of the scored
                        > test.
                        >
                        > What do you think?
                        >
                        > Tom Neumark
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages
                        > posted here are placed in the public domain unless the poster states
                        > otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper articles) retain their
                        > original copyright status.
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • tneumark2000
                        ... Exactly! This is an issue that is more for the state legislature than for the local BOE candidates, but it would be interesting to know how many
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 11, 2006
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                          --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "The Sola's" <pmbsola@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > This would be an excellent start; just imagine kids happy to take
                          > tests because they will not fail but find out what they need to
                          > learn.

                          Exactly! This is an issue that is more for the state legislature than
                          for the local BOE candidates, but it would be interesting to know how
                          many candidates support doing this. Do you have any idea?

                          Tom Neumark
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