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Re: level playing field

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  • Allen Dyer
    ... From: joanpontius Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field and stadium lights / MD-PTA share ... hmmm....interesting
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 6, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "joanpontius" <joanpontius@...>
      Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level 'playing field' and stadium lights / MD-PTA share


      > wrote:
      > wouldn't it be easier just for the state to do that, via taxation??

      hmmm....interesting idea. the state takes over what has become
      a charity case--public education.

      allen

      >
      >
      > >> Wouldn't it make it easier of MD-PTA established some sort of
      > mechanism to
      > > FACILITATE affluent PTAs giving help less advantaged PTAs? If
      > some sort of
      > > mechanism (sister school sharing program) was in place, it would
      > be a lot
      > > easier for the affluent PTAs to donate in-kind items (supplies,
      > equipment,
      > > technology) to the schools that need some of these necessities.
      > If there could be
      > > some type of 'PTA share' that crossed county lines, that would
      > boost awareness
      > > of our affluent citizens and make it easier to direct needed items
      > to needy
      > > schools.
      > >
      > > DG
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages posted here are placed in
      the public domain unless the poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
      articles) retain their original copyright status.
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      >
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    • cynthia vaillancourt
      Joan hit it right on the head.... taxes (should) fund the school system. The way taxes are collected into a communal pot and then distributed evenly is the
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 6, 2004
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        Joan hit it right on the head.... taxes (should) fund the school system.

        The way taxes are collected into a communal pot and then distributed "evenly" is the one thing a county wide school system as large and complex as Howard County has going for it.

        Without getting distracted by pointing fungers or trying to make finding blame the primary focus.... we need to ask ourselves a few questions.

        1) Why are schools running out of paper before the end of the year? Have we miscalculated how much paper we need? or are we wasting what should have been a reasonable amount of paper?

        2) Do we even know how much paper we really need, and how much it costs?

        3) Have we asked for enough money to buy the right amount of paper at the going rate?

        4) If we have asked for the right amount, why didn't we get enough money from our funding source?

        5) Once we know how much paper we actually need (barring waste) and how much it is really going to cost, what do we have to do to make certain we have enough money to buy the right amount?

        (---obviously "paper" is not intended literally ----)

        BOE has made some good steps toward being able to more accurately estimate and account for actual costs --- the commitment to an up to date accounting/tracking system will be a big help.

        Knowing what your needs and expenses are is the first step in adequately funding for them.

        Where else is the system breaking down?

        Cindy V.





        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Allen Dyer
        Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:32 AM
        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "joanpontius" <joanpontius@...>
        Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level 'playing field' and stadium lights / MD-PTA share


        > wrote:
        > wouldn't it be easier just for the state to do that, via taxation??

        hmmm....interesting idea. the state takes over what has become
        a charity case--public education.

        allen

        >
        >
        > >> Wouldn't it make it easier of MD-PTA established some sort of
        > mechanism to
        > > FACILITATE affluent PTAs giving help less advantaged PTAs? If
        > some sort of
        > > mechanism (sister school sharing program) was in place, it would
        > be a lot
        > > easier for the affluent PTAs to donate in-kind items (supplies,
        > equipment,
        > > technology) to the schools that need some of these necessities.
        > If there could be
        > > some type of 'PTA share' that crossed county lines, that would
        > boost awareness
        > > of our affluent citizens and make it easier to direct needed items
        > to needy
        > > schools.
        > >
        > > DG
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages posted here are placed in
        the public domain unless the poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
        articles) retain their original copyright status.
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rgoodri973@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/6/2004 10:29:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... hmmm....interesting idea. the state takes over what has become a charity case--public
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 6, 2004
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          In a message dated 12/6/2004 10:29:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          aldyer@... writes:

          > wrote:
          > wouldn't it be easier just for the state to do that, via taxation??

          hmmm....interesting idea. the state takes over what has become
          a charity case--public education.

          allen


          -----
          I agree with both of you -- Allen & Joan. That's how it's SUPPOSED to work
          -- in theory.

          However, we have some diligent parents groups here in Howard County (not
          limited to Boosters and local PTAs), who are determined to 'get more' for their
          respective schools/students, and it results in creating more of the Haves vs.
          the Have Nots situations.

          I know it would be a band-aid, to redistribute some of the wealth (via
          private group "sharing" as in PTAs, Boosters), but it would also create awareness
          if the parents groups were ENCOURAGED (not forced) to share their wealth with
          a disadvantaged school.

          It's critical to create awareness, because I don't think too many affluent
          schools are aware of just how sweet they have it. So all I was saying is that
          it would be nice if the MD-PTA (for example) would develop a mechanism to
          facilitate "sharing" between affluent schools and disadvantaged schools -- since
          the fundraising isn't going to stop anytime soon. There's some serious
          fundraising going on in HoCo schools -- that's reality.

          DG


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • joan_pontius
          maybe each hoco school could pick a sister school, and students could direct their Target and Giant monies to that inner city school. Although, I suggested
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 7, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            maybe each hoco school could pick a sister school,
            and students could direct their Target and Giant monies
            to that inner city school.

            Although, I suggested this at work, when some well-off colleagues
            emailed the entire office, asking we donate via Giant to THEIR
            child's school, and they got sortof pissed off.

            oh well.


            --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, rgoodri973@a... wrote:
            >
            > In a message dated 12/6/2004 10:29:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            > aldyer@l... writes:
            >
            > > wrote:
            > > wouldn't it be easier just for the state to do that, via
            taxation??
            >
            > hmmm....interesting idea. the state takes over what has become
            > a charity case--public education.
            >
            > allen
            >
            >
            > -----
            > I agree with both of you -- Allen & Joan. That's how it's
            SUPPOSED to work
            > -- in theory.
            >
            > However, we have some diligent parents groups here in Howard County
            (not
            > limited to Boosters and local PTAs), who are determined to 'get
            more' for their
            > respective schools/students, and it results in creating more of the
            Haves vs.
            > the Have Nots situations.
            >
            > I know it would be a band-aid, to redistribute some of the wealth
            (via
            > private group "sharing" as in PTAs, Boosters), but it would also
            create awareness
            > if the parents groups were ENCOURAGED (not forced) to share their
            wealth with
            > a disadvantaged school.
            >
            > It's critical to create awareness, because I don't think too many
            affluent
            > schools are aware of just how sweet they have it. So all I was
            saying is that
            > it would be nice if the MD-PTA (for example) would develop a
            mechanism to
            > facilitate "sharing" between affluent schools and disadvantaged
            schools -- since
            > the fundraising isn't going to stop anytime soon. There's some
            serious
            > fundraising going on in HoCo schools -- that's reality.
            >
            > DG
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • cynthia vaillancourt
            I m not surprised by the reception your idea received. I think one of the reasons is because many of us feel like our donations to our own childrens schools
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 7, 2004
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              I'm not surprised by the reception your idea received.

              I think one of the reasons is because many of us feel like our donations to our own childrens schools are making the difference between whether our children get what they need or not --- not just whether they get fancy frills or extras. (general problem with adequate funding)

              Unfortunately, what was said earlier on this list is also too true.... that many of us have no idea how widely disparate the various schools are in terms of funding, materials, supplies, etc.

              We have it pretty good in my neighborhood ---- and I am frequently amazed at the well informed and well educated folks around here who assume that all the schools in HoCo have exactly the same things.

              A little enlightenment and some gentle persuasion are more likely to achieve the desired "sharing" result than some of the proposals to regulate, or "take" from one group to give to another.

              Any ideas how to do this without being heavy handed or accusatory?


              Cindy V.





              ----- Original Message -----
              From: joan_pontius
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:16 AM
              To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



              maybe each hoco school could pick a sister school,
              and students could direct their Target and Giant monies
              to that inner city school.

              Although, I suggested this at work, when some well-off colleagues
              emailed the entire office, asking we donate via Giant to THEIR
              child's school, and they got sortof pissed off.

              oh well.


              --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, rgoodri973@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 12/6/2004 10:29:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              > aldyer@l... writes:
              >
              > > wrote:
              > > wouldn't it be easier just for the state to do that, via
              taxation??
              >
              > hmmm....interesting idea. the state takes over what has become
              > a charity case--public education.
              >
              > allen
              >
              >
              > -----
              > I agree with both of you -- Allen & Joan. That's how it's
              SUPPOSED to work
              > -- in theory.
              >
              > However, we have some diligent parents groups here in Howard County
              (not
              > limited to Boosters and local PTAs), who are determined to 'get
              more' for their
              > respective schools/students, and it results in creating more of the
              Haves vs.
              > the Have Nots situations.
              >
              > I know it would be a band-aid, to redistribute some of the wealth
              (via
              > private group "sharing" as in PTAs, Boosters), but it would also
              create awareness
              > if the parents groups were ENCOURAGED (not forced) to share their
              wealth with
              > a disadvantaged school.
              >
              > It's critical to create awareness, because I don't think too many
              affluent
              > schools are aware of just how sweet they have it. So all I was
              saying is that
              > it would be nice if the MD-PTA (for example) would develop a
              mechanism to
              > facilitate "sharing" between affluent schools and disadvantaged
              schools -- since
              > the fundraising isn't going to stop anytime soon. There's some
              serious
              > fundraising going on in HoCo schools -- that's reality.
              >
              > DG
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • rgoodri973@aol.com
              The sharing idea -- at least for the PTA -- is based on the PTA s motto: EVERY child. ONE voice. It s a little hypocritical for the local/HoCo PTAs to NOT
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 7, 2004
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                The "sharing" idea -- at least for the PTA -- is based on the PTA's motto:
                EVERY child. ONE voice.

                It's a little hypocritical for the local/HoCo PTAs to NOT share when they're
                SO blessed with affluent parents (from the 2nd most affluent county IN THE
                NATION), who willingly contribute to fundraiser after fundraiser for their
                public schools.

                If the Haves vs. Have Nots disparity continues to widen, we'll need to
                change the motto to: 'Every wealthy child, one voice; Every disadvantaged child,
                no voice.'

                No need to be heavy-handed or accusatory, Cindy. Just old-fashioned,
                'friendly' competitive challenges across the affluent schools to try to earmark,
                say, 5% of all PTA fundraising to their respective sister/needy schools.
                Issuing a challenge is all it would take. That, and also some favorable
                publicity by the media.

                DG
                ---------------------


                In a message dated 12/7/2004 2:01:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                I'm not surprised by the reception your idea received.

                I think one of the reasons is because many of us feel like our donations to
                our own childrens schools are making the difference between whether our
                children get what they need or not --- not just whether they get fancy frills or
                extras. (general problem with adequate funding)

                Unfortunately, what was said earlier on this list is also too true.... that
                many of us have no idea how widely disparate the various schools are in terms
                of funding, materials, supplies, etc.

                We have it pretty good in my neighborhood ---- and I am frequently amazed at
                the well informed and well educated folks around here who assume that all
                the schools in HoCo have exactly the same things.

                A little enlightenment and some gentle persuasion are more likely to achieve
                the desired "sharing" result than some of the proposals to regulate, or
                "take" from one group to give to another.

                Any ideas how to do this without being heavy handed or accusatory?


                Cindy V.





                ----- Original Message -----
                From: joan_pontius
                Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:16 AM
                To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                maybe each hoco school could pick a sister school,
                and students could direct their Target and Giant monies
                to that inner city school.

                Although, I suggested this at work, when some well-off colleagues
                emailed the entire office, asking we donate via Giant to THEIR
                child's school, and they got sortof pissed off.

                oh well.






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • cynthia vaillancourt
                What a great idea, a challenge or competition. I agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy - and am dumbfounded by the apparent selfishness and intolerance of
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 7, 2004
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                  What a great idea, a "challenge" or competition.

                  I agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy - and am dumbfounded by the apparent selfishness and intolerance of so many.

                  However, I am only partially deluded, so have no expectations of being able to change any of these people.

                  However, for every real jerk out there, there are many more conscientious people who are just trying to muddle through and do what they can for their families. Most of these folks are simply unaware, but can be persuaded to help.

                  For this group, setting up "easy" ways to donate and fundraise ---- which do not tend to take away from their own families -- could be successful

                  That's not an endorsement of selfishness ---- just a nod to the reality of the situation.

                  CIndy V.







                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: rgoodri973@...
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:42 PM
                  To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                  The "sharing" idea -- at least for the PTA -- is based on the PTA's motto:
                  EVERY child. ONE voice.

                  It's a little hypocritical for the local/HoCo PTAs to NOT share when they're
                  SO blessed with affluent parents (from the 2nd most affluent county IN THE
                  NATION), who willingly contribute to fundraiser after fundraiser for their
                  public schools.

                  If the Haves vs. Have Nots disparity continues to widen, we'll need to
                  change the motto to: 'Every wealthy child, one voice; Every disadvantaged child,
                  no voice.'

                  No need to be heavy-handed or accusatory, Cindy. Just old-fashioned,
                  'friendly' competitive challenges across the affluent schools to try to earmark,
                  say, 5% of all PTA fundraising to their respective sister/needy schools.
                  Issuing a challenge is all it would take. That, and also some favorable
                  publicity by the media.

                  DG
                  ---------------------


                  In a message dated 12/7/2004 2:01:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                  I'm not surprised by the reception your idea received.

                  I think one of the reasons is because many of us feel like our donations to
                  our own childrens schools are making the difference between whether our
                  children get what they need or not --- not just whether they get fancy frills or
                  extras. (general problem with adequate funding)

                  Unfortunately, what was said earlier on this list is also too true.... that
                  many of us have no idea how widely disparate the various schools are in terms
                  of funding, materials, supplies, etc.

                  We have it pretty good in my neighborhood ---- and I am frequently amazed at
                  the well informed and well educated folks around here who assume that all
                  the schools in HoCo have exactly the same things.

                  A little enlightenment and some gentle persuasion are more likely to achieve
                  the desired "sharing" result than some of the proposals to regulate, or
                  "take" from one group to give to another.

                  Any ideas how to do this without being heavy handed or accusatory?


                  Cindy V.





                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: joan_pontius
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:16 AM
                  To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                  maybe each hoco school could pick a sister school,
                  and students could direct their Target and Giant monies
                  to that inner city school.

                  Although, I suggested this at work, when some well-off colleagues
                  emailed the entire office, asking we donate via Giant to THEIR
                  child's school, and they got sortof pissed off.

                  oh well.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bobrosebrough21045
                  You people just don t get it. When TRES opened, there was a surprise addition of somewhere between 60 and 100 kids who were prior private school enrollees.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 7, 2004
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                    You people just don't get it. When TRES opened, there was a
                    surprise addition of somewhere between 60 and 100 kids who were
                    prior private school enrollees. Presto, somebody sets up a 501C(3)
                    account called Friends of TRES and that money formerly going to the
                    private school can now be a charitable write off plus creating a
                    quasi private school. Think I am BSing? Guess again, there are
                    reports of a certain PTA in Cleveland Park that raised a 100K a year
                    and hired supplemental teachers out of that fund. Would DC touch
                    these folks? Why should they run them off to MoCo with their big
                    bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about charity or
                    sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to run them
                    back to the private schools?

                    --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, rgoodri973@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > The "sharing" idea -- at least for the PTA -- is based on the
                    PTA's motto:
                    > EVERY child. ONE voice.
                    >
                    > It's a little hypocritical for the local/HoCo PTAs to NOT share
                    when they're
                    > SO blessed with affluent parents (from the 2nd most affluent
                    county IN THE
                    > NATION), who willingly contribute to fundraiser after fundraiser
                    for their
                    > public schools.
                    >
                    > If the Haves vs. Have Nots disparity continues to widen, we'll
                    need to
                    > change the motto to: 'Every wealthy child, one voice; Every
                    disadvantaged child,
                    > no voice.'
                    >
                    > No need to be heavy-handed or accusatory, Cindy. Just old-
                    fashioned,
                    > 'friendly' competitive challenges across the affluent schools to
                    try to earmark,
                    > say, 5% of all PTA fundraising to their respective sister/needy
                    schools.
                    > Issuing a challenge is all it would take. That, and also some
                    favorable
                    > publicity by the media.
                    >
                    > DG
                    > ---------------------
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/7/2004 2:01:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    > CynthiaVaillancourt@m... writes:
                    >
                    > I'm not surprised by the reception your idea received.
                    >
                    > I think one of the reasons is because many of us feel like our
                    donations to
                    > our own childrens schools are making the difference between
                    whether our
                    > children get what they need or not --- not just whether they get
                    fancy frills or
                    > extras. (general problem with adequate funding)
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, what was said earlier on this list is also too
                    true.... that
                    > many of us have no idea how widely disparate the various schools
                    are in terms
                    > of funding, materials, supplies, etc.
                    >
                    > We have it pretty good in my neighborhood ---- and I am
                    frequently amazed at
                    > the well informed and well educated folks around here who assume
                    that all
                    > the schools in HoCo have exactly the same things.
                    >
                    > A little enlightenment and some gentle persuasion are more likely
                    to achieve
                    > the desired "sharing" result than some of the proposals to
                    regulate, or
                    > "take" from one group to give to another.
                    >
                    > Any ideas how to do this without being heavy handed or accusatory?
                    >
                    >
                    > Cindy V.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: joan_pontius
                    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:16 AM
                    > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > maybe each hoco school could pick a sister school,
                    > and students could direct their Target and Giant monies
                    > to that inner city school.
                    >
                    > Although, I suggested this at work, when some well-off
                    colleagues
                    > emailed the entire office, asking we donate via Giant to THEIR
                    > child's school, and they got sortof pissed off.
                    >
                    > oh well.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • joan_pontius
                    ... if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money they are giving to their own children, then yes.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
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                      --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
                      > bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about charity or
                      > sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to run them
                      > back to the private schools?


                      if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money
                      they are giving to their own children, then yes.
                    • cynthia vaillancourt
                      There are a handful of people who have loads of money and think little of dropping a big bunch on a public school fundraiser for their own child s school.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There are a handful of people who have loads of money and think little of dropping a big bunch on a public school fundraiser for their own child's school. Let's take 'em out back and beat 'em up.

                        But most of us, even those in "affluent areas", have competing demands on our time and money, and have to decide where to spend our money. Even though many are arguably "better off" than their counterparts in other "school assignment areas", it can still be a struggle to make ends meet ---- and the voluntary contributions, above and beyond the already high tax bills, are not always easy.

                        I don't really understand why it is ok to denigrate the contributions of these well meaning parents and families.

                        The same kind of blanket assumptions and criticisms based on these assumptions that are heaped on the hard working parents in the more affluent areas are just as unfair as any of the offensive and largely unfounded assumptions applied to the less affluent communities which raise such righteous indignation.

                        Instead of focusing on the root of the problem, the failure of the local government to adequately budget for and fund the public schools, we waste time and energy with jealousy, prejudice and ugly squabbling.


                        Cindy V.



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: joan_pontius
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:50 AM
                        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                        --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
                        > bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about charity or
                        > sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to run them
                        > back to the private schools?


                        if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money
                        they are giving to their own children, then yes.








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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • joan_pontius
                        wtf. who is denigrating anyone????? I was just saying that their monies shouldn t be tax write offs. They want to buy teachers for their school, that s fine
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          wtf.
                          who is denigrating anyone?????
                          I was just saying that their monies shouldn't be tax write offs.
                          They want to buy teachers for their school, that's fine with me.
                          But it shouldn't be the govts role to pay them to do so.





                          --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                          <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                          > There are a handful of people who have loads of money and think
                          little of dropping a big bunch on a public school fundraiser for
                          their own child's school. Let's take 'em out back and beat 'em up.
                          >
                          > But most of us, even those in "affluent areas", have competing
                          demands on our time and money, and have to decide where to spend our
                          money. Even though many are arguably "better off" than their
                          counterparts in other "school assignment areas", it can still be a
                          struggle to make ends meet ---- and the voluntary contributions,
                          above and beyond the already high tax bills, are not always easy.
                          >
                          > I don't really understand why it is ok to denigrate the
                          contributions of these well meaning parents and families.
                          >
                          > The same kind of blanket assumptions and criticisms based on these
                          assumptions that are heaped on the hard working parents in the more
                          affluent areas are just as unfair as any of the offensive and largely
                          unfounded assumptions applied to the less affluent communities which
                          raise such righteous indignation.
                          >
                          > Instead of focusing on the root of the problem, the failure of the
                          local government to adequately budget for and fund the public
                          schools, we waste time and energy with jealousy, prejudice and ugly
                          squabbling.
                          >
                          >
                          > Cindy V.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: joan_pontius
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:50 AM
                          > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
                          > > bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about charity
                          or
                          > > sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to run
                          them
                          > > back to the private schools?
                          >
                          >
                          > if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money
                          > they are giving to their own children, then yes.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          ~-->
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                          > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original
                          messages posted here are placed in the public domain unless the
                          poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
                          articles) retain their original copyright status.
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • rgoodri973@aol.com
                          In a message dated 12/8/2004 10:28:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, joan_pontius@yahoo.com writes: I was just saying that their monies shouldn t be tax write
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 12/8/2004 10:28:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                            joan_pontius@... writes:

                            I was just saying that their monies shouldn't be tax write offs.
                            They want to buy teachers for their school, that's fine with me.
                            But it shouldn't be the govts role to pay them to do so.




                            ------
                            Amen, Joan!


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bobrosebrough21045
                            Now, don t get all whiney. The isuue is how a group of parents can exploit tax laws [creation of 501C(3)] to create semi private schools. I browsed my CFC
                            Message 13 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Now, don't get all whiney. The isuue is how a group of parents can
                              exploit tax laws [creation of 501C(3)] to create semi private
                              schools. I browsed my CFC booklet and found several "Friends of Our
                              Lady of Charles Bronson School" listed. I have no problem how much
                              the folks in affluent neighborhoods give to their PTSA or Booster
                              groups - wouldn;t have it any other way. It's the bit about 501C
                              (3)'s that gets questionable. If the account was a general one such
                              as the PTA of HoCo, fine and dandy.

                              --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                              <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                              > There are a handful of people who have loads of money and think
                              little of dropping a big bunch on a public school fundraiser for
                              their own child's school. Let's take 'em out back and beat 'em up.
                              >
                              > But most of us, even those in "affluent areas", have competing
                              demands on our time and money, and have to decide where to spend our
                              money. Even though many are arguably "better off" than their
                              counterparts in other "school assignment areas", it can still be a
                              struggle to make ends meet ---- and the voluntary contributions,
                              above and beyond the already high tax bills, are not always easy.
                              >
                              > I don't really understand why it is ok to denigrate the
                              contributions of these well meaning parents and families.
                              >
                              > The same kind of blanket assumptions and criticisms based on these
                              assumptions that are heaped on the hard working parents in the more
                              affluent areas are just as unfair as any of the offensive and largely
                              unfounded assumptions applied to the less affluent communities which
                              raise such righteous indignation.
                              >
                              > Instead of focusing on the root of the problem, the failure of the
                              local government to adequately budget for and fund the public
                              schools, we waste time and energy with jealousy, prejudice and ugly
                              squabbling.
                              >
                              >
                              > Cindy V.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: joan_pontius
                              > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:50 AM
                              > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
                              > > bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about charity
                              or
                              > > sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to run
                              them
                              > > back to the private schools?
                              >
                              >
                              > if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money
                              > they are giving to their own children, then yes.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                              ~-->
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                              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ~->
                              >
                              > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original
                              messages posted here are placed in the public domain unless the
                              poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
                              articles) retain their original copyright status.
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • cynthia vaillancourt
                              Getting cute with the tax code is not one of my areas of expertise. I m sure some people are just exploiting the heck out of it. However, the amounts people
                              Message 14 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Getting cute with the tax code is not one of my areas of expertise. I'm sure some people are just exploiting the heck out of it.

                                However, the amounts people are able to deduct from their tax returns doesn't change their real estate/property tax bill - so it doesn't impact the amount of money our local government collects - which is where the lion's share of school funding comes from.

                                Also, even if someone is saving some money in taxes which offsets the "cost" of their contributions ---- the amount of the contribution is what goes to the school --- not the fractional amount of tax savings.

                                It looks to me like the folks who are making contributions of any size to the schools are doing it in addition to paying their share in the form of local taxes.

                                If we want to make these donations non-deductible ---- maybe the donors would still give the same amount. I suspect they give more because of the deductions. Not just that, but the additional tax these people would be paying had they not made the deductible donation would not go directly to the schools in any event --- any indirect benefit would be diluted to insignificance.

                                This may be one of the "be careful what you wish for" items ---- I think the net result to the schools would be a decrease in direct funding. So the parent who donates $1000 gets a write off, saves a couple of hundred dollars in taxes --- the school got the whole $1000.... would you really rather have whatever part of that $200 which might eventually make it to the local school system instead?

                                Cindy V.







                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: bobrosebrough21045
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:44 AM
                                To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                                Now, don't get all whiney. The isuue is how a group of parents can
                                exploit tax laws [creation of 501C(3)] to create semi private
                                schools. I browsed my CFC booklet and found several "Friends of Our
                                Lady of Charles Bronson School" listed. I have no problem how much
                                the folks in affluent neighborhoods give to their PTSA or Booster
                                groups - wouldn;t have it any other way. It's the bit about 501C
                                (3)'s that gets questionable. If the account was a general one such
                                as the PTA of HoCo, fine and dandy.

                                --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                > There are a handful of people who have loads of money and think
                                little of dropping a big bunch on a public school fundraiser for
                                their own child's school. Let's take 'em out back and beat 'em up.
                                >
                                > But most of us, even those in "affluent areas", have competing
                                demands on our time and money, and have to decide where to spend our
                                money. Even though many are arguably "better off" than their
                                counterparts in other "school assignment areas", it can still be a
                                struggle to make ends meet ---- and the voluntary contributions,
                                above and beyond the already high tax bills, are not always easy.
                                >
                                > I don't really understand why it is ok to denigrate the
                                contributions of these well meaning parents and families.
                                >
                                > The same kind of blanket assumptions and criticisms based on these
                                assumptions that are heaped on the hard working parents in the more
                                affluent areas are just as unfair as any of the offensive and largely
                                unfounded assumptions applied to the less affluent communities which
                                raise such righteous indignation.
                                >
                                > Instead of focusing on the root of the problem, the failure of the
                                local government to adequately budget for and fund the public
                                schools, we waste time and energy with jealousy, prejudice and ugly
                                squabbling.
                                >
                                >
                                > Cindy V.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: joan_pontius
                                > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:50 AM
                                > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
                                > > bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about charity
                                or
                                > > sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to run
                                them
                                > > back to the private schools?
                                >
                                >
                                > if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money
                                > they are giving to their own children, then yes.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                                ~-->
                                > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
                                > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
                                > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/jyXolB/TM
                                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                >
                                > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original
                                messages posted here are placed in the public domain unless the
                                poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
                                articles) retain their original copyright status.
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                                Yahoo! Groups Links





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • bobrosebrough21045
                                No, no, no - You are bolixing federal/state/local (piggy back) with real property taxes - apples and oranges. The beauty of the 501C(3) is the amount that can
                                Message 15 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  No, no, no -
                                  You are bolixing federal/state/local (piggy back) with real property
                                  taxes - apples and oranges. The beauty of the 501C(3) is the amount
                                  that can be deducted (provided that you don't bump up against the
                                  AMT). Assuming your example - the thousand as a donation goes
                                  direct to Lotsa Bux ES while the two hundred goes to the system per
                                  se (assuming this is the total tax load for feds/state and local).
                                  In any case the citizenry as a collective body must subsidize/make
                                  up the difference in revenue lost to the donation to Lotsa Bux ES.
                                  Get the drift - all of us are subsidizing the donation.

                                  --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                  <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                  > Getting cute with the tax code is not one of my areas of
                                  expertise. I'm sure some people are just exploiting the heck out of
                                  it.
                                  >
                                  > However, the amounts people are able to deduct from their tax
                                  returns doesn't change their real estate/property tax bill - so it
                                  doesn't impact the amount of money our local government collects -
                                  which is where the lion's share of school funding comes from.
                                  >
                                  > Also, even if someone is saving some money in taxes which offsets
                                  the "cost" of their contributions ---- the amount of the
                                  contribution is what goes to the school --- not the fractional
                                  amount of tax savings.
                                  >
                                  > It looks to me like the folks who are making contributions of any
                                  size to the schools are doing it in addition to paying their share
                                  in the form of local taxes.
                                  >
                                  > If we want to make these donations non-deductible ---- maybe the
                                  donors would still give the same amount. I suspect they give more
                                  because of the deductions. Not just that, but the additional tax
                                  these people would be paying had they not made the deductible
                                  donation would not go directly to the schools in any event --- any
                                  indirect benefit would be diluted to insignificance.
                                  >
                                  > This may be one of the "be careful what you wish for" items ---- I
                                  think the net result to the schools would be a decrease in direct
                                  funding. So the parent who donates $1000 gets a write off, saves a
                                  couple of hundred dollars in taxes --- the school got the whole
                                  $1000.... would you really rather have whatever part of that $200
                                  which might eventually make it to the local school system instead?
                                  >
                                  > Cindy V.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: bobrosebrough21045
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:44 AM
                                  > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Now, don't get all whiney. The isuue is how a group of parents
                                  can
                                  > exploit tax laws [creation of 501C(3)] to create semi private
                                  > schools. I browsed my CFC booklet and found several "Friends of
                                  Our
                                  > Lady of Charles Bronson School" listed. I have no problem how
                                  much
                                  > the folks in affluent neighborhoods give to their PTSA or Booster
                                  > groups - wouldn;t have it any other way. It's the bit about 501C
                                  > (3)'s that gets questionable. If the account was a general one
                                  such
                                  > as the PTA of HoCo, fine and dandy.
                                  >
                                  > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                  > <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                  > > There are a handful of people who have loads of money and think
                                  > little of dropping a big bunch on a public school fundraiser for
                                  > their own child's school. Let's take 'em out back and beat 'em up.
                                  > >
                                  > > But most of us, even those in "affluent areas", have competing
                                  > demands on our time and money, and have to decide where to spend
                                  our
                                  > money. Even though many are arguably "better off" than their
                                  > counterparts in other "school assignment areas", it can still be
                                  a
                                  > struggle to make ends meet ---- and the voluntary contributions,
                                  > above and beyond the already high tax bills, are not always easy.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't really understand why it is ok to denigrate the
                                  > contributions of these well meaning parents and families.
                                  > >
                                  > > The same kind of blanket assumptions and criticisms based on
                                  these
                                  > assumptions that are heaped on the hard working parents in the
                                  more
                                  > affluent areas are just as unfair as any of the offensive and
                                  largely
                                  > unfounded assumptions applied to the less affluent communities
                                  which
                                  > raise such righteous indignation.
                                  > >
                                  > > Instead of focusing on the root of the problem, the failure of
                                  the
                                  > local government to adequately budget for and fund the public
                                  > schools, we waste time and energy with jealousy, prejudice and
                                  ugly
                                  > squabbling.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Cindy V.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: joan_pontius
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:50 AM
                                  > > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bobrosebrough21045"
                                  > > > bucks tax bills? Moral of the story - this isn't about
                                  charity
                                  > or
                                  > > > sharing the wealth - more about privilege. Do you want to
                                  run
                                  > them
                                  > > > back to the private schools?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > if it meant we could then collect the tax on the money
                                  > > they are giving to their own children, then yes.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------
                                  --
                                  > ~-->
                                  > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
                                  > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
                                  > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/jyXolB/TM
                                  > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ---
                                  > ~->
                                  > >
                                  > > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original
                                  > messages posted here are placed in the public domain unless the
                                  > poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
                                  > articles) retain their original copyright status.
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                                  ~-->
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                                  >
                                  > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original
                                  messages posted here are placed in the public domain unless the
                                  poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
                                  articles) retain their original copyright status.
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • rgoodri973@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 12/8/2004 8:20:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobrosebrough21045@yahoo.com writes: No, no, no - You are bolixing federal/state/local (piggy
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In a message dated 12/8/2004 8:20:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                    bobrosebrough21045@... writes:

                                    No, no, no -
                                    You are bolixing federal/state/local (piggy back) with real property
                                    taxes - apples and oranges. The beauty of the 501C(3) is the amount
                                    that can be deducted (provided that you don't bump up against the
                                    AMT). Assuming your example - the thousand as a donation goes
                                    direct to Lotsa Bux ES while the two hundred goes to the system per
                                    se (assuming this is the total tax load for feds/state and local).
                                    In any case the citizenry as a collective body must subsidize/make
                                    up the difference in revenue lost to the donation to Lotsa Bux ES.
                                    Get the drift - all of us are subsidizing the donation.




                                    Exactly.
                                    That's the problem with Republicans ... tax shelters where the commoners
                                    (the many) subsidize the wealthy (the few). Yet the donors consider their
                                    actions as altruistic, when in reality Lotsa Bux ES doesn't REALLY need any
                                    subsidies. It's inefficient to subsidize the wrong entities, as it really does end
                                    up hurting those least able to help themselves.



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Roger Lerner
                                    Not the point at all, rgoodri! The example Bob cited is in Cleveland Park DC; those folks aren t Republicans ! Want to talk about perverse incentives in tax
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Dec 8, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Not the point at all, rgoodri! The example Bob cited is in Cleveland Park
                                      DC; those folks aren't Republicans !



                                      Want to talk about perverse incentives in tax policy? Welcome to the Cato
                                      Institute and the flat tax, my friend.



                                      And another thing, aren't you a little old to believe in fairy tales?
                                      Wealthy people and corporate interests get tax breaks whether democrats or
                                      republicans rule the roost. They buy them from the legislative branch. The
                                      fight is always over how the burden will be allocated among the segments of
                                      the middle class. You can play semantic games over who is wealthy and who
                                      is middle class, and rally round a party banner, but by doing so you are
                                      playing the dupe to the men and women who tell you: "pay no attention to
                                      that lobbyist behind that Congressional screen."



                                      Roger Lerner





                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: rgoodri973@... [mailto:rgoodri973@...]
                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:45 PM
                                      To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field




                                      In a message dated 12/8/2004 8:20:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                      bobrosebrough21045@... writes:

                                      No, no, no -
                                      You are bolixing federal/state/local (piggy back) with real property
                                      taxes - apples and oranges. The beauty of the 501C(3) is the amount
                                      that can be deducted (provided that you don't bump up against the
                                      AMT). Assuming your example - the thousand as a donation goes
                                      direct to Lotsa Bux ES while the two hundred goes to the system per
                                      se (assuming this is the total tax load for feds/state and local).
                                      In any case the citizenry as a collective body must subsidize/make
                                      up the difference in revenue lost to the donation to Lotsa Bux ES.
                                      Get the drift - all of us are subsidizing the donation.




                                      Exactly.
                                      That's the problem with Republicans ... tax shelters where the commoners
                                      (the many) subsidize the wealthy (the few). Yet the donors consider their
                                      actions as altruistic, when in reality Lotsa Bux ES doesn't REALLY need any

                                      subsidies. It's inefficient to subsidize the wrong entities, as it really
                                      does end
                                      up hurting those least able to help themselves.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages
                                      posted here are placed in the public domain unless the poster states
                                      otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper articles) retain their
                                      original copyright status.






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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • cynthia vaillancourt
                                      I do see your point, but even granting all the assumptions -- the $200 in lost revenue would have been used to fund anything and everything, only pennies - if
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Dec 9, 2004
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                                        I do see your point, but even granting all the assumptions -- the $200 in lost revenue would have been used to fund anything and everything, only pennies - if that - would have made it back to the local community in any form.

                                        So while I see your point, it seems to me the proprtions are so dramatically in favor of any donation that, for me --- I'd be willing to pay an extra fraction of a penny so that any HoCo public school could get an extra thousand dollars.

                                        I wouldn't argue that there are mind numbing inequalities in the tax code - many of which include all kinds of self-important or deluded slight of hand that are tend to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

                                        I guess the question becomes how does all this really effect HoCo and the HCPSS, and is there something that can reasonably be done to change the giving patterns of local parents?

                                        Taken in context and applied to real life here and not just the theoretical concepts, it seems to me that the ripple effect the tax deductibility of a voluntary donation to an HCPSS school might have, though a concept I had not previously given much thought to, probably should not be given significant weight in any policy decisions about donations to our local schools.

                                        The bigger question is why should the schools be dependent on voluntary/charitable giving to provide what our community considers "necessities"?

                                        The folks who would like to focus their energy on taking control of voluntary donations in order to make sure these funds are distributed evenly might want to look at the many other school systems which have already tried various ways to accomplish this. I have yet to fiind one where the net result was an improvement in the lot of the schools with less effective fundraisers --- in all the cases I have found so far, the efforts to control these efforts have resulted in the loss of the contributions.

                                        So, while it is true that a school system, or a pta, can decide not to allow donations of certain kinds, or to certain schools --- what they are really deciding is not to accept donations. I suppose there is a certain "fairness" to that result.

                                        Interestingly, the bigger question --- making certain the school system is adequately funded to begin with --- gets more attention, but not necessarily more money.

                                        CV









                                        From: rgoodri973@...
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:46 PM
                                        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                                        In a message dated 12/8/2004 8:20:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                        bobrosebrough21045@... writes:

                                        No, no, no -
                                        You are bolixing federal/state/local (piggy back) with real property
                                        taxes - apples and oranges. The beauty of the 501C(3) is the amount
                                        that can be deducted (provided that you don't bump up against the
                                        AMT). Assuming your example - the thousand as a donation goes
                                        direct to Lotsa Bux ES while the two hundred goes to the system per
                                        se (assuming this is the total tax load for feds/state and local).
                                        In any case the citizenry as a collective body must subsidize/make
                                        up the difference in revenue lost to the donation to Lotsa Bux ES.
                                        Get the drift - all of us are subsidizing the donation.




                                        Exactly.
                                        That's the problem with Republicans ... tax shelters where the commoners
                                        (the many) subsidize the wealthy (the few). Yet the donors consider their
                                        actions as altruistic, when in reality Lotsa Bux ES doesn't REALLY need any
                                        subsidies. It's inefficient to subsidize the wrong entities, as it really does end
                                        up hurting those least able to help themselves.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • joan_pontius
                                        ??? well of course YOU would, you are the one who would benefit from it. ?? ... $200 in lost revenue would have been used to fund anything and everything, only
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Dec 10, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          ???
                                          well of course YOU would, you are the one who would
                                          benefit from it.

                                          ??


                                          --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                          <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                          > I do see your point, but even granting all the assumptions -- the
                                          $200 in lost revenue would have been used to fund anything and
                                          everything, only pennies - if that - would have made it back to the
                                          local community in any form.
                                          >
                                          > So while I see your point, it seems to me the proprtions are so
                                          dramatically in favor of any donation that, for me --- I'd be willing
                                          to pay an extra fraction of a penny so that any HoCo public school
                                          could get an extra thousand dollars.
                                          >
                                        • cynthia vaillancourt
                                          Even though my kids don t go to Lotsa Bux ES, I would agree that I benefit from the donations made to other schools, even if the parents make wise use of the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Dec 10, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Even though my kids don't go to Lotsa Bux ES, I would agree that "I" benefit from the donations made to other schools, even if the parents make wise use of the available tax benefits.

                                            The teachers who receive relief from the burden of providing the little extras ---- which they often pay for out of their own pockets, also benefit....

                                            The other students, even those who are not the progeny of Lotsa Bux, in the school benefit.... (try to remeber that TRES does have students who qualify for aid, and lots of middle class and struggling families as well)

                                            and the cause of public education benefits ---- when people take an interest in the public school system.


                                            Regardless of any other aspect of any HoCo family's financial situation, don't we all pay what the local government has determined is our "share" via the tax bills which are determined by the local government ----which provide the lion's share of the funding for the public schools?

                                            If the schools are not adequately funded, is it the fault of the people paying the bills they have recieved?

                                            What needs to be done so that the reality matches the rhetoric about how much we value public education?

                                            Realistic budgets which are clear and incorporate the many items our community has agreed are neccesary and valuable would be a good start.... then making whatever changes are necessary to the revenue stream to provide for that budget would be the next step (increase revenues or decrease other expenses).

                                            Where is this process breaking down?

                                            Cindy V.




                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: joan_pontius
                                            Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:17 AM
                                            To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                                            ???
                                            well of course YOU would, you are the one who would
                                            benefit from it.

                                            ??


                                            --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                            <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                            > I do see your point, but even granting all the assumptions -- the
                                            $200 in lost revenue would have been used to fund anything and
                                            everything, only pennies - if that - would have made it back to the
                                            local community in any form.
                                            >
                                            > So while I see your point, it seems to me the proprtions are so
                                            dramatically in favor of any donation that, for me --- I'd be willing
                                            to pay an extra fraction of a penny so that any HoCo public school
                                            could get an extra thousand dollars.
                                            >





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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • joan_pontius
                                            i don t see why you keep trying to say someone is at fault, or doing something wrong. no one is blaming anyone for taking advantage of tax breaks for the rich,
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Dec 10, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              i don't see why you keep trying to say someone
                                              is at fault, or doing something wrong.
                                              no one is blaming anyone for taking advantage of tax
                                              breaks for the rich, its that the tax breaks are
                                              there in the first place that is wrong.




                                              --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                              <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                              > Even though my kids don't go to Lotsa Bux ES, I would agree
                                              that "I" benefit from the donations made to other schools, even if
                                              the parents make wise use of the available tax benefits.
                                              >
                                              > The teachers who receive relief from the burden of providing the
                                              little extras ---- which they often pay for out of their own pockets,
                                              also benefit....
                                              >
                                              > The other students, even those who are not the progeny of Lotsa
                                              Bux, in the school benefit.... (try to remeber that TRES does have
                                              students who qualify for aid, and lots of middle class and struggling
                                              families as well)
                                              >
                                              > and the cause of public education benefits ---- when people take an
                                              interest in the public school system.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Regardless of any other aspect of any HoCo family's financial
                                              situation, don't we all pay what the local government has determined
                                              is our "share" via the tax bills which are determined by the local
                                              government ----which provide the lion's share of the funding for the
                                              public schools?
                                              >
                                              > If the schools are not adequately funded, is it the fault of the
                                              people paying the bills they have recieved?
                                              >
                                            • bsflag2005
                                              There is something terribly wrong when the schools are not adequately funded, or there are wide disparities in the materials, supplies and facilities offered
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Dec 10, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                There is something terribly wrong when the schools are not adequately
                                                funded, or there are wide disparities in the materials, supplies and
                                                facilities offered to different areas within the same school system.

                                                -In HoCo local parent groups have tried to fill in the gaps which has
                                                apparently widened the gap further.

                                                Instead of focusing on the individual voluntary contributions of the
                                                citizens ---- it seems to me that it would be more effective in the
                                                long term to focus on the root of the problem.

                                                The other conversations about inequities in the federal tax code,
                                                though fascinating, are a distraction.

                                                We have a problem in this community with the adequacy of facilities,
                                                materials and supplies.

                                                The folks charged with making the decisions about how much money is
                                                needed, where it will come from, and how to collect it need support
                                                (or pressure) from this comunity to make whatever changes are
                                                necessary to fix the current problems with adequacy and ineguity
                                                within the HCPSS.

                                                CV





                                                -- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "joan_pontius"
                                                <joan_pontius@y...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > i don't see why you keep trying to say someone
                                                > is at fault, or doing something wrong.
                                                > no one is blaming anyone for taking advantage of tax
                                                > breaks for the rich, its that the tax breaks are
                                                > there in the first place that is wrong.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "cynthia vaillancourt"
                                                > <CynthiaVaillancourt@m...> wrote:
                                                > > Even though my kids don't go to Lotsa Bux ES, I would agree
                                                > that "I" benefit from the donations made to other schools, even if
                                                > the parents make wise use of the available tax benefits.
                                                > >
                                                > > The teachers who receive relief from the burden of providing the
                                                > little extras ---- which they often pay for out of their own
                                                pockets,
                                                > also benefit....
                                                > >
                                                > > The other students, even those who are not the progeny of Lotsa
                                                > Bux, in the school benefit.... (try to remeber that TRES does have
                                                > students who qualify for aid, and lots of middle class and
                                                struggling
                                                > families as well)
                                                > >
                                                > > and the cause of public education benefits ---- when people take
                                                an
                                                > interest in the public school system.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Regardless of any other aspect of any HoCo family's financial
                                                > situation, don't we all pay what the local government has
                                                determined
                                                > is our "share" via the tax bills which are determined by the local
                                                > government ----which provide the lion's share of the funding for
                                                the
                                                > public schools?
                                                > >
                                                > > If the schools are not adequately funded, is it the fault of the
                                                > people paying the bills they have recieved?
                                                > >
                                              • joan_pontius
                                                i m wondering why you qualify your statement with within the same school system . ?? cheers joan ... adequately ... and
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Dec 10, 2004
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  i'm wondering why you qualify your statement with
                                                  "within the same school system".

                                                  ??
                                                  cheers

                                                  joan


                                                  --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bsflag2005" <bsflag2005@y...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > There is something terribly wrong when the schools are not
                                                  adequately
                                                  > funded, or there are wide disparities in the materials, supplies
                                                  and
                                                  > facilities offered to different areas within the same school system.
                                                  >
                                                • cynthia vaillancourt
                                                  I ll tell you.... because as much as I would like to see the whole world sing in harmony - I can t afford that much coke --- so I have to compromise and settle
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Dec 10, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I'll tell you.... because as much as I would like to see the whole world sing in harmony - I can't afford that much coke --- so I have to compromise and settle for the small part of the world where I might actually be able to make a difference.

                                                    The problem of inequity in the public school system is nationwide, even worldwide. I wish anyone trying to work on the problems on that scale all the best.

                                                    There seems to be a paralysis that sets in when people see a specific problem and try to find a solution, then get blown away by the enormity of the larger issues.

                                                    This is happening with my middle school athletics project. Most people are very supportive of the idea of providing additional opportunitites for the middle schoolers....

                                                    but then "why stop at athletics...." "why stop at middle school...."

                                                    "...it's not fair to the kids who aren't interested in sports...." "it's not fair to provide an activity that won't appeal to everyone unless you provide other activities as well....."

                                                    The committee mentality spirals until the notion of trying to make one piece better becomes trite, unfair to someone, or a competition with some other small piece.

                                                    It is exhausting just trying to keep a project manageable enough to have any shot at success.



                                                    Cindy V.






                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: joan_pontius
                                                    Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:01 AM
                                                    To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: level playing field



                                                    i'm wondering why you qualify your statement with
                                                    "within the same school system".

                                                    ??
                                                    cheers

                                                    joan


                                                    --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, "bsflag2005" <bsflag2005@y...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > There is something terribly wrong when the schools are not
                                                    adequately
                                                    > funded, or there are wide disparities in the materials, supplies
                                                    and
                                                    > facilities offered to different areas within the same school system.
                                                    >





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