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Re: [howardpubliced] Re: school=church??

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  • cynthia vaillancourt
    Actually, I thought it was pretty clear that I was looking for the kind of detailed account of how this works - and not even a suggestion of objecting to a
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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      Actually, I thought it was pretty clear that I was looking for the kind of detailed account of how this works - and not even a suggestion of objecting to a religious based organization renting space from the schools - that you were kind enough to provide. ---- in fact, I specifically said I had no problem with any organization who pays a fair and reasonable amount using the facilities.

      And as you have pointed out the "my child's desk" - I would point out that I put the item in quoatation marks to highlight the ambiguity of the description, as the argument that "my child" or anyone else's child is using school property and does not actually own it.

      As far as questioning anyone's integrity - again, I specifically said that I wasn't suggesting there had been any misdeeds by anyone - and was questioning how the process works - ie, what kinds of assurances are requested by HCPSS or made by the leasing group to assure good behavior.

      It is purely a question of process - and the only reason there is a religious aspect in this case is because you are the only one so far who has offered specific information about your own group and your group's experience. If a scout leader happened to chime in, I would ask the same question.

      In fact, it is my understanding that there are different arrangements for scout troops (also religious based organizations) and others - the differences being where my questions begin.

      However, you are correct in your underlying complaint - there are many people in the community who do object to religious organizations using or benefitting in any way from school owned or operated facilities or services. The fact that this did not apply here does not make it a non-issue.

      This entire community needs to make a serious effort to look at the actual questions and the actual issues - and try not to succumb to the default assumptions when certain "hot button" issues are brought up.

      In this case - I am gathering supporting information for the position that it doesn't matter what the "persuasion" of the renting group is - the only concern should be that they are suitably vetted, and appropriately charged - and actually pay. In your haste to see criticism where there was none you actually shot a strong supporter.

      Oh well, no good deed goes unpunished.

      cindy vaillancourt







      ----- Original Message -----
      From: rgoodri973@...
      Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:57 PM
      To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] Re: school=church??



      In a message dated 10/6/2004 5:16:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

      sitting at "my child's" desk


      -----
      PS - Your child doesn't own a desk. The furniture is public property.
      Taxpayers own it. If you're going to exclude (or suggest HCPSS exclude) CLASSROOM
      use from religious institutions' rentals, then by your own argument, you'd
      need to be consistent and ALSO exclude scouts, and host of MANY OTHER
      activities that use the classrooms. Many of which are used in elem. schools which DO
      have personal property stored in the desks.

      Just curious, why do you not question the integrity of scout groups and
      other secular groups? Why is this just an issue for religious school usage?

      DG



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    • cynthia vaillancourt
      Diane, In case you missed it last week - I was also accused of questioning the integrity of the United States Military - I don t know if they count as a
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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        Diane,

        In case you missed it last week - I was also accused of questioning the integrity of the United States Military - I don't know if they count as a secular group, or are they a government group?

        In any event - I am an equal opportunity questioner - I don't think any group should be exempt from basic oversight and scrutiny... I don't think any group should be subject to special favors.... and I don't think any group should be subjected to special restrictions.

        The way we do this is to make sure that there are reasonable policies in place which are mindful of the possible negative consequences of certain actions or endeavors - and which are evenly and fairly implemented and enforced.

        This would be true of leasing facilities, granting access, and every other aspect of administering the assets and responsibilities of the HCPSS.

        Cynthia Vaillancourt

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: rgoodri973@...
        Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:57 PM
        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] Re: school=church??



        In a message dated 10/6/2004 5:16:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

        sitting at "my child's" desk


        -----
        PS - Your child doesn't own a desk. The furniture is public property.
        Taxpayers own it. If you're going to exclude (or suggest HCPSS exclude) CLASSROOM
        use from religious institutions' rentals, then by your own argument, you'd
        need to be consistent and ALSO exclude scouts, and host of MANY OTHER
        activities that use the classrooms. Many of which are used in elem. schools which DO
        have personal property stored in the desks.

        Just curious, why do you not question the integrity of scout groups and
        other secular groups? Why is this just an issue for religious school usage?

        DG



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rgoodri973@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/6/2004 6:33:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, CynthiaVaillancourt@msn.com writes: In fact, it is my understanding that there are different
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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          In a message dated 10/6/2004 6:33:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

          In fact, it is my understanding that there are different arrangements for
          scout troops (also religious based organizations) and others - the differences
          being where my questions begin.

          However, you are correct in your underlying complaint - there are many
          people in the community who do object to religious organizations using or
          benefitting in any way from school owned or operated facilities or services.


          I also have experience with scouts (cub scouts & brownie girl scouts) using
          the school facilities.

          My son's den has used elem. school classrooms as well as middle school
          classrooms. My daughter's troop has used elem. school classrooms as well as
          middle school classrooms, as well. The only contract scouts are bound to are the
          facilities use permits from Chuck Parvis' office. Don't know what type of
          contract/agreement our religious school used.

          In one of my daughter's brownie meetings, one of the scouts unknowingly
          tampered with an elem school science experiment and the teacher was furious with
          our group.

          My point is: with PROPER OVERSIGHT (by parents and rental administrators)
          it's a win-win situation to SHARE the facilities (we get use of a large
          facility and they get a large sum of rental fees).

          Plus, the burden of NOT having a facility that could accommodate 500
          religious school students was much too large for our group to ignore the issue of
          respect for personal AND public property.

          On the other hand, if a brownie troop or cub scout den abused the privilege
          of facility use (and "lost" the privilege at that school), then they could
          EASILY meet in a home, place of worship, or possibly even another public school
          --- making the stakes SMALLER and making them (potentially) LESS accountable
          (plus they don't pay for facilities b/c they use the schools on weekdays).

          The stakes were much too big for our religious school to mess up. If we
          messed up, where would we (could we) go? 500 students is a lot of desks/chairs!
          Our former-place of worship was at an interfaith center ... much too small
          to house 500 students. We couldn't "afford" to mess up the privilege of
          being a good tenant.

          DG



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • cynthia vaillancourt
          Diane: You raise great points - the oversight is the key. Your large organization obviously understood the need to be diligent to maintain high standards -
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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            Diane:

            You raise great points - the oversight is the key. Your large organization obviously understood the need to be diligent to maintain high standards - whether it was contractual or not.

            It certainly seems like the bulk of the "complaints" come from the more informal relationships. Perhaps that is part of the problem, if there is one.

            The basic question continues to be how the existing policies are being administered, are they equitable, and consistently enforced?

            The short answer seems to be no.

            Looking at the big picture - this area of HCPSS needs to be reviewed and revamped. HCPSS has assets which could be performing better - and the relatively limited "problems" ought to be fairly easily addressed.

            This issue actually has broader implications over the long term. Building needs ebb and flow - HoCo is focused largely on the need for new schools. But HoCo also "owns" buildings which are currently underutilized. In time, those schools will likely be needed as schools again - or at least schools on their sites. Some of the newer, currently overcrowded schools, will one day likely also be underutilized as populations shift again.

            The appropriate management of these assets is crucial to the longterm (very longterm) stability of the school system. Many "mature" districts which experienced declines in population "sold off" underutilized schools - and are now scrambling to find places for new schools in completely built out landlocked areas. Bad long term plan.

            For the short term, facilites use/leases/rentals should be consistent and fair from school to school throughout the district. There are currently some wildly disparate experiences from school to school, and from group to group.

            This is the basic issue for HCPSS to address.

            Cindy V


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: rgoodri973@...
            Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 8:59 PM
            To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] Re: school=church??



            In a message dated 10/6/2004 6:33:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

            In fact, it is my understanding that there are different arrangements for
            scout troops (also religious based organizations) and others - the differences
            being where my questions begin.

            However, you are correct in your underlying complaint - there are many
            people in the community who do object to religious organizations using or
            benefitting in any way from school owned or operated facilities or services.


            I also have experience with scouts (cub scouts & brownie girl scouts) using
            the school facilities.

            My son's den has used elem. school classrooms as well as middle school
            classrooms. My daughter's troop has used elem. school classrooms as well as
            middle school classrooms, as well. The only contract scouts are bound to are the
            facilities use permits from Chuck Parvis' office. Don't know what type of
            contract/agreement our religious school used.

            In one of my daughter's brownie meetings, one of the scouts unknowingly
            tampered with an elem school science experiment and the teacher was furious with
            our group.

            My point is: with PROPER OVERSIGHT (by parents and rental administrators)
            it's a win-win situation to SHARE the facilities (we get use of a large
            facility and they get a large sum of rental fees).

            Plus, the burden of NOT having a facility that could accommodate 500
            religious school students was much too large for our group to ignore the issue of
            respect for personal AND public property.

            On the other hand, if a brownie troop or cub scout den abused the privilege
            of facility use (and "lost" the privilege at that school), then they could
            EASILY meet in a home, place of worship, or possibly even another public school
            --- making the stakes SMALLER and making them (potentially) LESS accountable
            (plus they don't pay for facilities b/c they use the schools on weekdays).

            The stakes were much too big for our religious school to mess up. If we
            messed up, where would we (could we) go? 500 students is a lot of desks/chairs!
            Our former-place of worship was at an interfaith center ... much too small
            to house 500 students. We couldn't "afford" to mess up the privilege of
            being a good tenant.

            DG



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bobrosebrough21045
            When we were associated with Pack 838 (1985-1997), we only used Thunder Hill ES for the monthly pack meetings. Classrooms are just not conducive to little boy
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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              When we were associated with Pack 838 (1985-1997), we only used
              Thunder Hill ES for the monthly pack meetings. Classrooms are just
              not conducive to little boy activities. We ended up having den
              meetings at our house for something like 12 yr as we quickly
              realized that ours was a home and not a house kept for immediate
              resale. We also came to understand that the statement "your house
              is so well set up for kids" really meant "your house has been
              trashed and what's a litle more mess." Anyway, we were able to get
              away from parlor scouting and do some interesting things when we
              weren't worried about maintaining the ambience of a classroom.
              Riding herd on 75 little boys once a month was enough of a chore.

              --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, rgoodri973@a... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 10/6/2004 6:33:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              > CynthiaVaillancourt@m... writes:
              >
              > In fact, it is my understanding that there are different
              arrangements for
              > scout troops (also religious based organizations) and others -
              the differences
              > being where my questions begin.
              >
              > However, you are correct in your underlying complaint - there are
              many
              > people in the community who do object to religious organizations
              using or
              > benefitting in any way from school owned or operated facilities
              or services.
              >
              >
              > I also have experience with scouts (cub scouts & brownie girl
              scouts) using
              > the school facilities.
              >
              > My son's den has used elem. school classrooms as well as middle
              school
              > classrooms. My daughter's troop has used elem. school classrooms
              as well as
              > middle school classrooms, as well. The only contract scouts are
              bound to are the
              > facilities use permits from Chuck Parvis' office. Don't know
              what type of
              > contract/agreement our religious school used.
              >
              > In one of my daughter's brownie meetings, one of the scouts
              unknowingly
              > tampered with an elem school science experiment and the teacher
              was furious with
              > our group.
              >
              > My point is: with PROPER OVERSIGHT (by parents and rental
              administrators)
              > it's a win-win situation to SHARE the facilities (we get use of a
              large
              > facility and they get a large sum of rental fees).
              >
              > Plus, the burden of NOT having a facility that could accommodate
              500
              > religious school students was much too large for our group to
              ignore the issue of
              > respect for personal AND public property.
              >
              > On the other hand, if a brownie troop or cub scout den abused the
              privilege
              > of facility use (and "lost" the privilege at that school), then
              they could
              > EASILY meet in a home, place of worship, or possibly even another
              public school
              > --- making the stakes SMALLER and making them (potentially) LESS
              accountable
              > (plus they don't pay for facilities b/c they use the schools on
              weekdays).
              >
              > The stakes were much too big for our religious school to mess up.
              If we
              > messed up, where would we (could we) go? 500 students is a lot
              of desks/chairs!
              > Our former-place of worship was at an interfaith center ... much
              too small
              > to house 500 students. We couldn't "afford" to mess up the
              privilege of
              > being a good tenant.
              >
              > DG
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • joanpontius
              if your question was directed to me, the reason i asked was that i was suprised that a group that wasn t directly involved with children or the govt had access
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                if your question was directed to me,
                the reason i asked was that i was suprised that a group
                that wasn't directly involved with children or the govt
                had access to the school.
                for example, sometimes i think it would be a good idea
                to put together a film club, and show movies in schools,
                but wasn't sure if the club would be allowed access to the school.
                so now i know.


                --- In howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com, rgoodri973@a... wrote:
                > Just curious, why do you not question the integrity of scout
                groups and
                > other secular groups? Why is this just an issue for religious
                school usage?
                >
                > DG
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • rgoodri973@aol.com
                In a message dated 10/7/2004 9:36:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, joanpontius@yahoo.com writes: if your question was directed to me, ... No, Joan, it wasn t
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                  In a message dated 10/7/2004 9:36:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  joanpontius@... writes:

                  if your question was directed to me,



                  -----
                  No, Joan, it wasn't directed to you.

                  I think that a film club is a great idea and a great use of facilities ...
                  although it might not recoup its school facility rental expense, but is
                  definitely worth looking into. You should contact Chuck Parvis' office for info on
                  rental fees: 313-6600 x6750.

                  DG


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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