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hovet hearing

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  • cynthia vaillancourt
    To All: It was my understanding the Coach Hovet s hearing before the BOE was scheduled for Aug 3. Is that still on? Does anyone have a sense of when a
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
      To All:

      It was my understanding the Coach Hovet's hearing before the BOE was scheduled for Aug 3. Is that still on? Does anyone have a sense of when a decision might be expected following the hearing?

      I understand the Dr. Venter hearing has been postponed - does anyone know if/when it hasbeen rescheduled?

      Also, having reviewed the Budget documents, it is not clear to me if the actual legal expenses for these types of cases are lumped together - or if they are distributed among departments.

      Does anyone have an estimate or a running total on expenditures to date on the BOE/DOE side for legal fees, hearing examiners, court costs, (private investigators) etc for the Hovet, Venter, Plunkett/Stathem cases - and the various and assorted other litigation/appeals costs incurred by DOE in the last 12 months?

      Where is the cost of the private investigator and the hearing examiners fees recording in the financial reports? WHat category/line item/ budget classification applies?

      Thank you in advance for clarification.

      Cindy VaillancourtGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • RSYOSH@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Call Public Information (Patty Caplan s office) and ask how you can get this information. 410
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
        In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

        >
        > Does anyone have an estimate or a running total on expenditures to date on
        > the BOE/DOE side for legal fees, hearing examiners, court costs, (private
        > investigators) etc for the Hovet, Venter, Plunkett/Stathem cases - and the
        > various and assorted other litigation/appeals costs incurred by DOE in the last 12
        > months?
        >
        > Where is the cost of the private investigator and the hearing examiners fees
        > recording in the financial reports? WHat category/line item/ budget
        > classification applies?
        >
        > Thank you in advance for clarification.
        >

        Call Public Information (Patty Caplan's office) and ask how you can get this
        information.
        410 313 6682

        - Becky


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • cynthia vaillancourt
        Dear Becky, It s funny you should recommend this course of action. Of course, one of the first things I did was exactly that (asking public information
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
          Dear Becky,

          It's funny you should recommend this course of action. Of course, one of the first things I did was exactly that (asking public information office). The folks try to be helpful, and will point you in a direction.

          However, I have not found the directions to yield specific, complete, or credible information (credible as in accurate, not necessarily intentionally wrong).

          I am wondering if anyone else out there has completed the hunting expedition through the publically available documents to piece together a "total" amount spent by BOE/DOE on procedural machinations for lawyers, investigators, and hearing officers - who's work product in recent months has yielded a resounding failure rate.

          There are a number of places where these fees may be showing up - in addition to the obvious places the public information folks, the average citizen, and I suspect, the BOE/DOE look - which may not be included in previoulsy suggested "totals".

          For the record - if I felt that the information which was disseminated from the central office, and easily gleaned from the publically available documents issued by the DOE/BOE, I would not have felt the need to spend months of my personal and family time, energy, and money on tracking it down and exposing the many inconsistancies which I find.

          There are many honest, hard working people at HCPSS, DOE, even BOE who - because of systemic flaws, the lingering effects of poor management, and some very self-serving "individuals" - are unable to effectively do their jobs, provide accurate and complete information to the citizens of HoCo, and fulfill the mission of providing a fair, just, and effective environment for living, working and learning.

          Although I appreciate your optimism in suggesting I go to the HCPSS to get information - I seldom rely on one source of information when attempting to get to the heart of an issue.

          Sincerely,

          Cynthia Vaillancourt





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: RSYOSH@...
          Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:06 PM
          To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing

          In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

          >
          > Does anyone have an estimate or a running total on expenditures to date on
          > the BOE/DOE side for legal fees, hearing examiners, court costs, (private
          > investigators) etc for the Hovet, Venter, Plunkett/Stathem cases - and the
          > various and assorted other litigation/appeals costs incurred by DOE in the last 12
          > months?
          >
          > Where is the cost of the private investigator and the hearing examiners fees
          > recording in the financial reports? WHat category/line item/ budget
          > classification applies?
          >
          > Thank you in advance for clarification.
          >

          Call Public Information (Patty Caplan's office) and ask how you can get this
          information.
          410 313 6682

          - Becky


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Allen Dyer
          cindy, i can prepare a public information act request for the information you are seeking however you had best be prepared to pay thru the nose for the
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
            cindy,

            i can prepare a public information act request for the information
            you are seeking however you had best be prepared to pay thru the
            nose for the "search" fees as the central office uses search fees to
            discourage public snooping. the last lawyer fees records i asked
            for would have cost me over $100 to obtain according to ms. caplan.

            allen dyer

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "cynthia vaillancourt" <CynthiaVaillancourt@...>
            To: "howardpubliced" <howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:42 PM
            Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing


            > Dear Becky,
            >
            > It's funny you should recommend this course of action. Of course, one of the first things I did
            was exactly that (asking public information office). The folks try to be helpful, and will point
            you in a direction.
            >
            > However, I have not found the directions to yield specific, complete, or credible information
            (credible as in accurate, not necessarily intentionally wrong).
            >
            > I am wondering if anyone else out there has completed the hunting expedition through the
            publically available documents to piece together a "total" amount spent by BOE/DOE on procedural
            machinations for lawyers, investigators, and hearing officers - who's work product in recent months
            has yielded a resounding failure rate.
            >
            > There are a number of places where these fees may be showing up - in addition to the obvious
            places the public information folks, the average citizen, and I suspect, the BOE/DOE look - which
            may not be included in previoulsy suggested "totals".
            >
            > For the record - if I felt that the information which was disseminated from the central office,
            and easily gleaned from the publically available documents issued by the DOE/BOE, I would not have
            felt the need to spend months of my personal and family time, energy, and money on tracking it down
            and exposing the many inconsistancies which I find.
            >
            > There are many honest, hard working people at HCPSS, DOE, even BOE who - because of systemic
            flaws, the lingering effects of poor management, and some very self-serving "individuals" - are
            unable to effectively do their jobs, provide accurate and complete information to the citizens of
            HoCo, and fulfill the mission of providing a fair, just, and effective environment for living,
            working and learning.
            >
            > Although I appreciate your optimism in suggesting I go to the HCPSS to get information - I seldom
            rely on one source of information when attempting to get to the heart of an issue.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Cynthia Vaillancourt
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: RSYOSH@...
            > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:06 PM
            > To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing
            >
            > In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:
            >
            > >
            > > Does anyone have an estimate or a running total on expenditures to date on
            > > the BOE/DOE side for legal fees, hearing examiners, court costs, (private
            > > investigators) etc for the Hovet, Venter, Plunkett/Stathem cases - and the
            > > various and assorted other litigation/appeals costs incurred by DOE in the last 12
            > > months?
            > >
            > > Where is the cost of the private investigator and the hearing examiners fees
            > > recording in the financial reports? WHat category/line item/ budget
            > > classification applies?
            > >
            > > Thank you in advance for clarification.
            > >
            >
            > Call Public Information (Patty Caplan's office) and ask how you can get this
            > information.
            > 410 313 6682
            >
            > - Becky
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages posted here are placed in
            the public domain unless the poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
            articles) retain their original copyright status.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > This is the Howard Public Education Mailing List. All original messages posted here are placed in
            the public domain unless the poster states otherwise. Re-published messages (i.e. newspaper
            articles) retain their original copyright status.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • RSYOSH@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/1/2004 4:06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... This is one of the big problems with the budget as it is currently constructed. It s also one
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
              In a message dated 8/1/2004 4:06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

              >
              > There are a number of places where these fees may be showing up - in
              > addition to the obvious places the public information folks, the average citizen,
              > and I suspect, the BOE/DOE look - which may not be included in previoulsy
              > suggested "totals

              This is one of the big problems with the budget as it is currently
              constructed. It's also one of the reasons I'm thrilled both SIdney Cousin and Sandy
              Ericson are both back on staff for the process of re-writing the way the budget is
              structured. They understand the current papertrail the way a newbie never
              would, and will be invaluable during the process.

              - Becky


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • cynthia vaillancourt
              Becky, I really hope you are right - and am also hopeful that it is simply a matter of the flaws in the accounting system. It may be the lack of an existing
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
                Becky,

                I really hope you are right - and am also hopeful that it is simply a matter of the flaws in the accounting system.

                It may be the lack of an existing "category" or "line item" for things like "private investigators" - but I'm not sure that lumping something like that into the Superintendent's administrative budget is the most reasonable place for it - if that is where it is.

                Time will tell if Cousin and the other "non-newbies" will construct a more complete and transparent reporting process.

                The "will" to be transparent must be there. Right now, it looks like there are still efforts being made to obscure some of the actual expenses related (in this case) to the amount of money actually being spent on "investigations" "legal fees" "hearing examiners""employee time and resources" etc - involved in taking an appeal completely through every phase of the convoluted system we have in place.

                I was simply putting together a little summary of how much the appeal process costs - when it became clear that there are some "oddities".

                I am struck by how virtually every small issue i look into ends up shrouded in some kind of "oddity". Most things really ought to be more straightforward.

                cindy V







                ----- Original Message -----
                From: RSYOSH@...
                Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 9:45 PM
                To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing

                In a message dated 8/1/2004 4:06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                >
                > There are a number of places where these fees may be showing up - in
                > addition to the obvious places the public information folks, the average citizen,
                > and I suspect, the BOE/DOE look - which may not be included in previoulsy
                > suggested "totals

                This is one of the big problems with the budget as it is currently
                constructed. It's also one of the reasons I'm thrilled both SIdney Cousin and Sandy
                Ericson are both back on staff for the process of re-writing the way the budget is
                structured. They understand the current papertrail the way a newbie never
                would, and will be invaluable during the process.

                - Becky


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • RSYOSH@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/1/2004 11:06:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Start with the line item for legal expenses [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 1, 2004
                  In a message dated 8/1/2004 11:06:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                  CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                  > Becky,
                  >
                  > I really hope you are right - and am also hopeful that it is simply a matter
                  > of the flaws in the accounting system.
                  >
                  > It may be the lack of an existing "category" or "line item" for things like
                  > "private investigators" - but I'm not sure that lumping something like that
                  > into the Superintendent's administrative budget is the most reasonable place
                  > for it - if that is where it is.
                  >

                  Start with the line item for legal expenses


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • cynthia vaillancourt
                  Becky writes - start with the line item for legal expenses. Now wouldn t that be simple? Of course, that is the obvious place to start - and, I suppose,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 2, 2004
                    Becky writes - "start with the line item for legal expenses."

                    Now wouldn't that be simple? Of course, that is the obvious place to "start" -
                    and, I suppose, if I were simple-minded I could leave it at that.

                    However, it is clear that there are many other expenses related to the administration of the legal activities currently underway at HCPSS which are not adequately represented in that line item.

                    As one of the many citizens of the county who is actually paying the bills - I am interested in knowing what the real costs of the whole "pie" are - not just the cost of some of the ingredients.

                    So, while I thank you for your "help" in uncovering what the true, actual and total costs of the continuing litigation, legal manuevering in appeals cases, and administrative cost involved in running simple (and complex) appeals through a long and burdensome process - I was really rather hoping for something more - like:

                    Where, specifically, is the private investigator's report payment accounted for. At one point it was to be included in the Superintendent's "slush fund" - I mwean, administrative budget - but as of last week it was not specifically referenced.

                    Where, specifically, is the amount charged by the hearing examiners - and (why are they not) individuated by case?

                    At some point, it would be interesting to extracxt the specific amount the "DOE legal counsel" charged HCPSS for the preparation and court appearences relative to the three appearences they made in their failed arguments to keep documents away from Coach Hovet.

                    How many hours of employee time were spent in depositions, meetings, and hearings - some of which may have qualified for payments above and beyond normal salary - or which should be charged to administrative time and not teaching/or direct duty time. How many substitute teachers were paid while teachers were otherwise occupied? What other costs are involved?

                    At $5 (or so) per page, copies are awfully expensive - oh, wait - that's only charged to the defendents/appellants.

                    How much of the time spent on these cases is "comped" at the expense of the actual education responsibilities of the parties involved?

                    When I worked at law firms - we always knew how much secretarial time. paralegal time, number (and size) of copies, phone time and charges, messengers, tapes used in recording devices, reporters, snacks, and even bottled water -every cost involved in each case - down to the last dime (literally) - and that was almost 20 years ago.

                    If one were to accept the line item for "legal fees" as the actual cost of the "legal" cases HCCPSS is involved in - well, that would explain why we don't have evoungh money for new books, enough teachers, etc.

                    Cindy V




                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: RSYOSH@...
                    Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 12:03 AM
                    To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing

                    In a message dated 8/1/2004 11:06:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                    > Becky,
                    >
                    > I really hope you are right - and am also hopeful that it is simply a matter
                    > of the flaws in the accounting system.
                    >
                    > It may be the lack of an existing "category" or "line item" for things like
                    > "private investigators" - but I'm not sure that lumping something like that
                    > into the Superintendent's administrative budget is the most reasonable place
                    > for it - if that is where it is.
                    >

                    Start with the line item for legal expenses


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • RSYOSH@aol.com
                    In a message dated 8/2/2004 8:55:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... ok - obviously you don t want my help, you just want to argue I won t annoy you anymore -
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 2, 2004
                      In a message dated 8/2/2004 8:55:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                      CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                      > Becky writes - "start with the line item for legal expenses."
                      >
                      > Now wouldn't that be simple? Of course, that is the obvious place to
                      > "start" -
                      > and, I suppose, if I were simple-minded I could leave it at that.
                      >
                      > However, it is clear that there are many other expenses related to the
                      > administration of the legal activities currently underway at HCPSS which are not
                      > adequately represented in that line item.
                      >
                      >

                      ok - obviously you don't want my help, you just want to argue
                      I won't annoy you anymore

                      - Becky


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mark Mangus
                      Cynthia, I m not sure why you want all this information. I am sure the DOE has a line item in their budget for legal expenses every year, regardless of whether
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 2, 2004
                        Cynthia,
                        I'm not sure why you want all this information. I am sure the DOE has a line item in their budget for legal expenses every year, regardless of whether it is for Hovet or the board cronies.

                        In case you haven't noticed, this board is becoming the Allen and Cynthia show. Why don't you all try to find something to converse about on here that concerns (and intrigues) all and take all the legal crap offline. You guys are boring us all to death.

                        Mark

                        cynthia vaillancourt <CynthiaVaillancourt@...> wrote:
                        Dear Becky,

                        It's funny you should recommend this course of action. Of course, one of the first things I did was exactly that (asking public information office). The folks try to be helpful, and will point you in a direction.

                        However, I have not found the directions to yield specific, complete, or credible information (credible as in accurate, not necessarily intentionally wrong).

                        I am wondering if anyone else out there has completed the hunting expedition through the publically available documents to piece together a "total" amount spent by BOE/DOE on procedural machinations for lawyers, investigators, and hearing officers - who's work product in recent months has yielded a resounding failure rate.

                        There are a number of places where these fees may be showing up - in addition to the obvious places the public information folks, the average citizen, and I suspect, the BOE/DOE look - which may not be included in previoulsy suggested "totals".

                        For the record - if I felt that the information which was disseminated from the central office, and easily gleaned from the publically available documents issued by the DOE/BOE, I would not have felt the need to spend months of my personal and family time, energy, and money on tracking it down and exposing the many inconsistancies which I find.

                        There are many honest, hard working people at HCPSS, DOE, even BOE who - because of systemic flaws, the lingering effects of poor management, and some very self-serving "individuals" - are unable to effectively do their jobs, provide accurate and complete information to the citizens of HoCo, and fulfill the mission of providing a fair, just, and effective environment for living, working and learning.

                        Although I appreciate your optimism in suggesting I go to the HCPSS to get information - I seldom rely on one source of information when attempting to get to the heart of an issue.

                        Sincerely,

                        Cynthia Vaillancourt





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: RSYOSH@...
                        Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 3:06 PM
                        To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing

                        In a message dated 8/1/2004 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                        >
                        > Does anyone have an estimate or a running total on expenditures to date on
                        > the BOE/DOE side for legal fees, hearing examiners, court costs, (private
                        > investigators) etc for the Hovet, Venter, Plunkett/Stathem cases - and the
                        > various and assorted other litigation/appeals costs incurred by DOE in the last 12
                        > months?
                        >
                        > Where is the cost of the private investigator and the hearing examiners fees
                        > recording in the financial reports? WHat category/line item/ budget
                        > classification applies?
                        >
                        > Thank you in advance for clarification.
                        >

                        Call Public Information (Patty Caplan's office) and ask how you can get this
                        information.
                        410 313 6682

                        - Becky


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • cynthia vaillancourt
                        Dear Becky, Maybe it is the standard email mode of communication using short responses which made your suggestions to start with the line item for legal
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 2, 2004
                          Dear Becky,

                          Maybe it is the "standard" email mode of communication using "short responses" which made your suggestions to "start with the line item for legal expenses" or "call the public information office" strike me as curt. (one of the reasons I am not comfortable with sound bytes)

                          If that was not your intention, I certainly apologize for sounding curt in response.

                          My point is that the obvious things (looking at the budget, calling public information, assuming full disclosure) do not work at HCPSS - and this is a fundamental problem.

                          I have been doing some "forensic accounting" - a task for which I am not currently suited, and for which I have few reliable resources to audit.

                          I know many of the readers of this group (not necessarily open participants) have access to a great deal of this hard to find information - and am hoping either someone who has already done the research will share, or someone with unique access will contribute (on line or off).

                          It is always risky to "jump on" comments - especially when one might be operating without all the relevent information, or flawed data. Having been the recipient of recent "jumping on" by individuals who "jumped first" then learned or re-read later - I must remember to be more careful not to make assumptions myself.

                          Under normal circumstances with an average citizen your suggestions would be reasonable and helpful. I guess I felt it should be fair to assume that I would have obviously already taken those routes.

                          Thank you for reminding me to be more generous in my interpretations.

                          Cindy Vaillancourt



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: RSYOSH@...
                          Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:36 AM
                          To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing

                          In a message dated 8/2/2004 8:55:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                          CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                          > Becky writes - "start with the line item for legal expenses."
                          >
                          > Now wouldn't that be simple? Of course, that is the obvious place to
                          > "start" -
                          > and, I suppose, if I were simple-minded I could leave it at that.
                          >
                          > However, it is clear that there are many other expenses related to the
                          > administration of the legal activities currently underway at HCPSS which are not
                          > adequately represented in that line item.
                          >
                          >

                          ok - obviously you don't want my help, you just want to argue
                          I won't annoy you anymore

                          - Becky


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • RSYOSH@aol.com
                          In a message dated 8/2/2004 11:45:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... -- odd, because I ve had a LOT of success by using those methods [Non-text portions of this
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 2, 2004
                            In a message dated 8/2/2004 11:45:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                            CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                            > My point is that the obvious things (looking at the budget, calling public
                            > information, assuming full disclosure) do not work at HCPSS - and this is a
                            > fundamental problem

                            -- odd, because I've had a LOT of success by using those methods


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • cynthia vaillancourt
                            Becky, When I first looked into cost analysis, and budget items using these tools - I also thought I was having success - until I learned later that the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 2, 2004
                              Becky,

                              When I first looked into cost analysis, and budget items using these tools - I also thought I was having "success" - until I learned later that the underlying information was incorrect, incomplete, or grossly misleading

                              It is entirely possible to look at the budget, pull out the reported numbers, and come up with what looks like a supportable cost analysis. Experience tells me to be very careful hanging too much on those numbers, however.

                              There is the difference between actual success and the appearence of it.

                              I prefer the real thing.

                              Cindy V.





                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: RSYOSH@...
                              Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 1:20 PM
                              To: howardpubliced@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [howardpubliced] hovet hearing

                              In a message dated 8/2/2004 11:45:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                              CynthiaVaillancourt@... writes:

                              > My point is that the obvious things (looking at the budget, calling public
                              > information, assuming full disclosure) do not work at HCPSS - and this is a
                              > fundamental problem

                              -- odd, because I've had a LOT of success by using those methods


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