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Re: [howardpubliced] Central Office Staff

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  • Steve-Jen Swanhart
    On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:00:22 -0000 perlpubl ... Barry, I think you also found out why the student/computer ratio is out of kilter! It
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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      On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:00:22 -0000 "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@...>
      writes:
      > For quite some time I've asked how do know how many central office
      > staff workers we need. The Performance Audit showed we have 5.5
      > central office staff for each 1000 students while Montgomery County
      > has 4.2 central office staff for each 1000 students.
      Barry,
      I think you also found out why the student/computer ratio is out of
      kilter! It central office staff may be nearly 400% over staffed. Wow
      Steve
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    • bobrosebrough21045
      The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has area supervisors that do not count against the figure for central office. These supervisors have
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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        The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has area
        supervisors that do not count against the figure for central office.
        These supervisors have staff that don't count against the cental
        office, either.

        I have broken down some of these positions and have found that this
        bureaucratic overload that you are fond of pilloring can be
        attributed to complying directly or indirectly with IDEA or other
        programs for problematic kids. For example, when requested, the
        HCPSS must assemble a team to assess special ed needs for a kid and
        this assessment must be done within 90 days. Every day, the DSM IV
        expands to include more categories of kids that the HCPSS are require
        to provide services for. These folks are part of that bureaucratic
        overload that you are fond of skewering. What would you do with a
        prego teen not old enough to be out of school? HoCo does provide
        services for that kid out of the Central Office (Fram oil filter
        commerical - pay me or pay me later).

        Because of the special ed programs in HCPSS, there is a mini influx
        from your vaunted MoCo by parents seeking those services provided by
        that dreaded central office

        180 slots directly or indirectly involved with problematic kids.

        CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION (2)
        ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS (2)
        ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TEAM (9)
        COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER (Faulkner Ridge) - Speech/Reading/Vision (14)
        HEALTH EDUCATION (3)
        HOME INSTRUCTION (2)
        SPECIAL EDUCATION AND STUDENT SERVICES (2)
        SPECIAL EDUCATION (11)
        SPECIAL EDUCATION SUPPORT @ FAULKNER RIDGE (17)
        VISION/HEARING PROGRAM (11)
        ACADEMIC INTERVENTION (1)
        ACADEMIC SUPPORT SERVICES (8)
        COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER - Psychologists (9)
        DISABILITY AWARENESS PROJECT (1)
        EARLY INTERVENTION SERVICES (9)
        FAMILY SUPPORT & RESOURCE CTR. (FAULKNER RIDGE) (3)
        GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING (2)
        HOME AND HOSPITAL SERVICES (2)
        PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES (59)
        PUPIL PERSONNEL SERVICES (2)
        PUPIL PERSONNEL WORKERS @ ARL (18)
        STUDENT SERVICES (2)
        TEEN PARENTING AND OUTREACH (1)
      • perlpubl
        Bob, I m not sure why you think Montgomery County s area supervisors are not being counted - they are. I have avoided using anecdotal evidence and I am
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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          Bob,

          I'm not sure why you think Montgomery County's area supervisors are
          not being counted - they are. I have avoided using anecdotal
          evidence
          and I am working with the raw numbers - here they are from the
          Performance Audit and the Maryland State Department of Education.
          Remember,these numbers were before we added our Assoc. Supts. and
          Montgomery announced they were reducing their central office staff by
          80 people.

          Total Students:
          Montgomery: 134,000
          Howard: 45,000

          Superintendents, deputy, associate, and assistant superintendents.
          Montgomery 14, staff per 1000 students = .10
          Howard 4, staff per 1000 students = .09

          Directors, coordinators, supervisors, and central office
          administrators.
          Montgomery 141, staff per 1000 students = 1.05
          Howard 80.5, staff per 1000 students = 1.79

          Psychological personnel
          Montgomery 80.6, staff per 1000 students = .60
          Howard 46.8, staff per 1000 students = 1.04


          Barry Tevelow







          --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
          bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
          > The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has area
          > supervisors that do not count against the figure for central
          office.
          > These supervisors have staff that don't count against the cental
          > office, either.
          >
          > I have broken down some of these positions and have found that this
          > bureaucratic overload that you are fond of pilloring can be
          > attributed to complying directly or indirectly with IDEA or other
          > programs for problematic kids. For example, when requested, the
          > HCPSS must assemble a team to assess special ed needs for a kid and
          > this assessment must be done within 90 days. Every day, the DSM IV
          > expands to include more categories of kids that the HCPSS are
          require
          > to provide services for. These folks are part of that bureaucratic
          > overload that you are fond of skewering. What would you do with a
          > prego teen not old enough to be out of school? HoCo does provide
          > services for that kid out of the Central Office (Fram oil filter
          > commerical - pay me or pay me later).
          >
          > Because of the special ed programs in HCPSS, there is a mini influx
          > from your vaunted MoCo by parents seeking those services provided
          by
          > that dreaded central office
          >
          > 180 slots directly or indirectly involved with problematic kids.
          >
          > CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION (2)
          > ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS (2)
          > ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TEAM (9)
          > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER (Faulkner Ridge) - Speech/Reading/Vision
          (14)
          > HEALTH EDUCATION (3)
          > HOME INSTRUCTION (2)
          > SPECIAL EDUCATION AND STUDENT SERVICES (2)
          > SPECIAL EDUCATION (11)
          > SPECIAL EDUCATION SUPPORT @ FAULKNER RIDGE (17)
          > VISION/HEARING PROGRAM (11)
          > ACADEMIC INTERVENTION (1)
          > ACADEMIC SUPPORT SERVICES (8)
          > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER - Psychologists (9)
          > DISABILITY AWARENESS PROJECT (1)
          > EARLY INTERVENTION SERVICES (9)
          > FAMILY SUPPORT & RESOURCE CTR. (FAULKNER RIDGE) (3)
          > GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING (2)
          > HOME AND HOSPITAL SERVICES (2)
          > PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES (59)
          > PUPIL PERSONNEL SERVICES (2)
          > PUPIL PERSONNEL WORKERS @ ARL (18)
          > STUDENT SERVICES (2)
          > TEEN PARENTING AND OUTREACH (1)
        • bobrosebrough21045
          Your logic still doesn t work. There is a certain amount of dilution as you increase the population size. It is more appropriate to compare another school
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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            Your logic still doesn't work. There is a certain amount of dilution
            as you increase the population size. It is more appropriate to
            compare another school system of HoCo's size to see if ther is more
            or less bureaucratic overload. MoCo may cut 80 bodies and then bring
            poeple in from the field to cover (this is one of the tricks of the
            Reagan administration). Those psyc types that you mention are
            directly attributable to HoCo's decision to provide more services to
            problematic kids. I eally could care less about your figures - name
            the central office types that you want to can. The greatest rate of
            increase is in special ed, both at central office and in the budget -
            who goes?

            You have one sup in each system - how to figure parts of a sup -
            meaningless stat. The number of central office bodies is still
            greater in MoCo - the solution to pollution is dilution.

            --- In howardpubliced@y..., "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@e...> wrote:
            > Bob,
            >
            > I'm not sure why you think Montgomery County's area supervisors are
            > not being counted - they are. I have avoided using anecdotal
            > evidence
            > and I am working with the raw numbers - here they are from the
            > Performance Audit and the Maryland State Department of Education.
            > Remember,these numbers were before we added our Assoc. Supts. and
            > Montgomery announced they were reducing their central office staff
            by
            > 80 people.
            >
            > Total Students:
            > Montgomery: 134,000
            > Howard: 45,000
            >
            > Superintendents, deputy, associate, and assistant superintendents.
            > Montgomery 14, staff per 1000 students = .10
            > Howard 4, staff per 1000 students = .09
            >
            > Directors, coordinators, supervisors, and central office
            > administrators.
            > Montgomery 141, staff per 1000 students = 1.05
            > Howard 80.5, staff per 1000 students = 1.79
            >
            > Psychological personnel
            > Montgomery 80.6, staff per 1000 students = .60
            > Howard 46.8, staff per 1000 students = 1.04
            >
            >
            > Barry Tevelow
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
            > bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
            > > The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has area
            > > supervisors that do not count against the figure for central
            > office.
            > > These supervisors have staff that don't count against the cental
            > > office, either.
            > >
            > > I have broken down some of these positions and have found that
            this
            > > bureaucratic overload that you are fond of pilloring can be
            > > attributed to complying directly or indirectly with IDEA or other
            > > programs for problematic kids. For example, when requested, the
            > > HCPSS must assemble a team to assess special ed needs for a kid
            and
            > > this assessment must be done within 90 days. Every day, the DSM
            IV
            > > expands to include more categories of kids that the HCPSS are
            > require
            > > to provide services for. These folks are part of that
            bureaucratic
            > > overload that you are fond of skewering. What would you do with a
            > > prego teen not old enough to be out of school? HoCo does provide
            > > services for that kid out of the Central Office (Fram oil filter
            > > commerical - pay me or pay me later).
            > >
            > > Because of the special ed programs in HCPSS, there is a mini
            influx
            > > from your vaunted MoCo by parents seeking those services provided
            > by
            > > that dreaded central office
            > >
            > > 180 slots directly or indirectly involved with problematic kids.
            > >
            > > CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION (2)
            > > ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS (2)
            > > ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TEAM (9)
            > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER (Faulkner Ridge) - Speech/Reading/Vision
            > (14)
            > > HEALTH EDUCATION (3)
            > > HOME INSTRUCTION (2)
            > > SPECIAL EDUCATION AND STUDENT SERVICES (2)
            > > SPECIAL EDUCATION (11)
            > > SPECIAL EDUCATION SUPPORT @ FAULKNER RIDGE (17)
            > > VISION/HEARING PROGRAM (11)
            > > ACADEMIC INTERVENTION (1)
            > > ACADEMIC SUPPORT SERVICES (8)
            > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER - Psychologists (9)
            > > DISABILITY AWARENESS PROJECT (1)
            > > EARLY INTERVENTION SERVICES (9)
            > > FAMILY SUPPORT & RESOURCE CTR. (FAULKNER RIDGE) (3)
            > > GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING (2)
            > > HOME AND HOSPITAL SERVICES (2)
            > > PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES (59)
            > > PUPIL PERSONNEL SERVICES (2)
            > > PUPIL PERSONNEL WORKERS @ ARL (18)
            > > STUDENT SERVICES (2)
            > > TEEN PARENTING AND OUTREACH (1)
          • perlpubl
            I m not sure I understand what you mean my logic doesn t work. All I ve done is present the raw numbers from the Performance Audit and the MSDE. Your comment
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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              I'm not sure I understand what you mean my logic doesn't work. All
              I've done is present the raw numbers from the Performance Audit and
              the MSDE.

              Your comment that HoCo provides more services to problem kids than
              Montgomery Co is an opinion. I presented data.

              If you are contending that there is additional overhead because of a
              larger enrollment, I may agree with you.

              I've walked around the central office. I could list many areas that
              could be reorganized with a tremendous cost savings. I'm not sure it
              serves a purpose to go into those details in this forum.

              Barry Tevelow


              --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
              bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
              > Your logic still doesn't work. There is a certain amount of
              dilution
              > as you increase the population size. It is more appropriate to
              > compare another school system of HoCo's size to see if ther is more
              > or less bureaucratic overload. MoCo may cut 80 bodies and then
              bring
              > poeple in from the field to cover (this is one of the tricks of the
              > Reagan administration). Those psyc types that you mention are
              > directly attributable to HoCo's decision to provide more services
              to
              > problematic kids. I eally could care less about your figures - name
              > the central office types that you want to can. The greatest rate
              of
              > increase is in special ed, both at central office and in the budget
              -
              > who goes?
              >
              > You have one sup in each system - how to figure parts of a sup -
              > meaningless stat. The number of central office bodies is still
              > greater in MoCo - the solution to pollution is dilution.
              >
              > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@e...> wrote:
              > > Bob,
              > >
              > > I'm not sure why you think Montgomery County's area supervisors
              are
              > > not being counted - they are. I have avoided using anecdotal
              > > evidence
              > > and I am working with the raw numbers - here they are from the
              > > Performance Audit and the Maryland State Department of Education.

              > > Remember,these numbers were before we added our Assoc. Supts. and
              > > Montgomery announced they were reducing their central office
              staff
              > by
              > > 80 people.
              > >
              > > Total Students:
              > > Montgomery: 134,000
              > > Howard: 45,000
              > >
              > > Superintendents, deputy, associate, and assistant superintendents.
              > > Montgomery 14, staff per 1000 students = .10
              > > Howard 4, staff per 1000 students = .09
              > >
              > > Directors, coordinators, supervisors, and central office
              > > administrators.
              > > Montgomery 141, staff per 1000 students = 1.05
              > > Howard 80.5, staff per 1000 students = 1.79
              > >
              > > Psychological personnel
              > > Montgomery 80.6, staff per 1000 students = .60
              > > Howard 46.8, staff per 1000 students = 1.04
              > >
              > >
              > > Barry Tevelow
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
              > > bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
              > > > The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has
              area
              > > > supervisors that do not count against the figure for central
              > > office.
              > > > These supervisors have staff that don't count against the
              cental
              > > > office, either.
              > > >
              > > > I have broken down some of these positions and have found that
              > this
              > > > bureaucratic overload that you are fond of pilloring can be
              > > > attributed to complying directly or indirectly with IDEA or
              other
              > > > programs for problematic kids. For example, when requested,
              the
              > > > HCPSS must assemble a team to assess special ed needs for a kid
              > and
              > > > this assessment must be done within 90 days. Every day, the
              DSM
              > IV
              > > > expands to include more categories of kids that the HCPSS are
              > > require
              > > > to provide services for. These folks are part of that
              > bureaucratic
              > > > overload that you are fond of skewering. What would you do with
              a
              > > > prego teen not old enough to be out of school? HoCo does
              provide
              > > > services for that kid out of the Central Office (Fram oil
              filter
              > > > commerical - pay me or pay me later).
              > > >
              > > > Because of the special ed programs in HCPSS, there is a mini
              > influx
              > > > from your vaunted MoCo by parents seeking those services
              provided
              > > by
              > > > that dreaded central office
              > > >
              > > > 180 slots directly or indirectly involved with problematic kids.
              > > >
              > > > CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION (2)
              > > > ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS (2)
              > > > ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TEAM (9)
              > > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER (Faulkner Ridge) -
              Speech/Reading/Vision
              > > (14)
              > > > HEALTH EDUCATION (3)
              > > > HOME INSTRUCTION (2)
              > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION AND STUDENT SERVICES (2)
              > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION (11)
              > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION SUPPORT @ FAULKNER RIDGE (17)
              > > > VISION/HEARING PROGRAM (11)
              > > > ACADEMIC INTERVENTION (1)
              > > > ACADEMIC SUPPORT SERVICES (8)
              > > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER - Psychologists (9)
              > > > DISABILITY AWARENESS PROJECT (1)
              > > > EARLY INTERVENTION SERVICES (9)
              > > > FAMILY SUPPORT & RESOURCE CTR. (FAULKNER RIDGE) (3)
              > > > GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING (2)
              > > > HOME AND HOSPITAL SERVICES (2)
              > > > PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES (59)
              > > > PUPIL PERSONNEL SERVICES (2)
              > > > PUPIL PERSONNEL WORKERS @ ARL (18)
              > > > STUDENT SERVICES (2)
              > > > TEEN PARENTING AND OUTREACH (1)
            • bobrosebrough21045
              Gee a boogie or two around club 108 and you are an expert. I am no more opinionated about HoCo providing more special services than MoCo than you are in you
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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                Gee a boogie or two around club 108 and you are an expert. I am no
                more opinionated about HoCo providing more special services than MoCo
                than you are in you sashays around club 108. Ask the folks in the
                Special Ed community about comparisons between the two systems.

                I've walked around the central office. I could list many areas that
                could be reorganized with a tremendous cost savings. I'm not sure it
                serves a purpose to go into those details in this forum.


                --- In howardpubliced@y..., "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@e...> wrote:
                > I'm not sure I understand what you mean my logic doesn't work. All
                > I've done is present the raw numbers from the Performance Audit and
                > the MSDE.
                >
                > Your comment that HoCo provides more services to problem kids than
                > Montgomery Co is an opinion. I presented data.
                >
                > If you are contending that there is additional overhead because of
                a
                > larger enrollment, I may agree with you.
                >
                > I've walked around the central office. I could list many areas
                that
                > could be reorganized with a tremendous cost savings. I'm not sure
                it
                > serves a purpose to go into those details in this forum.
                >
                > Barry Tevelow
                >
                >
                > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
                > bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
                > > Your logic still doesn't work. There is a certain amount of
                > dilution
                > > as you increase the population size. It is more appropriate to
                > > compare another school system of HoCo's size to see if ther is
                more
                > > or less bureaucratic overload. MoCo may cut 80 bodies and then
                > bring
                > > poeple in from the field to cover (this is one of the tricks of
                the
                > > Reagan administration). Those psyc types that you mention are
                > > directly attributable to HoCo's decision to provide more services
                > to
                > > problematic kids. I eally could care less about your figures -
                name
                > > the central office types that you want to can. The greatest rate
                > of
                > > increase is in special ed, both at central office and in the
                budget
                > -
                > > who goes?
                > >
                > > You have one sup in each system - how to figure parts of a sup -
                > > meaningless stat. The number of central office bodies is still
                > > greater in MoCo - the solution to pollution is dilution.
                > >
                > > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@e...> wrote:
                > > > Bob,
                > > >
                > > > I'm not sure why you think Montgomery County's area supervisors
                > are
                > > > not being counted - they are. I have avoided using anecdotal
                > > > evidence
                > > > and I am working with the raw numbers - here they are from the
                > > > Performance Audit and the Maryland State Department of
                Education.
                >
                > > > Remember,these numbers were before we added our Assoc. Supts.
                and
                > > > Montgomery announced they were reducing their central office
                > staff
                > > by
                > > > 80 people.
                > > >
                > > > Total Students:
                > > > Montgomery: 134,000
                > > > Howard: 45,000
                > > >
                > > > Superintendents, deputy, associate, and assistant
                superintendents.
                > > > Montgomery 14, staff per 1000 students = .10
                > > > Howard 4, staff per 1000 students = .09
                > > >
                > > > Directors, coordinators, supervisors, and central office
                > > > administrators.
                > > > Montgomery 141, staff per 1000 students = 1.05
                > > > Howard 80.5, staff per 1000 students = 1.79
                > > >
                > > > Psychological personnel
                > > > Montgomery 80.6, staff per 1000 students = .60
                > > > Howard 46.8, staff per 1000 students = 1.04
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Barry Tevelow
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
                > > > bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
                > > > > The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has
                > area
                > > > > supervisors that do not count against the figure for central
                > > > office.
                > > > > These supervisors have staff that don't count against the
                > cental
                > > > > office, either.
                > > > >
                > > > > I have broken down some of these positions and have found
                that
                > > this
                > > > > bureaucratic overload that you are fond of pilloring can be
                > > > > attributed to complying directly or indirectly with IDEA or
                > other
                > > > > programs for problematic kids. For example, when requested,
                > the
                > > > > HCPSS must assemble a team to assess special ed needs for a
                kid
                > > and
                > > > > this assessment must be done within 90 days. Every day, the
                > DSM
                > > IV
                > > > > expands to include more categories of kids that the HCPSS are
                > > > require
                > > > > to provide services for. These folks are part of that
                > > bureaucratic
                > > > > overload that you are fond of skewering. What would you do
                with
                > a
                > > > > prego teen not old enough to be out of school? HoCo does
                > provide
                > > > > services for that kid out of the Central Office (Fram oil
                > filter
                > > > > commerical - pay me or pay me later).
                > > > >
                > > > > Because of the special ed programs in HCPSS, there is a mini
                > > influx
                > > > > from your vaunted MoCo by parents seeking those services
                > provided
                > > > by
                > > > > that dreaded central office
                > > > >
                > > > > 180 slots directly or indirectly involved with problematic
                kids.
                > > > >
                > > > > CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION (2)
                > > > > ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS (2)
                > > > > ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TEAM (9)
                > > > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER (Faulkner Ridge) -
                > Speech/Reading/Vision
                > > > (14)
                > > > > HEALTH EDUCATION (3)
                > > > > HOME INSTRUCTION (2)
                > > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION AND STUDENT SERVICES (2)
                > > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION (11)
                > > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION SUPPORT @ FAULKNER RIDGE (17)
                > > > > VISION/HEARING PROGRAM (11)
                > > > > ACADEMIC INTERVENTION (1)
                > > > > ACADEMIC SUPPORT SERVICES (8)
                > > > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER - Psychologists (9)
                > > > > DISABILITY AWARENESS PROJECT (1)
                > > > > EARLY INTERVENTION SERVICES (9)
                > > > > FAMILY SUPPORT & RESOURCE CTR. (FAULKNER RIDGE) (3)
                > > > > GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING (2)
                > > > > HOME AND HOSPITAL SERVICES (2)
                > > > > PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES (59)
                > > > > PUPIL PERSONNEL SERVICES (2)
                > > > > PUPIL PERSONNEL WORKERS @ ARL (18)
                > > > > STUDENT SERVICES (2)
                > > > > TEEN PARENTING AND OUTREACH (1)
              • perlpubl
                More than one or two around club 108 and I m still not an expert. I know people in the Special Ed community from both systems. Barry Tevelow
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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                  More than one or two around club 108 and I'm still not an expert. I
                  know people in the Special Ed community from both systems.

                  Barry Tevelow


                  --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
                  bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
                  > Gee a boogie or two around club 108 and you are an expert. I am no
                  > more opinionated about HoCo providing more special services than MoCo
                  > than you are in you sashays around club 108. Ask the folks in the
                  > Special Ed community about comparisons between the two systems.
                  >
                  > I've walked around the central office. I could list many areas that
                  > could be reorganized with a tremendous cost savings. I'm not sure it
                  > serves a purpose to go into those details in this forum.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@e...> wrote:
                  > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean my logic doesn't work. All
                  > > I've done is present the raw numbers from the Performance Audit and
                  > > the MSDE.
                  > >
                  > > Your comment that HoCo provides more services to problem kids than
                  > > Montgomery Co is an opinion. I presented data.
                  > >
                  > > If you are contending that there is additional overhead because of
                  > a
                  > > larger enrollment, I may agree with you.
                  > >
                  > > I've walked around the central office. I could list many areas
                  > that
                  > > could be reorganized with a tremendous cost savings. I'm not sure
                  > it
                  > > serves a purpose to go into those details in this forum.
                  > >
                  > > Barry Tevelow
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
                  > > bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Your logic still doesn't work. There is a certain amount of
                  > > dilution
                  > > > as you increase the population size. It is more appropriate to
                  > > > compare another school system of HoCo's size to see if ther is
                  > more
                  > > > or less bureaucratic overload. MoCo may cut 80 bodies and then
                  > > bring
                  > > > poeple in from the field to cover (this is one of the tricks of
                  > the
                  > > > Reagan administration). Those psyc types that you mention are
                  > > > directly attributable to HoCo's decision to provide more services
                  > > to
                  > > > problematic kids. I eally could care less about your figures -
                  > name
                  > > > the central office types that you want to can. The greatest rate
                  > > of
                  > > > increase is in special ed, both at central office and in the
                  > budget
                  > > -
                  > > > who goes?
                  > > >
                  > > > You have one sup in each system - how to figure parts of a sup -
                  > > > meaningless stat. The number of central office bodies is still
                  > > > greater in MoCo - the solution to pollution is dilution.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "perlpubl" <Perlpubl@e...> wrote:
                  > > > > Bob,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'm not sure why you think Montgomery County's area supervisors
                  > > are
                  > > > > not being counted - they are. I have avoided using anecdotal
                  > > > > evidence
                  > > > > and I am working with the raw numbers - here they are from the
                  > > > > Performance Audit and the Maryland State Department of
                  > Education.
                  > >
                  > > > > Remember,these numbers were before we added our Assoc. Supts.
                  > and
                  > > > > Montgomery announced they were reducing their central office
                  > > staff
                  > > > by
                  > > > > 80 people.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Total Students:
                  > > > > Montgomery: 134,000
                  > > > > Howard: 45,000
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Superintendents, deputy, associate, and assistant
                  > superintendents.
                  > > > > Montgomery 14, staff per 1000 students = .10
                  > > > > Howard 4, staff per 1000 students = .09
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Directors, coordinators, supervisors, and central office
                  > > > > administrators.
                  > > > > Montgomery 141, staff per 1000 students = 1.05
                  > > > > Howard 80.5, staff per 1000 students = 1.79
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Psychological personnel
                  > > > > Montgomery 80.6, staff per 1000 students = .60
                  > > > > Howard 46.8, staff per 1000 students = 1.04
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Barry Tevelow
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In howardpubliced@y..., "bobrosebrough21045" <
                  > > > > bobrosebrough21045@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > > The problem with comparing the two counties is that MoCo has
                  > > area
                  > > > > > supervisors that do not count against the figure for central
                  > > > > office.
                  > > > > > These supervisors have staff that don't count against the
                  > > cental
                  > > > > > office, either.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I have broken down some of these positions and have found
                  > that
                  > > > this
                  > > > > > bureaucratic overload that you are fond of pilloring can be
                  > > > > > attributed to complying directly or indirectly with IDEA or
                  > > other
                  > > > > > programs for problematic kids. For example, when requested,
                  > > the
                  > > > > > HCPSS must assemble a team to assess special ed needs for a
                  > kid
                  > > > and
                  > > > > > this assessment must be done within 90 days. Every day, the
                  > > DSM
                  > > > IV
                  > > > > > expands to include more categories of kids that the HCPSS are
                  > > > > require
                  > > > > > to provide services for. These folks are part of that
                  > > > bureaucratic
                  > > > > > overload that you are fond of skewering. What would you do
                  > with
                  > > a
                  > > > > > prego teen not old enough to be out of school? HoCo does
                  > > provide
                  > > > > > services for that kid out of the Central Office (Fram oil
                  > > filter
                  > > > > > commerical - pay me or pay me later).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Because of the special ed programs in HCPSS, there is a mini
                  > > > influx
                  > > > > > from your vaunted MoCo by parents seeking those services
                  > > provided
                  > > > > by
                  > > > > > that dreaded central office
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 180 slots directly or indirectly involved with problematic
                  > kids.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTION (2)
                  > > > > > ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS (2)
                  > > > > > ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TEAM (9)
                  > > > > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER (Faulkner Ridge) -
                  > > Speech/Reading/Vision
                  > > > > (14)
                  > > > > > HEALTH EDUCATION (3)
                  > > > > > HOME INSTRUCTION (2)
                  > > > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION AND STUDENT SERVICES (2)
                  > > > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION (11)
                  > > > > > SPECIAL EDUCATION SUPPORT @ FAULKNER RIDGE (17)
                  > > > > > VISION/HEARING PROGRAM (11)
                  > > > > > ACADEMIC INTERVENTION (1)
                  > > > > > ACADEMIC SUPPORT SERVICES (8)
                  > > > > > COUNTY DIAGNOSTIC CENTER - Psychologists (9)
                  > > > > > DISABILITY AWARENESS PROJECT (1)
                  > > > > > EARLY INTERVENTION SERVICES (9)
                  > > > > > FAMILY SUPPORT & RESOURCE CTR. (FAULKNER RIDGE) (3)
                  > > > > > GUIDANCE AND COUNSELING (2)
                  > > > > > HOME AND HOSPITAL SERVICES (2)
                  > > > > > PSYCHOLOGICAL SERVICES (59)
                  > > > > > PUPIL PERSONNEL SERVICES (2)
                  > > > > > PUPIL PERSONNEL WORKERS @ ARL (18)
                  > > > > > STUDENT SERVICES (2)
                  > > > > > TEEN PARENTING AND OUTREACH (1)
                • wideawakek
                  On one of my walks through central office, I noticed a computer on every desk with a printer very near by. A typical office setup, yes. But classroom and
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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                    On one of my walks through central office, I noticed a computer on
                    every desk with a printer very near by. A typical office setup,
                    yes. But classroom and learning should be funded first. While
                    learning has yet to be fully funded in Howard County, Central Office
                    has been.

                    Special ed in Howard County - are kids well served? Not learning
                    disabled students. Montgomery Co does a better job. They even have
                    a special school for bright dyslexic students - a model school. Are
                    they perfect? No. But better.

                    I have heard that parents are some more severely disabled children
                    may say they are happy. From my discussions with parents, some are
                    and some aren't.

                    I will state that I am an expert in central office waste. The people
                    there and the things they do impact the classroom so little. There
                    are a few exceptions - I'm thinking of home and hospital teachers who
                    work out of central office, and I'm thinking of resource teachers
                    positioned in central office on limited appointments (three years or
                    so then back to the classroom they go).

                    Those teams that must be assembled often come from the teachers
                    already working with the kids. Throw in the school psychologist, the
                    guidance counselor, and an administrator. More severely disabled
                    kids may have some therapists involved.

                    My concern is that we have too many people who do not work with
                    students on a regular basis. Anyone working for the system, with the
                    exception of secretarial staff, should regularly work with students.
                    I'll give a few exceptions - cleaning staff and a few others - but
                    overall, taxpayers are paying for too many HCPSS jobs that don't
                    benefit students.

                    -- KL
                  • Allen Dyer
                    ... From: wideawakek Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: Central Office Staff - ain t so simple ... kristine, i wonder if maybe the secretarial
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: wideawakek <WideawakeK@...>
                      Subject: [howardpubliced] Re: Central Office Staff - ain't so simple


                      > ...
                      > My concern is that we have too many people who do not work with
                      > students on a regular basis. Anyone working for the system, with the
                      > exception of secretarial staff, should regularly work with students.
                      > I'll give a few exceptions - cleaning staff and a few others - but
                      > overall, taxpayers are paying for too many HCPSS jobs that don't
                      > benefit students.
                      >
                      > -- KL
                      >
                      kristine,

                      i wonder if maybe the secretarial and custodian staff should also
                      work w/ students. a lot of my clients are law offices and quite
                      a few of the senior partners (sorry, no names today) could have
                      benefited from a little association early on with the duties and
                      responsibilities of secretaries.

                      allen
                    • joan_pontius
                      ... also ... have ... My memories definitely include the custodial staff. Mr Fisher helped us clear our lunch trays in elementary school, and in 5th grade,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 1, 2002
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                        --- In howardpubliced@y..., "Allen Dyer" <aldyer@l...> wrote:

                        > i wonder if maybe the secretarial and custodian staff should
                        also
                        > work w/ students. a lot of my clients are law offices and quite
                        > a few of the senior partners (sorry, no names today) could
                        have
                        > benefited from a little association early on with the duties and
                        > responsibilities of secretaries.
                        >
                        > allen



                        My memories definitely include the custodial
                        staff. Mr Fisher helped us clear our lunch trays in
                        elementary school, and in 5th grade,
                        when I was on lunch duty
                        and cleaning tables with another student who
                        teased me, Mr.Fisher gave me the go-ahead
                        to throw a wet sponge at him. Quite a different
                        perspective from my teacher, who, when she
                        found out, took me out in the hall and chewed
                        me out and wouldn't let me help in the cafetreria
                        anymore. When Mr.Fisher died,
                        we took up a collection in his name to
                        buy a display case for the hallway.

                        I forget the name of the custodian
                        in Jr. High who had to clean up a mess
                        I made; I had vomitted while watching
                        a Holocaust movie in history class. Everyone
                        was disgusted with me, but his response was
                        "Oh that's nothing, it's a small one!"

                        Things like that make someone hard to forget.

                        :-)
                      • meyers.rm
                        I taught in Baltimore County in the 80 s. My impression was that the central office there was chock full of people who ran away from the classroom. And those
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 2, 2002
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                          I taught in Baltimore County in the 80's. My impression was that the
                          central office there was chock full of people who ran away from the
                          classroom. And those were the people telling classroom teachers how
                          to do their jobs.

                          Jeff
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