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Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

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  • Jason Axelson
    Hi Daniel, That s great news. Is there any way we can subscribe to a calendar invitation for the Oahu Coders meetup? The calendar just seems to be pretty
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 16, 2010
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      Hi Daniel,

      That's great news. Is there any way we can subscribe to a calendar invitation for the Oahu Coders meetup? The calendar just seems to be pretty general and I don't see any way to get notifications about new events on the calendar.

      I know Ryan Kanno wanted to do a coders meetup but I think he's been too busy with civil beat.

      Thanks,
      Jason

      On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Daniel Leuck <dan@...> wrote:


      Hi Guys,

      We are combining our meetings (UX, mobile, etc.) into a regular Oahu Coders meetup that will be regular. We are going to rotate meetings so both downtown and Manoa area people can participate. John Wang (cc:ed) came up with the idea to do this so we promptly punished him by asking him to coordinate :-) The meetings are going to be scheduled in the TechHui calendar.

      Dan



      On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 11:21 AM, J. David Beutel <jdb@...> wrote:
       

      I think the point of this group was the meetings, but since Sam went
      back to the UK, nobody is organizing. Is there anyone who wants to
      present? Seth and Anthony have also left, and Dan has organized some
      other meetings at MIC (for UX, mobile, etc, via TechHui).

      I'm starting to use Groovy & Grails now, with a variety of other stuff.
      I'm excited about that, but don't know it well enough to give a
      presentation.

      The long presentation format is daunting. Manoa Geeks used 5-minute
      lightning talks, which provide more variety and a lower threshold, but
      that's not enough time to get into real coding. I think it's best to
      have a combination: a main presentation/topic, and a few lightning
      talks and unstructured discussions (which could lead to a future
      presentation).

      Anyway, I'm still at UH, so I'd come to meetings here. I don't know how
      many coders are interested, though. It seemed like some of the students
      were coming for the pizza. Since we're in the last 4 weeks of the
      semester, it's getting busy now, too.

      There's also Burt's monthly Bytemarks Lunch (not very technical) and
      yearly Unconferenz.

      Cheers,
      11011011



      On 2010-11-16 08:25 , piikoicoder wrote:
      > Hi All,
      >
      > I guess this group is dead.
      >
      > Did it migrate somewhere else ... or just burn out?
      >
      > George




      --
      Daniel Leuck
      President
      Ikayzo, inc.
      Design * Build * Localize
      +1 (808) 539-3804 (US Direct)
      +1 (808) 393-9119 (US Mobile)
      +81 090.7016.6635 (Japan Mobile)
      +1 (808) 591-1496 (Fax)
      http://ikayzo.com
      http://facebook.com/ikayzo
      http://twitter.com/dleuck



    • Daniel Leuck
      Hey Jason, The Aloha.rb meetup coordinated by John Wang, UX meetup being rebooted by Scott Murphy, mobile meetup and others are normally scheduled in the
      Message 2 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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        Hey Jason,

        The Aloha.rb meetup coordinated by John Wang, UX meetup being rebooted by Scott Murphy, mobile meetup and others are normally scheduled in the TechHui calendar with an email reminder going to the associated groups (http://www.techhui.com/groups) We try to target the emails to the appropriate interest group so as not to be spammy. The calendar (http://www.techhui.com/events) also has an RSS feed.

        The last Aloha.rb group had good attendance (around 15 people), which was nice to see after a long lull.

        If Ryan wants to lead Oahu Coders all the better. He is welcome to our facilities.

        Best,
        Dan

        On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Jason Axelson <bostonvaulter@...> wrote:
         

        Hi Daniel,


        That's great news. Is there any way we can subscribe to a calendar invitation for the Oahu Coders meetup? The calendar just seems to be pretty general and I don't see any way to get notifications about new events on the calendar.

        I know Ryan Kanno wanted to do a coders meetup but I think he's been too busy with civil beat.

        Thanks,
        Jason

        On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Daniel Leuck <dan@...> wrote:


        Hi Guys,

        We are combining our meetings (UX, mobile, etc.) into a regular Oahu Coders meetup that will be regular. We are going to rotate meetings so both downtown and Manoa area people can participate. John Wang (cc:ed) came up with the idea to do this so we promptly punished him by asking him to coordinate :-) The meetings are going to be scheduled in the TechHui calendar.

        Dan



        On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 11:21 AM, J. David Beutel <jdb@...> wrote:
         

        I think the point of this group was the meetings, but since Sam went
        back to the UK, nobody is organizing. Is there anyone who wants to
        present? Seth and Anthony have also left, and Dan has organized some
        other meetings at MIC (for UX, mobile, etc, via TechHui).

        I'm starting to use Groovy & Grails now, with a variety of other stuff.
        I'm excited about that, but don't know it well enough to give a
        presentation.

        The long presentation format is daunting. Manoa Geeks used 5-minute
        lightning talks, which provide more variety and a lower threshold, but
        that's not enough time to get into real coding. I think it's best to
        have a combination: a main presentation/topic, and a few lightning
        talks and unstructured discussions (which could lead to a future
        presentation).

        Anyway, I'm still at UH, so I'd come to meetings here. I don't know how
        many coders are interested, though. It seemed like some of the students
        were coming for the pizza. Since we're in the last 4 weeks of the
        semester, it's getting busy now, too.

        There's also Burt's monthly Bytemarks Lunch (not very technical) and
        yearly Unconferenz.

        Cheers,
        11011011



        On 2010-11-16 08:25 , piikoicoder wrote:
        > Hi All,
        >
        > I guess this group is dead.
        >
        > Did it migrate somewhere else ... or just burn out?
        >
        > George




        --
        Daniel Leuck
        President
        Ikayzo, inc.
        Design * Build * Localize
        +1 (808) 539-3804 (US Direct)
        +1 (808) 393-9119 (US Mobile)
        +81 090.7016.6635 (Japan Mobile)
        +1 (808) 591-1496 (Fax)
        http://ikayzo.com
        http://facebook.com/ikayzo
        http://twitter.com/dleuck






        --
        Daniel Leuck
        President
        Ikayzo, inc.
        Design * Build * Localize
        +1 (808) 539-3804 (US Direct)
        +1 (808) 393-9119 (US Mobile)
        +81 090.7016.6635 (Japan Mobile)
        +1 (808) 591-1496 (Fax)
        http://ikayzo.com
        http://facebook.com/ikayzo
        http://twitter.com/dleuck
      • G
        Hi All, If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick sketch of how these things fit together you d have a friend forever. I know there is a
        Message 3 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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          Hi All,

           

          If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick sketch of how these things fit together you’d have a friend forever.

           

          I know there is a Yahoo group = “Honolulu Coders”.  That’s where I posted the “Anyone Alive Out There” question that has spawned a number of emails in return.

           

          I know David Leuck is a member of the Yahoo’s “Honolulu Coders” and also maintains TechHui distinctly separate from Yahoo.

           

          The last email I received in the “Anyone Still Alive Out There” string came from David, and it referred to another group -- “Aloha.rb” – and TechHui seems to showcase a number of “groups”.

           

          --  Does TechHui provide a platform for its own “groups”, or does it just provide a summary of Yahoo groups of interest to its members?  Or something else?

          -- Depending on the answer to the prior question, is Aloha.rb a Yahoo Group, or TechHui group, or ... well ... something else?

           

          Would anyone care to suggest which group a person should try to follow if his primary interest is in enterprise level java (Glassfish, etc.)?

           

          Sorry ... but most of the emails I read seem written for inside ball players (which the leaders of all the groups might consider is tends to limit the size of their groups to their current members.)

           

          Thanks,

          George

           

        • J. David Beutel
          Who could pass up having a friend forever? I ll attempt a quick sketch. But first, a correction: it s Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui site. Sam
          Message 4 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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            Who could pass up having a friend forever?  I'll attempt a quick sketch.  But first, a correction:  it's Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui site.

            Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu Coders" to broaden it from Java to Ruby on Rails (and other interests).  It was a programming users group that met monthly or so to see a presentation (typically something you might want to use in development).  Later, Sam attempted a Rails workshop in the second half for hands-on coding.  Unfortunately the presentations take a lot of effort to prepare, and most of the instigators have moved away (Sam, Seth, Anthony, etc).  The Yahoo group is basically a mailing list to organize the meetings.  There may still be a "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in.  Some meetings have also been held downtown at Camber Corp when Seth and Anthony were working there.

            A few years ago, Sam became too busy to continue organizing those meetings.  Dan seems to have stepped up and started a few user groups with more focus, like Aloha.rb.  It's a delicate balance, focusing on a topic of interest, but not narrowing below a critical mass of participants.  The whole point of local groups, I think, is to meet in real life, for show & tell, and real-time interaction.  The Aloha.rb and UX groups are organizing on TechHui and meeting in the Manoa Innovation Center.  On the other hand, for asynchronous resources, such as mailing lists, online forums, blog posts, or articles, I would look globally.

            Another nice meeting locally was Manoa Geeks (started by Aaron?  who has also moved away, but inherited by Ryan Ozawa, and somewhat dormant now), or now the Bytemarks Lunch (by Burt Lum, somewhat like his Unconferenz).  There's also the long-running Cyberpizza at Manoa.  However, all these aren't specifically for coders, just techies in general (e.g., social media, web design, networks, SEO, etc).

            I don't know what local group to suggest for enterprise level Java, anymore.  I think that a lot of the programmers who go to user group meetings are starting to learn about other stuff now.  For example, I'm getting into Groovy & Grails, which is kind of an extension of enterprise Java, since it uses Hibernate and Spring.

            Cheers,
            11011011

            On 2011-05-03 09:16 , G wrote:

            Hi All,

             

            If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick sketch of how these things fit together you’d have a friend forever.

             

            I know there is a Yahoo group = “Honolulu Coders”.  That’s where I posted the “Anyone Alive Out There” question that has spawned a number of emails in return.

             

            I know David Leuck is a member of the Yahoo’s “Honolulu Coders” and also maintains TechHui distinctly separate from Yahoo.

             

            The last email I received in the “Anyone Still Alive Out There” string came from David, and it referred to another group -- “Aloha.rb” – and TechHui seems to showcase a number of “groups”.

             

            --  Does TechHui provide a platform for its own “groups”, or does it just provide a summary of Yahoo groups of interest to its members?  Or something else?

            -- Depending on the answer to the prior question, is Aloha.rb a Yahoo Group, or TechHui group, or ... well ... something else?

             

            Would anyone care to suggest which group a person should try to follow if his primary interest is in enterprise level java (Glassfish, etc.)?

             

            Sorry ... but most of the emails I read seem written for inside ball players (which the leaders of all the groups might consider is tends to limit the size of their groups to their current members.)

             

            Thanks,

            George

             


          • G
            Hi David, Thank you friend forever. I truly appreciate the time you gave me. Hope someday I can repay it. George
            Message 5 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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              Hi David,

               

              Thank you friend forever.

               

              I truly appreciate the time you gave me.  Hope someday I can repay it.

               

              George

            • Daniel Leuck
              Hey Guys, Just to add to David s detailed history - John Wang really deserves the credit for rebooting Aloha.rb. I just provide some promotion on TechHui. The
              Message 6 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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                Hey Guys,

                Just to add to David's detailed history - John Wang really deserves the credit for rebooting Aloha.rb. I just provide some promotion on TechHui. The .NET users group run by Michael Fors meets pretty regularly. The Eclipse users group used to have a lot of Java discussions but it hasn't met in a long time.

                I was going to start a Java / Groovy group but I just don't have the bandwidth because of all the other things we do (the other groups, TechHui, etc.) I've been hoping someone would step up to do this. We are willing to provide the venue and I'm happy to be a speaker once in a while. I've found regular meetings are important for attendance (e.g. the first wed of every month.)

                re: organizing groups

                TechHui has its own group management system with membership, forums, etc. There are currently 139 groups.

                  Browsing groups: http://www.techhui.com/groups
                  Creating a group: http://www.techhui.com/groups

                The calendar is free for everyone to use and it makes it easy for us to help people promote meetups: http://www.techhui.com/events

                > On the other hand, for
                asynchronous resources, such as mailing lists, online forums, blog posts, or articles,
                > I would look globally.

                I can see this for mailing lists, but if you are trying to stir conversation with local techies on blog posts, forums, etc. TechHui's membership size and traffic can be very helpful.

                Best,
                Dan

                On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:59 AM, J. David Beutel <jdb@...> wrote:
                 

                Who could pass up having a friend forever?  I'll attempt a quick sketch.  But first, a correction:  it's Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui site.

                Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu Coders" to broaden it from Java to Ruby on Rails (and other interests).  It was a programming users group that met monthly or so to see a presentation (typically something you might want to use in development).  Later, Sam attempted a Rails workshop in the second half for hands-on coding.  Unfortunately the presentations take a lot of effort to prepare, and most of the instigators have moved away (Sam, Seth, Anthony, etc).  The Yahoo group is basically a mailing list to organize the meetings.  There may still be a "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in.  Some meetings have also been held downtown at Camber Corp when Seth and Anthony were working there.

                A few years ago, Sam became too busy to continue organizing those meetings.  Dan seems to have stepped up and started a few user groups with more focus, like Aloha.rb.  It's a delicate balance, focusing on a topic of interest, but not narrowing below a critical mass of participants.  The whole point of local groups, I think, is to meet in real life, for show & tell, and real-time interaction.  The Aloha.rb and UX groups are organizing on TechHui and meeting in the Manoa Innovation Center.  On the other hand, for asynchronous resources, such as mailing lists, online forums, blog posts, or articles, I would look globally.

                Another nice meeting locally was Manoa Geeks (started by Aaron?  who has also moved away, but inherited by Ryan Ozawa, and somewhat dormant now), or now the Bytemarks Lunch (by Burt Lum, somewhat like his Unconferenz).  There's also the long-running Cyberpizza at Manoa.  However, all these aren't specifically for coders, just techies in general (e.g., social media, web design, networks, SEO, etc).

                I don't know what local group to suggest for enterprise level Java, anymore.  I think that a lot of the programmers who go to user group meetings are starting to learn about other stuff now.  For example, I'm getting into Groovy & Grails, which is kind of an extension of enterprise Java, since it uses Hibernate and Spring.

                Cheers,
                11011011



                On 2011-05-03 09:16 , G wrote:

                Hi All,

                 

                If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick sketch of how these things fit together you’d have a friend forever.

                 

                I know there is a Yahoo group = “Honolulu Coders”.  That’s where I posted the “Anyone Alive Out There” question that has spawned a number of emails in return.

                 

                I know David Leuck is a member of the Yahoo’s “Honolulu Coders” and also maintains TechHui distinctly separate from Yahoo.

                 

                The last email I received in the “Anyone Still Alive Out There” string came from David, and it referred to another group -- “Aloha.rb” – and TechHui seems to showcase a number of “groups”.

                 

                --  Does TechHui provide a platform for its own “groups”, or does it just provide a summary of Yahoo groups of interest to its members?  Or something else?

                -- Depending on the answer to the prior question, is Aloha.rb a Yahoo Group, or TechHui group, or ... well ... something else?

                 

                Would anyone care to suggest which group a person should try to follow if his primary interest is in enterprise level java (Glassfish, etc.)?

                 

                Sorry ... but most of the emails I read seem written for inside ball players (which the leaders of all the groups might consider is tends to limit the size of their groups to their current members.)

                 

                Thanks,

                George

                 



              • Robert S Brewer
                ... Keeping a UH student Registered Independent Organization alive requires yearly paperwork, so I don t think there is any Honolulu Coders group alive at UH
                Message 7 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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                  On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:59 AM, J. David Beutel <jdb@...> wrote:

                  Who could pass up having a friend forever?  I'll attempt a quick sketch.  But first, a correction:  it's Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui site.

                  Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu Coders" to broaden it from Java to Ruby on Rails (and other interests).  It was a programming users group that met monthly or so to see a presentation (typically something you might want to use in development).  Later, Sam attempted a Rails workshop in the second half for hands-on coding.  Unfortunately the presentations take a lot of effort to prepare, and most of the instigators have moved away (Sam, Seth, Anthony, etc).  The Yahoo group is basically a mailing list to organize the meetings.  There may still be a "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in.  Some meetings have also been held downtown at Camber Corp when Seth and Anthony were working there.

                  Keeping a UH student Registered Independent Organization alive requires yearly paperwork, so I don't think there is any Honolulu Coders group alive at UH since Sam had to step away from it (3 boys will do that to you).
                   
                  --
                  Robert Brewer
                  http://excitedcuriosity.wordpress.com/
                • J. David Beutel
                  ... Thanks for pointing that out. It was years ago, so it must have expired by now.
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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                    On 2011-05-03 12:14 , Robert S Brewer wrote:
                    On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:59 AM, J. David Beutel <jdb@...> wrote:

                    There may still be a "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in.

                    Keeping a UH student Registered Independent Organization alive requires yearly paperwork, so I don't think there is any Honolulu Coders group alive at UH since Sam had to step away from it (3 boys will do that to you).

                    Thanks for pointing that out.  It was years ago, so it must have expired by now.
                  • Ralph Freese
                    ... Yes, revived. It (HJUG) was started by Philip Johnson just after Java was released. To give you an idea of how early this was, at one of the first meetings
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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                      > Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu

                      Yes, revived. It (HJUG) was started by Philip Johnson just after Java was
                      released. To give you an idea of how early this was, at one of the first
                      meetings Philip brought a help wanted ad that read

                      Wanted: Experienced Java Programmer. *MUST HAVE* at least 2 months
                      experience.

                      I am the oldest (in both senses) member. And, I think, the only amateur.

                      Ralph


                      On Tue, 3 May 2011, J. David Beutel wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Who could pass up having a friend forever?  I'll attempt a quick sketch. 
                      > But first, a correction:  it's Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui
                      > site.
                      >
                      > Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu
                      > Coders" to broaden it from Java to Ruby on Rails (and other interests).  It
                      > was a programming users group that met monthly or so to see a presentation
                      > (typically something you might want to use in development).  Later, Sam
                      > attempted a Rails workshop in the second half for hands-on coding. 
                      > Unfortunately the presentations take a lot of effort to prepare, and most of
                      > the instigators have moved away (Sam, Seth, Anthony, etc).  The Yahoo group
                      > is basically a mailing list to organize the meetings.  There may still be a
                      > "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a
                      > sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in. 
                      > Some meetings have also been held downtown at Camber Corp when Seth and
                      > Anthony were working there.
                      >
                      > A few years ago, Sam became too busy to continue organizing those meetings. 
                      > Dan seems to have stepped up and started a few user groups with more focus,
                      > like Aloha.rb.  It's a delicate balance, focusing on a topic of interest,
                      > but not narrowing below a critical mass of participants.  The whole point of
                      > local groups, I think, is to meet in real life, for show & tell, and
                      > real-time interaction.  The Aloha.rb and UX groups are organizing on TechHui
                      > and meeting in the Manoa Innovation Center.  On the other hand, for
                      > asynchronous resources, such as mailing lists, online forums, blog posts, or
                      > articles, I would look globally.
                      >
                      > Another nice meeting locally was Manoa Geeks (started by Aaron?  who has
                      > also moved away, but inherited by Ryan Ozawa, and somewhat dormant now), or
                      > now the Bytemarks Lunch (by Burt Lum, somewhat like his Unconferenz). 
                      > There's also the long-running Cyberpizza at Manoa.  However, all these
                      > aren't specifically for coders, just techies in general (e.g., social media,
                      > web design, networks, SEO, etc).
                      >
                      > I don't know what local group to suggest for enterprise level Java,
                      > anymore.  I think that a lot of the programmers who go to user group
                      > meetings are starting to learn about other stuff now.  For example, I'm
                      > getting into Groovy & Grails, which is kind of an extension of enterprise
                      > Java, since it uses Hibernate and Spring.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > 11011011
                      >
                      > On 2011-05-03 09:16 , G wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi All,
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick
                      > sketch of how these things fit together you’d have a friend
                      > forever.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > I know there is a Yahoo group = “Honolulu Coders”.  That’s where
                      > I posted the “Anyone Alive Out There” question that has spawned
                      > a number of emails in return.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > I know David Leuck is a member of the Yahoo’s “Honolulu Coders”
                      > and also maintains TechHui distinctly separate from Yahoo.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > The last email I received in the “Anyone Still Alive Out There”
                      > string came from David, and it referred to another group --
                      > “Aloha.rb” – and TechHui seems to showcase a number of “groups”.
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > --  Does TechHui provide a platform for its own “groups”, or
                      > does it just provide a summary of Yahoo groups of interest to
                      > its members?  Or something else?
                      >
                      > -- Depending on the answer to the prior question, is Aloha.rb a
                      > Yahoo Group, or TechHui group, or ... well ... something else?
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Would anyone care to suggest which group a person should try to
                      > follow if his primary interest is in enterprise level java
                      > (Glassfish, etc.)?
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Sorry ... but most of the emails I read seem written for inside
                      > ball players (which the leaders of all the groups might consider
                      > is tends to limit the size of their groups to their current
                      > members.)
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > George
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Daniel Leuck
                      I remember those days back in 95. I first read about an experimental language being developed inside of Sun called Oak in 93. I learned how to write my first
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 3, 2011
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                        I remember those days back in '95. I first read about an experimental language being developed inside of Sun called Oak in 93. I learned how to write my first programs from Sun engineers posting on usenet. It was renamed Green and then Java before being release to the public in '95. I loved the language but I hated AWT - the Awful Windowing Toolkit.

                        Its hard to believe Java is 16 years old (20 if you go back to the first Oak compiler and runtime created in '91.)

                        On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Ralph Freese <ralph@...> wrote:
                         


                        > Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu

                        Yes, revived. It (HJUG) was started by Philip Johnson just after Java was
                        released. To give you an idea of how early this was, at one of the first
                        meetings Philip brought a help wanted ad that read

                        Wanted: Experienced Java Programmer. *MUST HAVE* at least 2 months
                        experience.

                        I am the oldest (in both senses) member. And, I think, the only amateur.

                        Ralph


                        On Tue, 3 May 2011, J. David Beutel wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Who could pass up having a friend forever?  I'll attempt a quick sketch. 
                        > But first, a correction:  it's Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui
                        > site.
                        >
                        > Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu
                        > Coders" to broaden it from Java to Ruby on Rails (and other interests).  It
                        > was a programming users group that met monthly or so to see a presentation
                        > (typically something you might want to use in development).  Later, Sam
                        > attempted a Rails workshop in the second half for hands-on coding. 
                        > Unfortunately the presentations take a lot of effort to prepare, and most of
                        > the instigators have moved away (Sam, Seth, Anthony, etc).  The Yahoo group
                        > is basically a mailing list to organize the meetings.  There may still be a
                        > "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a
                        > sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in. 
                        > Some meetings have also been held downtown at Camber Corp when Seth and
                        > Anthony were working there.
                        >
                        > A few years ago, Sam became too busy to continue organizing those meetings. 
                        > Dan seems to have stepped up and started a few user groups with more focus,
                        > like Aloha.rb.  It's a delicate balance, focusing on a topic of interest,
                        > but not narrowing below a critical mass of participants.  The whole point of
                        > local groups, I think, is to meet in real life, for show & tell, and
                        > real-time interaction.  The Aloha.rb and UX groups are organizing on TechHui
                        > and meeting in the Manoa Innovation Center.  On the other hand, for
                        > asynchronous resources, such as mailing lists, online forums, blog posts, or
                        > articles, I would look globally.
                        >
                        > Another nice meeting locally was Manoa Geeks (started by Aaron?  who has
                        > also moved away, but inherited by Ryan Ozawa, and somewhat dormant now), or
                        > now the Bytemarks Lunch (by Burt Lum, somewhat like his Unconferenz). 
                        > There's also the long-running Cyberpizza at Manoa.  However, all these
                        > aren't specifically for coders, just techies in general (e.g., social media,
                        > web design, networks, SEO, etc).
                        >
                        > I don't know what local group to suggest for enterprise level Java,
                        > anymore.  I think that a lot of the programmers who go to user group
                        > meetings are starting to learn about other stuff now.  For example, I'm
                        > getting into Groovy & Grails, which is kind of an extension of enterprise
                        > Java, since it uses Hibernate and Spring.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > 11011011
                        >
                        > On 2011-05-03 09:16 , G wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi All,
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick
                        > sketch of how these things fit together you’d have a friend
                        > forever.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > I know there is a Yahoo group = “Honolulu Coders”.  That’s where
                        > I posted the “Anyone Alive Out There” question that has spawned
                        > a number of emails in return.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > I know David Leuck is a member of the Yahoo’s “Honolulu Coders”
                        > and also maintains TechHui distinctly separate from Yahoo.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > The last email I received in the “Anyone Still Alive Out There”
                        > string came from David, and it referred to another group --
                        > “Aloha.rb” – and TechHui seems to showcase a number of “groups”.
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > --  Does TechHui provide a platform for its own “groups”, or
                        > does it just provide a summary of Yahoo groups of interest to
                        > its members?  Or something else?
                        >
                        > -- Depending on the answer to the prior question, is Aloha.rb a
                        > Yahoo Group, or TechHui group, or ... well ... something else?
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Would anyone care to suggest which group a person should try to
                        > follow if his primary interest is in enterprise level java
                        > (Glassfish, etc.)?
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Sorry ... but most of the emails I read seem written for inside
                        > ball players (which the leaders of all the groups might consider
                        > is tends to limit the size of their groups to their current
                        > members.)
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > George
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                      • Jim Thompson
                        Hi Daniel, Java was never named Green that I know of. It was put into Project Green , which became First Person.
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 4, 2011
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                          Hi Daniel,

                          Java was never named Green that I know of.  It was put into "Project Green", which became First Person.

                          Java came from an idea Bill Joy initially called "C++ -- +="  Which he decoded as, "C++, minus a lot, plus a little".  The idea became "Further" (an obvious Kesey reference) using a 64-bit address space and the Spring kernel out of Sun Labs, before Gosling ran with it and created Oak.

                          One thing to remember is that when Java was being invented, Sun (the company) was younger than MacOS X is now.  There were raging turf battles all the time, and there are many versions of the same history.

                          Jim

                          On May 3, 2011, at 8:19 PM, Daniel Leuck wrote:

                           

                          I remember those days back in '95. I first read about an experimental language being developed inside of Sun called Oak in 93. I learned how to write my first programs from Sun engineers posting on usenet. It was renamed Green and then Java before being release to the public in '95. I loved the language but I hated AWT - the Awful Windowing Toolkit.

                          Its hard to believe Java is 16 years old (20 if you go back to the first Oak compiler and runtime created in '91.)

                          On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Ralph Freese <ralph@...> wrote:
                           


                          > Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu

                          Yes, revived. It (HJUG) was started by Philip Johnson just after Java was
                          released. To give you an idea of how early this was, at one of the first
                          meetings Philip brought a help wanted ad that read

                          Wanted: Experienced Java Programmer. *MUST HAVE* at least 2 months
                          experience.

                          I am the oldest (in both senses) member. And, I think, the only amateur.

                          Ralph


                          On Tue, 3 May 2011, J. David Beutel wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Who could pass up having a friend forever?  I'll attempt a quick sketch. 
                          > But first, a correction:  it's Dan Leuck, not David, who runs the TechHui
                          > site.
                          >
                          > Sam Joseph started (revived?) HJUG, and later renamed it to "Honolulu
                          > Coders" to broaden it from Java to Ruby on Rails (and other interests).  It
                          > was a programming users group that met monthly or so to see a presentation
                          > (typically something you might want to use in development).  Later, Sam
                          > attempted a Rails workshop in the second half for hands-on coding. 
                          > Unfortunately the presentations take a lot of effort to prepare, and most of
                          > the instigators have moved away (Sam, Seth, Anthony, etc).  The Yahoo group
                          > is basically a mailing list to organize the meetings.  There may still be a
                          > "Honolulu Coders" student organization at UH Manoa, which just enables a
                          > sponsor to borrow a room (traditionally POST 302) to have the meetings in. 
                          > Some meetings have also been held downtown at Camber Corp when Seth and
                          > Anthony were working there.
                          >
                          > A few years ago, Sam became too busy to continue organizing those meetings. 
                          > Dan seems to have stepped up and started a few user groups with more focus,
                          > like Aloha.rb.  It's a delicate balance, focusing on a topic of interest,
                          > but not narrowing below a critical mass of participants.  The whole point of
                          > local groups, I think, is to meet in real life, for show & tell, and
                          > real-time interaction.  The Aloha.rb and UX groups are organizing on TechHui
                          > and meeting in the Manoa Innovation Center.  On the other hand, for
                          > asynchronous resources, such as mailing lists, online forums, blog posts, or
                          > articles, I would look globally.
                          >
                          > Another nice meeting locally was Manoa Geeks (started by Aaron?  who has
                          > also moved away, but inherited by Ryan Ozawa, and somewhat dormant now), or
                          > now the Bytemarks Lunch (by Burt Lum, somewhat like his Unconferenz). 
                          > There's also the long-running Cyberpizza at Manoa.  However, all these
                          > aren't specifically for coders, just techies in general (e.g., social media,
                          > web design, networks, SEO, etc).
                          >
                          > I don't know what local group to suggest for enterprise level Java,
                          > anymore.  I think that a lot of the programmers who go to user group
                          > meetings are starting to learn about other stuff now.  For example, I'm
                          > getting into Groovy & Grails, which is kind of an extension of enterprise
                          > Java, since it uses Hibernate and Spring.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > 11011011
                          >
                          > On 2011-05-03 09:16 , G wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi All,
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > If anyone out there has time and pity enough to provide a quick
                          > sketch of how these things fit together you’d have a friend
                          > forever.
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > I know there is a Yahoo group = “Honolulu Coders”.  That’s where
                          > I posted the “Anyone Alive Out There” question that has spawned
                          > a number of emails in return.
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > I know David Leuck is a member of the Yahoo’s “Honolulu Coders”
                          > and also maintains TechHui distinctly separate from Yahoo.
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > The last email I received in the “Anyone Still Alive Out There”
                          > string came from David, and it referred to another group --
                          > “Aloha.rb” – and TechHui seems to showcase a number of “groups”.
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > --  Does TechHui provide a platform for its own “groups”, or
                          > does it just provide a summary of Yahoo groups of interest to
                          > its members?  Or something else?
                          >
                          > -- Depending on the answer to the prior question, is Aloha.rb a
                          > Yahoo Group, or TechHui group, or ... well ... something else?
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > Would anyone care to suggest which group a person should try to
                          > follow if his primary interest is in enterprise level java
                          > (Glassfish, etc.)?
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > Sorry ... but most of the emails I read seem written for inside
                          > ball players (which the leaders of all the groups might consider
                          > is tends to limit the size of their groups to their current
                          > members.)
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > George
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >





                        • Sam Joseph
                          ... Three young sons and a couple of industry grants :-) In principle Honolulu Coders could be revived at UH; talking to Philip Johnson or Robert Brewer might
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 4, 2011
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                            On 5/3/11 11:14 PM, Robert S Brewer wrote: Keeping a UH student Registered Independent Organization alive requires yearly paperwork, so I don't think there is any Honolulu Coders group alive at UH since Sam had to step away from it (3 boys will do that to you).
                            Three young sons and a couple of industry grants :-)

                            In principle Honolulu Coders could be revived at UH; talking to Philip Johnson or Robert Brewer might be a good way to start, but the main value was having the POST 309 for meetings.  I'm not in Hawaii anymore, but it sounds like there are other accessible venues now.

                            Thanks to all Honolulu Coders past, present and future.  I had a lot of fun with those meetings! :-)

                            CHEERS> SAM

                            -- 
                            Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                            Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                              http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                            Hawaii-Pacific University
                            ---
                            Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                            Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                              http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                            ---
                            Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                            Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                              http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                            
                            
                          • Sam Joseph
                            Talking of Java, Philip Johnson showed me this great talk by Guy Steele Jr on programming languages, in which he made some very interesting suggestions about
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 4, 2011
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                              Talking of Java, Philip Johnson showed me this great talk by Guy Steele
                              Jr on programming languages, in which he made some very interesting
                              suggestions about the future development of Java (back in 2000 or so).

                              In particular I think he was agitating for:

                              1) generic types
                              2) operator overloading
                              3) user defined types.

                              I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                              two, right?

                              http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8860158196198824415#

                              The transcript is here:

                              http://www.brics.dk/%7Ehosc/local/HOSC-12-3-pp221-236.pdf

                              The video is a little old with some blips, so for the best experience I
                              recommend reading the transcript in parallel with watching the talk.

                              CHEERS> SAM

                              --
                              Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                              Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                              http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                              Hawaii-Pacific University
                              ---
                              Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games?
                              Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011!
                              http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                              ---
                              Join the Cloud Revolution!
                              Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011!
                              http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                            • Daniel Leuck
                              Hi Jim, Java was never named Green that I know of. It was put into Project Green , ... I remember references to the Green platform very clearly, but they
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 4, 2011
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                                Hi Jim,

                                Java was never named Green that I know of.  It was put into "Project Green", which became First Person.

                                I remember references to the "Green platform" very clearly, but they could have been differentiating between the name of the platform (Green) and language (Oak.) Sun always had trouble with consistent naming :-)

                                Hi Sam,

                                Thank you for the good times at the NinJava group in Tokyo and Honolulu coders!

                                In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                1) generic types
                                2) operator overloading
                                3) user defined types.

                                I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                two, right?

                                Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.

                                Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.

                                User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)? Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.

                                My main current complaints with Java:
                                - No closures
                                - No language integrated query
                                - No language-level support for properties
                                - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)

                                Dan


                              • Sam Joseph
                                Hi Dan, ... Interesting. ... Right. Still haven t tried Groovy ... ... I think Guy Steele was ... That s good to know. ... I find that I can get replicate
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 5, 2011
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                                  Hi Dan,

                                  On 5/4/11 11:13 AM, Daniel Leuck wrote:
                                  In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                  1) generic types
                                  2) operator overloading
                                  3) user defined types.

                                  I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                  two, right?

                                  Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.
                                  Interesting.
                                  Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.
                                  Right.  Still haven't tried Groovy ...
                                  User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)?
                                  I think Guy Steele was
                                  Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.
                                  That's good to know.
                                  My main current complaints with Java:
                                  - No closures
                                  - No language integrated query
                                  - No language-level support for properties
                                  - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)
                                  I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                  CHEERS> SAM


                                  -- 
                                  Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                  Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                    http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                  Hawaii-Pacific University
                                  ---
                                  Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                  Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                    http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                  ---
                                  Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                  Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                    http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                  
                                  
                                • J. David Beutel
                                  ... They re not masochists? They might like Groovy better.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 5, 2011
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                                    On 2011-05-05 11:02 , Sam Joseph wrote:
                                      Still haven't tried Groovy ...

                                    I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                    They're not masochists?  They might like Groovy better.
                                  • G
                                    Hi All, Please see lack of closures below. In case anyone else would find it of interest, I think closure would be an interesting topic for a future
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 10, 2011
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                                      Hi All,

                                       

                                      Please see lack of “closures” below.

                                      In case anyone else would find it of interest, I think “closure” would be an interesting topic for a future meeting.

                                       

                                      George

                                       

                                      From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Joseph
                                      Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:02 AM
                                      To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                      Cc: Daniel Leuck; Jim Thompson
                                      Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                       

                                       

                                      Hi Dan,

                                      On 5/4/11 11:13 AM, Daniel Leuck wrote:

                                       

                                      In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                      1) generic types
                                      2) operator overloading
                                      3) user defined types.

                                      I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                      two, right?


                                      Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.

                                      Interesting.

                                      Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.

                                      Right.  Still haven't tried Groovy ...

                                      User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)?

                                      I think Guy Steele was

                                      Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.

                                      That's good to know.

                                      My main current complaints with Java:
                                      - No closures
                                      - No language integrated query
                                      - No language-level support for properties
                                      - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)

                                      I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                      CHEERS> SAM



                                      -- 
                                      Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                      Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                        http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                      Hawaii-Pacific University
                                      ---
                                      Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                      Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                        http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                      ---
                                      Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                      Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                        http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                        

                                    • Joseph Dane
                                      Hi George - What about closure is it that you think would make a good topic? Do you mean What is a closure? Or do you mean Why doesn t Java have
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 10, 2011
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                                        Hi George -

                                        What about "closure" is it that you think would make a good topic?  Do you mean "What is a closure?"  Or do you mean "Why doesn't Java have closures?"

                                        My recollection is that the word "closure" arose in the context of dynamic, LISP-like languages. My understanding (and I have no personal knowledge of this) is that variable scoping in early LISPs was "dynamic", i.e. a program could refer to variables living anywhere on the call stack, regardless of where the variable was defined/bound.  Sorta like "global" variables.  The problem was that when you defined a function you couldn't be sure that the variables you used in the body of the function wouldn't be clobbered by the time the function was called.  The solution was to "close" the function definition over the lexical scope of the function.

                                        For an early (but probably not the earliest) use of the term "closure", see page 21 in this 1978 Steele/Sussman paper:

                                          http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-453.pdf

                                        I was not there myself when all this happened (I was 8 when that paper was published), and the "discovery" of lexical scoping feels somewhat obvious ("this square wheel isn't working so well -- maybe we try a round one?"), but that's easy for us to say.  I suspect that uses of the term "closure" today refer to something closely related to, but not identical to, the original sense of the word. (For example, a Javaworld article says: "a closure is a block of code that can be passed as an argument to a function call" which I would consider a necessary but not a sufficient condition.) This makes it difficult to know just what someone means today when they talk about closures.

                                        Java doesn't have closures because it has classes, which serve some of the same purposes with respect to scoping.  Anonymous inner classes are sorta like a closure, but (as I recall) you've got to declare "final" all local variables in scope at the declaration of the class, which arguably defeats the purpose of using a closure (since a closure is supposed to have access to its lexical scope).  Also, the syntax is bulky and cumbersome, in keeping with Java's general tendencies in that regard.

                                        Has anyone done a Scala talk?  I'd be interested in that.  (And Scala has closures, or so I'm told.)

                                        On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 9:44 AM, G <g@...> wrote:


                                        Hi All,

                                         

                                        Please see lack of “closures” below.

                                        In case anyone else would find it of interest, I think “closure” would be an interesting topic for a future meeting.

                                         

                                        George

                                         

                                        From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Joseph
                                        Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:02 AM
                                        To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                        Cc: Daniel Leuck; Jim Thompson
                                        Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                         

                                         

                                        Hi Dan,

                                        On 5/4/11 11:13 AM, Daniel Leuck wrote:

                                         

                                        In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                        1) generic types
                                        2) operator overloading
                                        3) user defined types.

                                        I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                        two, right?


                                        Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.

                                        Interesting.

                                        Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.

                                        Right.  Still haven't tried Groovy ...

                                        User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)?

                                        I think Guy Steele was

                                        Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.

                                        That's good to know.

                                        My main current complaints with Java:
                                        - No closures
                                        - No language integrated query
                                        - No language-level support for properties
                                        - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)

                                        I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                        CHEERS> SAM



                                        -- 
                                        Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                        Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                          http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                        Hawaii-Pacific University
                                        ---
                                        Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                        Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                          http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                        ---
                                        Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                        Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                          http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                         






                                        --

                                        joe


                                      • Jim Thompson
                                        Holy Cow! That s the first time I ve seen the implementation of closures as fixing a bug in the language. Closures were first implemented in Scheme, not lisp.
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 10, 2011
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                                          Holy Cow!  That's the first time I've seen the implementation of closures as fixing a bug in the language. 

                                          Closures were first implemented in Scheme, not lisp. In Scheme, a closure is an object with one function; apply.

                                          Normally when I attempt to explain closures, I relate them to autonomous objects that don't polute the namespace.  Many programmers today have a familiarity with object-oriented programming (thank you Java), and teaching has been described as relating the known to the unknown. 

                                          In fact, one trite description of closures is, "Objects are poor man's closures. Closures are poor man's objects."

                                          In fact, here is a koan about that, as told by Guy Steele himself:

                                            The venerable master Qc Na was walking with his student, Anton.  Hoping to
                                          prompt the master into a discussion, Anton said "Master, I have heard that
                                          objects are a very good thing - is this true?"  Qc Na looked pityingly at
                                          his student and replied, "Foolish pupil - objects are merely a poor man's
                                          closures."
                                          
                                            Chastised, Anton took his leave from his master and returned to his cell,
                                          intent on studying closures.  He carefully read the entire "Lambda: The
                                          Ultimate..." series of papers and its cousins, and implemented a small
                                          Scheme interpreter with a closure-based object system.  He learned much, and
                                          looked forward to informing his master of his progress.
                                          
                                            On his next walk with Qc Na, Anton attempted to impress his master by
                                          saying "Master, I have diligently studied the matter, and now understand
                                          that objects are truly a poor man's closures."  Qc Na responded by hitting
                                          Anton with his stick, saying "When will you learn? Closures are a poor man's
                                          object."  At that moment, Anton became enlightened.
                                          Closures, continuations, monads, etc. are all interesting topics to me. 
                                          In-general, functional programming has many constructs that will never occur to a journeyman programmer who is attempting to keep his or her job.  

                                          I, for one, would be interested in a discussion or presentation on these topics, but less so on same covering the language de jour.  (But I am old(*), and set in my ways.)

                                          -- Jim
                                          * I turned 16 the month AI-453 was published, and yeah, that means I'm 49 (tomorrow!!). Ack phhhtph!

                                          On May 10, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Joseph Dane <jdane@...> wrote:

                                           

                                          Hi George -

                                          What about "closure" is it that you think would make a good topic?  Do you mean "What is a closure?"  Or do you mean "Why doesn't Java have closures?"

                                          My recollection is that the word "closure" arose in the context of dynamic, LISP-like languages. My understanding (and I have no personal knowledge of this) is that variable scoping in early LISPs was "dynamic", i.e. a program could refer to variables living anywhere on the call stack, regardless of where the variable was defined/bound.  Sorta like "global" variables.  The problem was that when you defined a function you couldn't be sure that the variables you used in the body of the function wouldn't be clobbered by the time the function was called.  The solution was to "close" the function definition over the lexical scope of the function.

                                          For an early (but probably not the earliest) use of the term "closure", see page 21 in this 1978 Steele/Sussman paper:

                                            http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-453.pdf

                                          I was not there myself when all this happened (I was 8 when that paper was published), and the "discovery" of lexical scoping feels somewhat obvious ("this square wheel isn't working so well -- maybe we try a round one?"), but that's easy for us to say.  I suspect that uses of the term "closure" today refer to something closely related to, but not identical to, the original sense of the word. (For example, a Javaworld article says: "a closure is a block of code that can be passed as an argument to a function call" which I would consider a necessary but not a sufficient condition.) This makes it difficult to know just what someone means today when they talk about closures.

                                          Java doesn't have closures because it has classes, which serve some of the same purposes with respect to scoping.  Anonymous inner classes are sorta like a closure, but (as I recall) you've got to declare "final" all local variables in scope at the declaration of the class, which arguably defeats the purpose of using a closure (since a closure is supposed to have access to its lexical scope).  Also, the syntax is bulky and cumbersome, in keeping with Java's general tendencies in that regard.

                                          Has anyone done a Scala talk?  I'd be interested in that.  (And Scala has closures, or so I'm told.)

                                          On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 9:44 AM, G <g@...> wrote:


                                          Hi All,

                                           

                                          Please see lack of “closures” below.

                                          In case anyone else would find it of interest, I think “closure” would be an interesting topic for a future meeting.

                                           

                                          George

                                           

                                          From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Joseph
                                          Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:02 AM
                                          To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                          Cc: Daniel Leuck; Jim Thompson
                                          Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                           

                                           

                                          Hi Dan,

                                          On 5/4/11 11:13 AM, Daniel Leuck wrote:

                                           

                                          In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                          1) generic types
                                          2) operator overloading
                                          3) user defined types.

                                          I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                          two, right?


                                          Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.

                                          Interesting.

                                          Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.

                                          Right.  Still haven't tried Groovy ...

                                          User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)?

                                          I think Guy Steele was

                                          Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.

                                          That's good to know.

                                          My main current complaints with Java:
                                          - No closures
                                          - No language integrated query
                                          - No language-level support for properties
                                          - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)

                                          I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                          CHEERS> SAM



                                          -- 
                                          Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                          Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                            http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                          Hawaii-Pacific University
                                          ---
                                          Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                          Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                            http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                          ---
                                          Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                          Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                            http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                           






                                          --

                                          joe


                                        • Sam Joseph
                                          ... Looks like Groovy doesn t run so well on android. Actually with Eclipse code completion I think anonymous inner classes get round the lack of closures
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 11, 2011
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                                            On 5/5/11 11:45 PM, J. David Beutel wrote:

                                            I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                            They're not masochists?  They might like Groovy better.
                                             
                                            Looks like Groovy doesn't run so well on android.

                                            Actually with Eclipse code completion I think anonymous inner classes get round the lack of closures pretty well.  I have yet to find anything I can't do with anonymous inner classes that specific closure support would enable ...

                                            CHEERS> SAM


                                            -- 
                                            Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                            Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                              http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                            Hawaii-Pacific University
                                            ---
                                            Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                            Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                              http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                            ---
                                            Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                            Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                              http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                            
                                            
                                          • G
                                            Hi Joseph, I was thinking more along the lines of a what topic. I first encountered closure in the context of JavaScript research, because JavaScript
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 11, 2011
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                                              Hi Joseph,

                                               

                                              I was thinking more along the lines of a “what” topic.

                                               

                                              I first encountered “closure” in the context of JavaScript research, because JavaScript drives me nutz trying to keep track of what the hell is my context at any given moment.

                                               

                                              Anyway, now “closure” is just one of those things that I end up figuring out how to “use” ... much as apes can learn which buttons to press to get the banana to come out of the little door ... but have never taken the time to go back and really “know” what they are.

                                               

                                              Sort of like being defeated for a long time by a Java interface’s lack of a constructor, static block, or methods, when I wanted to load one of the interfaces Collection members, like a HashTable, with  key:value pairs hard coded into the interface, or read from a file at run time. 

                                               

                                              Laughter is  ok up to a point ... is ok ... but for months I stupidly coding  just coded static values into a dummy classes as a substitute for putting them in an interface ...  before I figured out that extending HashTable as an anonymous class that is an argument of the “new” operator in the interface line I use to declare and define the HashTable member would work.    

                                               

                                              Hmmm ... now I wonder if that is a “closure” ... albeit JavaScript seems to define it differently.

                                               

                                              Oh well ... As I mentioned before, it often seem like email discussions at this group site tend  to be either

                                              -- someone promoting the latest flavor of higher level software to simplify a basic lower level programming, or

                                              --  like Jim’s “Holly Cow” email ... neat stuff from  an “insiders” perspective that is  pretty much opaque to “outsiders”... ummmm ... sorry, sorting out “poor man’s” objects from “poor man’s” closure is a bit too abstract for my “poor man’s self”.

                                               

                                              But while on that subject, I’m wondering if that ... too specific ... focus doesn’t narrows the interested group members  to ... well narrowly ... to be a base for meetings that are regularly or well  attended.   Hence the lack thereof.  Then again, everyone is too busy doing specific things no one has time for general stuff anymore.  Then again, I think it would be interesting to organize some general topics like JPA3 around a real – not just some quick and dirty example – group-built application.   (mini-open source ... very ...)

                                               

                                              Anyway, thanks for all references.  Soon as I get some “free time” I’ll get back to learning more about “closure”.

                                               

                                              Stay safe, Be well, Win stuff,

                                              glb

                                              From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Dane
                                              Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 1:55 PM
                                              To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                               

                                               

                                              Hi George -

                                              What about "closure" is it that you think would make a good topic?  Do you mean "What is a closure?"  Or do you mean "Why doesn't Java have closures?"

                                              My recollection is that the word "closure" arose in the context of dynamic, LISP-like languages. My understanding (and I have no personal knowledge of this) is that variable scoping in early LISPs was "dynamic", i.e. a program could refer to variables living anywhere on the call stack, regardless of where the variable was defined/bound.  Sorta like "global" variables.  The problem was that when you defined a function you couldn't be sure that the variables you used in the body of the function wouldn't be clobbered by the time the function was called.  The solution was to "close" the function definition over the lexical scope of the function.

                                              For an early (but probably not the earliest) use of the term "closure", see page 21 in this 1978 Steele/Sussman paper:

                                                http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-453.pdf

                                              I was not there myself when all this happened (I was 8 when that paper was published), and the "discovery" of lexical scoping feels somewhat obvious ("this square wheel isn't working so well -- maybe we try a round one?"), but that's easy for us to say.  I suspect that uses of the term "closure" today refer to something closely related to, but not identical to, the original sense of the word. (For example, a Javaworld article says: "a closure is a block of code that can be passed as an argument to a function call" which I would consider a necessary but not a sufficient condition.) This makes it difficult to know just what someone means today when they talk about closures.

                                              Java doesn't have closures because it has classes, which serve some of the same purposes with respect to scoping.  Anonymous inner classes are sorta like a closure, but (as I recall) you've got to declare "final" all local variables in scope at the declaration of the class, which arguably defeats the purpose of using a closure (since a closure is supposed to have access to its lexical scope).  Also, the syntax is bulky and cumbersome, in keeping with Java's general tendencies in that regard.

                                              Has anyone done a Scala talk?  I'd be interested in that.  (And Scala has closures, or so I'm told.)

                                              On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 9:44 AM, G <g@...> wrote:

                                               

                                              Hi All,

                                               

                                              Please see lack of “closures” below.

                                              In case anyone else would find it of interest, I think “closure” would be an interesting topic for a future meeting.

                                               

                                              George

                                               

                                              From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Joseph
                                              Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:02 AM
                                              To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                              Cc: Daniel Leuck; Jim Thompson
                                              Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                               

                                               

                                              Hi Dan,

                                              On 5/4/11 11:13 AM, Daniel Leuck wrote:

                                               

                                              In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                              1) generic types
                                              2) operator overloading
                                              3) user defined types.

                                              I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                              two, right?


                                              Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.

                                              Interesting.

                                              Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.

                                              Right.  Still haven't tried Groovy ...

                                              User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)?

                                              I think Guy Steele was

                                              Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.

                                              That's good to know.

                                              My main current complaints with Java:
                                              - No closures
                                              - No language integrated query
                                              - No language-level support for properties
                                              - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)

                                              I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                              CHEERS> SAM


                                              -- 
                                              Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                              Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                                http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                              Hawaii-Pacific University
                                              ---
                                              Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                              Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                                http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                              ---
                                              Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                              Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                                http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                               

                                               




                                              --

                                              joe

                                            • Jim Thompson
                                              A closure is a block of code that can be represented as an object (or first-class data structure) and placed seamlessly into the flow of code by allowing
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 11, 2011
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                                                A closure is a block of code that can be represented as an object (or first-class data structure) and placed seamlessly into the flow of code by allowing references to its lexical scope. 

                                                var threshold = ComputeThreshold();
                                                var heavyTravellers = employeeList.FindAll(e => e.MilesOfCommute > threshold);

                                                You have a collection of objects and want to filter them in various ways.  Writing a method for each filter leads to duplication in the setup and processing of the filter. 

                                                By using a closure, you can factor the setup and processing of the filter and pass in an arbitrary block of code for each filter condition. 

                                                -- Jim

                                                On May 11, 2011, at 9:08 AM, "G" <g@...> wrote:

                                                 

                                                Hi Joseph,

                                                 

                                                I was thinking more along the lines of a “what” topic.

                                                 

                                                I first encountered “closure” in the context of JavaScript research, because JavaScript drives me nutz trying to keep track of what the hell is my context at any given moment.

                                                 

                                                Anyway, now “closure” is just one of those things that I end up figuring out how to “use” ... much as apes can learn which buttons to press to get the banana to come out of the little door ... but have never taken the time to go back and really “know” what they are.

                                                 

                                                Sort of like being defeated for a long time by a Java interface’s lack of a constructor, static block, or methods, when I wanted to load one of the interfaces Collection members, like a HashTable, with  key:value pairs hard coded into the interface, or read from a file at run time. 

                                                 

                                                Laughter is  ok up to a point ... is ok ... but for months I stupidly coding  just coded static values into a dummy classes as a substitute for putting them in an interface ...  before I figured out that extending HashTable as an anonymous class that is an argument of the “new” operator in the interface line I use to declare and define the HashTable member would work.    

                                                 

                                                Hmmm ... now I wonder if that is a “closure” ... albeit JavaScript seems to define it differently.

                                                 

                                                Oh well ... As I mentioned before, it often seem like email discussions at this group site tend  to be either

                                                -- someone promoting the latest flavor of higher level software to simplify a basic lower level programming, or

                                                --  like Jim’s “Holly Cow” email ... neat stuff from  an “insiders” perspective that is  pretty much opaque to “outsiders”... ummmm ... sorry, sorting out “poor man’s” objects from “poor man’s” closure is a bit too abstract for my “poor man’s self”.

                                                 

                                                But while on that subject, I’m wondering if that ... too specific ... focus doesn’t narrows the interested group members  to ... well narrowly ... to be a base for meetings that are regularly or well  attended.   Hence the lack thereof.  Then again, everyone is too busy doing specific things no one has time for general stuff anymore.  Then again, I think it would be interesting to organize some general topics like JPA3 around a real – not just some quick and dirty example – group-built application.   (mini-open source ... very ...)

                                                 

                                                Anyway, thanks for all references.  Soon as I get some “free time” I’ll get back to learning more about “closure”.

                                                 

                                                Stay safe, Be well, Win stuff,

                                                glb

                                                From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Dane
                                                Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 1:55 PM
                                                To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Hi George -

                                                What about "closure" is it that you think would make a good topic?  Do you mean "What is a closure?"  Or do you mean "Why doesn't Java have closures?"

                                                My recollection is that the word "closure" arose in the context of dynamic, LISP-like languages. My understanding (and I have no personal knowledge of this) is that variable scoping in early LISPs was "dynamic", i.e. a program could refer to variables living anywhere on the call stack, regardless of where the variable was defined/bound.  Sorta like "global" variables.  The problem was that when you defined a function you couldn't be sure that the variables you used in the body of the function wouldn't be clobbered by the time the function was called.  The solution was to "close" the function definition over the lexical scope of the function.

                                                For an early (but probably not the earliest) use of the term "closure", see page 21 in this 1978 Steele/Sussman paper:

                                                  http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/ai-lab-pubs/AIM-453.pdf

                                                I was not there myself when all this happened (I was 8 when that paper was published), and the "discovery" of lexical scoping feels somewhat obvious ("this square wheel isn't working so well -- maybe we try a round one?"), but that's easy for us to say.  I suspect that uses of the term "closure" today refer to something closely related to, but not identical to, the original sense of the word. (For example, a Javaworld article says: "a closure is a block of code that can be passed as an argument to a function call" which I would consider a necessary but not a sufficient condition.) This makes it difficult to know just what someone means today when they talk about closures.

                                                Java doesn't have closures because it has classes, which serve some of the same purposes with respect to scoping.  Anonymous inner classes are sorta like a closure, but (as I recall) you've got to declare "final" all local variables in scope at the declaration of the class, which arguably defeats the purpose of using a closure (since a closure is supposed to have access to its lexical scope).  Also, the syntax is bulky and cumbersome, in keeping with Java's general tendencies in that regard.

                                                Has anyone done a Scala talk?  I'd be interested in that.  (And Scala has closures, or so I'm told.)

                                                On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 9:44 AM, G <g@...> wrote:

                                                 

                                                Hi All,

                                                 

                                                Please see lack of “closures” below.

                                                In case anyone else would find it of interest, I think “closure” would be an interesting topic for a future meeting.

                                                 

                                                George

                                                 

                                                From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Joseph
                                                Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 11:02 AM
                                                To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                                                Cc: Daniel Leuck; Jim Thompson
                                                Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Anyone Still Alive Out There

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Hi Dan,

                                                On 5/4/11 11:13 AM, Daniel Leuck wrote:

                                                 

                                                In particular I think he was agitating for:

                                                1) generic types
                                                2) operator overloading
                                                3) user defined types.

                                                I think we got the first one since he gave the talk, but not the last
                                                two, right?


                                                Generics - Yes, but they are implemented via erasure which is suboptimal because you lose the ability to introspect generic types at runtime. .NET got that one right.

                                                Interesting.

                                                Operator overloading - No, but you can do this in numerous other Java-like JVM targeted languages such as Groovy.

                                                Right.  Still haven't tried Groovy ...

                                                User defined types - Are you referring to user defined value types (primitives)?

                                                I think Guy Steele was

                                                Java still doesn't do this. .NET supports user defined value types / structs.

                                                That's good to know.

                                                My main current complaints with Java:
                                                - No closures
                                                - No language integrated query
                                                - No language-level support for properties
                                                - Bad implementation of generics (basically a compiler trick)

                                                I find that I can get replicate most of closures using anonymous inner classes in Java.  Seems to annoy the hell out of my students :-)

                                                CHEERS> SAM


                                                -- 
                                                Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                                Associate Professor, Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
                                                  http://www.hpu.edu/cs
                                                Hawaii-Pacific University
                                                ---
                                                Ever wanted to write your own Computer Games? 
                                                Take Game Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                                  http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3651-game-programming-at
                                                ---
                                                Join the Cloud Revolution! 
                                                Take Internet Programming Online at HPU in Fall 2011! 
                                                  http://www.techhui.com/events/csci-3632-internet-programming
                                                 

                                                 




                                                --

                                                joe

                                              • J. David Beutel
                                                ... What language is this? It looks similar in Groovy: var threshold = computeThreshold() var heavyTravellers = employeeList.findAll {e - e.milesOfCommute
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 11, 2011
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                                                  On 2011-05-11 13:04 , Jim Thompson wrote:

                                                  What language is this?  It looks similar in Groovy:

                                                  var threshold = computeThreshold()
                                                  var heavyTravellers = employeeList.findAll {e -> e.milesOfCommute > threshold}

                                                  (or with the default instead of named parameter, {it.milesOfCommute > threshold})

                                                  IntelliJ also has "poor man's closure" folding[1] for Java, but I prefer real closures.

                                                  Cheers,
                                                  11011011

                                                  [1] http://blogs.jetbrains.com/idea/2009/03/closure-folding-in-intellij-idea-9-maia/
                                                • J. David Beutel
                                                  Hmm, I munged up my reply, somehow. I ll try again: ... What language is this? It looks similar in Groovy: var threshold = computeThreshold() var
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 11, 2011
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                                                    Hmm, I munged up my reply, somehow.  I'll try again:

                                                    On 2011-05-11 13:04 , Jim Thompson wrote:
                                                    var threshold = ComputeThreshold();
                                                    var heavyTravellers = employeeList.FindAll(e => e.MilesOfCommute > threshold);



                                                    What language is this?  It looks similar in Groovy:

                                                    var threshold = computeThreshold()
                                                    var heavyTravellers = employeeList.findAll {e -> e.milesOfCommute > threshold}

                                                    (or with the default instead of named parameter, {it.milesOfCommute > threshold})

                                                    IntelliJ also has "poor man's closure" folding[1] for Java, but I prefer real closures.

                                                    Cheers,
                                                    11011011

                                                    [1] http://blogs.jetbrains.com/idea/2009/03/closure-folding-in-intellij-idea-9-maia/
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