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web 2.0 troubleshooting/debugging

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  • Dave Burns
    I mentioned this idea to Sam and he encouraged me to bring it up as a honolulu coders topic. At first I thought I should do my homework and make a good start
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 11, 2009
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      I mentioned this idea to Sam and he encouraged me to bring it up as a
      honolulu coders topic. At first I thought I should do my homework and
      make a good start on exploring my own question, but then I decided to
      be a documentarian (lazy) and include my research process as part of
      the discussion. This post is just a description of the raw idea as it
      popped out of my brain.

      Sometimes when I am doing something and it blows up, I can google the
      error message/description and the top hit will contain a suggestion
      that solves my problem. Magic! Other times, I get a million hits which
      are mostly redundant references to some forum post where someone just
      like me is complaining about encountering this error and begging for
      help, receiving none. Or even more frustrating, that sort of post,
      followed by 'never mind, I figured it out" with no hint of what the
      solution might be.

      Seems to me there should/could be a web site or technique for
      aggregating this sort of thing and winnowing out the useless stuff and
      giving recognition and high visibility to stuff that actually provides
      a solution. Maybe this exists already and I need to find out about it?
      Google is great, but I can't believe it is the best we could do.

      Obviously, if I am the person who posted to some forum post describing
      the problem, I can post a follow-up linking to a solution or just
      describing it. That's what we've got now. Or I could reply to someone
      else's post if comments are still allowed. Sometimes they are not, or
      you have to go through an annoying sign-up/login, and even then there
      is no commonly accepted way to try to claim loudly "here is the
      solution to that!" or "this guy knows nothing!"

      Possible to use del.icio.us, sort of? I want to be able to search
      del.icio.us for the error message, combined with a special tag such as
      'solution', and have it take me straight to the goods. Unfortunately,
      del.icio.us's search mechanism only works on tags? So Maybe a mashup
      of google search and del.icio.us (or one of del.icio.us's many
      competitors/addons/mashups)?

      We could generalize it into a sort of hyper hyper linking/searching,
      where I am able to say "this url is related to that url in this way"
      specifically, "the problem described at this URL is solved at that URL
      and it worked for me" or "that URL claims to solve the problem
      described in this URL but it didn't work for me." Or even "don't waste
      your time reading this URL." So I would enter the error message or
      other description of my problem, hit a button, and get a list of hits
      that describe something 'similar' paired with hits that claim to solve
      the problem. If there's no solution, it should be easy to add one, or
      to elaborate on an existing solution.

      There could be a form to help people categorize and describe the
      problem. Ideally, the taxonomy of symptoms would emerge from the
      efforts of the various solution seekers to describe their problems and
      the eventual solutions. Stuff that got used more would be more
      visible.

      There does exist a way to find out what tags have been put on a page
      in del.icio.us, though I think it might not be part of del.icio.us
      itself but a separate mashup deal. That might provide a sufficient
      mechanism.

      I've never even looked at digg, could it be used for this somehow?
      There needs to be a rating system so that spammers and trolls can't
      pollute the info environment. Solutions could also be rated, from
      'noob can do' to 'requires mad skills.'

      Of course, there are some error messages that are just too general. If
      I am compiling a java program and I get a syntax error, I don't think
      this thing would help me much. But even there, it might help a newbie
      by adding a human-readable suggestion such as "You've probably made a
      typographical error or put some punctuation in the wrong place, you
      need to check the code word by word, character by character, and make
      sure it is legal. You might try commenting out some statements until
      it compiles, then add them back in until you figure out what the
      compiler is complaining about."

      Hope this is interesting. Comments?
      Dave
    • Robert Brewer
      ... I actually worked on this problem back in 1999, though in the mailing list space. I developed a system called MCS that allowed a human editor to condense a
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 11, 2009
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        --On July 11, 2009 10:38:43 AM -1000 Dave Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:

        > I mentioned this idea to Sam and he encouraged me to bring it up as a
        > honolulu coders topic. At first I thought I should do my homework and
        > make a good start on exploring my own question, but then I decided to
        > be a documentarian (lazy) and include my research process as part of
        > the discussion. This post is just a description of the raw idea as it
        > popped out of my brain.
        >
        > Sometimes when I am doing something and it blows up, I can google the
        > error message/description and the top hit will contain a suggestion
        > that solves my problem. Magic! Other times, I get a million hits which
        > are mostly redundant references to some forum post where someone just
        > like me is complaining about encountering this error and begging for
        > help, receiving none. Or even more frustrating, that sort of post,
        > followed by 'never mind, I figured it out" with no hint of what the
        > solution might be.
        >
        > Seems to me there should/could be a web site or technique for
        > aggregating this sort of thing and winnowing out the useless stuff and
        > giving recognition and high visibility to stuff that actually provides
        > a solution. Maybe this exists already and I need to find out about it?
        > Google is great, but I can't believe it is the best we could do.
        >
        > Obviously, if I am the person who posted to some forum post describing
        > the problem, I can post a follow-up linking to a solution or just
        > describing it. That's what we've got now. Or I could reply to someone
        > else's post if comments are still allowed. Sometimes they are not, or
        > you have to go through an annoying sign-up/login, and even then there
        > is no commonly accepted way to try to claim loudly "here is the
        > solution to that!" or "this guy knows nothing!"
        >
        > Possible to use del.icio.us, sort of? I want to be able to search
        > del.icio.us for the error message, combined with a special tag such as
        > 'solution', and have it take me straight to the goods. Unfortunately,
        > del.icio.us's search mechanism only works on tags? So Maybe a mashup
        > of google search and del.icio.us (or one of del.icio.us's many
        > competitors/addons/mashups)?
        >
        > We could generalize it into a sort of hyper hyper linking/searching,
        > where I am able to say "this url is related to that url in this way"
        > specifically, "the problem described at this URL is solved at that URL
        > and it worked for me" or "that URL claims to solve the problem
        > described in this URL but it didn't work for me." Or even "don't waste
        > your time reading this URL." So I would enter the error message or
        > other description of my problem, hit a button, and get a list of hits
        > that describe something 'similar' paired with hits that claim to solve
        > the problem. If there's no solution, it should be easy to add one, or
        > to elaborate on an existing solution.
        >
        > There could be a form to help people categorize and describe the
        > problem. Ideally, the taxonomy of symptoms would emerge from the
        > efforts of the various solution seekers to describe their problems and
        > the eventual solutions. Stuff that got used more would be more
        > visible.
        >
        > There does exist a way to find out what tags have been put on a page
        > in del.icio.us, though I think it might not be part of del.icio.us
        > itself but a separate mashup deal. That might provide a sufficient
        > mechanism.
        >
        > I've never even looked at digg, could it be used for this somehow?
        > There needs to be a rating system so that spammers and trolls can't
        > pollute the info environment. Solutions could also be rated, from
        > 'noob can do' to 'requires mad skills.'
        >
        > Of course, there are some error messages that are just too general. If
        > I am compiling a java program and I get a syntax error, I don't think
        > this thing would help me much. But even there, it might help a newbie
        > by adding a human-readable suggestion such as "You've probably made a
        > typographical error or put some punctuation in the wrong place, you
        > need to check the code word by word, character by character, and make
        > sure it is legal. You might try commenting out some statements until
        > it compiles, then add them back in until you figure out what the
        > compiler is complaining about."
        >
        > Hope this is interesting. Comments?
        > Dave

        I actually worked on this problem back in 1999, though in the mailing list
        space. I developed a system called MCS that allowed a human editor to
        condense a mailing list and add metadata like keywords (question, answer,
        etc). It never made it past the point of a research project, so I mention
        it mostly for curiosity's sake.

        <http://csdl.ics.hawaii.edu/Plone/research/mcs>

        Stack Overflow is the closest site I can think of to the solution you are
        proposing. It's like reddit/digg but for programming questions, with
        tagging, etc. It's designed to handle questions that are entered on the
        site, not questions anywhere on the web, so it's far less ambitious than
        your proposal.

        <http://stackoverflow.com/>

        --
        Robert Brewer
        http://excitedcuriosity.wordpress.com/
      • J. David Beutel
        Google has pointed me at some sites where you can post a question and then say which answers were valuable (awarding points). However, in general, I think
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 12, 2009
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          Google has pointed me at some sites where you can post a question and
          then say which answers were valuable (awarding points). However, in
          general, I think it's hard to beat Google itself. It indexes blogs and
          the archives of mailing lists like this, where anyone can post links to
          questions and answers without needing any microformat.


          Robert Brewer wrote:
          > --On July 11, 2009 10:38:43 AM -1000 Dave Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >> I mentioned this idea to Sam and he encouraged me to bring it up as a
          >> honolulu coders topic. At first I thought I should do my homework and
          >> make a good start on exploring my own question, but then I decided to
          >> be a documentarian (lazy) and include my research process as part of
          >> the discussion. This post is just a description of the raw idea as it
          >> popped out of my brain.
          >>
          >> Sometimes when I am doing something and it blows up, I can google the
          >> error message/description and the top hit will contain a suggestion
          >> that solves my problem. Magic! Other times, I get a million hits which
          >> are mostly redundant references to some forum post where someone just
          >> like me is complaining about encountering this error and begging for
          >> help, receiving none. Or even more frustrating, that sort of post,
          >> followed by 'never mind, I figured it out" with no hint of what the
          >> solution might be.
          >>
          >> Seems to me there should/could be a web site or technique for
          >> aggregating this sort of thing and winnowing out the useless stuff and
          >> giving recognition and high visibility to stuff that actually provides
          >> a solution. Maybe this exists already and I need to find out about it?
          >> Google is great, but I can't believe it is the best we could do.
          >>
          >> Obviously, if I am the person who posted to some forum post describing
          >> the problem, I can post a follow-up linking to a solution or just
          >> describing it. That's what we've got now. Or I could reply to someone
          >> else's post if comments are still allowed. Sometimes they are not, or
          >> you have to go through an annoying sign-up/login, and even then there
          >> is no commonly accepted way to try to claim loudly "here is the
          >> solution to that!" or "this guy knows nothing!"
          >>
          >> Possible to use del.icio.us, sort of? I want to be able to search
          >> del.icio.us for the error message, combined with a special tag such as
          >> 'solution', and have it take me straight to the goods. Unfortunately,
          >> del.icio.us's search mechanism only works on tags? So Maybe a mashup
          >> of google search and del.icio.us (or one of del.icio.us's many
          >> competitors/addons/mashups)?
          >>
          >> We could generalize it into a sort of hyper hyper linking/searching,
          >> where I am able to say "this url is related to that url in this way"
          >> specifically, "the problem described at this URL is solved at that URL
          >> and it worked for me" or "that URL claims to solve the problem
          >> described in this URL but it didn't work for me." Or even "don't waste
          >> your time reading this URL." So I would enter the error message or
          >> other description of my problem, hit a button, and get a list of hits
          >> that describe something 'similar' paired with hits that claim to solve
          >> the problem. If there's no solution, it should be easy to add one, or
          >> to elaborate on an existing solution.
          >>
          >> There could be a form to help people categorize and describe the
          >> problem. Ideally, the taxonomy of symptoms would emerge from the
          >> efforts of the various solution seekers to describe their problems and
          >> the eventual solutions. Stuff that got used more would be more
          >> visible.
          >>
          >> There does exist a way to find out what tags have been put on a page
          >> in del.icio.us, though I think it might not be part of del.icio.us
          >> itself but a separate mashup deal. That might provide a sufficient
          >> mechanism.
          >>
          >> I've never even looked at digg, could it be used for this somehow?
          >> There needs to be a rating system so that spammers and trolls can't
          >> pollute the info environment. Solutions could also be rated, from
          >> 'noob can do' to 'requires mad skills.'
          >>
          >> Of course, there are some error messages that are just too general. If
          >> I am compiling a java program and I get a syntax error, I don't think
          >> this thing would help me much. But even there, it might help a newbie
          >> by adding a human-readable suggestion such as "You've probably made a
          >> typographical error or put some punctuation in the wrong place, you
          >> need to check the code word by word, character by character, and make
          >> sure it is legal. You might try commenting out some statements until
          >> it compiles, then add them back in until you figure out what the
          >> compiler is complaining about."
          >>
          >> Hope this is interesting. Comments?
          >> Dave
          >>
          >
          > I actually worked on this problem back in 1999, though in the mailing list
          > space. I developed a system called MCS that allowed a human editor to
          > condense a mailing list and add metadata like keywords (question, answer,
          > etc). It never made it past the point of a research project, so I mention
          > it mostly for curiosity's sake.
          >
          > <http://csdl.ics.hawaii.edu/Plone/research/mcs>
          >
          > Stack Overflow is the closest site I can think of to the solution you are
          > proposing. It's like reddit/digg but for programming questions, with
          > tagging, etc. It's designed to handle questions that are entered on the
          > site, not questions anywhere on the web, so it's far less ambitious than
          > your proposal.
          >
          > <http://stackoverflow.com/>
          >
          >
        • David Burns
          ... I think that the solution to nearly any problem I encounter exists somewhere on the web, and that google can find it (in nearly every case) if I search for
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 12, 2009
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            On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 11:10 AM, J. David Beutel<jdb@...> wrote:
            > Google has pointed me at some sites where you can post a question and
            > then say which answers were valuable (awarding points).

            I think that the solution to nearly any problem I encounter exists
            somewhere on the web, and that google can find it (in nearly every
            case) if I search for words from the error message, but the problem is
            that it will also find many other pages which are no help.

            From your brief description, I think those sites seem limited because
            they ignore the pre-existing answers out there on the web. That is the
            gold I want to mine.

            > general, I think it's hard to beat Google itself.

            Certainly google is spectacular at finding stuff, but have you really
            never felt frustrated trying to separate the wheat from the chaff? It
            seems to me there ought to be a way to help google find the answer I
            am looking for, some way for people using it to guide it toward the
            better answers and away from the less good. Google tries to do this to
            some extent, putting the 'best' hits at the top. I think they could
            use some help.

            I vaguely remember some web service that let people add metadata to
            any page they visited, and others using the same service could see the
            various comments. I guess it must've flopped or I would not have
            forgotten it. Probably attracted too much spam.

            Maybe a google mashup that adds some tags or icons or ratings to the
            hits. If there is no 'the answer' yet, it lets me nominate one. I want
            to do this both because it will remember it for me so I can fix the
            same problem again in the future and so it will help out others. If
            'the answer' already exists, I can just grab it. It should let me fine
            tune things, such as 'this did *not* work for me, I think its because
            my machine is x and I am running version y of software z, here is the
            answer that worked for me.'

            I think a sort of language might emerge, a language for describing
            problems and solutions and demarcating the boundaries. It might start
            showing up in the original articles as metadata, at which point google
            would be good enough.

            Dave
          • Joseph Dane
            google has certainly not solved the separate the wheat from the chaff problem. one problem with your proposed annotation service is the ephemeral nature of
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 12, 2009
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              google has certainly not solved the "separate the wheat from the
              chaff" problem.

              one problem with your proposed "annotation service" is the ephemeral
              nature of the web. once you've identified the "gold" out there in the
              wild, you need to ensure it doesn't vanish. that leads to a
              centralized repository of some sort, and once you've got that you're
              probably better off just soliciting new answers from the start.

              I'll once again mention stackoverflow, because I've found intelligent
              answers there and even, on the one occasion where I actually asked a
              question myself, an answer from a fellow honolulu-coder:

              http://stackoverflow.com/questions/917526/how-can-all-activerecord-attribute-accessors-be-wrapped


              On Jul 12, 2009, at 2:32 PM, David Burns wrote:

              > On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 11:10 AM, J. David Beutel<jdb@...>
              > wrote:
              >> Google has pointed me at some sites where you can post a question and
              >> then say which answers were valuable (awarding points).
              >
              > I think that the solution to nearly any problem I encounter exists
              > somewhere on the web, and that google can find it (in nearly every
              > case) if I search for words from the error message, but the problem is
              > that it will also find many other pages which are no help.
              >
              > From your brief description, I think those sites seem limited because
              > they ignore the pre-existing answers out there on the web. That is the
              > gold I want to mine.
              >
              >> general, I think it's hard to beat Google itself.
              >
              > Certainly google is spectacular at finding stuff, but have you really
              > never felt frustrated trying to separate the wheat from the chaff? It
              > seems to me there ought to be a way to help google find the answer I
              > am looking for, some way for people using it to guide it toward the
              > better answers and away from the less good. Google tries to do this to
              > some extent, putting the 'best' hits at the top. I think they could
              > use some help.
              >
              > I vaguely remember some web service that let people add metadata to
              > any page they visited, and others using the same service could see the
              > various comments. I guess it must've flopped or I would not have
              > forgotten it. Probably attracted too much spam.
              >
              > Maybe a google mashup that adds some tags or icons or ratings to the
              > hits. If there is no 'the answer' yet, it lets me nominate one. I want
              > to do this both because it will remember it for me so I can fix the
              > same problem again in the future and so it will help out others. If
              > 'the answer' already exists, I can just grab it. It should let me fine
              > tune things, such as 'this did *not* work for me, I think its because
              > my machine is x and I am running version y of software z, here is the
              > answer that worked for me.'
              >
              > I think a sort of language might emerge, a language for describing
              > problems and solutions and demarcating the boundaries. It might start
              > showing up in the original articles as metadata, at which point google
              > would be good enough.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > UPCOMING MEETINGS:
              > none arranged - please tell us when and where you'd like to have
              > oneYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              --

              joe
            • David Burns
              ... google cache? ... Which is unacceptable, so I am back at square one. Maybe I just have to accept the fact that some web pages will change or disappear, and
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 12, 2009
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                On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Joseph Dane<jdane@...> wrote:
                > google has certainly not solved the "separate the wheat from the
                > chaff" problem.
                >
                > one problem with your proposed "annotation service" is the ephemeral
                > nature of the web.  once you've identified the "gold" out there in the
                > wild, you need to ensure it doesn't vanish.

                google cache?

                >that leads to a
                > centralized repository of some sort, and once you've got that you're
                > probably better off just soliciting new answers from the start.

                Which is unacceptable, so I am back at square one. Maybe I just have
                to accept the fact that some web pages will change or disappear, and
                the system will need to adjust to that somehow. Perhaps once an answer
                has become sufficiently popular the system should save a copy of the
                content.

                Or maybe it should just save a copy of everything. stackoverflow has
                to keep a copy of all its posts, right? One or two of del.icio.us's
                competitors/imitators save the entire content of the pages that get
                tagged. They don't seem to think the problem is insurmountable. Google
                apparently caches (nearly? mostly?) every page they index. I can just
                tap into that.

                > I'll once again mention stackoverflow, because I've found intelligent
                > answers there

                I like the badges. I wonder how strict they are about keeping it
                focused on programming? Next time I have a good error message I will
                try them out.

                Dave
              • J. David Beutel
                ... This sounds a little like Google s SearchWiki. I ve got comment, promote, and remove icons on every search result, and links at the bottom to add a result
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 13, 2009
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                  David Burns wrote:
                  > Certainly google is spectacular at finding stuff, but have you really
                  > never felt frustrated trying to separate the wheat from the chaff? It
                  > seems to me there ought to be a way to help google find the answer I
                  > am looking for, some way for people using it to guide it toward the
                  > better answers and away from the less good. Google tries to do this to
                  > some extent, putting the 'best' hits at the top. I think they could
                  > use some help.
                  >

                  > Maybe a google mashup that adds some tags or icons or ratings to the
                  > hits. If there is no 'the answer' yet, it lets me nominate one. I want
                  > to do this both because it will remember it for me so I can fix the
                  > same problem again in the future and so it will help out others. If
                  > 'the answer' already exists, I can just grab it. It should let me fine
                  > tune things, such as 'this did *not* work for me, I think its because
                  > my machine is x and I am running version y of software z, here is the
                  > answer that worked for me.'
                  >


                  This sounds a little like Google's SearchWiki. I've got comment,
                  promote, and remove icons on every search result, and links at the
                  bottom to add a result or see all of my or everyone's notes.

                  http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=115764

                  Of course, I do everything under Google's benevolent and all-seeing
                  eye. But, I've never actually used this SearchWiki feature. It seems
                  like spitting into the ocean. It doesn't affect others' search results,
                  and for my own records I think I'd be better off making notes on a blog
                  or social bookmarking site (although I haven't done that either).

                  Anyway, I'd welcome a better way to find answers.

                  Cheers,
                  11011011
                • Robert Brewer
                  ... When the page goes away, Google s cache goes away after some period of time. The Internet Archive might be a better choice, but that s somewhat more
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 13, 2009
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                    --On July 12, 2009 4:30:03 PM -1000 David Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:

                    > On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Joseph Dane<jdane@...> wrote:
                    >> google has certainly not solved the "separate the wheat from the
                    >> chaff" problem.
                    >>
                    >> one problem with your proposed "annotation service" is the ephemeral
                    >> nature of the web.  once you've identified the "gold" out there in the
                    >> wild, you need to ensure it doesn't vanish.
                    >
                    > google cache?

                    When the page goes away, Google's cache goes away after some period of
                    time. The Internet Archive might be a better choice, but that's somewhat
                    more finicky (they don't crawl as frequently as Google, etc).
                  • Robert Brewer
                    ... Perhaps this is not the answer you are looking for, but the way to help Google move the good answers to the top of the search results is to link to the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 13, 2009
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                      --On July 12, 2009 2:32:02 PM -1000 David Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:

                      > On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 11:10 AM, J. David Beutel<jdb@...> wrote:
                      >> general, I think it's hard to beat Google itself.
                      >
                      > Certainly google is spectacular at finding stuff, but have you really
                      > never felt frustrated trying to separate the wheat from the chaff? It
                      > seems to me there ought to be a way to help google find the answer I
                      > am looking for, some way for people using it to guide it toward the
                      > better answers and away from the less good. Google tries to do this to
                      > some extent, putting the 'best' hits at the top. I think they could
                      > use some help.

                      Perhaps this is not the answer you are looking for, but the way to help
                      Google move the good answers to the top of the search results is to link to
                      the page that has the good answer. Probably the best way to do that is to
                      blog about your problem and link to the solution you found that was best
                      (or write up your improved solution). This will improve the PageRank of the
                      solution you found, and eventually that page will bubble up to the top of
                      the results. This also takes care of adding keywords, since every word in
                      your blog post is a potentially searchable keyword for your
                      problem/solution pair.

                      While Google can sometimes be frustrating, building a whole
                      tagging/annotating infrastructure that lots of people use is a BIG task.
                      Look at how many years people have been saying that the Semantic Web will
                      be coming Real Soon Now. Blogging (or Twittering) + Google is here now,
                      easy, and actually works in my experience.
                    • Robert Brewer
                      --On July 13, 2009 10:06:32 AM -1000 J. David Beutel ... I ve used the promote button a few times when the canonical page I wanted for a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 13, 2009
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                        --On July 13, 2009 10:06:32 AM -1000 "J. David Beutel" <jdb@...>
                        wrote:

                        > This sounds a little like Google's SearchWiki. I've got comment,
                        > promote, and remove icons on every search result, and links at the
                        > bottom to add a result or see all of my or everyone's notes.
                        >
                        > http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=115764
                        >
                        > Of course, I do everything under Google's benevolent and all-seeing
                        > eye. But, I've never actually used this SearchWiki feature. It seems
                        > like spitting into the ocean. It doesn't affect others' search results,
                        > and for my own records I think I'd be better off making notes on a blog
                        > or social bookmarking site (although I haven't done that either).

                        I've used the promote button a few times when the canonical page I wanted
                        for a particular search was not in the top 5 for some reason. Not sure what
                        Google's long-term plan is for this feature, if it doesn't affect others'
                        search results.
                      • David Burns
                        ... Bzzzt! Therefore a non-starter. For there to be any synergy, what I do has to be visible to you, and vice versa. ... This is more along the lines I
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 13, 2009
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                          On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:06 AM, J. David Beutel<jdb@...> wrote:
                          >  It doesn't affect others' search results,

                          Bzzzt! Therefore a non-starter. For there to be any synergy, what I do
                          has to be visible to you, and vice versa.

                          > and for my own records I think I'd be better off making notes on a blog
                          > or social bookmarking site (although I haven't done that either).

                          This is more along the lines I imagined. I tend to use del.icio.us to
                          tag pages that I think are useful so I can find them again later more
                          easily. I'd be happy to add an extra tag or two to indicate "I had
                          this problem" or "this solved it for me" or "this page was useless"
                          just for my own reference. If everyone is allowed to peek over my
                          shoulder, I think the result could be very powerful. (tagging
                          conventions?)

                          I looked at Robert's old project and it does seem closely related. It
                          was slightly more general than my error message troubleshooting idea,
                          aimed at separating all the useful stuff in a forum archive from the
                          useless. I think the fact that it depended on a single human editor to
                          make most decisions greatly limits the scale it can achieve, and that
                          a more smart mob/agora/web 2.0 approach could make it much more
                          scaleable.

                          Dave
                        • David Burns
                          http://www.errorhelp.com/info/about seems to be pursuing a version of this idea. Their interface is really bad, I can t figure out how to join. Maybe noscript
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 25, 2009
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                            http://www.errorhelp.com/info/about seems to be pursuing a version of
                            this idea. Their interface is really bad, I can't figure out how to
                            join. Maybe noscript is blocking something.
                            Dave
                          • Robert Brewer
                            ... It looks like accounts are automatically created when you submit an error and give you email address? I agree that the interface is quite strange and not
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 26, 2009
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                              --On July 25, 2009 12:10:18 PM -1000 David Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:

                              > http://www.errorhelp.com/info/about seems to be pursuing a version of
                              > this idea. Their interface is really bad, I can't figure out how to
                              > join. Maybe noscript is blocking something.
                              > Dave

                              It looks like accounts are automatically created when you submit an error
                              and give you email address? I agree that the interface is quite strange and
                              not intuitive.
                            • David Burns
                              If I understand you, I tried that and it did not work. Maybe I goofed it up because I didn t want to be reminded to give the solution - I had it in my hand
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 26, 2009
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                                If I understand you, I tried that and it did not work. Maybe I goofed
                                it up because I didn't want to be 'reminded' to give the solution - I
                                had it in my hand and wanted to plug it in right away.

                                Did you succeed in getting an account?
                                Dave

                                On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Robert Brewer<rbrewer@...> wrote:
                                > --On July 25, 2009 12:10:18 PM -1000 David Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> http://www.errorhelp.com/info/about seems to be pursuing a version of
                                >> this idea. Their interface is really bad, I can't figure out how to
                                >> join. Maybe noscript is blocking something.
                                >> Dave
                                >
                                > It looks like accounts are automatically created when you submit an error
                                > and give you email address? I agree that the interface is quite strange and
                                > not intuitive.
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > UPCOMING MEETINGS:
                                > none arranged - please tell us when and where you'd like to have oneYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                ———————————————————————-
                                Q: Why should this email be 5 sentences or less?
                                A: http://five.sentenc.es
                                IPRC-help FAQ: https://wailua/wiki/index.php/Faq
                              • Robert Brewer
                                ... I did. After submitting a solution, there was a profile link where I could choose a username and password.
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 26, 2009
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                                  On Jul 26, 2009, at 3:24 PM, David Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:

                                  > If I understand you, I tried that and it did not work. Maybe I goofed
                                  > it up because I didn't want to be 'reminded' to give the solution - I
                                  > had it in my hand and wanted to plug it in right away.
                                  >
                                  > Did you succeed in getting an account?
                                  > Dave

                                  I did. After submitting a solution, there was a profile link where I
                                  could choose a username and password.
                                • Sam Joseph
                                  So did you guys want to have a honolulu-coders meeting in SL one day and summarize the discussion etc.? CHEERS SAM ... -- Sam Joseph, Ph.D. Laboratory for
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 27, 2009
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                                    So did you guys want to have a honolulu-coders meeting in SL one day and
                                    summarize the discussion etc.?

                                    CHEERS> SAM

                                    Robert Brewer wrote:
                                    > On Jul 26, 2009, at 3:24 PM, David Burns <tdbtdb@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> If I understand you, I tried that and it did not work. Maybe I goofed
                                    >> it up because I didn't want to be 'reminded' to give the solution - I
                                    >> had it in my hand and wanted to plug it in right away.
                                    >>
                                    >> Did you succeed in getting an account?
                                    >> Dave
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > I did. After submitting a solution, there was a profile link where I
                                    > could choose a username and password.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > UPCOMING MEETINGS:
                                    > none arranged - please tell us when and where you'd like to have oneYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    --
                                    Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                    Laboratory for Interactive Learning Technologies
                                    Department of Information and Computer Sciences
                                    University of Hawaii
                                  • David Burns
                                    Seems too lightweight as of yet. Dave
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 27, 2009
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                                      Seems too lightweight as of yet.
                                      Dave

                                      On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Sam Joseph<srjoseph@...> wrote:
                                      > So did you guys want to have a honolulu-coders meeting in SL one day and
                                      > summarize the discussion etc.?
                                    • Sam Joseph
                                      Nothing is too light for SL :-) triviality is order of the day - particularly for the first time we do honolulu coders in SL - we should just have some topics
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 27, 2009
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                                        Nothing is too light for SL :-) triviality is order of the day -
                                        particularly for the first time we do honolulu coders in SL - we should
                                        just have some topics for discussion and then sit round and talk.

                                        CHEERS> SAM

                                        David Burns wrote:
                                        > Seems too lightweight as of yet.
                                        > Dave
                                        >
                                        > On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Sam Joseph<srjoseph@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> So did you guys want to have a honolulu-coders meeting in SL one day and
                                        >> summarize the discussion etc.?
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > UPCOMING MEETINGS:
                                        > none arranged - please tell us when and where you'd like to have oneYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        --
                                        Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                        Laboratory for Interactive Learning Technologies
                                        Department of Information and Computer Sciences
                                        University of Hawaii
                                      • David Burns
                                        Well, with the bar that low I guess I can t argue. I am also interested in writing a simple ruby script to access a google spreadsheet. I d be happy to be able
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 27, 2009
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                                          Well, with the bar that low I guess I can't argue.

                                          I am also interested in writing a simple ruby script to access a
                                          google spreadsheet. I'd be happy to be able to just generate a .csv
                                          file, but it seems that google has opened up their API and many things
                                          are possible now. Oddly, most of the ruby stuff I've found online
                                          consists of outdated hacks from before the era of openness.

                                          My google script might be too trivial an example, but might we
                                          consider taking pair programming way beyond sanity and collaborate on
                                          some sort of program as a group?

                                          Dave

                                          On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Sam Joseph<srjoseph@...> wrote:
                                          > Nothing is too light for SL :-) triviality is order of the day -
                                          > particularly for the first time we do honolulu coders in SL - we should
                                          > just have some topics for discussion and then sit round and talk.
                                          >
                                          > CHEERS> SAM
                                          >
                                          > David Burns wrote:
                                          >> Seems too lightweight as of yet.
                                          >> Dave
                                          >>
                                          >> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Sam Joseph<srjoseph@...> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>> So did you guys want to have a honolulu-coders meeting in SL one day and
                                          >>> summarize the discussion etc.?
                                          >>>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> ------------------------------------
                                          >>
                                          >> UPCOMING MEETINGS:
                                          >> none arranged - please tell us when and where you'd like to have oneYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Sam Joseph, Ph.D.
                                          > Laboratory for Interactive Learning Technologies
                                          > Department of Information and Computer Sciences
                                          > University of Hawaii
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > UPCOMING MEETINGS:
                                          > none arranged - please tell us when and where you'd like to have oneYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          --
                                          ———————————————————————-
                                          Q: Why should this email be 5 sentences or less?
                                          A: http://five.sentenc.es
                                          IPRC-help FAQ: https://wailua/wiki/index.php/Faq
                                        • David Burns
                                          name for web site based on this idea - whackipedia Dave
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Aug 15, 2009
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                                            name for web site based on this idea -

                                            whackipedia

                                            Dave
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