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Finally: A real shell for Windows

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  • Daniel Leuck
    http://www.microsof
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 14, 2006
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    • Ron Fox
      ...
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 15, 2006
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        --- In honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Leuck" <dan@...> wrote:
        >
        > http://www.microsof
        >
        <http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/management/powershe
        > ll/default.mspx>
        > t.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/management/powershell/default.mspx
        >

        Thanks for the link, Daniel. I particularly enjoyed the article:

        "Introducing Windows PowerShell: UNIX Administrators Won't Be Laughing
        Anymore by Windows IT Pro Magazine"

        I suppose a command scripting language that's described as being like
        IBM's JCL or DEC's DCL (the command language for the VMS operating
        system) might be seen as a vast improvement over cmd.exe but it
        doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH. There
        must be more to it than is described here. Whatever happened to
        Windows Scripting Host?

        Still laughing,

        Ron (a new member and looking forward to the 29 Nov meeting)
      • Daniel Leuck
        Hi Ron, Welcome to the group. ... My pleasure. I am glad you enjoyed the article. ... I m not sure this is true. PowerShell has numerous advantages including
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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          Hi Ron,

           

          Welcome to the group.

           

          > Thanks for the link, Daniel. I particularly enjoyed the article

           

          My pleasure.  I am glad you enjoyed the article.

           

          > doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH

           

          I'm not sure this is true.  PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files. For example, "ls" produces a list of actual file objects with attributes that can be queried, manipulated, etc.  The output is generated by calling ToString() on the objects.   The shell language, which is as terse and SA friendly as bash, is a first class .NET language with access to all the core libraries, windows services, and fast in-process interop with other .NET languages.  You can do all the command composition gymnastics supported by bash and PowerShell has a unified view of the system that treats registry and directory service nodes just like files.   Why do you feel it "doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH"?  Although it has served us well, bash is twenty years old.  I would argue the structured OO approach of PowerShell is more modern.

           

          > Ron (a new member and looking forward to the 29 Nov meeting)

           

          We look forward to seeing you at the next meeting!

           

          Best regards,

          Dan

           


          From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Fox
          Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:58 PM
          To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

           

          --- In honolulu-coders@ yahoogroups. com, "Daniel Leuck" <dan@...> wrote:

          >
          > http://www.microsof
          >
          <http://www.microsof t.com/windowsser ver2003/technolo gies/management/ powershe
          > ll/default.mspx>
          > t.com/windowsserver 2003/technologie s/management/ powershell/ default.mspx
          >

          Thanks for the link, Daniel. I particularly enjoyed the article:

          "Introducing Windows PowerShell: UNIX Administrators Won't Be Laughing
          Anymore by Windows IT Pro Magazine"

          I suppose a command scripting language that's described as being like
          IBM's JCL or DEC's DCL (the command language for the VMS operating
          system) might be seen as a vast improvement over cmd.exe but it
          doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH. There
          must be more to it than is described here. Whatever happened to
          Windows Scripting Host?

          Still laughing,

          Ron (a new member and looking forward to the 29 Nov meeting)

        • Daniel Leuck
          BTW - Wikipedia has some good examples of PowerShell usage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerShell _____ From: Daniel Leuck [mailto:dan@ikayzo.com] Sent:
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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            BTW – Wikipedia has some good examples of PowerShell usage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerShell

             


            From: Daniel Leuck [mailto:dan@...]
            Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:18 AM
            To: 'honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

             

            Hi Ron,

             

            Welcome to the group.

             

            > Thanks for the link, Daniel. I particularly enjoyed the article

             

            My pleasure.  I am glad you enjoyed the article.

             

            > doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH

             

            I'm not sure this is true.  PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files. For example, "ls" produces a list of actual file objects with attributes that can be queried, manipulated, etc.  The output is generated by calling ToString() on the objects.   The shell language, which is as terse and SA friendly as bash, is a first class .NET language with access to all the core libraries, windows services, and fast in-process interop with other .NET languages.  You can do all the command composition gymnastics supported by bash and PowerShell has a unified view of the system that treats registry and directory service nodes just like files.   Why do you feel it "doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH"?  Although it has served us well, bash is twenty years old.  I would argue the structured OO approach of PowerShell is more modern.

             

            > Ron (a new member and looking forward to the 29 Nov meeting)

             

            We look forward to seeing you at the next meeting!

             

            Best regards,

            Dan

             


            From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Fox
            Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:58 PM
            To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

             

            --- In honolulu-coders@ yahoogroups. com, "Daniel Leuck" <dan@...> wrote:

            >
            > http://www.microsof
            >
            <http://www.microsof t.com/windowsser ver2003/technolo gies/management/ powershe
            > ll/default.mspx>
            > t.com/windowsserver 2003/technologie s/management/ powershell/ default.mspx
            >

            Thanks for the link, Daniel. I particularly enjoyed the article:

            "Introducing Windows PowerShell: UNIX Administrators Won't Be Laughing
            Anymore by Windows IT Pro Magazine"

            I suppose a command scripting language that's described as being like
            IBM's JCL or DEC's DCL (the command language for the VMS operating
            system) might be seen as a vast improvement over cmd.exe but it
            doesn't begin to touch the power of modern shells like BASH. There
            must be more to it than is described here. Whatever happened to
            Windows Scripting Host?

            Still laughing,

            Ron (a new member and looking forward to the 29 Nov meeting)

          • Dave Burns
            ... If this is what we want, wouldn t a good API plugged in to my favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why reinvent the entire
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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              PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files.


              If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why reinvent the entire wheel?
              Dave

            • Daniel Leuck
              This already exists. Python, Perl, and Ruby have been ported to .NET and have full access to the standard libraries. These languages all have interactive
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                This already exists.  Python, Perl, and Ruby have been ported to .NET and have full access to the standard libraries.  These languages all have interactive interpreters (language oriented shells), but are not intended as replacements for shells designed primarily for system administration tasks.  PowerShell is a marriage of powerful OO techniques and shell programming.  Its design goals are closer to those of bash than Perl, but with an OO twist.

                 


                From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Burns
                Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:30 AM
                To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

                 

                PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files.


                If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why reinvent the entire wheel?
                Dave  

              • Dave Burns
                So what is it I can do with msh (pronounced mush or mash? emshuh? mish? mesh? mosh? Umsh?) that I can t do with Perl and .NET? Or is it just that I can do it
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                  So what is it I can do with msh (pronounced mush or mash? emshuh? mish? mesh? mosh? Umsh?) that I can't do with Perl and .NET? Or is it just that I can do it more elegantly? Or that I get to learn yet another hybrid syntax?
                  Dave

                  On 11/16/06, Daniel Leuck <dan@...> wrote:

                  This already exists.  Python, Perl, and Ruby have been ported to .NET and have full access to the standard libraries.  These languages all have interactive interpreters (language oriented shells), but are not intended as replacements for shells designed primarily for system administration tasks.  PowerShell is a marriage of powerful OO techniques and shell programming.  Its design goals are closer to those of bash than Perl, but with an OO twist.

                   


                  From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Burns
                  Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:30 AM
                  To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

                   

                  PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files.


                  If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why reinvent the entire wheel?
                  Dave  


                • Daniel Leuck
                  ... Nothing. As Seth would say, the same is true for writing to a disk with magnets :-) ... Exactly. ... It is a new language, but I don t know that it s a
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                    > So what is it I can do with msh (pronounced mush or mash? emshuh?

                    > mish? mesh? mosh? Umsh?) that I can't do with Perl and .NET?

                     

                    Nothing.  As Seth would say, the same is true for writing to a disk with magnets :-)

                     

                    > Or is it just that I can do it more elegantly?

                     

                    Exactly.

                     

                    > Or that I get to learn yet another hybrid syntax?

                     

                    It is a new language, but I don’t know that it’s a "hybrid" anymore than Java is a hybrid of C++ and Smalltalk :-)  This is an OO _system_ shell.  It is designed for optimal convenience when performing system administration type tasks.

                     


                    From: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Burns
                    Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:01 AM
                    To: honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

                     

                    So what is it I can do with msh (pronounced mush or mash? emshuh? mish? mesh? mosh? Umsh?) that I can't do with Perl and .NET? Or is it just that I can do it more elegantly? Or that I get to learn yet another hybrid syntax?
                    Dave

                    On 11/16/06, Daniel Leuck <dan@...> wrote:

                    This already exists.  Python, Perl, and Ruby have been ported to .NET and have full access to the standard libraries.  These languages all have interactive interpreters (language oriented shells), but are not intended as replacements for shells designed primarily for system administration tasks.  PowerShell is a marriage of powerful OO techniques and shell programming.  Its design goals are closer to those of bash than Perl, but with an OO twist.

                     


                    From: honolulu-coders@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: honolulu-coders@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dave Burns
                    Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:30 AM
                    To: honolulu-coders@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows

                     

                    PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files.


                    If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why reinvent the entire wheel?
                    Dave  

                     

                  • Seth Ladd
                    ... Which, as we all know, is how real programmers do it. :P
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                      > Nothing. As Seth would say, the same is true for writing to a disk with magnets :-)

                      Which, as we all know, is how real programmers do it. :P
                    • Thomas Olausson
                      if Powershell uses objects, they should have a Grep object!! :) This was a little lame: ls | findstr something But it s good Microsoft moves in this arena.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                        if Powershell uses objects, they should have a Grep object!! :)

                        This was a little lame:
                        ls | findstr "something"

                        But it's good Microsoft moves in this arena.

                        /Thomas

                        On Nov 16, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Dave Burns wrote:


                        PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working with objects rather than piping around text files.


                        If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why reinvent the entire wheel?
                        Dave



                      • Eraticus Majoricus
                        Of course, if you use a real operating system, you ll have a selection of real shells to choose from :)
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 16, 2006
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                          Of course, if you use a real operating system, you'll have a selection
                          of real shells to choose from :)

                          --- In honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Olausson
                          <thomas.olausson@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > if Powershell uses objects, they should have a Grep object!! :)
                          >
                          > This was a little lame:
                          > ls | findstr "something"
                          >
                          > But it's good Microsoft moves in this arena.
                          >
                          > /Thomas
                          >
                          > On Nov 16, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Dave Burns wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is working
                          > > with objects rather than piping around text files.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my
                          > > favorite language be a better solution than an entire new language?
                          > > Why reinvent the entire wheel?
                          > > Dave
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • J. David Beutel
                          If I needed to learn a language to write .NET system administration scripts, I m not sure that learning a Windows shell language would be a better investment
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 17, 2006
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                            If I needed to learn a language to write .NET system administration
                            scripts, I'm not sure that learning a Windows shell language would be a
                            better investment of my time than learning Ruby.

                            Cheers,
                            11011011

                            "Daniel Leuck" <dan@...> wrote on Thursday, November 16, 2006
                            11:44:31:
                            >
                            > > So what is it I can do with msh (pronounced mush or mash? emshuh?
                            >
                            > > mish? mesh? mosh? Umsh?) that I can't do with Perl and .NET?
                            >
                            > Nothing. As Seth would say, the same is true for writing to a disk
                            > with magnets :-)
                            >
                            > > Or is it just that I can do it more elegantly?
                            >
                            > Exactly.
                            >
                            > > Or that I get to learn yet another hybrid syntax?
                            >
                            > It is a new language, but I don’t know that it’s a "hybrid" anymore
                            > than Java is a hybrid of C++ and Smalltalk :-) This is an OO _system_
                            > shell. It is designed for optimal convenience when performing system
                            > administration type tasks.
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > *From:* honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Dave Burns
                            > *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:01 AM
                            > *To:* honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                            > *Subject:* Re: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows
                            >
                            > So what is it I can do with msh (pronounced mush or mash? emshuh?
                            > mish? mesh? mosh? Umsh?) that I can't do with Perl and .NET? Or is it
                            > just that I can do it more elegantly? Or that I get to learn yet
                            > another hybrid syntax?
                            > Dave
                            >
                            > On 11/16/06, *Daniel Leuck* <dan@... <mailto:dan@...>>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > This already exists. Python, Perl, and Ruby have been ported to .NET
                            > and have full access to the standard libraries. These languages all
                            > have interactive interpreters (language oriented shells), but are not
                            > intended as replacements for shells designed primarily for system
                            > administration tasks. PowerShell is a marriage of powerful OO
                            > techniques and shell programming. Its design goals are closer to those
                            > of bash than Perl, but with an OO twist.
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > *From:* honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                            > honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Dave Burns
                            > *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:30 AM
                            > *To:* honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:honolulu-coders@yahoogroups.com>
                            > *Subject:* Re: [honolulu-coders] Re: Finally: A real shell for Windows
                            >
                            > PowerShell has numerous advantages including the fact it is
                            > working with objects rather than piping around text files.
                            >
                            >
                            > If this is what we want, wouldn't a good API plugged in to my favorite
                            > language be a better solution than an entire new language? Why
                            > reinvent the entire wheel?
                            > Dave
                            >
                            >
                          • Vince Hoang
                            ... The same could be said about bash/zsh versus python/ruby in the *nix world. If you know a few idioms in the prior, you are far more productive as a
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 17, 2006
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                              On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 07:55:12AM -1000, J. David Beutel wrote:
                              > If I needed to learn a language to write .NET system
                              > administration scripts, I'm not sure that learning a Windows
                              > shell language would be a better investment of my time than
                              > learning Ruby.

                              The same could be said about bash/zsh versus python/ruby in the
                              *nix world. If you know a few idioms in the prior, you are far
                              more productive as a sysadmin than one that is not. Once the
                              script gets more than a few lines, you switch to a more flexible
                              langauge.

                              -Vince
                            • J. David Beutel
                              ... I m from the *nix world and use Cygwin (bash) on Windows, so I appreciate the advantages of a CLI. I guess if one knew neither a CLI nor a scripting
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 17, 2006
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                                Vince Hoang <vince@...> wrote on Friday, November 17, 2006 12:50:31:
                                > On Fri, Nov 17, 2006 at 07:55:12AM -1000, J. David Beutel wrote:
                                >
                                >> If I needed to learn a language to write .NET system
                                >> administration scripts, I'm not sure that learning a Windows
                                >> shell language would be a better investment of my time than
                                >> learning Ruby.
                                >>
                                >
                                > The same could be said about bash/zsh versus python/ruby in the
                                > *nix world. If you know a few idioms in the prior, you are far
                                > more productive as a sysadmin than one that is not. Once the
                                > script gets more than a few lines, you switch to a more flexible
                                > langauge.
                                >

                                I'm from the *nix world and use Cygwin (bash) on Windows, so I
                                appreciate the advantages of a CLI. I guess if one knew neither a CLI
                                nor a scripting language, then it might cost less time to learn two
                                birds with one stone. Still, an important factor on the benefit side of
                                the cost/benefit equation is how broadly useful the new knowledge is.
                                This limits the benefit of the knowledge that is useful only on Windows.

                                Cheers,
                                11011011
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