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Re: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

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  • Janet Feldman
    Dear All, I have just seen emails for the first time in abt 6 days, between a project offline and being knocked offline by a severed DSL cable, an experience
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 19, 2006
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      Dear All,

      I have just seen emails for the first time in abt 6 days, between a project offline and being knocked offline by a severed DSL cable, an experience which gives insight into the difficulites of Internet access, no matter where one is located!

      I am forwarding this mail to Holistic Helping, and would appreciate other mails concerning these subjects to be posted to HH as well.

      On your plan, Andrius, I think it's an important aspect of a larger whole, and Jeff's suggestions as well. I do think Sam should investigate and connect with people-orgs-businesses pursuing wifi in Kenya at the current time, and there is a need to investigate how to acquire and pay for this type of connection, both in the immediate term and for the longer term.

      Sam, perhaps we can investigate that, and I believe Maria may have thoughts too. In fact, I see a mail from her which I will read and respond to as soon as I can.

      With blessings, thanks, and very best wishes for the holidays and 2007! Janet



      -----Original Message-----
      >From: ms@...
      >Sent: Dec 15, 2006 11:24 AM
      >To: mendenyo@yahoogroups.com
      >Cc: socialagriculture@yahoogroups.com, backtotheroot@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island
      >
      >I share my letter and chats with our Back To The Root group as well, because
      >we also discuss Jeff Buderer's interests in Integrated Waste and Farm
      >Management as well as Wi-Fi. Jeff and I are planning to transform our
      >BackToTheRoot group to reflect his personal interests and leadership, and
      >we're interested IW&FM as concrete activity that fosters unfolding
      >leadership. Andrius
      >-------------------------
      >
      >Samwel,
      >
      >Here is my plan for your Wi-Fi. I am curious what you think.
      >
      >Our goal is to have a network of WiFi "access points" in Rusinga Island that
      >connect computers to one or more Internet access centers. Normally an
      >"access point" might cover a 100 meter radius but it is possible to adapt
      >them so that they cover 1 kilometer or more. This is a little bit
      >complicated and more expensive than we can do now. But it would mean that
      >everybody in your island could have Internet access because the "access
      >points" can share access with each other. So it is a good goal.
      >
      >How can we start? Here is my idea...
      >Our first goal could be to try to simply set up a local WiFi access point so
      >that two computers could talk to each other. They would not be connected to
      >the Internet but they would be connected to each other. For example, it
      >could be your computer and your laptop. You could practice to see how far
      >away you can move your laptop and still get a signal.
      >
      >Within a few months and some experimentation you might be able to separate
      >them by one kilometer. This might have some practical uses. For example,
      >you might be able to communicate with your neighbors or the school. I'm
      >looking at your map:
      >http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?RusingaIsland
      >
      >You could add more and more access points and learn how to connect them so
      >that they can share information amongst each other.
      >
      >Then one day you will be able to connect to one of the computers at an
      >Internet center. And then you can chat with them, share data files with
      >them, and they can check your mail for you, for example.
      >
      >Finally, there will come a day when you can connect your local network to the
      >Internet. Then everybody in your network will be able to use the Internet.
      >Your community will be its own Internet provider!
      >
      >So that is a plan. And we can send you new and old WiFi equipment. Does
      >your laptop have a WiFi card? And can you buy WiFi equipment there (what are
      >the prices) or is it better to send it?
      >
      >I send my chats with Jeff Buderer - we're excited about the Ghana - Kenya
      >connection and sharing of experience that we look forward to. And also with
      >Rupert Paier of the village of Kirchbach, Austria. Peter on their team has
      >provided Internet access to many villages and people in their region using a
      >wireless technology. Maybe they have some used equipment?
      >
      >Andrius
      >
      >Andrius Kulikauskas
      >Minciu Sodas
      >http://www.ms.lt
      >ms@...
      >Istanbul, Turkey
      >
      >-----------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >Andrius: Hi Jeff, How is everything? I just wanted to check regarding
      >your MyFoodStory team and also check regarding Wi-Fi I had some thoughts.
      >Jeff: hi I have connectivity problems now
      >… I cant do much
      >Andrius: ok
      >Jeff: I will be able to move forward in later part of Dec
      >Andrius: when do you leave for Africa? when will you be there?
      >Jeff: It would be helpful to know of any deadlines
      >Andrius: End of March is our deadline, March 31, 2007
      >Jeff: ok
      >Andrius: for the bonuses
      >… also, let us know how we can support your work and your direction because
      >that is part of the point in the long run
      >Jeff: well I am compiling the stories from various projects
      >Andrius: regarding Samwel's wi-fi I had the idea that it might be
      >expensive to hook him up to the Internet but it might be cheap to hook up two
      >or more computers locally with Wi-Fi. What do you think?
      >Jeff: about samwel that is exactly what we are doing
      >Andrius: That way he would get good practice regarding the
      >technology
      >Jeff: in winneba
      >Andrius: in ghana, yes?
      >Jeff: I told samwel to sighn up to the WILUG discussion group
      >… yes
      >… so he could learn from the process
      >Andrius: is there a website for that?
      >Jeff: www.wilugghana.org
      >… I think your idea is a good one to set up local intranet using wireless
      >… but you still need reliable internet access more than a cybercafe
      >… with Kafui we have the University of Education
      >Andrius: ye
      >… yes
      >… I just figured that what can we do for 500 USD?
      >Jeff: so we can use their facilities
      >Andrius: but we need to start somewhere
      >… so I imagine it's enough to have a local intranet
      >… and that might actually be useful
      >Jeff: you can set up a wireless network for that yes
      >… but you need to consider the ability of the area to recieve the signal
      >… so a network of centers linked up by wireless
      >Andrius: and by demonstrating the usefulness and as Samwel's
      >technical ability grows it is possible to attract more resources so that they
      >can link to the Internet
      >Jeff: and then an open and distance learning progrma emerges
      >Andrius: yes
      >Jeff: and this could include research on agriculture
      >Andrius: yes
      >Jeff: sounds good
      >Andrius: it can be used to save running back and forth, for example,
      >linking up with a school
      >Jeff: we need to be patient with the reality of the Africans
      >… in terms of how they want to go to antipoverty programs and stay in 4star
      >hotels
      >Andrius: or for example knowing whether a particular service (such as
      >Internet access or a medical point) is working that day
      >Jeff: regarding the issue of samwell funding for WSF
      >… I have faced similar dilemma
      >Andrius: I think it's about having a shared culture which means that
      >we agree on the kind of "representation" that we're all comfortable with
      >… so I imagine Samwel wants to project us in a certain way
      >Jeff: thats a good point
      >Andrius: but that's maybe not how I want to work
      >… but he may know better in some ways and I in some
      >Jeff: progressive in the US rarely have a problem with travelling
      >cheap
      >… even Raoul the organizer of many of those conferences stayed at Joy's house
      >on several ocassions!
      >Andrius: yes but there's a whole culture of dressing for business
      >meetings
      >Jeff: hehe
      >Andrius: yes
      >… I just want us to be open about talking through these issues
      >Jeff: So its good you understand Samwel's perspective
      >Andrius: because we're creating precedents
      >… he's such a great guy
      >… if we have a base to stay in Nairobi
      >… then we can be helpful and contribute money there
      >… rather than to a hotel
      >Jeff: yes
      >Andrius: help a family in Nairobi
      >… and be helped by them
      >… Maybe Ken Owino could provide lodging and food and we could provide money
      >Jeff: I will ask Kennedy Odhiambo
      >Andrius: Also, for example, with Agnese I am sure that he had a
      >different arrangement because he was helping her get a good rate in Nairobi
      >… for her transit I imagine
      >… so it's all a matter of judgement and circumstances
      >… $30 a night is not a lot but it is more than I have and I believe it is not
      >necessary but also in this case not helpful, counterproductive
      >… thank you
      >Jeff: ok hey lets talk later next week I hope to be in a better
      >position to communciate
      >Andrius: What are your dates in Africa?
      >… And I will share our chat
      >Jeff: we have not established the dates yet
      >… we have some bottlenecks we have to address
      >… Joy had surgery on her foot
      >… I have problems with passport being stuck in Indian Consulate
      >… stuff like that
      >Andrius: and just briefly how can we best channel energy to support
      >you on IW&FM
      >Jeff: Well we need to further develop the wiki
      >… and improve documentation of the process
      >… for eventual development of nice website and presentation
      >Andrius: ok, and our wiki will get improved in one week, Helmut has
      >completed the beta
      >Jeff: great
      >Andrius: and where do you want to collect IW&FM people, at Back to
      >the Root
      >… ?
      >… that might help add some purpose to that group
      >… try to use IW&FM as a methodology that helps people grow
      >Jeff: thats a good point
      >Andrius: becauseit's an unfolding project
      >… you keep building on it
      >… just as you keep building on your character
      >Jeff: why dont you offer some of your ideas about in back to the
      >root
      >Andrius: ok
      >Jeff: and then i will respond later this next week
      >Andrius: yes
      >… hi to Joy
      >Jeff: sounds good
      >… ok
      >… Thanks for the payment
      >Andrius: yes, thank you!
      >Jeff: you money is going towards establishment of first open
      >digitial village which is to be located in winneba
      >Andrius: that's great news!
      >Jeff: so it has the potential to come full circle
      >Andrius: and it's wonderful how your knowledge there is coming over
      >to Kenya, yes
      >Jeff: meaning that our work could possibly iimpact samwel
      >… yes
      >Andrius: that's a wonderful example
      >… yes
      >Jeff: talk later
      >Andrius: peace
      >Jeff: peace
      >
      >--------------------------------
      >
      >Andrius: Hi Rupert, How are you? This is Andrius Kulikauskas. I
      >have some questions about Wi-Fi
      >… We want to set up a Wi-Fi intranet in Rusinga Island in Lake Victoria in
      >Kenya.
      >Rupert: hello
      >… how can you help
      >Andrius: hi
      >… We have 500 USD for equipment
      >… and we hope to get more in the future
      >… Currently that is not enough to get Internet access for them.
      >… But I think that they could set up a local intranet based on wi-fi
      >… and practice and also find some local applications for sending data around
      >Rupert: what area you want to distribute with internet
      >Andrius: So I'm wondering if in Kirchbach what you know about
      >WiFi
      >Rupert: is this a WLAN system or really a WiFi system ?
      >Andrius: I think that they are about 10 Km from an Internet access
      >point
      >… really WiFi
      >Rupert: could it be a point-to-point connection ?
      >Andrius: they are 5 Km from basic Internet access point and 10 Km
      >from a good one
      >… yes I think
      >Rupert: between this 2 points ?
      >Andrius: Ultimately the goal would be to connect everybody to the
      >Internet using point-to-point connections
      >… but currently I think that's too expenseive.
      >… So my idea is just to locally set up a wi-fi connection between two or more
      >computers
      >… and develop the use and push the technology until we have the resources
      >… to connect them to the Internet
      >… Is that logical?
      >… Also, I'm wondering if you are using point-to-point connections in
      >Kirchbach (I'm thinking of Peter)
      >Rupert: are the 2 points (10km) visible from each other so that we
      >could setup a point-to-point link
      >Andrius: and perhaps he may have some older equipment
      >Rupert: we are using it but the distances are just a few 100
      >meters
      >Andrius: I confess I'm not sure about the distances
      >… I just made those up
      >Rupert: a new WLAN router costs 70€ and a antenna is about 50€
      >… but the issue is to bridge the 5km or 10km that needs expensive powerfull
      >equipement
      >Andrius: Here is a map:
      >http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?RusingaIsland
      >… It shows the Internet access points
      >… Looks like the island is 8 kilometers across
      >Rupert: when should the project be started ?
      >Andrius: we'd like to roll it out during the coming year
      >… perhaps practice in the beginning of the year
      >Rupert: i check what can be done with 500 US$ - let u know until
      >next week tuesday
      >Andrius: and have something fulling working by the end of the
      >year
      >… that would be great
      >… so you understand the idea
      >… also there may be older equipment that we might use?
      >… fantastic
      >Rupert: ok talk to you on tuesday afternoon . bye
      >Andrius: bye
      >… I will share our chat
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Jeff Buderer
      Asif, There is a discussion group that discusses these issues. http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/wsfii-discuss Please feel free to join us there and
      Message 2 of 9 , May 26, 2007
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        Asif,

      • subscribe@studynook.com
        Jeff: Thanks for the resource - I will join as soon as I can. Asif. _____ From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On
        Message 3 of 9 , May 26, 2007
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          Jeff:

          Thanks for the resource - I will join as soon as I can.
           
          Asif.


          From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
          Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 10:35 AM
          To: socialagriculture@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          Asif,

          There is a discussion group that discusses these issues.

          http://lists. okfn.org/ mailman/listinfo /wsfii-discuss

          Please feel free to join us there and continue the discussion. The people who are from all over the world are highly technical people who have designed software, deployed wireless networks and are running. The group has 400 members.

          If you or anyone here is serious about considering getting involved in the deployment of wireless systems in Africa I suggest they join and consider the experiences and wisdom of this network as a wonderful resource.

          Jeff

          -----Original Message-----
          From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
          Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:43 AM
          To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          Hi Jeff:

          By next year, you will be able to get phones with Wi-Max:

          http://www.fastcurs or.com/phones/ nokia-wimax- phones.asp

          Asif.


          From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
          Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 2:02 AM
          To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          Asif,

          OVF has considered such a system for deployment in Ghana . The system costs about 30-50k to set up and licencing is also needed in most regions so add another 10k. So this is not something you just do…it takes a lot of time training resources and planning.

          Most Community Wireless Networks use Wi-Fi…for obvious reasons you can buy a router for less than $50. So you can build an wifi network incrementally but investing in WiMAX is all up front so that makes it prohibitively expensive for most grassroots networks

          See http://www.cuwirele ss.net/ for more about Community Wireless Networks and also www.wsfii.org

          Jeff

          -----Original Message-----
          From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
          Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:03 PM
          To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          Jeff:

          I was responding to the e-mail underneath that talks to Samwel about Wi-Fi and the Subject area above. I agree Wi-Max has not caught on, but if there is multiple expenditures for multiple Wi-Fi sites to reach a point then Wi-Max would cover it better. It is also better to one up the technology rather then trying to play catch-up - because the opportunity may not arise again. It's like buying a lower powered PC only to find out that you are obsolete with ability to use other technologies within a year. Yes, I understand money and resources are an issue - but I was just making a point for someone to consider. Besides, prices are dropping considerably. Sorry Wi-Max is a 30 mile radius and Wi-Fi is a 300 foot radius - I got my numbers wrong. http://computer. howstuffworks. com/wimax1. htm We have installed these in other places and have had much success.

          Asif.


          From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
          Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:05 PM
          To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          Asif,

          I was with Wireless Community Network organizers and geeks in DC from all over the world just last weekend. There was hardly unamious agreement with the statement you make below.

          WiMAX has its advantages but it is much expensive to set up and few community networks are embracing this technology at this time.

          The wireless number sounds good but the WiMAX is 30km not 300.

          Also I am wondering what this has to do with Social Agriculture?

          See my report on the conference I attended in DC

          http://opendigitalv illage.org/ ?p=28

          Jeff

          -----Original Message-----
          From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
          Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 7:23 AM
          To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          You are better off using Wi-Max than Wi-Fi. Wi-max covers 300 Kms whereas Wi-Fi covers 300 meters...... or something close to that range.

          Asif.


          From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of markus petz
          Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 2:24 AM
          To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com; BacktotheRoot
          Subject: Re: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

          it would be good to know.

          1. Did this "unfolding leadership" happen. And is IW &
          FM the topic??

          2. How the 3 stage plan progresses for wifi. AS in
          each stage problems and issues and how well it works
          as it is progressed along. then we can have this as a
          pattern for others to follow.

          markus

          --- ms@... wrote:

          > I share my letter and chats with our Back To The
          > Root
          group as well, because
          > we also discuss Jeff Buderer's interests
          in
          > Integrated Waste and Farm
          > Management as well as Wi-Fi. Jeff
          and I are
          > planning to transform our
          > BackToTheRoot group to
          reflect his personal
          > interests and leadership, and
          > we're
          interested IW&FM as concrete activity that
          > fosters unfolding
          >
          leadership. Andrius
          > ------------ --------- ----
          >
          >
          Samwel,
          >
          > Here is my plan for your Wi-Fi. I am curious
          what
          > you think.
          >
          > Our goal is to have a network of WiFi
          "access
          > points" in Rusinga Island that
          > connect computers to one
          or more Internet access
          > centers. Normally an
          > "access point"
          might cover a 100 meter radius but it
          > is possible to adapt
          > them
          so that they cover 1 kilometer or more. This
          > is a little bit
          >
          complicated and more expensive than we can do now.
          > But it would mean
          that
          > everybody in your island could have Internet access
          > because
          the "access
          > points" can share access with each other. So it is
          > a
          good goal.
          >
          > How can we start? Here is my idea...
          > Our
          first goal could be to try to simply set up a
          > local WiFi access point
          so
          > that two computers could talk to each other. They
          > would not
          be connected to
          > the Internet but they would be connected to each
          >
          other. For example, it
          > could be your computer and your laptop. You
          could
          > practice to see how far
          > away you can move your laptop and
          still get a
          > signal.
          >
          > Within a few months and some
          experimentation you
          > might be able to separate
          > them by one
          kilometer. This might have some
          > practical uses. For example,
          > you
          might be able to communicate with your neighbors
          > or the school.
          I'm
          > looking at your map:
          >
          href="http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?RusingaIsland">http://www.ourcultu re.info/wiki. cgi?RusingaIslan d
          >
          > You could add more and more access points and learn
          > how to
          connect them so
          > that they can share information amongst each
          other.
          >
          > Then one day you will be able to connect to one
          of
          > the computers at an
          > Internet center. And then you can chat
          with them,
          > share data files with
          > them, and they can check your
          mail for you, for
          > example.
          >
          > Finally, there will come a
          day when you can connect
          > your local network to the
          > Internet.
          Then everybody in your network will be
          > able to use the Internet.
          > Your community will be its own Internet provider!
          >
          > So
          that is a plan. And we can send you new and old
          > WiFi equipment.
          Does
          > your laptop have a WiFi card? And can you buy WiFi
          >
          equipment there (what are
          > the prices) or is it better to send
          it?
          >
          > I send my chats with Jeff Buderer - we're excited
          >
          about the Ghana - Kenya
          > connection and sharing of experience that we
          look
          > forward to. And also with
          > Rupert Paier of the village of
          Kirchbach, Austria.
          > Peter on their team has
          > provided Internet
          access to many villages and people
          > in their region using a
          >
          wireless technology. Maybe they have some used
          > equipment?
          >
          > Andrius
          >
          > Andrius Kulikauskas
          > Minciu
          Sodas
          > http://www.ms. lt
          >
          href="mailto:ms%40ms.lt">ms@...
          > Istanbul, Turkey
          >
          >
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
          >
          > Andrius: Hi Jeff, How is everything? I just
          > wanted to check
          regarding
          > your MyFoodStory team and also check regarding Wi-Fi
          > I
          had some thoughts.
          > Jeff: hi I have connectivity problems now
          > … I
          cant do much
          > Andrius: ok
          > Jeff: I will be able to move forward
          in
          > later part of Dec
          > Andrius: when do you leave for Africa?
          when
          > will you be there?
          > Jeff: It would be helpful to know of
          any
          > deadlines
          > Andrius: End of March is our deadline,
          March
          > 31, 2007
          > Jeff: ok
          > Andrius: for the bonuses
          >
          … also, let us know how we can support your work and
          > your direction
          because
          > that is part of the point in the long run
          > Jeff: well I
          am compiling the stories from
          > various projects
          > Andrius:
          regarding Samwel's wi-fi I had the
          > idea that it might be
          >
          expensive to hook him up to the Internet but it
          > might be cheap to hook
          up two
          > or more computers locally with Wi-Fi. What do you
          >
          think?
          > Jeff: about samwel that is exactly what we
          > are
          doing
          > Andrius: That way he would get good practice
          > regarding
          the
          > technology
          > Jeff: in winneba
          > Andrius: in ghana,
          yes?
          > Jeff: I told samwel to sighn up to the
          > WILUG discussion
          group
          > … yes
          > … so he could learn from the process
          >
          Andrius: is there a website for that?
          > Jeff:
          www.wilugghana. org
          > … I think your idea is a good one to set up
          local
          > intranet using wireless
          > … but you still need reliable
          internet access more
          > than a cybercafe
          > … with Kafui we have the
          University of Education
          > Andrius: ye
          > … yes
          > … I just
          figured that what can we do for 500 USD?
          > Jeff: so we can use their
          facilities
          > Andrius: but we need to start somewhere
          > … so I
          imagine it's enough to have a local intranet
          > … and that might actually
          be useful
          > Jeff: you can set up a wireless network for
          > that
          yes
          > … but you need to consider the ability of the area
          > to
          recieve the signal
          > … so a network of centers linked up by
          wireless
          > Andrius: and by demonstrating the usefulness
          > and as
          Samwel's
          > technical ability grows it is possible to attract
          > more
          resources so that they
          > can link to the Internet
          > Jeff: and then
          an open and distance
          > learning progrma emerges
          > Andrius:
          yes
          > Jeff: and this could include research on
          > agriculture
          >
          Andrius: yes
          > Jeff: sounds good
          > Andrius: it can be used to save
          running back
          > and forth, for example,
          > linking up with a
          school
          > Jeff: we need to be patient with the
          > reality of the
          Africans
          > … in terms of how they want to go to antipoverty
          >
          programs and stay in 4star
          > hotels
          > Andrius: or for example
          knowing whether a
          > particular service (such as
          > Internet access or
          a medical point) is working that
          > day
          > Jeff: regarding the issue
          of samwell
          > funding for WSF
          > … I have faced similar
          dilemma
          > Andrius: I think it's about having a shared
          > culture
          which means that
          > we agree on the kind of "representation" that
          we're
          > all comfortable with
          > … so I imagine Samwel wants to
          project us in a
          > certain way
          > Jeff: thats a good point
          >
          Andrius: but that's maybe not how I want to
          > work
          > … but he may
          know better in some ways and I in some
          > Jeff: progressive in the US
          rarely have a
          > problem with travelling
          > cheap
          > … even Raoul
          the organizer of many of those
          > conferences stayed at Joy's house
          >
          on several ocassions!
          > Andrius: yes but there's a whole culture
          of
          > dressing for business
          >
          === message truncated ===

          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          | |
          | _------_ ô _------_ |
          | --- *V* --- |
          | / \ |
          | x x |
          | |
          | Marcus Petz |
          | |
          | Feed the raven and the white tailed eagles |
          | For the dawn is almost upon us |
          | I see it shining and will not sheath the sword |
          | May we die with it in our grasp... |
          | |
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
          http://secure. hospitalityclub. org/hc/travel. php?cid=markuspe tz

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
          now.
          http://uk.answers. yahoo.com/

        • Jeff Buderer
          Asif, Feel free to introduce yourself and state your interests when you join. Possibly that could be a topic of one of your Webinars? Something about the role
          Message 4 of 9 , May 26, 2007
          • 0 Attachment

            (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
          • subscribe@studynook.com
            Jeff: You are of great help. The only issue that may come up is that we are not in the Public Domain. So rethink that. But they can register and view
            Message 5 of 9 , May 26, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Jeff:

              You are of great help. The only issue that may come up is that we are not in the Public Domain. So rethink that. But they can register and view everything - they just can't take it and sell it. We will be Podcasting materials next.....esp. onto mobiles.
               
              Asif


              From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
              Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:07 PM
              To: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: socialagriculture@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

              Asif,

              Feel free to introduce yourself and state your interests when you join.

              Possibly that could be a topic of one of your Webinars?

              Something about the role of wireless in bridging the digital divide?

              I am confident we could get someone to present from that network (and/or or the conference I participated in) on this topic.

              Jeff

              -----Original Message-----
              From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
              Sent:
              Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:57 AM
              To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              Jeff:

              Thanks for the resource - I will join as soon as I can.

              Asif.


              From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
              Sent:
              Saturday, May 26, 2007 10:35 AM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
              Cc: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              Asif,

              There is a discussion group that discusses these issues.

              http://lists. okfn.org/ mailman/listinfo /wsfii-discuss

              Please feel free to join us there and continue the discussion. The people who are from all over the world are highly technical people who have designed software, deployed wireless networks and are running. The group has 400 members.

              If you or anyone here is serious about considering getting involved in the deployment of wireless systems in Africa I suggest they join and consider the experiences and wisdom of this network as a wonderful resource.

              Jeff

              -----Original Message-----
              From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
              Sent:
              Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:43 AM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              Hi Jeff:

              By next year, you will be able to get phones with Wi-Max:

              http://www.fastcurs or.com/phones/ nokia-wimax- phones.asp

              Asif.


              From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
              Sent:
              Saturday, May 26, 2007 2:02 AM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              Asif,

              OVF has considered such a system for deployment in Ghana. The system costs about 30-50k to set up and licencing is also needed in most regions so add another 10k. So this is not something you just do…it takes a lot of time training resources and planning.

              Most Community Wireless Networks use Wi-Fi…for obvious reasons you can buy a router for less than $50. So you can build an wifi network incrementally but investing in WiMAX is all up front so that makes it prohibitively expensive for most grassroots networks

              See http://www.cuwirele ss.net/ for more about Community Wireless Networks and also www.wsfii.org

              Jeff

              -----Original Message-----
              From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
              Sent:
              Friday, May 25, 2007 3:03 PM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              Jeff:

              I was responding to the e-mail underneath that talks to Samwel about Wi-Fi and the Subject area above. I agree Wi-Max has not caught on, but if there is multiple expenditures for multiple Wi-Fi sites to reach a point then Wi-Max would cover it better. It is also better to one up the technology rather then trying to play catch-up - because the opportunity may not arise again. It's like buying a lower powered PC only to find out that you are obsolete with ability to use other technologies within a year. Yes, I understand money and resources are an issue - but I was just making a point for someone to consider. Besides, prices are dropping considerably. Sorry Wi-Max is a 30 mile radius and Wi-Fi is a 300 foot radius - I got my numbers wrong. http://computer. howstuffworks. com/wimax1. htm We have installed these in other places and have had much success.

              Asif.


              From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
              Sent:
              Friday, May 25, 2007 3:05 PM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              Asif,

              I was with Wireless Community Network organizers and geeks in DC from all over the world just last weekend. There was hardly unamious agreement with the statement you make below.

              WiMAX has its advantages but it is much expensive to set up and few community networks are embracing this technology at this time.

              The wireless number sounds good but the WiMAX is 30km not 300.

              Also I am wondering what this has to do with Social Agriculture?

              See my report on the conference I attended in DC

              http://opendigitalv illage.org/ ?p=28

              Jeff

              -----Original Message-----
              From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
              Sent:
              Friday, May 25, 2007 7:23 AM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              You are better off using Wi-Max than Wi-Fi. Wi-max covers 300 Kms whereas Wi-Fi covers 300 meters...... or something close to that range.

              Asif.


              From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of markus petz
              Sent:
              Friday, May 25, 2007 2:24 AM
              To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com; BacktotheRoot
              Subject: Re: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in
              Rusinga Island

              it would be good to know.

              1. Did this "unfolding leadership" happen. And is IW &
              FM the topic??

              2. How the 3 stage plan progresses for wifi. AS in
              each stage problems and issues and how well it works
              as it is progressed along. then we can have this as a
              pattern for others to follow.

              markus

              --- ms@... wrote:

              > I share my letter and chats with our Back To The
              > Root
              group as well, because
              > we also discuss Jeff Buderer's interests
              in
              > Integrated Waste and Farm
              > Management as well as Wi-Fi. Jeff
              and I are
              > planning to transform our
              > BackToTheRoot group to
              reflect his personal
              > interests and leadership, and
              > we're
              interested IW&FM as concrete activity that
              > fosters unfolding
              >
              leadership. Andrius
              > ------------ --------- ----
              >
              >
              Samwel,
              >
              > Here is my plan for your Wi-Fi. I am curious
              what
              > you think.
              >
              > Our goal is to have a network of WiFi
              "access
              > points" in Rusinga Island that
              > connect computers to one
              or more Internet access
              > centers. Normally an
              > "access point"
              might cover a 100 meter radius but it
              > is possible to adapt
              > them
              so that they cover 1 kilometer or more. This
              > is a little bit
              >
              complicated and more expensive than we can do now.
              > But it would mean
              that
              > everybody in your island could have Internet access
              > because
              the "access
              > points" can share access with each other. So it is
              > a
              good goal.
              >
              > How can we start? Here is my idea...
              > Our
              first goal could be to try to simply set up a
              > local WiFi access point
              so
              > that two computers could talk to each other. They
              > would not
              be connected to
              > the Internet but they would be connected to each
              >
              other. For example, it
              > could be your computer and your laptop. You
              could
              > practice to see how far
              > away you can move your laptop and
              still get a
              > signal.
              >
              > Within a few months and some
              experimentation you
              > might be able to separate
              > them by one
              kilometer. This might have some
              > practical uses. For example,
              > you
              might be able to communicate with your neighbors
              > or the school.
              I'm
              > looking at your map:
              >
              href="http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?RusingaIsland">http://www.ourcultu re.info/wiki. cgi?RusingaIslan d
              >
              > You could add more and more access points and learn
              > how to
              connect them so
              > that they can share information amongst each
              other.
              >
              > Then one day you will be able to connect to one
              of
              > the computers at an
              > Internet center. And then you can chat
              with them,
              > share data files with
              > them, and they can check your
              mail for you, for
              > example.
              >
              > Finally, there will come a
              day when you can connect
              > your local network to the
              > Internet.
              Then everybody in your network will be
              > able to use the Internet.
              > Your community will be its own Internet provider!
              >
              > So
              that is a plan. And we can send you new and old
              > WiFi equipment.
              Does
              > your laptop have a WiFi card? And can you buy WiFi
              >
              equipment there (what are
              > the prices) or is it better to send
              it?
              >
              > I send my chats with Jeff Buderer - we're excited
              >
              about the
              Ghana - Kenya
              > connection and sharing of experience that we
              look
              > forward to. And also with
              > Rupert Paier of the village of
              Kirchbach , Austria .
              > Peter on their
              team has
              > provided Internet access to many villages and people
              > in
              their region using a
              > wireless technology. Maybe they have some
              used
              > equipment?
              >
              > Andrius
              >
              > Andrius
              Kulikauskas
              > Minciu Sodas
              >
              href="http://www.ms.lt">http://www.ms. lt
              >
              href="mailto:ms%40ms.lt">ms@...
              > Istanbul ,
              Turkey
              >
              >
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
              >
              > Andrius: Hi Jeff, How is everything? I just
              > wanted to check
              regarding
              > your MyFoodStory team and also check regarding Wi-Fi
              > I
              had some thoughts.
              > Jeff: hi I have connectivity problems now
              > … I
              cant do much
              > Andrius: ok
              > Jeff: I will be able to move forward
              in
              > later part of Dec
              > Andrius: when do you leave for
              Africa ? when
              > will you be there?
              > Jeff: It would be
              helpful to know of any
              > deadlines
              > Andrius: End of March is our
              deadline, March
              > 31, 2007
              > Jeff: ok
              > Andrius: for the
              bonuses
              > … also, let us know how we can support your work and
              >
              your direction because
              > that is part of the point in the long run
              >
              Jeff: well I am compiling the stories from
              > various projects
              >
              Andrius: regarding Samwel's wi-fi I had the
              > idea that it might
              be
              > expensive to hook him up to the Internet but it
              > might be
              cheap to hook up two
              > or more computers locally with Wi-Fi. What do
              you
              > think?
              > Jeff: about samwel that is exactly what we
              >
              are doing
              > Andrius: That way he would get good practice
              > regarding
              the
              > technology
              > Jeff: in winneba
              > Andrius: in
              ghana , yes?
              > Jeff: I told samwel to sighn up to
              the
              > WILUG discussion group
              > … yes
              > … so he could learn
              from the process
              > Andrius: is there a website for that?
              > Jeff:
              www.wilugghana. org
              > … I think your idea is a good one to set up
              local
              > intranet using wireless
              > … but you still need reliable
              internet access more
              > than a cybercafe
              > … with Kafui we have the
              University of Education
              > Andrius:
              ye
              > … yes
              > … I just figured that what can we do for 500
              USD?
              > Jeff: so we can use their facilities
              > Andrius: but we need
              to start somewhere
              > … so I imagine it's enough to have a local
              intranet
              > … and that might actually be useful
              > Jeff: you can set
              up a wireless network for
              > that yes
              > … but you need to consider
              the ability of the area
              > to recieve the signal
              > … so a network of
              centers linked up by wireless
              > Andrius: and by demonstrating the
              usefulness
              > and as Samwel's
              > technical ability grows it is
              possible to attract
              > more resources so that they
              > can link to the
              Internet
              > Jeff: and then an open and distance
              > learning progrma
              emerges
              > Andrius: yes
              > Jeff: and this could include research
              on
              > agriculture
              > Andrius: yes
              > Jeff: sounds good
              >
              Andrius: it can be used to save running back
              > and forth, for
              example,
              > linking up with a school
              > Jeff: we need to be patient
              with the
              > reality of the Africans
              > … in terms of how they want to
              go to antipoverty
              > programs and stay in 4star
              > hotels
              >
              Andrius: or for example knowing whether a
              > particular service (such
              as
              > Internet access or a medical point) is working that
              >
              day
              > Jeff: regarding the issue of samwell
              > funding for WSF
              >
              … I have faced similar dilemma
              > Andrius: I think it's about having a
              shared
              > culture which means that
              > we agree on the kind of
              "representation" that we're
              > all comfortable with
              > … so I imagine
              Samwel wants to project us in a
              > certain way
              > Jeff: thats a good
              point
              > Andrius: but that's maybe not how I want to
              > work
              > …
              but he may know better in some ways and I in some
              > Jeff: progressive in
              the US rarely have a
              > problem with
              travelling
              > cheap
              > … even Raoul the organizer of many of
              those
              > conferences stayed at Joy's house
              > on several
              ocassions!
              > Andrius: yes but there's a whole culture of
              > dressing
              for business
              >
              === message truncated ===

              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
              | |
              | _------_ ô _------_ |
              | --- *V* --- |
              | / \ |
              | x x |
              | |
              | Marcus Petz |
              | |
              | Feed the raven and the white tailed eagles |
              | For the dawn is almost upon us |
              | I see it shining and will not sheath the sword |
              | May we die with it in our grasp... |
              | |
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
              http://secure. hospitalityclub. org/hc/travel. php?cid=markuspe tz

              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
              now.
              http://uk.answers. yahoo.com/

            • Jeff Buderer
              Asif, Well so do you want me to invite someone from wsfii to present at a webinar, or maybe you could join wsfii discuss and then make the request yourself and
              Message 6 of 9 , May 27, 2007
              • 0 Attachment

                Asif,

                 

                Well so do you want me to invite someone from wsfii to present at a webinar, or maybe you could join wsfii discuss and then make the request yourself and introduce yourself and outline some of your ideas in relation to some of your ideas about wireless and what you would like to discuss in the Webinar.



                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

              • subscribe@studynook.com
                Jeff: Since you know who are qualified for what that would be great if you could recommend someone I talk to. Maybe you could present? Thanks Asif. _____ From:
                Message 7 of 9 , May 27, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jeff:

                  Since you know who are qualified for what that would be great if you could recommend someone I talk to.
                  Maybe you could present?
                   
                  Thanks
                   
                  Asif.


                  From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                  Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 4:41 AM
                  To: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Asif,

                  Well so do you want me to invite someone from wsfii to present at a webinar, or maybe you could join wsfii discuss and then make the request yourself and introduce yourself and outline some of your ideas in relation to some of your ideas about wireless and what you would like to discuss in the Webinar.

                  Let me know how you would like to proceed.

                  Jeff

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                  Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:43 PM
                  To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Jeff:

                  You are of great help. The only issue that may come up is that we are not in the Public Domain. So rethink that. But they can register and view everything - they just can't take it and sell it. We will be Podcasting materials next.....esp. onto mobiles.

                  Asif


                  From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                  Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:07 PM
                  To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                  Cc: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Asif,

                  Feel free to introduce yourself and state your interests when you join.

                  Possibly that could be a topic of one of your Webinars?

                  Something about the role of wireless in bridging the digital divide?

                  I am confident we could get someone to present from that network (and/or or the conference I participated in) on this topic.

                  Jeff

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                  Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:57 AM
                  To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Jeff:

                  Thanks for the resource - I will join as soon as I can.

                  Asif.


                  From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                  Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 10:35 AM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Cc: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Asif,

                  There is a discussion group that discusses these issues.

                  http://lists. okfn..org/ mailman/listinfo /wsfii-discuss

                  Please feel free to join us there and continue the discussion. The people who are from all over the world are highly technical people who have designed software, deployed wireless networks and are running. The group has 400 members.

                  If you or anyone here is serious about considering getting involved in the deployment of wireless systems in Africa I suggest they join and consider the experiences and wisdom of this network as a wonderful resource.

                  Jeff

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                  Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:43 AM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Hi Jeff:

                  By next year, you will be able to get phones with Wi-Max:

                  http://www.fastcurs or.com/phones/ nokia-wimax- phones.asp

                  Asif.


                  From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                  Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 2:02 AM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Asif,

                  OVF has considered such a system for deployment in Ghana . The system costs about 30-50k to set up and licencing is also needed in most regions so add another 10k. So this is not something you just do…it takes a lot of time training resources and planning.

                  Most Community Wireless Networks use Wi-Fi…for obvious reasons you can buy a router for less than $50. So you can build an wifi network incrementally but investing in WiMAX is all up front so that makes it prohibitively expensive for most grassroots networks

                  See http://www.cuwirele ss.net/ for more about Community Wireless Networks and also www.wsfii.org

                  Jeff

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:03 PM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Jeff:

                  I was responding to the e-mail underneath that talks to Samwel about Wi-Fi and the Subject area above. I agree Wi-Max has not caught on, but if there is multiple expenditures for multiple Wi-Fi sites to reach a point then Wi-Max would cover it better. It is also better to one up the technology rather then trying to play catch-up - because the opportunity may not arise again. It's like buying a lower powered PC only to find out that you are obsolete with ability to use other technologies within a year. Yes, I understand money and resources are an issue - but I was just making a point for someone to consider. Besides, prices are dropping considerably. Sorry Wi-Max is a 30 mile radius and Wi-Fi is a 300 foot radius - I got my numbers wrong. http://computer. howstuffworks. com/wimax1. htm We have installed these in other places and have had much success.

                  Asif.


                  From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:05 PM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  Asif,

                  I was with Wireless Community Network organizers and geeks in DC from all over the world just last weekend. There was hardly unamious agreement with the statement you make below.

                  WiMAX has its advantages but it is much expensive to set up and few community networks are embracing this technology at this time.

                  The wireless number sounds good but the WiMAX is 30km not 300.

                  Also I am wondering what this has to do with Social Agriculture?

                  See my report on the conference I attended in DC

                  http://opendigitalv illage.org/ ?p=28

                  Jeff

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 7:23 AM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  You are better off using Wi-Max than Wi-Fi. Wi-max covers 300 Kms whereas Wi-Fi covers 300 meters...... or something close to that range.

                  Asif.


                  From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of markus petz
                  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 2:24 AM
                  To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com; BacktotheRoot
                  Subject: Re: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                  it would be good to know.

                  1. Did this "unfolding leadership" happen. And is IW &
                  FM the topic??

                  2. How the 3 stage plan progresses for wifi. AS in
                  each stage problems and issues and how well it works
                  as it is progressed along. then we can have this as a
                  pattern for others to follow.

                  markus

                  --- ms@... wrote:

                  > I share my letter and chats with our Back To The
                  > Root
                  group as well, because
                  > we also discuss Jeff Buderer's interests
                  in
                  > Integrated Waste and Farm
                  > Management as well as Wi-Fi. Jeff
                  and I are
                  > planning to transform our
                  > BackToTheRoot group to
                  reflect his personal
                  > interests and leadership, and
                  > we're
                  interested IW&FM as concrete activity that
                  > fosters unfolding
                  >
                  leadership. Andrius
                  > ------------ --------- ----
                  >
                  >
                  Samwel,
                  >
                  > Here is my plan for your Wi-Fi. I am curious
                  what
                  > you think.
                  >
                  > Our goal is to have a network of WiFi
                  "access
                  > points" in Rusinga Island that
                  > connect computers to one
                  or more Internet access
                  > centers. Normally an
                  > "access point"
                  might cover a 100 meter radius but it
                  > is possible to adapt
                  > them
                  so that they cover 1 kilometer or more. This
                  > is a little bit
                  >
                  complicated and more expensive than we can do now.
                  > But it would mean
                  that
                  > everybody in your island could have Internet access
                  > because
                  the "access
                  > points" can share access with each other. So it is
                  > a
                  good goal.
                  >
                  > How can we start? Here is my idea...
                  > Our
                  first goal could be to try to simply set up a
                  > local WiFi access point
                  so
                  > that two computers could talk to each other. They
                  > would not
                  be connected to
                  > the Internet but they would be connected to each
                  >
                  other. For example, it
                  > could be your computer and your laptop. You
                  could
                  > practice to see how far
                  > away you can move your laptop and
                  still get a
                  > signal.
                  >
                  > Within a few months and some
                  experimentation you
                  > might be able to separate
                  > them by one
                  kilometer. This might have some
                  > practical uses. For example,
                  > you
                  might be able to communicate with your neighbors
                  > or the school.
                  I'm
                  > looking at your map:
                  >
                  href="http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?RusingaIsland">http://www.ourcultu re.info/wiki. cgi?RusingaIslan d
                  >
                  > You could add more and more access points and learn
                  > how to
                  connect them so
                  > that they can share information amongst each
                  other.
                  >
                  > Then one day you will be able to connect to one
                  of
                  > the computers at an
                  > Internet center. And then you can chat
                  with them,
                  > share data files with
                  > them, and they can check your
                  mail for you, for
                  > example.
                  >
                  > Finally, there will come a
                  day when you can connect
                  > your local network to the
                  > Internet.
                  Then everybody in your network will be
                  > able to use the Internet.
                  > Your community will be its own Internet provider!
                  >
                  > So
                  that is a plan. And we can send you new and old
                  > WiFi equipment.
                  Does
                  > your laptop have a WiFi card? And can you buy WiFi
                  >
                  equipment there (what are
                  > the prices) or is it better to send
                  it?
                  >
                  > I send my chats with Jeff Buderer - we're excited
                  >
                  about the Ghana - Kenya
                  >
                  connection and sharing of experience that we look
                  > forward to. And also
                  with
                  > Rupert Paier of the village of Kirchbach ,
                  Austria .
                  > Peter on their team has
                  > provided
                  Internet access to many villages and people
                  > in their region using
                  a
                  > wireless technology. Maybe they have some used
                  >
                  equipment?
                  >
                  > Andrius
                  >
                  > Andrius Kulikauskas
                  >
                  Minciu Sodas
                  >
                  href="http://www.ms.lt">http://www.ms. lt
                  >
                  href="mailto:ms%40ms.lt">ms@...
                  > Istanbul ,
                  Turkey
                  >
                  >
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  >
                  > Andrius: Hi Jeff, How is everything? I just
                  > wanted to check
                  regarding
                  > your MyFoodStory team and also check regarding Wi-Fi
                  > I
                  had some thoughts.
                  > Jeff: hi I have connectivity problems now
                  > … I
                  cant do much
                  > Andrius: ok
                  > Jeff: I will be able to move forward
                  in
                  > later part of Dec
                  > Andrius: when do you leave for
                  Africa ? when
                  > will you be there?
                  > Jeff: It would be
                  helpful to know of any
                  > deadlines
                  > Andrius: End of March is our
                  deadline, March
                  > 31, 2007
                  > Jeff: ok
                  > Andrius: for the
                  bonuses
                  > … also, let us know how we can support your work and
                  >
                  your direction because
                  > that is part of the point in the long run
                  >
                  Jeff: well I am compiling the stories from
                  > various projects
                  >
                  Andrius: regarding Samwel's wi-fi I had the
                  > idea that it might
                  be
                  > expensive to hook him up to the Internet but it
                  > might be
                  cheap to hook up two
                  > or more computers locally with Wi-Fi. What do
                  you
                  > think?
                  > Jeff: about samwel that is exactly what we
                  >
                  are doing
                  > Andrius: That way he would get good practice
                  > regarding
                  the
                  > technology
                  > Jeff: in winneba
                  > Andrius: in
                  ghana , yes?
                  > Jeff: I told samwel to sighn up to
                  the
                  > WILUG discussion group
                  > … yes
                  > … so he could learn
                  from the process
                  > Andrius: is there a website for that?
                  > Jeff:
                  www.wilugghana. org
                  > … I think your idea is a good one to set up
                  local
                  > intranet using wireless
                  > … but you still need reliable
                  internet access more
                  > than a cybercafe
                  > … with Kafui we have the
                  University of Education
                  > Andrius:
                  ye
                  > … yes
                  > … I just figured that what can we do for 500
                  USD?
                  > Jeff: so we can use their facilities
                  > Andrius: but we need
                  to start somewhere
                  > … so I imagine it's enough to have a local
                  intranet
                  > … and that might actually be useful
                  > Jeff: you can set
                  up a wireless network for
                  > that yes
                  > … but you need to consider
                  the ability of the area
                  > to recieve the signal
                  > … so a network of
                  centers linked up by wireless
                  > Andrius: and by demonstrating the
                  usefulness
                  > and as Samwel's
                  > technical ability grows it is
                  possible to attract
                  > more resources so that they
                  > can link to the
                  Internet
                  > Jeff: and then an open and distance
                  > learning progrma
                  emerges
                  > Andrius: yes
                  > Jeff: and this could include research
                  on
                  > agriculture
                  > Andrius: yes
                  > Jeff: sounds good
                  >
                  Andrius: it can be used to save running back
                  > and forth, for
                  example,
                  > linking up with a school
                  > Jeff: we need to be patient
                  with the
                  > reality of the Africans
                  > … in terms of how they want to
                  go to antipoverty
                  > programs and stay in 4star
                  > hotels
                  >
                  Andrius: or for example knowing whether a
                  > particular service (such
                  as
                  > Internet access or a medical point) is working that
                  >
                  day
                  > Jeff: regarding the issue of samwell
                  > funding for WSF
                  >
                  … I have faced similar dilemma
                  > Andrius: I think it's about having a
                  shared
                  > culture which means that
                  > we agree on the kind of
                  "representation" that we're
                  > all comfortable with
                  > … so I imagine
                  Samwel wants to project us in a
                  > certain way
                  > Jeff: thats a good
                  point
                  > Andrius: but that's maybe not how I want to
                  > work
                  > …
                  but he may know better in some ways and I in some
                  > Jeff: progressive in
                  the US rarely have a
                  > problem with
                  travelling
                  > cheap
                  > … even Raoul the organizer of many of
                  those
                  > conferences stayed at Joy's house
                  > on several
                  ocassions!
                  > Andrius: yes but there's a whole culture of
                  > dressing
                  for business
                  >
                  === message truncated ===

                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  | |
                  | _------_ ô _------_ |
                  | --- *V* --- |
                  | / \ |
                  | x x |
                  | |
                  | Marcus Petz |
                  | |
                  | Feed the raven and the white tailed eagles |
                  | For the dawn is almost upon us |
                  | I see it shining and will not sheath the sword |
                  | May we die with it in our grasp... |
                  | |
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                  http://secure. hospitalityclub. org/hc/travel. php?cid=markuspe tz

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
                  now.
                  http://uk.answers. yahoo.com/

                • Jeff Buderer
                  Asif, Let me think about it. Jeff ... From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook.com Sent:
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 27, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Asif,

                     

                    Let me think about it.

                  • subscribe@studynook.com
                    Great!!!! _____ From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:42 AM
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 27, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Great!!!!


                      From: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:holistichelping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:42 AM
                      To: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Asif,

                      Let me think about it.

                      Jeff

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 9:20 AM
                      To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Jeff:

                      Since you know who are qualified for what that would be great if you could recommend someone I talk to.

                      Maybe you could present?

                      Thanks

                      Asif.


                      From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 4:41 AM
                      To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Asif,

                      Well so do you want me to invite someone from wsfii to present at a webinar, or maybe you could join wsfii discuss and then make the request yourself and introduce yourself and outline some of your ideas in relation to some of your ideas about wireless and what you would like to discuss in the Webinar.

                      Let me know how you would like to proceed.

                      Jeff

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                      Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:43 PM
                      To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Jeff:

                      You are of great help. The only issue that may come up is that we are not in the Public Domain. So rethink that. But they can register and view everything - they just can't take it and sell it. We will be Podcasting materials next.....esp. onto mobiles.

                      Asif


                      From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                      Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:07 PM
                      To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                      Cc: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Asif,

                      Feel free to introduce yourself and state your interests when you join.

                      Possibly that could be a topic of one of your Webinars?

                      Something about the role of wireless in bridging the digital divide?

                      I am confident we could get someone to present from that network (and/or or the conference I participated in) on this topic.

                      Jeff

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                      Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 9:57 AM
                      To: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Jeff:

                      Thanks for the resource - I will join as soon as I can.

                      Asif.


                      From: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:holistichel ping@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                      Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 10:35 AM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Cc: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [holistichelping] RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Asif,

                      There is a discussion group that discusses these issues.

                      http://lists. okfn..org/ mailman/listinfo /wsfii-discuss

                      Please feel free to join us there and continue the discussion. The people who are from all over the world are highly technical people who have designed software, deployed wireless networks and are running. The group has 400 members.

                      If you or anyone here is serious about considering getting involved in the deployment of wireless systems in Africa I suggest they join and consider the experiences and wisdom of this network as a wonderful resource.

                      Jeff

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                      Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:43 AM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Hi Jeff:

                      By next year, you will be able to get phones with Wi-Max:

                      http://www.fastcurs or.com/phones/ nokia-wimax- phones.asp

                      Asif.


                      From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                      Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 2:02 AM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Asif,

                      OVF has considered such a system for deployment in Ghana . The system costs about 30-50k to set up and licencing is also needed in most regions so add another 10k. So this is not something you just do…it takes a lot of time training resources and planning.

                      Most Community Wireless Networks use Wi-Fi…for obvious reasons you can buy a router for less than $50. So you can build an wifi network incrementally but investing in WiMAX is all up front so that makes it prohibitively expensive for most grassroots networks

                      See http://www.cuwirele ss.net/ for more about Community Wireless Networks and also www.wsfii.org

                      Jeff

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                      Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:03 PM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Jeff:

                      I was responding to the e-mail underneath that talks to Samwel about Wi-Fi and the Subject area above. I agree Wi-Max has not caught on, but if there is multiple expenditures for multiple Wi-Fi sites to reach a point then Wi-Max would cover it better. It is also better to one up the technology rather then trying to play catch-up - because the opportunity may not arise again. It's like buying a lower powered PC only to find out that you are obsolete with ability to use other technologies within a year. Yes, I understand money and resources are an issue - but I was just making a point for someone to consider. Besides, prices are dropping considerably. Sorry Wi-Max is a 30 mile radius and Wi-Fi is a 300 foot radius - I got my numbers wrong. http://computer. howstuffworks. com/wimax1. htm We have installed these in other places and have had much success.

                      Asif.


                      From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Buderer
                      Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:05 PM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      Asif,

                      I was with Wireless Community Network organizers and geeks in DC from all over the world just last weekend. There was hardly unamious agreement with the statement you make below.

                      WiMAX has its advantages but it is much expensive to set up and few community networks are embracing this technology at this time.

                      The wireless number sounds good but the WiMAX is 30km not 300.

                      Also I am wondering what this has to do with Social Agriculture?

                      See my report on the conference I attended in DC

                      http://opendigitalv illage.org/ ?p=28

                      Jeff

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of subscribe@studynook .com
                      Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 7:23 AM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: RE: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      You are better off using Wi-Max than Wi-Fi. Wi-max covers 300 Kms whereas Wi-Fi covers 300 meters...... or something close to that range.

                      Asif.


                      From: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:socialagric ulture@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of markus petz
                      Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 2:24 AM
                      To: socialagriculture@ yahoogroups. com; BacktotheRoot
                      Subject: Re: [socialagriculture] A plan for Wi-Fi in Rusinga Island

                      it would be good to know.

                      1. Did this "unfolding leadership" happen. And is IW &
                      FM the topic??

                      2. How the 3 stage plan progresses for wifi. AS in
                      each stage problems and issues and how well it works
                      as it is progressed along. then we can have this as a
                      pattern for others to follow.

                      markus

                      --- ms@... wrote:

                      > I share my letter and chats with our Back To The
                      > Root
                      group as well, because
                      > we also discuss Jeff Buderer's interests
                      in
                      > Integrated Waste and Farm
                      > Management as well as Wi-Fi. Jeff
                      and I are
                      > planning to transform our
                      > BackToTheRoot group to
                      reflect his personal
                      > interests and leadership, and
                      > we're
                      interested IW&FM as concrete activity that
                      > fosters unfolding
                      >
                      leadership. Andrius
                      > ------------ --------- ----
                      >
                      >
                      Samwel,
                      >
                      > Here is my plan for your Wi-Fi. I am curious
                      what
                      > you think.
                      >
                      > Our goal is to have a network of WiFi
                      "access
                      > points" in Rusinga Island that
                      > connect computers to one
                      or more Internet access
                      > centers. Normally an
                      > "access point"
                      might cover a 100 meter radius but it
                      > is possible to adapt
                      > them
                      so that they cover 1 kilometer or more. This
                      > is a little bit
                      >
                      complicated and more expensive than we can do now.
                      > But it would mean
                      that
                      > everybody in your island could have Internet access
                      > because
                      the "access
                      > points" can share access with each other. So it is
                      > a
                      good goal.
                      >
                      > How can we start? Here is my idea...
                      > Our
                      first goal could be to try to simply set up a
                      > local WiFi access point
                      so
                      > that two computers could talk to each other. They
                      > would not
                      be connected to
                      > the Internet but they would be connected to each
                      >
                      other. For example, it
                      > could be your computer and your laptop. You
                      could
                      > practice to see how far
                      > away you can move your laptop and
                      still get a
                      > signal.
                      >
                      > Within a few months and some
                      experimentation you
                      > might be able to separate
                      > them by one
                      kilometer. This might have some
                      > practical uses. For example,
                      > you
                      might be able to communicate with your neighbors
                      > or the school.
                      I'm
                      > looking at your map:
                      >
                      href="http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?RusingaIsland">http://www.ourcultu re.info/wiki. cgi?RusingaIslan d
                      >
                      > You could add more and more access points and learn
                      > how to
                      connect them so
                      > that they can share information amongst each
                      other.
                      >
                      > Then one day you will be able to connect to one
                      of
                      > the computers at an
                      > Internet center. And then you can chat
                      with them,
                      > share data files with
                      > them, and they can check your
                      mail for you, for
                      > example.
                      >
                      > Finally, there will come a
                      day when you can connect
                      > your local network to the
                      > Internet.
                      Then everybody in your network will be
                      > able to use the Internet.
                      > Your community will be its own Internet provider!
                      >
                      > So
                      that is a plan. And we can send you new and old
                      > WiFi equipment.
                      Does
                      > your laptop have a WiFi card? And can you buy WiFi
                      >
                      equipment there (what are
                      > the prices) or is it better to send
                      it?
                      >
                      > I send my chats with Jeff Buderer - we're excited
                      >
                      about the Ghana - Kenya
                      >
                      connection and sharing of experience that we look
                      > forward to. And also
                      with
                      > Rupert Paier of the village of Kirchbach ,
                      Austria .
                      > Peter on their team has
                      > provided
                      Internet access to many villages and people
                      > in their region using
                      a
                      > wireless technology. Maybe they have some used
                      >
                      equipment?
                      >
                      > Andrius
                      >
                      > Andrius Kulikauskas
                      >
                      Minciu Sodas
                      >
                      href="http://www.ms.lt">http://www.ms. lt
                      >
                      href="mailto:ms%40ms.lt">ms@...
                      > Istanbul ,
                      Turkey
                      >
                      >
                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                      >
                      > Andrius: Hi Jeff, How is everything? I just
                      > wanted to check
                      regarding
                      > your MyFoodStory team and also check regarding Wi-Fi
                      > I
                      had some thoughts.
                      > Jeff: hi I have connectivity problems now
                      > … I
                      cant do much
                      > Andrius: ok
                      > Jeff: I will be able to move forward
                      in
                      > later part of Dec
                      > Andrius: when do you leave for
                      Africa ? when
                      > will you be there?
                      > Jeff: It would be
                      helpful to know of any
                      > deadlines
                      > Andrius: End of March is our
                      deadline, March
                      > 31, 2007
                      > Jeff: ok
                      > Andrius: for the
                      bonuses
                      > … also, let us know how we can support your work and
                      >
                      your direction because
                      > that is part of the point in the long run
                      >
                      Jeff: well I am compiling the stories from
                      > various projects
                      >
                      Andrius: regarding Samwel's wi-fi I had the
                      > idea that it might
                      be
                      > expensive to hook him up to the Internet but it
                      > might be
                      cheap to hook up two
                      > or more computers locally with Wi-Fi. What do
                      you
                      > think?
                      > Jeff: about samwel that is exactly what we
                      >
                      are doing
                      > Andrius: That way he would get good practice
                      > regarding
                      the
                      > technology
                      > Jeff: in winneba
                      > Andrius: in
                      ghana , yes?
                      > Jeff: I told samwel to sighn up to
                      the
                      > WILUG discussion group
                      > … yes
                      > … so he could learn
                      from the process
                      > Andrius: is there a website for that?
                      > Jeff:
                      www.wilugghana. org
                      > … I think your idea is a good one to set up
                      local
                      > intranet using wireless
                      > … but you still need reliable
                      internet access more
                      > than a cybercafe
                      > … with Kafui we have the
                      University of Education
                      > Andrius:
                      ye
                      > … yes
                      > … I just figured that what can we do for 500
                      USD?
                      > Jeff: so we can use their facilities
                      > Andrius: but we need
                      to start somewhere
                      > … so I imagine it's enough to have a local
                      intranet
                      > … and that might actually be useful
                      > Jeff: you can set
                      up a wireless network for
                      > that yes
                      > … but you need to consider
                      the ability of the area
                      > to recieve the signal
                      > … so a network of
                      centers linked up by wireless
                      > Andrius: and by demonstrating the
                      usefulness
                      > and as Samwel's
                      > technical ability grows it is
                      possible to attract
                      > more resources so that they
                      > can link to the
                      Internet
                      > Jeff: and then an open and distance
                      > learning progrma
                      emerges
                      > Andrius: yes
                      > Jeff: and this could include research
                      on
                      > agriculture
                      > Andrius: yes
                      > Jeff: sounds good
                      >
                      Andrius: it can be used to save running back
                      > and forth, for
                      example,
                      > linking up with a school
                      > Jeff: we need to be patient
                      with the
                      > reality of the Africans
                      > … in terms of how they want to
                      go to antipoverty
                      > programs and stay in 4star
                      > hotels
                      >
                      Andrius: or for example knowing whether a
                      > particular service (such
                      as
                      > Internet access or a medical point) is working that
                      >
                      day
                      > Jeff: regarding the issue of samwell
                      > funding for WSF
                      >
                      … I have faced similar dilemma
                      > Andrius: I think it's about having a
                      shared
                      > culture which means that
                      > we agree on the kind of
                      "representation" that we're
                      > all comfortable with
                      > … so I imagine
                      Samwel wants to project us in a
                      > certain way
                      > Jeff: thats a good
                      point
                      > Andrius: but that's maybe not how I want to
                      > work
                      > …
                      but he may know better in some ways and I in some
                      > Jeff: progressive in
                      the US rarely have a
                      > problem with
                      travelling
                      > cheap
                      > … even Raoul the organizer of many of
                      those
                      > conferences stayed at Joy's house
                      > on several
                      ocassions!
                      > Andrius: yes but there's a whole culture of
                      > dressing
                      for business
                      >
                      === message truncated ===

                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                      | |
                      | _------_ ô _------_ |
                      | --- *V* --- |
                      | / \ |
                      | x x |
                      | |
                      | Marcus Petz |
                      | |
                      | Feed the raven and the white tailed eagles |
                      | For the dawn is almost upon us |
                      | I see it shining and will not sheath the sword |
                      | May we die with it in our grasp... |
                      | |
                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----
                      http://secure. hospitalityclub. org/hc/travel. php?cid=markuspe tz

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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