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Mark and Wael chatted about sustainable Palestine

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  • Andrius Kulikauskas
    I share a transcript from Mark Roest s and Wael al Saad s chat today about sustainable Palestine. It s also available here:
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 10, 2010
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      I share a transcript from Mark Roest's and Wael al Saad's chat today
      about sustainable Palestine. It's also available here:
      http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=0&mday=10&year=2010
      Wael, see also the transcript from the day before, which I include
      further below.
      Thank you for using our chat room! http://www.worknets.org/chat/
      Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.ms.lt, ms@...
      --------------------------------------------------------


      MarkRoest: Hello Wael :: while I wait for you, I am checking out the
      resources you posted. :: Hello Wael

      Wael: Hey Mark :: thanks for joining ~ ..

      MarkRoest: I would add Geographic Information Systems, Earth Imaging
      (you can use kites and tethered balloons, and Open and Distance Learning
      modules to the list of technologies on the second resource, on the left
      side. :: That said, I like the first two a lot.

      Wael: my biggest concern is the
      open-source-architecture-and-industerial-design for the "cell" :: the
      dynamic between the future seed cells must include GIS, ..

      MarkRoest: Just to get it said before focusing on other things, the
      third diagram is good schematically, but it only relates for people like
      me and other engineering types.

      Wael: my strategy is to work on the design and build it through
      volunteers who will learn natural-building, etc. so that they can build
      it some where else.

      MarkRoest: It needs to also be shown with a map and concrete examples,
      which the volunteers can help you define. :: So let's talk about rhe
      open-source-architecture-and-industerial-design for the "cell"

      Wael: lets try to imagine the cell, an intellgent multi-purpose,
      social-space, manufactuering spaces, .. :: :) :: I imagine a space,
      where men and women met for dynamic rural-green-jobs

      MarkRoest: Can you give me a picture of a concrete example? -- one in
      which you know there are a significant range of skills and knowledge in
      the local community.

      Wael: the social space includes kinder-garten, sperated spaces for
      women, men, and mixed :: manufactering rooms: welness products, like
      organic saop cocked with solar heater, :: herbal dryer for tee bags,
      spices ..

      MarkRoest: The thing is, in order to get the resources for a dedicated
      space, you need to start with making money in what there already is.

      Wael: hand crafts and arts space :: if use local natural materials for
      the building and volunteers who are willing to learn nautral-building
      the costs are not high

      MarkRoest: Take soap, for example. If you find the soapmakers, and you
      research soaps that do not involve lye or other toxics beforehand,

      Wael: we can get funds to by the professionals, as they will train tainer

      MarkRoest: the same principle I am working toward expressing may apply
      to construction.

      Wael: do you think, Earth Design and Architecure for Humany and GAIA
      university would fund the cell-design?

      MarkRoest: Perhaps, if you do the homework first. :: So back to the soap
      example ...

      Wael: I can imagine if we develop high perfromed 3D design, may be with
      some animation .. it will be great material to support larg scale
      project with large scale change leverage :: ok

      MarkRoest: This is a model that other social change activists and
      generalists can also work with, in parallel with your efforts.

      Wael: We can start with that this summer: Build a big solar heater, get
      recepties for the herbal-flafoured-soap, and develop a tradmark in the
      incubater of "Asrary", for organic agro-manufactering, I am partnering with

      MarkRoest: What I am going to present and develop a bit with you is a
      method (which you can adapt to your needs)

      Wael: I believe the idea of modular communial green ecosystem of
      produation/cell will gain larg glaobal attention, as it is part of
      "standarlization" a global green-tradmarket and global coperative
      association which can bridge money need, by exchaninge goods

      MarkRoest: of building the social momentum and economic base for
      starting projects in a way that may get people outside to add resources
      as you go along. :: I agree with you totally.

      Wael: the cell can be taylored any where acoodring to building material,
      raw-matrials for food production, ..

      MarkRoest: The point is how you can bootstrap it into existence :: You
      face the same problem as people in poor areas in Africa :: where people
      are saying, I have this vision and I just need it funded.

      Wael: for me the idea is simple in tactis, and huge in influence. If no
      bodey thought examin it before, we can formulate it as trategical
      project for 21-century new economics :: the formulation can find big
      attention and join-ventures

      MarkRoest: I had a vision of an advanced wind turbine and just needed to
      hire an aerodynamic engineer and a structural engineer to help me design
      it. :: That was in 1975. :: It led to 10 years trying to help the
      inventor of the Captive Column, Lawrence Bosch.

      Wael: when the people in africa have a complete tool-kit starting from
      the architecteure, which they can build with local abilities with some
      consulting things would change .. and if they know they will be
      connected to the any one is developing the cell, the empowermnet is emmense

      MarkRoest: It is only simple in tactics if you have a foundation for action.

      Wael: the cluse of open modularity and cells-networks can include many
      projects are already developed or in development, such as your wind turbine.

      MarkRoest: Do you know about the people in Benin who are building
      agricultural machinery?

      Wael: *the clue

      MarkRoest: They influence others, but the influence tapers off.

      Wael: no .. but I know about others

      MarkRoest: I agree with your concepts, and the capability to formulate
      them as large trajectories. :: Your challenge is to mobilize people who
      are ordinary on the surface.

      Wael: the collective intellgence of the cell-design can be comvered by
      relevent pattern-language, which will include many existing designs. But
      again I think the eco-architecture is the first start

      MarkRoest: Songhai -- I just remembered the name. :: They were helped to
      get going by the co-founder of Gaviotas, it turns out. :: How many
      people who function at your mental level do you know?

      Wael: we are almost heading on new global intellgent initiatives .. it
      took me 7 years to think about one with significance

      MarkRoest: That makes you a philosopher. :: How many people who function
      at your mental level do you know?

      Wael: let me count: may be 15 :: but there are many who trust me very much

      MarkRoest: What are their knowledge sets, and where do they live? (We'll
      get to those who trust you in a bit.)

      Wael: Many in the states, some in Israel, some in EU, one in Egypt, 3 in
      Palestine

      MarkRoest: (The 15 are key to identifying a possible growth path for
      you.) :: Who are the 3 in Palestine, and what are their skill sets?

      Wael: none of them it technicion ..

      MarkRoest: That's ok

      Wael: some names: Samie Awad from Holy Land Trust :: Tarek from United
      Religion Initiative

      MarkRoest: What is Samie's role?

      Wael: Khaled Islaih, a visionary futurist :: the CEO

      MarkRoest: And is the Trust a land trust or a financial trust?

      Wael: same as Tarek, who is leading volunteering for peace in the middle
      east :: http://www.holylandtrust.org/

      MarkRoest: The same as -- Tarek is a CEO, or he is a visionary activist,
      or both??

      Wael: Tarek is global thinker , CEO if volunteering for peace

      MarkRoest: Looks like Sami is also. :: I followed the link.

      Wael: yes .. Sami is absolute great human :: he is trying to get the
      global solar village to Palestine for example.

      MarkRoest: How many people in Palestine occupied territories are in his
      organization, and is the global solar village a prototype or a design?

      Wael: Mark, I know that I need editorial help to formulate global-local
      vision based on the "cell"-design/network

      MarkRoest: I want to get across foundations to support its development
      in the real world, first; :: I do understand and support your vision.

      Wael: am not sure about the number .. it is a desgin done in Tamera Oct.
      last year

      MarkRoest: Rough guess on the number?

      Wael: calling him ;)

      MarkRoest: Can you give me an outline of the size and nature of the
      elements of the design? :: Whie you are at it, can he tell you how many
      are in each of the separated enclaves? :: Those are the groups who can
      easily work and coordinate with each other.

      Wael: about 100

      MarkRoest: Very good!

      Wael: he has 25 employees from the 100

      MarkRoest: Can he give you a rough geographic distribution? :: I am
      thinking about the walls and checkpoints.

      Wael: the avarage village in Palestine has 1500 inhabitants. :: around
      Jenin alone there is around 50 villages

      MarkRoest: How many of his people are in a given village? :: on average?

      AndriusKulikauskas: Hi Mark, Wael, :: I just briefly wanted to say hi.
      :: Many people came by yesterday. :: Thank you for chatting here.

      Wael:
      http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Israel,+Jenin&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.456673,93.076172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Jenin,+Israel&ll=32.462067,35.302537&spn=0.164537,0.363579&t=p&z=12

      MarkRoest: and what are some of the ones (Hello Andrius!) where he has
      the most people in one enclosed area?

      AndriusKulikauskas: I'm resting today and tomorrow and Tuesday I hope to
      make my plans for the year

      Wael: the cell should be located between 2 to 3 villages in the first
      phase :: we must allow potential for seeding new cells

      MarkRoest: we are having a strategy session for small local developments.

      AndriusKulikauskas: also Mark, I'm collecting our "dreams-in-life"
      http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?Dreams if you write yours here then I
      will add it to our list

      Wael: each cell should lets say get work for 100 people .. the cell it
      cell will have growth capacity as well

      MarkRoest: Are there places where 2-3 villages are in the same sector,
      so there are no walls between them?

      Wael: the cells must be inside the wall! There is minor ammount of
      check-points these days

      MarkRoest: Or how many villages are in contiguous sectors?

      Wael: http://stopthewall.org/maps/1159.shtml

      MarkRoest: I am trying to understand both how many leaders and how many
      villages are in some of the walled areas.

      Wael: HEY Andrius :) :: you have been always a great host ..

      MarkRoest: I thought it was much more fragmented than that!

      Wael: it is cut in 3 major parts

      MarkRoest: Please lead me through that last map.

      Wael: but in each part is enough space to network 5 sub-senters in on
      regional-center. So we will have 3 or 4 regional centers :: in the North
      you have Jenin,

      MarkRoest: Are the Iraeli roads are effective dividers?

      Wael: you can drive till Zatara Checkpoint without problem :: today we
      can use the Israeli raids cutting WestBank a cross till the wall-side ::
      near Jerusalem it is more complicated. There are two walls-systems

      MarkRoest: How many people live north of Zatara in that region?

      Wael: on is cutting east-Jeruslam from Israel-area

      MarkRoest: How far does it go? and does the road to Jerusalem make an
      effective barrier?

      Wael: about half Million :: WestBANK in total 2,5 Million I think :: YES
      .. we can not reac hJeruslam withou tcontorl and permit :: but the road
      is open to the south

      MarkRoest: So you can conduct commerce between north and south regions
      of the west bank?

      Wael: YES

      MarkRoest: Greate! :: Looking at the map from a military point of view,
      I see it as Zionist competition for water.

      Wael: only when the situation is stable .. but any time Israel can close
      the check-points

      MarkRoest: got it

      Wael: it makes the design more attractive

      MarkRoest: Are there any sources of natural water in the West Bank?

      Wael: 1. we have rain water

      MarkRoest: How many inches or cm per year?

      Wael: every house in the village has its rainwater-collecter/well

      MarkRoest: How far below the surface is the ground-water level?

      Wael: http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=430

      MarkRoest: What is your sense of whether the water table will be
      maintained in the Jordan River watershed, based on Israeli agricultural
      and industrial policy?

      Wael: Around 600 mcm of the annual rainfall :: am not getting the
      question right .. :: But I think we need very intellgent water-managent
      start on individual level .. to village de-centralized swage-plants run
      by PV and biogas provding agri-water

      MarkRoest: I just scanned the article and I agree with you.

      Wael: the village will build such plants if they know they are usfull
      for the cell-networs :: so the cirises can be solved on the local level ..

      MarkRoest: More than that, I see that the policy around water from
      Israel's side is competitive, not cooperative..

      Wael: many villages are on the top of the hills, which is great to run
      micro-irrigation by gravity :: it is policy based on power-asymmetry

      MarkRoest: What you are saying is actually the core of the necessary
      progress for survival.

      Wael: if we bring the power to orgnic level , then .. :: I have a good
      imagine. Do you know greening the desert video?

      MarkRoest: Better than that, I am friends with a person who knows how to
      do it, and I know 2 others.

      Wael: we can dig thousands of these water-collection channels ..

      MarkRoest: Yes.

      Wael: we can connect the sewage-plants on the higher hils to the
      micro-irrigation network

      MarkRoest: and you can store water in the surface ground features using
      permaculture principles.

      Wael: so we will have agiculture over the year almost :: yep

      MarkRoest: Yes.

      Wael: :)

      MarkRoest: That is also a matter of knowing what plants to use.

      Wael: it can be a complete ecosystem-medium of connecting every thing in
      sustainblity

      MarkRoest: Is the topography of the hills rough enough that there are
      natural storage reservoir potentials near the wells?

      Wael: yeh .. :: here an there you find water leaks to the top in the
      mountains

      MarkRoest: Or are there gradual hills where cut-and-fill can be used to
      create reservoirs? :: you mean springs?

      Wael: yes .. but waek one :: there is an issue there. you must know that
      the WestBank is devides also in A-B-C area

      MarkRoest: Has anyone done relatively detailed hydrology of the Occupied
      Territories? :: Yes, I know it's divided, but not just how.

      Wael: Area A: contorl is for Palestinian :: B: for both :: C: only for
      Israel

      MarkRoest: I see that from the map

      Wael:
      http://peoplesnetworks.net/publication/content/photos/nofziondocuments/Map3_WB_ABC.pdf
      :: so, we will not get permit for water collection that easy

      MarkRoest: But what you have told me so far is enough to believe that a
      viable agricultural economy can be maintained within the A areas, and
      possibly in the B areas asa well.

      Wael: so the channels we have described above must be sort .. only in B,
      .. not sure about scenario :: but area C is of huge importance . :: it
      can provide the cells of wild herbals for example :: dry land
      permaculture as well

      MarkRoest: C means Israeli control exclusivity, right? :: Do
      Palestinians have wild-crafting / foraging access to C areas?

      Wael: right. It means, if the village want to build a school they must
      ask Israel

      MarkRoest: But the population is not displaced by Israelis?

      Wael: yes :: only not behind the wall

      MarkRoest: Got it. :: Let's go back to how to use the water. :: Do each
      (or most) of the villages have viable wells?

      Wael: yes .. but the problem is that water consumption enacreased thanks
      to civilization :: so that it is not enough .. water tap pipes reach
      most of the villages now

      MarkRoest: You are going to have to use the peacemakers to change
      habits, once you have a new pattern to follow.

      Wael: BUT when ater saving and collection, using become part of economic
      solution oroginal hiratages behavior will become active

      MarkRoest: And once you have a real system in place to convince them
      that there is an alternative to 'just consuming' :: Exactly!!!

      Wael: it is about reviving healthy known habits who are not profitable
      any more

      MarkRoest: By making them profitable once again!

      Wael: money damaged lot of things .. it rpelaced natural-capital,
      social-coopartion, .. :: this is the idea .. thats why "direct
      wonership" is on the top of the rpincibles of the "body"

      MarkRoest: So, back to the question of whether water can be stored on
      the hilltops, beyond home-based cisterns.

      Wael: I studies this point a bit :: there are leagl frames from Israel,
      who much water can be stored and how :: for example you can not build a dame

      MarkRoest: Related question: how much of the water used in agriculture
      first appears below the hills, and how much first shows up on them? ::
      What is allowed? and what are the limits to the regulations, that could
      be worked around?

      Wael: but you can build small water tanks for 100 cubic meter on the surface

      MarkRoest: ok, how many in a village? or is that currently unlimited?

      Wael: the good thing, there is enough possibilities to start now. Once
      we have more political stablity better regulation will follow

      MarkRoest: But what is the specific answer to the question as of now?

      Wael: currenty there is no sewage water use at all as it is not
      processed. Rain water is almost enough for cleaning makeing tee, etc

      MarkRoest: how many tanks can be built, and how much water could be
      gathered for filling them, in an average village of 1000 people?

      Wael: people are not using , as they do not see advantage in it. They
      got there drink water from the pipe and many of them do not practice
      agriculture any more

      MarkRoest: rainwater and groundwater combined, before considering
      recycling. :: I am trying to lead you into decisive analysis here.

      AndriusKulikauskas: You are having a great chat! and of course you know
      we have an archive, too

      Wael: every how can ave its own well. They use electircal motors as
      pumps. Here we need an alternative for pumping

      MarkRoest: of what is possible.

      Wael: every one :: *

      MarkRoest: Your answer is not yet clear.

      Wael: there is no limitation for the number of tanks.. but I must check

      MarkRoest: OK, so the limitation is the hydrology described in the
      article you linked to. :: That is likely to be the gating factor in the end.

      Wael: I need to do rough calculation

      MarkRoest: I am trying to get at a few different answers here. :: 1. How
      much water falls or can be sustainably drawn from wells on the hilltops
      where the villages are.

      Wael: lets focus on the village with 100 cm a year

      MarkRoest: 2. How much water falls or can be sustainably drawn from
      wells on the agricultural lands below, and

      AndriusKulikauskas: tweet: Wael and Mark are chatting about sustainable
      Palestine http://www.worknets.org/chat/

      MarkRoest: 3. How much re-use can be made of the water on the hilltops?
      :: Is that 100 cm per year rainfall only?

      Wael: any local water expert can answer these question with aduacate
      anylsis and I know one :: No, this is usage :: per person :: annual
      rainfall is about 600 mcm

      MarkRoest: Good. In the macro scale, we will need to know eventually how
      much is available for crops, and how much can be drawn from the acquifer
      or needs to be put into the acquifer to maintain it. :: What is mcm?

      Wael: milli cubic metere :: if i am not wrong

      MarkRoest: Do you mean million cubic meters, and if so, on how much
      area? We need it broken down to how much is available In the local area
      used for farming around each village. Also, we need to have a basic
      understanding of what levels of use are sustainable for the watersheds.
      :: The human sustainable economy is built on that foundation. :: Can you
      tell me in centimeters per year rainfall, as in a raingauge measuring
      device? :: And, do you have an idea of how much water in cubic meters
      can be drawn from the collective wells of an average village of 1000
      people? :: Divided between wells in the village, on the hilltop, and
      wells below in the fields? :: that is enough to do basic design work. ::
      Later we will need to know the specifics for as many villages as possible.

      Wael: Some how I went out of the chat window and can not see it all now

      MarkRoest: With this information you can go beyond basic miminalist
      survival strategies to defining the sustainable carrying capacity of a
      given economic design that uses a given amount of water per village. ::
      I will copy it and paste it into this window.

      Wael: Mark, I can get these question answered

      MarkRoest: Can you see what I wrote while you were out now?

      Wael: look at the picture on Marda Farm FaceBook group Murad tok last
      week :: there is good rain and the soil is great

      MarkRoest: Can you see what I wrote while you were out now?

      Wael: i see only from this on : [20:46] <Mark_Roest> With this
      information you can go beyond basic miminalist survival strategies to
      defining the sustainable carrying capacity of a given economic design
      that uses a given amount of water per village.

      MarkRoest: Let me copy the rest and try to paste it in. I will also set
      up an RTF file so I can email it to you.

      Wael: okay

      MarkRoest: whispers: Welcome to Chat in the Public Domain. WorkNets, a
      culture for independent thinkers.! :: It did not work, it only took the
      first line. Andrius, can you assist? I did successfully paste it into an
      RTF file.

      Wael: Mark, I have an radio-interview now ..

      MarkRoest: Wael, what email address should I use right now to send the
      file to you?

      Wael: I send u an invitation to put it on Marda goole-project-site

      MarkRoest: I will wrap up where I was going and send that to you also. OK

      Wael: edit the wiki and create a page

      MarkRoest: I'll go back to that.

      Wael: As said .. I am willing to write a manifesto about the "cell" ::
      to use it to talk to the world :: espeecilly to local universities and
      research instetution :: NGOS :: etc.

      MarkRoest: You will need to have the kind of thing I have been driving
      for in this talk to make it work.

      Wael: 250 millimeter :: to 400 :: Wael are you there?

      MarkRoest: Thanks!

      Wael: now i have to leave

      MarkRoest: I am still there.

      Wael: my dad gave me the number about rain fall :: i passed it

      MarkRoest: Bye! Have a good interview!

      Wael: thanks Mark!! :: thanks for energizing me :: and the idea

      MarkRoest: That's 16 inches per year for British / U.S. system users. ::
      I mean, That's 10 to 16 inches per year for British / U.S. system users.
      :: From what Wael said ([20:47] <Wael> look at the picture on Marda Farm
      FaceBook group Murad tok last week), there is uneven rainfall :: Sorry,
      he said, [20:47] <Wael> look at the picture on Marda Farm FaceBook group
      Murad tok last week -- there is good rain and the soil is great :: That
      tells us that probably they have more rain than the average 250 to 450
      cm / 10 to 16 inches per year. :: Or, they have already learned the
      lessons the rest of Palestine needs to learn, and are an existing
      successful pilot case. :: Or, a third possibility, they have gone beyond
      that in that area, and are actually succeeding in stimulating rainfall,
      which is one of the kinds of things my friend talks about. :: To build a
      long term planning process in the Occupied Territories and beyond, it is
      important to know which is which here. :: In this chat we have been
      functioning at three levels, basically. :: 1. I have been trying to find
      out the basics for designing an optimal sustainable village economy, or
      diverse versions if there are substantial differences among the
      ecosystms around the villages. :: 2. Wael has been working to articulate
      his concept of an organizing system, supported by buildings in which
      people can easily do business, and which has the strength to get people
      to listen. :: 3. We have been starting to paint a picture of how the
      villages operate now, and the details of the context of occupation. ::
      The chat was titled, The Palestinian Rural Empire and Global Green
      Palestine :: We clearly did not reach that point, partly because we
      didn't realize and discuss that we were functioning on levels 1 and 2
      from the start. :: But we would not have covered all that ground in 2
      hours anyway. :: At the level of the title, it is possible to make rural
      Palestine prosperous, even with an input of 250 to 450 cm water
      annually. :: The global Palestinian diaspora can indeed learn
      permaculture as a way of thought and life, and mobilize resources and
      specific technical knowledge to help bring prosperity to the people
      still in Occupied Palestine. :: Open source versions of the same
      software tools that enable large corporations to coordinate efficiently
      :: can be used by the world's Palestinian population and their
      supporters to make this powerful and effective. :: The planning and
      implementation for the short, medium and long term need to proceed
      concurrently; :: they need to proceed in a context of full display of
      the progress in all three timeframes; :: also on the different
      geographical scales, and within the different discipline clusters. ::
      This kind of display environment can be pulled together within a few
      months, if people support it. :: The simultaneous planning processes are
      possible because people can join the specific ones that they have
      competence and interest in, and each process can take time to keep up
      with the discoveries and plans made by the others. :: This is similar to
      how a well-run business or institution functions. :: If a relative few
      people and organizations start it, they will attract more through their
      success. :: Going back to 21:20, I attended a permaculture workshop at
      SolFest a couple of years ago in which the presenter said that even 9
      inches a year was sufficient, if the water is stored in a variety of
      managed surface and sub-surface features. :: I know that the Israelis
      pioneered drip irrigation systems, and one NGO has designed a very
      simple, far less expensive drip system. :: It is coming at the problem
      from multiple directions. :: You store the water that does come, :: you
      deliver it exactly where it is needed, in the amounts that are needed
      there, :: and you design your gardens with plants that meet your
      nutritional needs without demanding more water than you can provide. ::
      With a combination of approaches like this, you can actually replenish
      acquifers in the desert. :: You also have to thoroughly manage
      non-garden water use in the villages. :: There can be kitchen gardens at
      every home that has any ground around it at all, and their soil can be
      built using compost from the home. :: There could be two composting
      systems, one for the bathroom (with a little dry cellulose fiber added
      with each use), :: and one for the kitchen. :: The bathroom can have a
      rather large composting toilet. Properly managed, it does not smell up
      the house. :: If you arrange the kitchen and the bathroom on opposite
      sides of a common wall, and reinforce it so putting a hole in it does
      not damage it structurally, :: you can have a single composting system,
      but I do not know the health and safety aspects of this in any depth. ::
      If people decide to get into researching compost systems for human
      waste, there is a Norwegian researcher who can be contacted through
      Ianto Evans, of the Cob Cottage Company in Cottage Grove, Oregon. :: To
      start with, separate systems are better. The human waste compost can be
      tilled into the ground and left for a season or a year. ::
      Alternatively, and better if you can make the tanks, the human waste and
      a portion of the vegetable matter can be put into anaerobic digesters,
      which will kill most pathogens and produce methane gas. :: You can then
      use various kinds of separators to remove the water, and running it
      through a reed bed with the right plants in it can cleanse the water
      enough for gardening, and perhaps washing, use. That also makes the
      solids light enough to more easily distribute as soil amendments. :: As
      my father (born in Holland in 1898) taught, "waste not, want not!" ::
      Ideally, there will be a cluster of related mini-movements researching
      and experimenting to see what works and is pleasing to Palestinian
      sensibilities, in the kitchen (solar cooking, frying with methane as
      fuel, dishwashing, food storage), around cleaning clothes, :: in
      managing kitchen gardens, in community gardening and private farms in
      the fields below, :: in making the tools and equipment for all these
      activities (in most cases it will be better economically to make locally
      than to import, even if the immediate price is higher, because the money
      will recirculate) :: in each kind of cottage and industrial
      manufacturing business, :: in oursourcing services to earn foreign
      exchange, :: and in developing all the resources needed to sustain life
      and make it fulfilling. :: You can also divide the Israeli population,
      even to some extent among the 'settlers', by teaching sustainability and
      peace processes to any who are drawn to your work and lifestyles, and
      sharing with them how to teach those they can influence. :: This will
      eventually take the force out of Zionism as a dominator ideology. ::
      After all, dominator ideologies are as primitive as chickens and their
      pecking order -- someone else pecks me, so I peck anyone weaker. ::
      Meanwhile, you can rebuild the unity in the greater Palestinian
      community, and this will vastly increase you capacity to resist further
      reduction in your land and resource bases. :: That sort of covers short
      and medium-short timeframes 'in a nutshell'. :: The medium time-frame
      needs to be focused on mapping what soils you have, learning the Soil
      Food Web material and methodologies <www.soilfoodweb.com> as well as
      Permaculture, and BioIntensive Gardening (John Jeavons), and BioDynamic
      Gardening, and maybe Yoruba (a Nigerian culture) heap gardening (3-foot
      high mounds, each with its own community of plants, extremely
      productive). :: It also needs to be implementing things rather than
      studying them to death, using the Agile Programming philosophy ::
      release early and release often) :: I know you want to get buildings up
      for organizations, but you would achieve more if you keep that
      makeshift, and dispersed, and put most energy into doing things among
      the people and organizing them where they are. :: make that teaching
      them, learning from them, and supporting / facilitating them in
      organizing or re-establishing their traditional community regulation,
      decision and action processes. :: Also, you might consider, as a program
      for the diaspora to organize and fund, getting the newest or next
      generation of OLPC XOs in the hands of the children in the Occupied
      Territories, and working with Ed Cherlin and Earth Treasury to help
      develop, and to translate, the new digital curriculum being developed
      with his encouragement. :: People like Doug Engelbart, inventor of much
      of the computer user interface we take for granted, and Alan Kaye,
      developer of the SmallTalk programming language (to teach his children
      to program) which is included with every XO. :: make that XO, are
      involved in this effort. Ed is a friend of mine and on :: Andrius'
      forums. :: If you do everything possible with the people where they
      stand, in the facilities that still stand, as your priority, they will
      observe your direction as well as what you actually do. :: Many of them
      will get the sense of it, and will assume their roles in collaboration
      with you. Then all of you together will reach a point at which you can
      say, it is time to design and build separate facilities for these cells
      you have supported us in developing. :: Make your work open source as
      in, widely available through the 115 or more committed volunteers and
      activists you have direct access to :: and done in full view of the
      communities in which they live. :: Coordinate with increasing skill
      using the means of communications and knowledgebase development
      available to you (that will shortly get much better!) :: so you keep
      feeding new, highly relevant and effective, knowledge to each community
      through the team members who live there. :: This process (22:40-41,
      22:43-46) will expand the team and create a new distributed leadership /
      teaching role that can be coordinated for concerted regional and
      Territories-wide action. :: It will also build the community economy
      from the roots up (literally!), so there is progressively more money
      available for strategic purposes, :: to catalyse the communities in
      reaching the next objectives. :: This is the overall methodology in a
      nutshell. :: It is time for me to go; I will try to post this as
      requested. :: Regards, :: Mark :: Andrius, Please fix the problem that
      blocked Wael's access to the early part of the chat, and make sure it is
      all posted in the archives, and let others know the nature of the
      content we have put into it. Thank you!

      Wael: Hey Mak again .. so much insparations

      MarkRoest: It's actually a methodology that this opportunity is helping
      me get documented.\ :: Regarding "I send u an invitation to put it on
      Marda goole-project-site", was that an email invitation or on facebook?

      Wael: some how I can ot get into the discussion

      MarkRoest: I should post it as you said; you could set up the wiki and
      ping me that it is ready, and I can post the whole conversation, which I
      have in a separate rtf file. :: Then you can review the whole, and pick
      it up where I left off. :: By the way, when you reach the mid-range, you
      may be able to economically justify (and get matching funds for)

      Wael: it was to your gmail-address

      MarkRoest: advanced anaerobic digesters which make high-grade biogas
      (68% methane, negligible hydrogen sulfides) which can be used to make
      electricity in each village's livestock areas; shops can be set up
      nearby to use the electricity without transmission costs or losses. ::
      Great, I'll take a look. :: [note to self] I'm going to save the file
      with my Renewables West work.

      Wael: hello :: hello

      -------------------------------------------

      Taha: hi :: any body there?

      Inas: hey

      Winston: Hello? :: Good luck Wael. If and when the consciousness shift
      reaches a critical mass, humanity, and indeed consciousness itself which
      includes all living and inanimate things of the entire universe, then
      the evolution toward the next time period of the universe will progress.
      Without this shift, there will be a mass extinction of species, which is
      in the midst of happening now. This extinction will include :: will
      include humans and evidence supports that this is also happening by
      global growth of refugees, extreme climate conditions which impacts
      agriculture and community life support systems. Your work, like mine,
      and the millions of others who are so passionately engaged comes from
      the same spark which also has created the disaster. As strange as that
      sounds, the two forces arise together. The play :: the play of life or
      dance of life will always be a mystery, or at least while we have
      bodies. Because we have bodies, we have duality. The seat of our
      consciousness is not our brain, but our brain is also a part of us, of
      our body. There is nothing to do except continue to do what we do.

      Andrius: Hi Fred and all, I'm back in the Lithuanian countryside. :: I
      will rest tomorrow and Monday make a plan what to do next.

      Ifthkar: Salam :: /msg Wael hi

      Andrius: Salam :: I am in Lithuania, where are you? :: Do you kow Wael?
      He is in Jenin, Palestine. :: Hi zohar atai, how are you? :: I'm in
      Lithuania

      ZoharAtai: all right, just checking if its working. I am in Ohio, US

      Andrius: Hi :: How did you learn of our chat room?

      ZoharAtai: I'll enter the chat sunday,

      Andrius: great, is there something scheduled here? :: we're going to
      schedule a check with Suresh Fernando I think some time next week. ::
      and I try to be around a lot, too

      ZoharAtai: Oh, from the facebook invitation of Marda Parmaculture farm

      Andrius: I lead the Minciu Sodas laboratory http://www.ms.lt and
      Worknets http://www.worknets.org :: oh that's great

      ZoharAtai: I'll look into your project as well

      Andrius: do you have that link to the facebook? :: or the invitation
      details when will the chat be and who is organizing it?

      ZoharAtai: http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?tid=1251731026917 :: O.k. ::
      I'll come back Sunday, all the best

      Andrius: thank you

      Mohammed: hi all

      Andrius: Hi Mohammed :: Good to see you here :: I understand that you
      will have a chat tomorrow.
    • Peter Burgess
      Dear Colleagues These are interesting chat transcripts ... and might be very useful to me in helping me to get the elements of Community Analytics (CA) more
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 10, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Colleagues

        These are interesting chat transcripts ... and might be very useful to
        me in helping me to get the elements of Community Analytics (CA) more
        refined in the area of water and agriculture.

        Peter Burgess
        ___________
        Peter Burgess
        Tr-Ac-Net Inc ... The Transparency and Accountability Network
        Community Analytics (CA)
        Integrated Malaria Management (IMM)
        Microfinance Focus Magazine in New York
        website: www.tr-ac-net.org
        tel: 917 432 1191 or 212 772 6918 or 212 744 6469
        email: peterbnyc@...
        skype: peterburgessnyc
        Books: Search Peter Burgess at www.lulu.com

        ///////////////////////////////////////


        On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...> wrote:
        > I share a transcript from Mark Roest's and Wael al Saad's chat today
        > about sustainable Palestine.  It's also available here:
        > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=0&mday=10&year=2010
        > Wael, see also the transcript from the day before, which I include
        > further below.
        > Thank you for using our chat room!  http://www.worknets.org/chat/
        > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.ms.lt, ms@...
        > --------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > MarkRoest: Hello Wael :: while I wait for you, I am checking out the
        > resources you posted. :: Hello Wael
        >
        > Wael: Hey Mark :: thanks for joining ~ ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: I would add Geographic Information Systems, Earth Imaging
        > (you can use kites and tethered balloons, and Open and Distance Learning
        > modules to the list of technologies on the second resource, on the left
        > side. :: That said, I like the first two a lot.
        >
        > Wael: my biggest concern is the
        > open-source-architecture-and-industerial-design for the "cell" :: the
        > dynamic between the future seed cells must include GIS, ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: Just to get it said before focusing on other things, the
        > third diagram is good schematically, but it only relates for people like
        > me and other engineering types.
        >
        > Wael: my strategy is to work on the design and build it through
        > volunteers who will learn natural-building, etc. so that they can build
        > it some where else.
        >
        > MarkRoest: It needs to also be shown with a map and concrete examples,
        > which the volunteers can help you define. :: So let's talk about rhe
        > open-source-architecture-and-industerial-design for the "cell"
        >
        > Wael: lets try to imagine the cell, an intellgent multi-purpose,
        > social-space, manufactuering spaces, .. :: :) :: I imagine a space,
        > where men and women met for dynamic rural-green-jobs
        >
        > MarkRoest: Can you give me a picture of a concrete example? -- one in
        > which you know there are a significant range of skills and knowledge in
        > the local community.
        >
        > Wael: the social space includes kinder-garten, sperated spaces for
        > women, men, and mixed :: manufactering rooms: welness products, like
        > organic saop cocked with solar heater, :: herbal dryer for tee bags,
        > spices ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: The thing is, in order to get the resources for a dedicated
        > space, you need to start with making money in what there already is.
        >
        > Wael: hand crafts and arts space :: if use local natural materials for
        > the building and volunteers who are willing to learn nautral-building
        > the costs are not high
        >
        > MarkRoest: Take soap, for example. If you find the soapmakers, and you
        > research soaps that do not involve lye or other toxics beforehand,
        >
        > Wael: we can get funds to by the professionals, as they will train tainer
        >
        > MarkRoest: the same principle I am working toward expressing may apply
        > to construction.
        >
        > Wael: do you think, Earth Design and Architecure for Humany and GAIA
        > university would fund the cell-design?
        >
        > MarkRoest: Perhaps, if you do the homework first. :: So back to the soap
        > example ...
        >
        > Wael: I can imagine if we develop high perfromed 3D design, may be with
        > some animation .. it will be great material to support larg scale
        > project with large scale change leverage :: ok
        >
        > MarkRoest: This is a model that other social change activists and
        > generalists can also work with, in parallel with your efforts.
        >
        > Wael: We can start with that this summer: Build a big solar heater, get
        > recepties for the herbal-flafoured-soap, and develop a tradmark in the
        > incubater of "Asrary", for organic agro-manufactering, I am partnering with
        >
        > MarkRoest: What I am going to present and develop a bit with you is a
        > method (which you can adapt to your needs)
        >
        > Wael: I believe the idea of modular communial green ecosystem of
        > produation/cell will gain larg glaobal attention, as it is part of
        > "standarlization" a global green-tradmarket and global coperative
        > association which can bridge money need, by exchaninge goods
        >
        > MarkRoest: of building the social momentum and economic base for
        > starting projects in a way that may get people outside to add resources
        > as you go along. :: I agree with you totally.
        >
        > Wael: the cell can be taylored any where acoodring to building material,
        > raw-matrials for food production, ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: The point is how you can bootstrap it into existence :: You
        > face the same problem as people in poor areas in Africa :: where people
        > are saying, I have this vision and I just need it funded.
        >
        > Wael: for me the idea is simple in tactis, and huge in influence. If no
        > bodey thought examin it before, we can formulate it as trategical
        > project for 21-century new economics :: the formulation can find big
        > attention and join-ventures
        >
        > MarkRoest: I had a vision of an advanced wind turbine and just needed to
        > hire an aerodynamic engineer and a structural engineer to help me design
        > it. :: That was in 1975. :: It led to 10 years trying to help the
        > inventor of the Captive Column, Lawrence Bosch.
        >
        > Wael: when the people in africa have a complete tool-kit starting from
        > the architecteure, which they can build with local abilities with some
        > consulting things would change .. and if they know they will be
        > connected to the any one is developing the cell, the empowermnet is emmense
        >
        > MarkRoest: It is only simple in tactics if you have a foundation for action.
        >
        > Wael: the cluse of open modularity and cells-networks can include many
        > projects are already developed or in development, such as your wind turbine.
        >
        > MarkRoest: Do you know about the people in Benin who are building
        > agricultural machinery?
        >
        > Wael: *the clue
        >
        > MarkRoest: They influence others, but the influence tapers off.
        >
        > Wael: no .. but I know about others
        >
        > MarkRoest: I agree with your concepts, and the capability to formulate
        > them as large trajectories. :: Your challenge is to mobilize people who
        > are ordinary on the surface.
        >
        > Wael: the collective intellgence of the cell-design can be comvered by
        > relevent pattern-language, which will include many existing designs. But
        > again I think the eco-architecture is the first start
        >
        > MarkRoest: Songhai -- I just remembered the name. :: They were helped to
        > get going by the co-founder of Gaviotas, it turns out. :: How many
        > people who function at your mental level do you know?
        >
        > Wael: we are almost heading on new global intellgent initiatives .. it
        > took me 7 years to think about one with significance
        >
        > MarkRoest: That makes you a philosopher. :: How many people who function
        > at your mental level do you know?
        >
        > Wael: let me count: may be 15 :: but there are many who trust me very much
        >
        > MarkRoest: What are their knowledge sets, and where do they live? (We'll
        > get to those who trust you in a bit.)
        >
        > Wael: Many in the states, some in Israel, some in EU, one in Egypt, 3 in
        > Palestine
        >
        > MarkRoest: (The 15 are key to identifying a possible growth path for
        > you.) :: Who are the 3 in Palestine, and what are their skill sets?
        >
        > Wael: none of them it technicion ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: That's ok
        >
        > Wael: some names: Samie Awad from Holy Land Trust :: Tarek from United
        > Religion Initiative
        >
        > MarkRoest: What is Samie's role?
        >
        > Wael: Khaled Islaih, a visionary futurist :: the CEO
        >
        > MarkRoest: And is the Trust a land trust or a financial trust?
        >
        > Wael: same as Tarek, who is leading volunteering for peace in the middle
        > east :: http://www.holylandtrust.org/
        >
        > MarkRoest: The same as -- Tarek is a CEO, or he is a visionary activist,
        > or both??
        >
        > Wael: Tarek is global thinker , CEO if volunteering for peace
        >
        > MarkRoest: Looks like Sami is also. :: I followed the link.
        >
        > Wael: yes .. Sami is absolute great human :: he is trying to get the
        > global solar village to Palestine for example.
        >
        > MarkRoest: How many people in Palestine occupied territories are in his
        > organization, and is the global solar village a prototype or a design?
        >
        > Wael: Mark, I know that I need editorial help to formulate global-local
        > vision based on the "cell"-design/network
        >
        > MarkRoest: I want to get across foundations to support its development
        > in the real world, first; :: I do understand and support your vision.
        >
        > Wael: am not sure about the number .. it is a desgin done in Tamera Oct.
        > last year
        >
        > MarkRoest: Rough guess on the number?
        >
        > Wael: calling him ;)
        >
        > MarkRoest: Can you give me an outline of the size and nature of the
        > elements of the design? :: Whie you are at it, can he tell you how many
        > are in each of the separated enclaves? :: Those are the groups who can
        > easily work and coordinate with each other.
        >
        > Wael: about 100
        >
        > MarkRoest: Very good!
        >
        > Wael: he has 25 employees from the 100
        >
        > MarkRoest: Can he give you a rough geographic distribution? :: I am
        > thinking about the walls and checkpoints.
        >
        > Wael: the avarage village in Palestine has 1500 inhabitants. :: around
        > Jenin alone there is around 50 villages
        >
        > MarkRoest: How many of his people are in a given village? :: on average?
        >
        > AndriusKulikauskas: Hi Mark, Wael, :: I just briefly wanted to say hi.
        > :: Many people came by yesterday. :: Thank you for chatting here.
        >
        > Wael:
        > http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Israel,+Jenin&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.456673,93.076172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Jenin,+Israel&ll=32.462067,35.302537&spn=0.164537,0.363579&t=p&z=12
        >
        > MarkRoest: and what are some of the ones (Hello Andrius!) where he has
        > the most people in one enclosed area?
        >
        > AndriusKulikauskas: I'm resting today and tomorrow and Tuesday I hope to
        > make my plans for the year
        >
        > Wael: the cell should be located between 2 to 3 villages in the first
        > phase :: we must allow potential for seeding new cells
        >
        > MarkRoest: we are having a strategy session for small local developments.
        >
        > AndriusKulikauskas: also Mark, I'm collecting our "dreams-in-life"
        > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?Dreams if you write yours here then I
        > will add it to our list
        >
        > Wael: each cell should lets say get work for 100 people .. the cell it
        > cell will have growth capacity as well
        >
        > MarkRoest: Are there places where 2-3 villages are in the same sector,
        > so there are no walls between them?
        >
        > Wael: the cells must be inside the wall! There is minor ammount of
        > check-points these days
        >
        > MarkRoest: Or how many villages are in contiguous sectors?
        >
        > Wael: http://stopthewall.org/maps/1159.shtml
        >
        > MarkRoest: I am trying to understand both how many leaders and how many
        > villages are in some of the walled areas.
        >
        > Wael: HEY Andrius :) :: you have been always a great host ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: I thought it was much more fragmented than that!
        >
        > Wael: it is cut in 3 major parts
        >
        > MarkRoest: Please lead me through that last map.
        >
        > Wael: but in each part is enough space to network 5 sub-senters in on
        > regional-center. So we will have 3 or 4 regional centers :: in the North
        > you have Jenin,
        >
        > MarkRoest: Are the Iraeli roads are effective dividers?
        >
        > Wael: you can drive till Zatara Checkpoint without problem :: today we
        > can use the Israeli raids cutting WestBank a cross till the wall-side ::
        > near Jerusalem it is more complicated. There are two walls-systems
        >
        > MarkRoest: How many people live north of Zatara in that region?
        >
        > Wael: on is cutting east-Jeruslam from Israel-area
        >
        > MarkRoest: How far does it go? and does the road to Jerusalem make an
        > effective barrier?
        >
        > Wael: about half Million :: WestBANK in total 2,5 Million I think :: YES
        > .. we can not reac hJeruslam withou tcontorl and permit :: but the road
        > is open to the south
        >
        > MarkRoest: So you can conduct commerce between north and south regions
        > of the west bank?
        >
        > Wael: YES
        >
        > MarkRoest: Greate! :: Looking at the map from a military point of view,
        > I see it as Zionist competition for water.
        >
        > Wael: only when the situation is stable .. but any time Israel can close
        > the check-points
        >
        > MarkRoest: got it
        >
        > Wael: it makes the design more attractive
        >
        > MarkRoest: Are there any sources of natural water in the West Bank?
        >
        > Wael: 1. we have rain water
        >
        > MarkRoest: How many inches or cm per year?
        >
        > Wael: every house in the village has its rainwater-collecter/well
        >
        > MarkRoest: How far below the surface is the ground-water level?
        >
        > Wael: http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=430
        >
        > MarkRoest: What is your sense of whether the water table will be
        > maintained in the Jordan River watershed, based on Israeli agricultural
        > and industrial policy?
        >
        > Wael: Around 600 mcm of the annual rainfall :: am not getting the
        > question right .. :: But I think we need very intellgent water-managent
        > start on individual level .. to village de-centralized swage-plants run
        > by PV and biogas provding agri-water
        >
        > MarkRoest: I just scanned the article and I agree with you.
        >
        > Wael: the village will build such plants if they know they are usfull
        > for the cell-networs :: so the cirises can be solved on the local level ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: More than that, I see that the policy around water from
        > Israel's side is competitive, not cooperative..
        >
        > Wael: many villages are on the top of the hills, which is great to run
        > micro-irrigation by gravity :: it is policy based on power-asymmetry
        >
        > MarkRoest: What you are saying is actually the core of the necessary
        > progress for survival.
        >
        > Wael: if we bring the power to orgnic level , then .. :: I have a good
        > imagine. Do you know greening the desert video?
        >
        > MarkRoest: Better than that, I am friends with a person who knows how to
        > do it, and I know 2 others.
        >
        > Wael: we can dig thousands of these water-collection channels ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: Yes.
        >
        > Wael: we can connect the sewage-plants on the higher hils to the
        > micro-irrigation network
        >
        > MarkRoest: and you can store water in the surface ground features using
        > permaculture principles.
        >
        > Wael: so we will have agiculture over the year almost :: yep
        >
        > MarkRoest: Yes.
        >
        > Wael: :)
        >
        > MarkRoest: That is also a matter of knowing what plants to use.
        >
        > Wael: it can be a complete ecosystem-medium of connecting every thing in
        > sustainblity
        >
        > MarkRoest: Is the topography of the hills rough enough that there are
        > natural storage reservoir potentials near the wells?
        >
        > Wael: yeh .. :: here an there you find water leaks to the top in the
        > mountains
        >
        > MarkRoest: Or are there gradual hills where cut-and-fill can be used to
        > create reservoirs? :: you mean springs?
        >
        > Wael: yes .. but waek one :: there is an issue there. you must know that
        > the WestBank is devides also in A-B-C area
        >
        > MarkRoest: Has anyone done relatively detailed hydrology of the Occupied
        > Territories? :: Yes, I know it's divided, but not just how.
        >
        > Wael: Area A: contorl is for Palestinian :: B: for both :: C: only for
        > Israel
        >
        > MarkRoest: I see that from the map
        >
        > Wael:
        > http://peoplesnetworks.net/publication/content/photos/nofziondocuments/Map3_WB_ABC.pdf
        > :: so, we will not get permit for water collection that easy
        >
        > MarkRoest: But what you have told me so far is enough to believe that a
        > viable agricultural economy can be maintained within the A areas, and
        > possibly in the B areas asa well.
        >
        > Wael: so the channels we have described above must be sort .. only in B,
        > .. not sure about scenario :: but area C is of huge importance . :: it
        > can provide the cells of wild herbals for example :: dry land
        > permaculture as well
        >
        > MarkRoest: C means Israeli control exclusivity, right? :: Do
        > Palestinians have wild-crafting / foraging access to C areas?
        >
        > Wael: right. It means, if the village want to build a school they must
        > ask Israel
        >
        > MarkRoest: But the population is not displaced by Israelis?
        >
        > Wael: yes :: only not behind the wall
        >
        > MarkRoest: Got it. :: Let's go back to how to use the water. :: Do each
        > (or most) of the villages have viable wells?
        >
        > Wael: yes .. but the problem is that water consumption enacreased thanks
        > to civilization :: so that it is not enough .. water tap pipes reach
        > most of the villages now
        >
        > MarkRoest: You are going to have to use the peacemakers to change
        > habits, once you have a new pattern to follow.
        >
        > Wael: BUT when ater saving and collection, using become part of economic
        > solution oroginal hiratages behavior will become active
        >
        > MarkRoest: And once you have a real system in place to convince them
        > that there is an alternative to 'just consuming' :: Exactly!!!
        >
        > Wael: it is about reviving healthy known habits who are not profitable
        > any more
        >
        > MarkRoest: By making them profitable once again!
        >
        > Wael: money damaged lot of things .. it rpelaced natural-capital,
        > social-coopartion, .. :: this is the idea .. thats why "direct
        > wonership" is on the top of the rpincibles of the "body"
        >
        > MarkRoest: So, back to the question of whether water can be stored on
        > the hilltops, beyond home-based cisterns.
        >
        > Wael: I studies this point a bit :: there are leagl frames from Israel,
        > who much water can be stored and how :: for example you can not build a dame
        >
        > MarkRoest: Related question: how much of the water used in agriculture
        > first appears below the hills, and how much first shows up on them? ::
        > What is allowed? and what are the limits to the regulations, that could
        > be worked around?
        >
        > Wael: but you can build small water tanks for 100 cubic meter on the surface
        >
        > MarkRoest: ok, how many in a village? or is that currently unlimited?
        >
        > Wael: the good thing, there is enough possibilities to start now. Once
        > we have more political stablity better regulation will follow
        >
        > MarkRoest: But what is the specific answer to the question as of now?
        >
        > Wael: currenty there is no sewage water use at all as it is not
        > processed. Rain water is almost enough for cleaning makeing tee, etc
        >
        > MarkRoest: how many tanks can be built, and how much water could be
        > gathered for filling them, in an average village of 1000 people?
        >
        > Wael: people are not using , as they do not see advantage in it. They
        > got there drink water from the pipe and many of them do not practice
        > agriculture any more
        >
        > MarkRoest: rainwater and groundwater combined, before considering
        > recycling. :: I am trying to lead you into decisive analysis here.
        >
        > AndriusKulikauskas: You are having a great chat! and of course you know
        > we have an archive, too
        >
        > Wael: every how can ave its own well. They use electircal motors as
        > pumps. Here we need an alternative for pumping
        >
        > MarkRoest: of what is possible.
        >
        > Wael: every one :: *
        >
        > MarkRoest: Your answer is not yet clear.
        >
        > Wael: there is no limitation for the number of tanks.. but I must check
        >
        > MarkRoest: OK, so the limitation is the hydrology described in the
        > article you linked to. :: That is likely to be the gating factor in the end.
        >
        > Wael: I need to do rough calculation
        >
        > MarkRoest: I am trying to get at a few different answers here. :: 1. How
        > much water falls or can be sustainably drawn from wells on the hilltops
        > where the villages are.
        >
        > Wael: lets focus on the village with 100 cm a year
        >
        > MarkRoest: 2. How much water falls or can be sustainably drawn from
        > wells on the agricultural lands below, and
        >
        > AndriusKulikauskas: tweet: Wael and Mark are chatting about sustainable
        > Palestine http://www.worknets.org/chat/
        >
        > MarkRoest: 3. How much re-use can be made of the water on the hilltops?
        > :: Is that 100 cm per year rainfall only?
        >
        > Wael: any local water expert can answer these question with aduacate
        > anylsis and I know one :: No, this is usage :: per person :: annual
        > rainfall is about 600 mcm
        >
        > MarkRoest: Good. In the macro scale, we will need to know eventually how
        > much is available for crops, and how much can be drawn from the acquifer
        > or needs to be put into the acquifer to maintain it. :: What is mcm?
        >
        > Wael: milli cubic metere :: if i am not wrong
        >
        > MarkRoest: Do you mean million cubic meters, and if so, on how much
        > area? We need it broken down to how much is available In the local area
        > used for farming around each village. Also, we need to have a basic
        > understanding of what levels of use are sustainable for the watersheds.
        > :: The human sustainable economy is built on that foundation. :: Can you
        > tell me in centimeters per year rainfall, as in a raingauge measuring
        > device? :: And, do you have an idea of how much water in cubic meters
        > can be drawn from the collective wells of an average village of 1000
        > people? :: Divided between wells in the village, on the hilltop, and
        > wells below in the fields? :: that is enough to do basic design work. ::
        > Later we will need to know the specifics for as many villages as possible.
        >
        > Wael: Some how I went out of the chat window and can not see it all now
        >
        > MarkRoest: With this information you can go beyond basic miminalist
        > survival strategies to defining the sustainable carrying capacity of a
        > given economic design that uses a given amount of water per village. ::
        > I will copy it and paste it into this window.
        >
        > Wael: Mark, I can get these question answered
        >
        > MarkRoest: Can you see what I wrote while you were out now?
        >
        > Wael: look at the picture on Marda Farm FaceBook group Murad tok last
        > week :: there is good rain and the soil is great
        >
        > MarkRoest: Can you see what I wrote while you were out now?
        >
        > Wael: i see only from this on : [20:46] <Mark_Roest> With this
        > information you can go beyond basic miminalist survival strategies to
        > defining the sustainable carrying capacity of a given economic design
        > that uses a given amount of water per village.
        >
        > MarkRoest: Let me copy the rest and try to paste it in. I will also set
        > up an RTF file so I can email it to you.
        >
        > Wael: okay
        >
        > MarkRoest: whispers: Welcome to Chat in the Public Domain. WorkNets, a
        > culture for independent thinkers.! :: It did not work, it only took the
        > first line. Andrius, can you assist? I did successfully paste it into an
        > RTF file.
        >
        > Wael: Mark, I have an radio-interview now ..
        >
        > MarkRoest: Wael, what email address should I use right now to send the
        > file to you?
        >
        > Wael: I send u an invitation to put it on Marda goole-project-site
        >
        > MarkRoest: I will wrap up where I was going and send that to you also. OK
        >
        > Wael: edit the wiki and create a page
        >
        > MarkRoest: I'll go back to that.
        >
        > Wael: As said .. I am willing to write a manifesto about the "cell" ::
        > to use it to talk to the world :: espeecilly to local universities and
        > research instetution :: NGOS :: etc.
        >
        > MarkRoest: You will need to have the kind of thing I have been driving
        > for in this talk to make it work.
        >
        > Wael: 250 millimeter :: to 400 :: Wael are you there?
        >
        > MarkRoest: Thanks!
        >
        > Wael: now i have to leave
        >
        > MarkRoest: I am still there.
        >
        > Wael: my dad gave me the number about rain fall :: i passed it
        >
        > MarkRoest: Bye! Have a good interview!
        >
        > Wael: thanks Mark!! :: thanks for energizing me :: and the idea
        >
        > MarkRoest: That's 16 inches per year for British / U.S. system users. ::
        > I mean, That's 10 to 16 inches per year for British / U.S. system users.
        > :: From what Wael said ([20:47] <Wael> look at the picture on Marda Farm
        > FaceBook group Murad tok last week), there is uneven rainfall :: Sorry,
        > he said, [20:47] <Wael> look at the picture on Marda Farm FaceBook group
        > Murad tok last week -- there is good rain and the soil is great :: That
        > tells us that probably they have more rain than the average 250 to 450
        > cm / 10 to 16 inches per year. :: Or, they have already learned the
        > lessons the rest of Palestine needs to learn, and are an existing
        > successful pilot case. :: Or, a third possibility, they have gone beyond
        > that in that area, and are actually succeeding in stimulating rainfall,
        > which is one of the kinds of things my friend talks about. :: To build a
        > long term planning process in the Occupied Territories and beyond, it is
        > important to know which is which here. :: In this chat we have been
        > functioning at three levels, basically. :: 1. I have been trying to find
        > out the basics for designing an optimal sustainable village economy, or
        > diverse versions if there are substantial differences among the
        > ecosystms around the villages. :: 2. Wael has been working to articulate
        > his concept of an organizing system, supported by buildings in which
        > people can easily do business, and which has the strength to get people
        > to listen. :: 3. We have been starting to paint a picture of how the
        > villages operate now, and the details of the context of occupation. ::
        > The chat was titled, The Palestinian Rural Empire and Global Green
        > Palestine :: We clearly did not reach that point, partly because we
        > didn't realize and discuss that we were functioning on levels 1 and 2
        > from the start. :: But we would not have covered all that ground in 2
        > hours anyway. :: At the level of the title, it is possible to make rural
        > Palestine prosperous, even with an input of 250 to 450 cm water
        > annually. :: The global Palestinian diaspora can indeed learn
        > permaculture as a way of thought and life, and mobilize resources and
        > specific technical knowledge to help bring prosperity to the people
        > still in Occupied Palestine. :: Open source versions of the same
        > software tools that enable large corporations to coordinate efficiently
        > :: can be used by the world's Palestinian population and their
        > supporters to make this powerful and effective. :: The planning and
        > implementation for the short, medium and long term need to proceed
        > concurrently; :: they need to proceed in a context of full display of
        > the progress in all three timeframes; :: also on the different
        > geographical scales, and within the different discipline clusters. ::
        > This kind of display environment can be pulled together within a few
        > months, if people support it. :: The simultaneous planning processes are
        > possible because people can join the specific ones that they have
        > competence and interest in, and each process can take time to keep up
        > with the discoveries and plans made by the others. :: This is similar to
        > how a well-run business or institution functions. :: If a relative few
        > people and organizations start it, they will attract more through their
        > success. :: Going back to 21:20, I attended a permaculture workshop at
        > SolFest a couple of years ago in which the presenter said that even 9
        > inches a year was sufficient, if the water is stored in a variety of
        > managed surface and sub-surface features. :: I know that the Israelis
        > pioneered drip irrigation systems, and one NGO has designed a very
        > simple, far less expensive drip system. :: It is coming at the problem
        > from multiple directions. :: You store the water that does come, :: you
        > deliver it exactly where it is needed, in the amounts that are needed
        > there, :: and you design your gardens with plants that meet your
        > nutritional needs without demanding more water than you can provide. ::
        > With a combination of approaches like this, you can actually replenish
        > acquifers in the desert. :: You also have to thoroughly manage
        > non-garden water use in the villages. :: There can be kitchen gardens at
        > every home that has any ground around it at all, and their soil can be
        > built using compost from the home. :: There could be two composting
        > systems, one for the bathroom (with a little dry cellulose fiber added
        > with each use), :: and one for the kitchen. :: The bathroom can have a
        > rather large composting toilet. Properly managed, it does not smell up
        > the house. :: If you arrange the kitchen and the bathroom on opposite
        > sides of a common wall, and reinforce it so putting a hole in it does
        > not damage it structurally, :: you can have a single composting system,
        > but I do not know the health and safety aspects of this in any depth. ::
        > If people decide to get into researching compost systems for human
        > waste, there is a Norwegian researcher who can be contacted through
        > Ianto Evans, of the Cob Cottage Company in Cottage Grove, Oregon. :: To
        > start with, separate systems are better. The human waste compost can be
        > tilled into the ground and left for a season or a year. ::
        > Alternatively, and better if you can make the tanks, the human waste and
        > a portion of the vegetable matter can be put into anaerobic digesters,
        > which will kill most pathogens and produce methane gas. :: You can then
        > use various kinds of separators to remove the water, and running it
        > through a reed bed with the right plants in it can cleanse the water
        > enough for gardening, and perhaps washing, use. That also makes the
        > solids light enough to more easily distribute as soil amendments. :: As
        > my father (born in Holland in 1898) taught, "waste not, want not!" ::
        > Ideally, there will be a cluster of related mini-movements researching
        > and experimenting to see what works and is pleasing to Palestinian
        > sensibilities, in the kitchen (solar cooking, frying with methane as
        > fuel, dishwashing, food storage), around cleaning clothes, :: in
        > managing kitchen gardens, in community gardening and private farms in
        > the fields below, :: in making the tools and equipment for all these
        > activities (in most cases it will be better economically to make locally
        > than to import, even if the immediate price is higher, because the money
        > will recirculate) :: in each kind of cottage and industrial
        > manufacturing business, :: in oursourcing services to earn foreign
        > exchange, :: and in developing all the resources needed to sustain life
        > and make it fulfilling. :: You can also divide the Israeli population,
        > even to some extent among the 'settlers', by teaching sustainability and
        > peace processes to any who are drawn to your work and lifestyles, and
        > sharing with them how to teach those they can influence. :: This will
        > eventually take the force out of Zionism as a dominator ideology. ::
        > After all, dominator ideologies are as primitive as chickens and their
        > pecking order -- someone else pecks me, so I peck anyone weaker. ::
        > Meanwhile, you can rebuild the unity in the greater Palestinian
        > community, and this will vastly increase you capacity to resist further
        > reduction in your land and resource bases. :: That sort of covers short
        > and medium-short timeframes 'in a nutshell'. :: The medium time-frame
        > needs to be focused on mapping what soils you have, learning the Soil
        > Food Web material and methodologies <www.soilfoodweb.com> as well as
        > Permaculture, and BioIntensive Gardening (John Jeavons), and BioDynamic
        > Gardening, and maybe Yoruba (a Nigerian culture) heap gardening (3-foot
        > high mounds, each with its own community of plants, extremely
        > productive). :: It also needs to be implementing things rather than
        > studying them to death, using the Agile Programming philosophy ::
        > release early and release often) :: I know you want to get buildings up
        > for organizations, but you would achieve more if you keep that
        > makeshift, and dispersed, and put most energy into doing things among
        > the people and organizing them where they are. :: make that teaching
        > them, learning from them, and supporting / facilitating them in
        > organizing or re-establishing their traditional community regulation,
        > decision and action processes. :: Also, you might consider, as a program
        > for the diaspora to organize and fund, getting the newest or next
        > generation of OLPC XOs in the hands of the children in the Occupied
        > Territories, and working with Ed Cherlin and Earth Treasury to help
        > develop, and to translate, the new digital curriculum being developed
        > with his encouragement. :: People like Doug Engelbart, inventor of much
        > of the computer user interface we take for granted, and Alan Kaye,
        > developer of the SmallTalk programming language (to teach his children
        > to program) which is included with every XO. :: make that XO, are
        > involved in this effort. Ed is a friend of mine and on :: Andrius'
        > forums. :: If you do everything possible with the people where they
        > stand, in the facilities that still stand, as your priority, they will
        > observe your direction as well as what you actually do. :: Many of them
        > will get the sense of it, and will assume their roles in collaboration
        > with you. Then all of you together will reach a point at which you can
        > say, it is time to design and build separate facilities for these cells
        > you have supported us in developing. :: Make your work open source as
        > in, widely available through the 115 or more committed volunteers and
        > activists you have direct access to :: and done in full view of the
        > communities in which they live. :: Coordinate with increasing skill
        > using the means of communications and knowledgebase development
        > available to you (that will shortly get much better!) :: so you keep
        > feeding new, highly relevant and effective, knowledge to each community
        > through the team members who live there. :: This process (22:40-41,
        > 22:43-46) will expand the team and create a new distributed leadership /
        > teaching role that can be coordinated for concerted regional and
        > Territories-wide action. :: It will also build the community economy
        > from the roots up (literally!), so there is progressively more money
        > available for strategic purposes, :: to catalyse the communities in
        > reaching the next objectives. :: This is the overall methodology in a
        > nutshell. :: It is time for me to go; I will try to post this as
        > requested. :: Regards, :: Mark :: Andrius, Please fix the problem that
        > blocked Wael's access to the early part of the chat, and make sure it is
        > all posted in the archives, and let others know the nature of the
        > content we have put into it. Thank you!
        >
        > Wael: Hey Mak again .. so much insparations
        >
        > MarkRoest: It's actually a methodology that this opportunity is helping
        > me get documented.\ :: Regarding "I send u an invitation to put it on
        > Marda goole-project-site", was that an email invitation or on facebook?
        >
        > Wael: some how I can ot get into the discussion
        >
        > MarkRoest: I should post it as you said; you could set up the wiki and
        > ping me that it is ready, and I can post the whole conversation, which I
        > have in a separate rtf file. :: Then you can review the whole, and pick
        > it up where I left off. :: By the way, when you reach the mid-range, you
        > may be able to economically justify (and get matching funds for)
        >
        > Wael: it was to your gmail-address
        >
        > MarkRoest: advanced anaerobic digesters which make high-grade biogas
        > (68% methane, negligible hydrogen sulfides) which can be used to make
        > electricity in each village's livestock areas; shops can be set up
        > nearby to use the electricity without transmission costs or losses. ::
        > Great, I'll take a look. :: [note to self] I'm going to save the file
        > with my Renewables West work.
        >
        > Wael: hello :: hello
        >
        > -------------------------------------------
        >
        > Taha: hi :: any body there?
        >
        > Inas: hey
        >
        > Winston: Hello? :: Good luck Wael. If and when the consciousness shift
        > reaches a critical mass, humanity, and indeed consciousness itself which
        > includes all living and inanimate things of the entire universe, then
        > the evolution toward the next time period of the universe will progress.
        > Without this shift, there will be a mass extinction of species, which is
        > in the midst of happening now. This extinction will include :: will
        > include humans and evidence supports that this is also happening by
        > global growth of refugees, extreme climate conditions which impacts
        > agriculture and community life support systems. Your work, like mine,
        > and the millions of others who are so passionately engaged comes from
        > the same spark which also has created the disaster. As strange as that
        > sounds, the two forces arise together. The play :: the play of life or
        > dance of life will always be a mystery, or at least while we have
        > bodies. Because we have bodies, we have duality. The seat of our
        > consciousness is not our brain, but our brain is also a part of us, of
        > our body. There is nothing to do except continue to do what we do.
        >
        > Andrius: Hi Fred and all, I'm back in the Lithuanian countryside. :: I
        > will rest tomorrow and Monday make a plan what to do next.
        >
        > Ifthkar: Salam :: /msg Wael hi
        >
        > Andrius: Salam :: I am in Lithuania, where are you? :: Do you kow Wael?
        > He is in Jenin, Palestine. :: Hi zohar atai, how are you? :: I'm in
        > Lithuania
        >
        > ZoharAtai: all right, just checking if its working. I am in Ohio, US
        >
        > Andrius: Hi :: How did you learn of our chat room?
        >
        > ZoharAtai: I'll enter the chat sunday,
        >
        > Andrius: great, is there something scheduled here? :: we're going to
        > schedule a check with Suresh Fernando I think some time next week. ::
        > and I try to be around a lot, too
        >
        > ZoharAtai: Oh, from the facebook invitation of Marda Parmaculture farm
        >
        > Andrius: I lead the Minciu Sodas laboratory http://www.ms.lt and
        > Worknets http://www.worknets.org :: oh that's great
        >
        > ZoharAtai: I'll look into your project as well
        >
        > Andrius: do you have that link to the facebook? :: or the invitation
        > details when will the chat be and who is organizing it?
        >
        > ZoharAtai: http://www.facebook.com/inbox/?tid=1251731026917 :: O.k. ::
        > I'll come back Sunday, all the best
        >
        > Andrius: thank you
        >
        > Mohammed: hi all
        >
        > Andrius: Hi Mohammed :: Good to see you here :: I understand that you
        > will have a chat tomorrow.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?HolisticHelping
        >
        > Please note our rule: Each letter sent to the Holistic Helping group enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN unless it explicitly states otherwise.  Thank you!  http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Mark Roest
        Hello Peter, Do look at that Greening the Desert video Community Analytics (CA) if you have not already done so. It will give you a very low-cost baseline for
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 10, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Peter,

          Do look at that Greening the Desert video Community Analytics (CA) if you have not already done so. It will give you a very low-cost baseline for basic prosperity. The organizer mentions that the garden solves all of humanity's challenges. It certainly creates abundance, and a nice environment for considering what you want to do next after achieving that result!

          I would be happy to support you in what you are doing, if there is a way for me to do so.

          Regards,

          Mark

          On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Peter Burgess <peterbNYC@...> wrote:
           

          Dear Colleagues

          These are interesting chat transcripts ... and might be very useful to
          me in helping me to get the elements of Community Analytics (CA) more
          refined in the area of water and agriculture.

          Peter Burgess
          ___________
          Peter Burgess
          Tr-Ac-Net Inc ... The Transparency and Accountability Network
          Community Analytics (CA)
          Integrated Malaria Management (IMM)
          Microfinance Focus Magazine in New York
          website: www.tr-ac-net.org
          tel: 917 432 1191 or 212 772 6918 or 212 744 6469
          email: peterbnyc@...
          skype: peterburgessnyc
          Books: Search Peter Burgess at www.lulu.com

          ///////////////////////////////////////



          On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...> wrote:
          > I share a transcript from Mark Roest's and Wael al Saad's chat today
          > about sustainable Palestine.  It's also available here:
          > http://www.worknets.org/archive/index.pl?mon=0&mday=10&year=2010
          > Wael, see also the transcript from the day before, which I include
          > further below.
          > Thank you for using our chat room!  http://www.worknets.org/chat/
          > Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.ms.lt, ms@...
          > --------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN unless it explicitly states otherwise.  Thank you!  http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org

          .


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