Fw (from LFEO): Pamela leads our World Without Poverty//thanks for this discussion: note "holistic" references, all!
- Pamela McLean, Thank you for your letter which I share. I acknowledge my
monetary debt to you and thank you for your monthly support and the
simplest is just to keep acknowledging your support until my debt is
cleared. Or let me know if you need the money and I will send it to you.
Your help came at a crucial time in organizing our Ethical Public Domain
workshop in Vilnius when I was completely broke.
I also note our chat yesterday and your leadership of our Minciu Sodas
laboratory's work to end poverty:
where we're starting to list Poverty Challengers - people like Peter
Ongele, Kiyavilo Msekwa, Sasha Mrkailo and me who are facing
underemployment (please let us know if you would like to be added to our
list!) and also WorldWithoutPovertyTasks - how our various endeavors are
helping us create a world without poverty as inspired by Muhammad Yunus's
book "Creating a World Without Poverty".
I share a portion of yesterday's chat by Pamela McLean, Samwel Kongere and
Andrius Kulikauskas where we discuss our thoughts on a world without
poverty. I will add my perspective that my own priority is to make
poverty more comfortable rather than to end poverty.
Peace, Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.ms.lt, ms@..., +1
312 618 3345
Pam: THat is fine Sam - we understand. :: I will just remind us of an
excerpt.. :: Having a dream about a better world is fun. Why not interact
to help make the reality closer too? My suggestion: create a small
organisation we call a Social Action Forum. It can be as small as three
people who band together to address a single, manageable local problem. If
others want to join that's fine. But if you feel comfortable with three,
don't try to expand that number :: You might start a forum around a
neighbourhood improvement. Or if you live in a developing country, the
action forum might be built around helping a beggar find a job or
self-employment. Some social action forums may remain small, operate for 2
or 3 years and then disband. Others may grow bigger and bigger, and some
may become successful businesses.. An idea from one forum may inspire
AndriusKulikauskas: At our lab we have a list of Endeavors and we list
Endeavor Teams and so that would be a natural way to do that? or relate to
Pam: I think Andrius we ask poeple to discuss this idea
Pam: Interesting idea. :: so if people do think of a creatign a Social
Action Forum it can go up with our endeavours.
AndriusKulikauskas: My thought is that we have a culture with a lot to
contribute, so we might see what his ideas mean in our context, rather
than simply pursue his ideas. :: Especially because in some ways our
culture may be more developed and mature than his ideas.
Pam: and when the formal website is created thdy can go ther as well.
AndriusKulikauskas: And judging from the web, nobody has taken up his
ideas so directly :: so we could simply do that now :: and in our way that
makes sense to us :: and if he is interested then perhaps we can connect
with his groups
Samwel: I support the social forum of a smal group
AndriusKulikauskas: How do you imagine the small group, Samwel?
Pam: I think we can do it many ways :: I think he is encouraging ideas
from the grass roots up. :: I think that the more he recognises that our
initiatives fit what he is looking for the quicker we can work together.
AndriusKulikauskas: Yes so I encourage simply taking action. :: Here is a
page I have set up just now:
http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?WorldWithoutPoverty :: that makes sense
in the context of our lab. :: Pamela, I put you down as the EndeavorLeader
for this Endeavor to create a world without poverty. :: I think it is good
to have a clear leader - that is in the spirit of our lab for independent
Samwel: They will more focused, some large groups get confused with their
focus and cannot expand.
Pam: That is why I would call thsee new groups Social Action Forums rather
than Endeavours - we will know what we mean and he will recognise the
description Social Action Forum
AndriusKulikauskas: and also in Muhammad Yunus work he is a clear leader
himself, I think :: Yes that is why I am hoping we can have these Endeavor
teams, each with a clear leader, focus and small team :: and there can be
many endeavors and they can work together.
Pam: but if we do them accordign to his leadership suggestions then he
will be more ready to support us - just as you are more ready to support
us in MS when we do things as you like them to be done.
AndriusKulikauskas: Yes perhaps it's a choice
Samwel: I am not getting up well here too connection you will excuse me .
Pam: Everyone who read teh book will undestadn an endevour if it is called
a Social Action Forum...
AndriusKulikauskas: for me it's a matter of getting it right :: and our
Minciu Sodas culture is a result of that :: so my first interest is what
would be optimal for independent thinkers. :: I want to encourage
independent thinkers :: and so I think that it's preferable to encourage
individual leadership :: and I think Muhammad Yunus's success is related
to that - he is a leader first as an individual
Samwel: I am keeping up the editing
AndriusKulikauskas: I think we have made some successes in overcoming
poverty :: and Samwel's example is one :: and it was based on his
individual leadership and our support of that :: So I think it's just as
important that our culture influence Muhammad Yunus's ideas and not simply
take them up as they are :: especially because his ideas are speculative
:: and formulaic :: and I think if we can show how they might work in our
reality :: than if he is interested, that's great :: and if he's not
interested, then we are at least doing what's right for us :: and we can
understand that he won't reach out to us.
Pam: I hope we will find great overlap :: I love what has been done by MS
:: I am also very interested in the book :: I admire your work and his
AndriusKulikauskas: yes I am glad that you take from both :: that is why I
think we might take some direct actions :: and be able to point to our
projects and see if they are interested
Pam: I think that reading his book will spark useful ideas and actions
AndriusKulikauskas: because there are people, for example, Chris Macrae
who aren't attracted to me or our lab, but are attracted to concrete
projects and people, like Samwel's work
Kongere: I went off line
AndriusKulikauskas: so our concrete actions are very helpful for
communicating :: Samwel, what is your plan for the coming months?
Pam: Sam - will you look at the archive for what you missed?
AndriusKulikauskas: Pamela, aside from discussing his book, what are steps
that you think we could take in eliminating poverty?
Kongere: Prips and planning. :: YesI will check
Pam: I think we learn from the lessons of PoP
Kongere: I mean for the next two months I will planning and travelling to
meet new contact
Pam: the people on the grouund who were invovled in taking practical
action are the ones who can best express need, and local ways of tackling
it. :: Minciu Sodas provides a place for them to come and see it in a
wider context. :: to analyse the situation and consider strategy :: I am
interested in the chapter in Yunus book which talks about ICT. :: I think
MS has very useful experiences to feed into that when the time is right.
:: I think we work small and in replicable ways.
AndriusKulikauskas: Samwel, great and when you travel, please I encourage
you to collect emails and permissions, and also people's deepest values
and investigatory questions, because that expands our group!
Pam: I think that Ricardo and you are doing great work with the Includer
Pam: SO we can move from "someone who has a phone" to someone who has an
AndriusKulikauskas: one idea, Pam, is for us all to write where we see
poverty :: and where we might respond
Pam: the minimalist cyber-cafe/informaion hub
AndriusKulikauskas: what is poverty? perhaps it means different things in
different place :: Samwel, what is the poverty that you would respond to?
Pam: It is not just *where* is poverty but *what* :: yes
AndriusKulikauskas: we have helped give some work to people who had
trouble getting work :: including Samwel, Sasha, and some people in
Pam: I think poverty is not just lack of money - it is alck of opportunity
AndriusKulikauskas: and the work we gave I think helped them get more work
Pam: it is hard to make opportunity all on your own :: yes
AndriusKulikauskas: yes :: I keep thinking about how to improve our
Kongere: The source of income and livelihood forms the whole concept of
Pam: the internet can help us to come together to help each other to
AndriusKulikauskas: because there are quite a few things that I would pay
for that would help our lab but especially if I could meet people half way
:: so for example we don't have any help programming our websites and I am
short on time
Pam: I think we have lessons to learn form teh OPen Source movement
AndriusKulikauskas: but I don't and can't pay top dollar for that :: but I
would be happy to contribute
Kongere: Yes oportunities is one among other issues
Pam: and in Open Source people do the devekopment for many different reasons.
AndriusKulikauskas: Yes but it's also interesting that we have never
gotten help from Open Source programmers to help with our websites.
Pam: and in MS people may have many different reasons for being here.
Kongere: Yes open source movement is kind to our work
Pam: perhap they are all busy with their Open Source projects.
AndriusKulikauskas: I'm not sure of the reason, but we do need help, and
we don't get it
Pam: but I think perhaps we can learn something from their structures for
AndriusKulikauskas: generally we need customized help and that's not
interesting to many of them
Pam: I do not know enough about programming and your programming needs to
discuss that issues.
Kongere: Andrius Standard of living cannot make the appropriete atmosphere
for education and with Education to evry child we can create some source
of information,and reduce, ignorance, and create exposure.
AndriusKulikauskas: Samwel, that's helpful - to focus on education - and
Pamela speaks of overcoming ignorance
Pam: I something is interesting then people will appreciate the
opportunity to do it - and will not need to be "bribed/paid". :: if it is
not interesting or rewarding in some way then - even if they have the time
and skills to do it - they want payment
AndriusKulikauskas: yes I think you are right Pam and I think it's a
challenge to make some of the chores interesting :: and frankly there are
Kongere: Grassroot intervention is fine only if we are caring to the real
AndriusKulikauskas: Samwel what are the real needs?
Pam: If people have no time because all theri tiem is going on earning
theri living - then even if they want to do it they cannot afford to -
unless there is some payment
AndriusKulikauskas: yes well we can provide some money for small projects
if we know that people are self-directed and we are meeting them halfway
Kongere: It is with culture and traditions which make people what they are.
AndriusKulikauskas: that is a challenge in working with Sasha - what are
his own interests?
Pam: of course there chores ... that is why often it is one pserons who is
the "chief cook and bottle washer"
AndriusKulikauskas: and also with Kiyavilo - can he or others execute the
steps of a project? :: Samwel, what questions are you investigating now? A
question that you don't know the answer to, but wish to answer?
Kongere: Clothing, food, ,education and sustainabillity
Pam: because the good chief knows how important it is to have the small
boring chores done properly
AndriusKulikauskas: Pamela, perhaps we could make a plan for fighting
poverty? Steps that we want to take? :: Would you agree to be our leader
for this endeavor?
Pam: I am not good at grand plans... I prefer the apporach where we say -
what is the problem for one person and how do we solve it.
AndriusKulikauskas: that's a good approach
Pam: Becasue often it is the system whihc is causing theri problem
AndriusKulikauskas: so we could make a list of people and start helping ::
for example, Peter Ongele in Kenya, near Samwel, is asking for help
Pam: when you see how the system needs to be tweaked to solve the problem
for one person...
AndriusKulikauskas: Meanwhile, we can also map out that system by looking
at our list of Endeavors http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?Endeavors
Pam: you are on the way to altering teh system to make it easier for lots
fo other people who have teh same problem
AndriusKulikauskas: and we have more than 100 endeavors and perhaps 30 or
more have to do with overcoming poverty :: so we could map out that
ecosystem of endeavors
Pam: soem of these endavours might fit the idea of a Social Action Forum
AndriusKulikauskas: for example, we have endeavors to help particular
groups of people like orphans; to develop new technologies which provide
business opportunities; to create materials for self-education
Kongere: Yes I know Pete Ongele and I can have some simple fare to reach him
AndriusKulikauskas: Yes we could call say that our Endeavor teams play the
role of Social Action Forums
Pam: I think perhaps this is what Yunus wants to do... to see the patterns
behind all these little individul SAF endeavours.
AndriusKulikauskas: Samwel, how do you think that we could help Pete? ::
My instinct is that it is good for the Endeavor/SAF teams to have clear
Kongere: When I was collecting the food story I went to their area. And I
know is agriculturally rich.
Pam: yes - and if we see what people need to learn we can help other
people to learn that as well.
AndriusKulikauskas: so if we can learn how to have successful teams in our
context then that would be a great step forward
Kongere: We can find out if this can help him and the community.
AndriusKulikauskas: Yes Samwel I am interested to take next steps with My
AndriusKulikauskas: Also I am interested to create a "game" that would
help people participate in our culture, a game that could be played on the
web or on the Includer or even on paper.
Kongere: We can have awter Melon farm where Peter Ongele is and find some
people to work here for pay and then sell the produce to Cities near by
AndriusKulikauskas: The game would have straightforward questions,
sometimes hard, sometimes easy.
Pam: Ah water melon! :: that is interesting... :: Sam you should ask David
about teh water meon experiences in Ago-Are
AndriusKulikauskas: Yes, that is good, perhaps to have a list of ideas
with Peter, and then analyze which one is the most attractive for him.
Pam: It was a new idea, :: with many problems :: but last time I was there
it was going well, and I was given beautiful water melons as a parting
Kongere: The area where Peter comes is Productive with Wate melon and can
help the community know their potentiallity,
AndriusKulikauskas: Pamela, I did a Google search on "Creating a World
Without Poverty" and ISEP and our lab's websites come up as 5 of the 10
results, which means that we can take initiative here if you like
Pam: Mr TImothy and a woman farmer who is also a tailor came to give me
the gift early one morning - they were about to take a lot to sell
Kongere: I did the local survey myself and I have experience from this
area. :: Yes We have to get the problem indepth, do you think i can meet
him immediately Iam in Mbita.
Pam: ? ISEP?
AndriusKulikauskas: Pamela on our wiki we can make a list of
PovertyChampions our how should we call the people we can try to help?
Pam: is that the Yunus IT idea?
AndriusKulikauskas: ISEP is his IT Solutions to End Poverty
Pam: Ah I see.... :: MuhammadYunus, page 197: I propose giving this
potential movement a structure by creating an umbrella organization to
embody and support it. It might start as a virtual organization, then
later add one or more physical location as the movement grows in strength,
wealth, and importance. Let's call this organization the Center for
International Initiatives for IT Solutions to End Poverty - or, in br ::
.. in brief IT Solutions to End Poverty (ISEP). :: How will ISEP get
started? Any individual, groups of individuals, or organization (business,
NGO, foundation, or academic institution) can start it by presenting a
mission statement on the Web and asking others to join in the network.
Once it starts rolling, there might be a conference (virtual or physical)
to build a leadership team, to sort out the management issues, and to
establish a legal ent
AndriusKulikauskas: I tihnk I will call them PovertyChallengers at our
wiki, people like Peter Ongele
Pam: establish a legal entity that can accept funds and represent the
network to the public. :: Now I read that again I think I begin to
understand better what you are saying Andrius.
AndriusKulikauskas: You see I have started a list here:
http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?WorldWithoutPoverty :: of Poverty
Challengers and Poverty Challenges :: and the Poverty Challenges are our
Pam: So - This has been an excellent bookclub meeting :-) :: A focus on
two chapters and practical outcomes!
AndriusKulikauskas: Thank you, Pam! and Samwel!
Pam: Andrius I am not sure what expectations you have of me now regarding
this - I am happy to lead the discussions of the book in teh chat room
once a month.. :: and include it in LFEO...
Kongere: Lets's see tha list
Pam: but I do not have spare time for new things at present.
AndriusKulikauskas: yes that's fine, just trying to encourage your
leadership and vision :: and have concrete results come from that :: and
they will build
Kongere: Why don't people join the Chat
Pam: that is lovely.. :: YOu mean today Sam? :: It is really long past the
time for the chat. :: This is an extra bit to fit with American time for
AndriusKulikauskas: Pamela, so can you lead our work for a World Without
Poverty? and I will map out the ecosystem :: yes, thank you! I slept in.
Pam: A - what time is it for you?
Kongere: One more thing, Can I vist Peter Ongele on the Ground?
AndriusKulikauskas: 12:00 noon
Pam: 8 pm here
AndriusKulikauskas: Samwel, that would be good
Pam: what for you Sam?
Kongere: To find out the indepth of the problem? It might be to much
AndriusKulikauskas: I think he's willing to work publicly
Kongere: Yes ourselselves.
AndriusKulikauskas: also it's exciting that we know him through Jackton
Arija - we helped Jackton get food and then Jackton helped others get food
:: during the post-election turmoil :: and Jackton brought food to Peter
Ongele and he helped others get food ::
Pam: yes I will lead World Without Poverty group :: will we make it a new
AndriusKulikauskas: great! :: no :: we just use our wiki pages
Kongere: it is 7pm here
Pam: perahp I will not lead it then...
AndriusKulikauskas: your headquarters is at Learning From Each Other
AndriusKulikauskas: Pamela just do as you have been doing
Pam: but I have problems with wikis..
AndriusKulikauskas: we're just acknowledging that :: and then I can
support you :: well, let's practice some time!
Kongere: Look I know them both
Pam: Sam your network is wonderful :: and the way you also netwrok online
:: YOu adn Ken are both fantastic roel models for that combination
AndriusKulikauskas: Samwel thank you for your idea about watermelon and I
found your research from My Food Story and I have added that page
http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?Watermelon :: to our
Kongere: Ok Ineed to go god time having you together. Pam.
AndriusKulikauskas: Goodbye Samwel!
Pam: Bye Sam .... I hoped for pictures form Ago-Are for our food story
with teh camera I gave there :: but I did not do well enough about
expalinin why it was important.. :: and making it easy enough to send the
information :: adn greetings to Ken when you get to Nairobi :: I was sorry
I missed him :: Andrius I see benefits and disadvantages of including
WorldWithoutPoverty in LFEO
Pam: I think ther may be soem outsiders who are interested in WWP - but
not other LFEO discussions :: WWP could bring new people to MS..
AndriusKulikauskas: Well, it's best for us to organize around people,
leaders not topics :: so the group should relate to you and your interests
:: and people should be interested to support your leadership
Pam: is one perons allowed to have two groups?
AndriusKulikauskas: so it's not helpful to be too narrow :: I think let's
try to be holistic :: and have one group per person as much as we can
Pam: I think the question of tacklin poverty is very wide.
AndriusKulikauskas: yes that's fine :: and as we start up more groups for
more people, perhaps another group will become the headquarters for WWP ::
but meanwhile yours is the best for that, yes?
Pam: ok - but let us agree to always put WWP in front of the title of
posts :: then WWP people will not be distracted or annoyed byt topics that
are not WWP
AndriusKulikauskas: ok we can try that
Pam: I think we have good outcomes from this discussion.
AndriusKulikauskas: in the big picture, our priority is on building human
relationships, and so its important for participants to care more widely,
not just very narrow :: I'm glad, Pam! thank you for bringing us together
:: you make it easy to build on your work
Pam: It isyou who has brought us all together :: and you have made a home
for us on the Internet in mInciu Sodas :: Thank you for saying that
AndriusKulikauskas: See now the page:
http://www.worknets.org/wiki.cgi?WorldWithoutPoverty :: and we already
have started a list of people
Pam: one day I would like to find out what part of it you see as my work -
perhasp when we have a F2F chat.
AndriusKulikauskas: and a list of endeavors related to Creating a World
Without Poverty :: Pamela, I think you have wonderfully embraced our
community and our approach :: and more and more you are availing us of
your instincts :: as in your efforts to end poverty :: and that makes it
wonderful for me to build on your energy and ride it like a wave :: I am
very grateful to you. :: And so you see I have worked to create that page
to give form to your energy :: and we are already building on much we've
done before, including Samwel's research into Watermelons during My Food
I was very happy to be able to help.
As I recall it was £90 and another amount which I think was larger and I
would need to look up in old emails - or perhaps you have it to hand and
could remind me.
I lent you the £90 in April. I think you will remember that I committed
early inteh year to sponsoring you at £30 per month - with regret it is
not more yet - but as a gesture of believing that this would be a good way
for MS to work. I think all kinds of people/organisations who benefit from
MS should sponsor you and those you want to pay. We have had the end of
April and end of May now - so that debt is reduced by 2 X £30 and will be
completely cleared at end of June.
At present I am not in urgent need of repayment of the other debt. If you
like you can repay it now, and then I will restart the £30 sponsorship at
end of July. Or we can look at continuing to reduce the other debt at £30
a month. Which suits you best?
Some time it might be interesting to explore some issues around MS, added
value, working for free, etc. I don't feel I "work for free" at MS - I
study there - and I don't have to pay for the privilege. I meet people and
that is valuable for me for what they teach me and for all the potential
benefits for having a wide network.
I think that you should be enabled to work full-time at directing MS -
without the need to do another day job.I like to think that if I ever
became wealthy I would continue to value MS and would give it more. It
would be just like successful ex-students of traditional universities who
give money back to their universities, to help build libraries or create
scholarships or whatever.
Unfortunately you are not the only person I know who I think should be
able to do the work that is their passion without the need to do a
different day job. It is a continual problem of how we bring the two
together - your problem, my problem, John Dada's problem at Fantsuam, my
friend Elfneh with AHEAD in Ethiopia, others that I know both in and out
The reason that you are the one that I choose to sponsor (in my small way)
is because it seems right. It may only be a gesture, but I feel that "role
playing" is important in working things out. Perhaps, as well as wanting
to support you, I want to try out other aspects of roles. Perhaps I feel
that I want to put some money in because I do not think I am willing to
"work for free" and I do not want you to feel I am exploiting MS. I know I
do not share your clarity about my own personal values, and cannot claim
to have the same ones you have.
I personally benefit from MS. I therefore want it to flourish and I do not
want to take more than I give. I do work of various kinds outside of MS,
and I see that the networks I have within MS can be helpful to me in that.
I encourage contacts from outside MS to join appropriate MS groups - but -
unlike you I function within MS and outside it. Some of my endeavours are
in MS and some are outside.
Where I most overlap with MS is not so much in my values, or my
endeavours, as in my questions. (However, questions do tie in to
experiments and practical investigations - some of the work we do in the
chatroom for instance is part of practical exploration and endeavours -
there is an overlap). Exploring my questions is very much where "I am at
home in MS". The opportunity to investigate questions - to explore ideas
and to think - is what MS gives me. Any learning that we do in LFEO and/or
the chat room is teaching me about aspects of how we do informal learning
using ICT. It is also very helpful to see how you direct MS and nurture
the individual people and groups. To me teh MS experience is not just
about what we discuss and learn, but how it happens.
If this does make sense and you want to share any of it with anyone else
feel free - because I know you prefer public domain to personal emails,
and I try to be accepting of public domain when I am with you as it is
your culture. There are certainly some excellent benefits of public domain
and I admire the way you trail blaze ref public domain in Minciu Sodas,
although it is not something I would choose personally in everything I do.
I don't know if this makes any sense to you. I have been writing it for me
I think - I have not written it carefully to make sure I am understood -
but I must leave it for now.
Pamela, I want to check with you regarding the money that you lent me in
Lithuania which was so helpful. I can return that to you soon if you
like. Or lets please discuss. Thank you so much! Andrius
Remember that I said I would be one of your sponsors, although it would
only be £30 per month.
Hmm - perhaps sponsoring you will become one of DadaMcLean's social
responsibility projects when DadaMc is better established ;-)
Anyhow - we have now come past the end of April, so you only owe me £60
plus LTL 597 - and my cash flow situation is ok at present
2008/4/20 Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>:
I am still waiting for the money to come from Italy, but it should be
soon. Then it will be a couple of weeks more to transfer all of the
money. I calculate that I owe you 90 GBP and 597 LTL (=1290-693) and
the latter is about 140 GBP so that is 230 GBP in all.
All for now!
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