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Re: [holistichelping] Know

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  • lucas.gonzalez@canarias.org
    Sam and all, The linux user group where I m active (on-and-off) here in the Canaries has about 200 recyclable computers and more may be coming; I don t know
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 20, 2006
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      Sam and all,

      The linux user group where I'm active (on-and-off) here in the Canaries has about 200 recyclable computers and more may be coming; I don't know how useable they are. I guess the same happens in other places. I don't know how new-old those computers are, but I know my computer knowledgeable friends are mostly finishing their exams and some will probably be available to help. Help could be in the form of computer and/or know-how. A maths teacher here helped a nun in mainland Spain set up a computer lab at her school - tele-maintenance has continued and all she has to do is replace an old computer every now and then (placing another old computer in its place).

      I'd be happy to help with human networking in this regard. I'm not at all sure old computers can be shipped easily from here; some affectionate reception may be needed on your end, or whatever. I looked for ways to send computers and found nothing directly useful, but might try again.

      I'd bet "abundance shipping" might be somewhat an option to "local reparing", or maybe this is just silly. Franz had comments about this on his blog. We might want to try several things at once in this regard. Resilience.

      I think you want links with Ubuntu in South-Africa. Did you or Henry Migingo finally join the linux user group in Kenya? It's active (I know because I'm still subscribed).

      Lucas
    • Jeff Buderer
      Lucas,. Franz s comments when put together are a cautionary tale for us. Kenya is not Spain for one thing....You dont have a lot of the infrastructure that
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 20, 2006
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        Lucas,.

        Franz's comments when put together are a cautionary tale for us. Kenya
        is not Spain for one thing....You dont have a lot of the infrastructure
        that Spain has in Africa and so maintaining a center becomes a lot more
        challenging.

        There's a whole economy/industry dedicated to used computers. I am not
        going to say I am well acqiainted with this but it is my understanding
        that it is best to ship these in bulk if you are going to do it
        yourself. It does not make sense to ship small quantities of used
        computers or even new ones to Africa. So we are talking really about the
        need to set up a distribution system and so the costs for shipping and
        moving them and if needed refurbishing them and installing software in
        them also need to be considered. Groups like Computer Aid provide the
        computers at relatively low cost.

        In terms of any project to ship 200 computers over there would be
        several things to consider:
        - Project sustainability - You want to make sure the computers are
        properly utilized and go to their desired locations.
        - Network development - With that many computers you would need a whole
        network of centers and so each one need to address the sustainability issue.
        - Ecological sustainability - Should we think of what is going to done
        with this computers when they break and can no longer be used? As more
        computers get sent over the Africa this may become more of an issue.
        - Condition of Computers - Those 200 computers need to be inventoried
        and what about upgrades, repairs and software installs.
        - Shipping details - A portion of a shipping container would need to
        purchased to ship these over and so research needs to be done to find
        the details about this process
        - Project documentation -It would be good to document every step well so
        that others following these steps would not have to reinvent the wheel
        so to speak. Maybe the documentation could be posted onto the wiki.

        So then the key thing - if we would actually decide to move on this -
        would be to sequence this as part of a larger proposal such as the one
        which I discussed with Sam in the other email thread. My view is that I
        would need to see certain sets of information about the specific centers
        these computers would go into and a demonstration of sustainability
        before I would do much work on this proposal. Or that this proposal
        would complement a more generalized and comprehensive funding plan.

        The point is that it does not make a great deal of sense to put a great
        effort to ship a bunch of computers into Kenya until and unless you
        have a concrete program or series of programs to direct the computers
        to. Possibly GRASSUP could form the backbone of this network? Still my
        concern would be that there needs to be computers and cash to properly
        fund these centers and trained staff to maintain and staff them.

        So then Lucas if we can spare some computers why cant we spare some cash
        to make sure they are used properly? A fundraising effort might be a
        great complement to this campaign to collect, process and then ship
        these computers to Africa to fund the centers as well as more
        ambitiously a capacity building program.

        Jeff



        gonzalez@... wrote:

        > Sam and all,
        >
        > The linux user group where I'm active (on-and-off) here in the
        > Canaries has about 200 recyclable computers and more may be coming; I
        > don't know how useable they are. I guess the same happens in other
        > places. I don't know how new-old those computers are, but I know my
        > computer knowledgeable friends are mostly finishing their exams and
        > some will probably be available to help. Help could be in the form of
        > computer and/or know-how. A maths teacher here helped a nun in
        > mainland Spain set up a computer lab at her school - tele-maintenance
        > has continued and all she has to do is replace an old computer every
        > now and then (placing another old computer in its place).
        >
        > I'd be happy to help with human networking in this regard. I'm not at
        > all sure old computers can be shipped easily from here; some
        > affectionate reception may be needed on your end, or whatever. I
        > looked for ways to send computers and found nothing directly useful,
        > but might try again.
        >
        > I'd bet "abundance shipping" might be somewhat an option to "local
        > reparing", or maybe this is just silly. Franz had comments about this
        > on his blog. We might want to try several things at once in this
        > regard. Resilience.
        >
        > I think you want links with Ubuntu in South-Africa. Did you or Henry
        > Migingo finally join the linux user group in Kenya? It's active (I
        > know because I'm still subscribed).
        >
        > Lucas
        >
        >
      • Jeff Buderer
        Lucas,. Franz s comments regarding the project he tried to help (in was it Cameroon?) when put together are a cautionary tale for us. Kenya is not Spain for
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 20, 2006
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          Lucas,.

          Franz's comments regarding the project he tried to help (in was it
          Cameroon?) when put together are a cautionary tale for us. Kenya is not
          Spain for one thing....You dont have a lot of the infrastructure that
          Spain has in Africa and so maintaining a center becomes a lot more
          challenging.

          There's a whole economy/industry dedicated to used computers. I am not
          going to say I am well acqiainted with this but it is my understanding
          that it is best to ship these in bulk if you are going to do it
          yourself. It does not make sense to ship small quantities of used
          computers or even new ones to Africa. So we are talking really about the
          need to set up a distribution system and so the costs for shipping and
          moving them and if needed refurbishing them and installing software in
          them also need to be considered. Groups like Computer Aid provide the
          computers at relatively low cost.

          In terms of any project to ship 200 computers over there would be
          several things to consider:
          - Project sustainability - You want to make sure the computers are
          properly utilized and go to their desired locations.
          - Network development - With that many computers you would need a whole
          network of centers and so each one need to address the sustainability issue.
          - Ecological sustainability - Should we think of what is going to done
          with this computers when they break and can no longer be used? As more
          computers get sent over the Africa this may become more of an issue.
          - Condition of Computers - Those 200 computers need to be inventoried
          and what about upgrades, repairs and software installs.
          - Shipping details - A portion of a shipping container would need to
          purchased to ship these over and so research needs to be done to find
          the details about this process
          - Project documentation -It would be good to document every step well so
          that others following these steps would not have to reinvent the wheel
          so to speak. Maybe the documentation could be posted onto the wiki.

          So then the key thing - if we would actually decide to move on this -
          would be to sequence this as part of a larger proposal such as the one
          which I discussed with Sam in the other email thread. My view is that I
          would need to see certain sets of information about the specific centers
          these computers would go into and a demonstration of sustainability
          before I would do much work on this proposal. Or that this proposal
          would complement a more generalized and comprehensive funding plan.

          The point is that it does not make a great deal of sense to put a great
          effort to ship a bunch of computers into Kenya until and unless you
          have a concrete program or series of programs to direct the computers
          to. Possibly GRASSUP could form the backbone of this network? Still my
          concern would be that there needs to be computers and cash to properly
          fund these centers and trained staff to maintain and staff them.

          So then Lucas if we can spare some computers why cant we spare some cash
          to make sure they are used properly? A fundraising effort might be a
          great complement to this campaign to collect, process and then ship
          these computers to Africa to fund the centers as well as more
          ambitiously a capacity building program.

          Jeff



          gonzalez@... wrote:

          > Sam and all,
          >
          > The linux user group where I'm active (on-and-off) here in the
          > Canaries has about 200 recyclable computers and more may be coming; I
          > don't know how useable they are. I guess the same happens in other
          > places. I don't know how new-old those computers are, but I know my
          > computer knowledgeable friends are mostly finishing their exams and
          > some will probably be available to help. Help could be in the form of
          > computer and/or know-how. A maths teacher here helped a nun in
          > mainland Spain set up a computer lab at her school - tele-maintenance
          > has continued and all she has to do is replace an old computer every
          > now and then (placing another old computer in its place).
          >
          > I'd be happy to help with human networking in this regard. I'm not at
          > all sure old computers can be shipped easily from here; some
          > affectionate reception may be needed on your end, or whatever. I
          > looked for ways to send computers and found nothing directly useful,
          > but might try again.
          >
          > I'd bet "abundance shipping" might be somewhat an option to "local
          > reparing", or maybe this is just silly. Franz had comments about this
          > on his blog. We might want to try several things at once in this
          > regard. Resilience.
          >
          > I think you want links with Ubuntu in South-Africa. Did you or Henry
          > Migingo finally join the linux user group in Kenya? It's active (I
          > know because I'm still subscribed).
          >
          > Lucas
          >
          >
        • lucas.gonzalez@canarias.org
          Jeff and all, It looks like the plot thickens; i.e., we need to take many factors into consideration, and we re doing just that. Now I see why you want to
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 20, 2006
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            Jeff and all,

            It looks like the plot thickens; i.e., we need to take many factors into consideration, and we're doing just that.

            Now I see why you want to document the process on wikipages, create the big picture with all the details before moving too fast, and outreaching to others who are good at specific things (e.g. moving computers around). Please consider Linux User Groups (and probably ours specifically) as a probable asset in this regard, as a source of "refurbished oldish computers with a mission". You're on your way to providing a clear picture of "the mission". We need to get in touch with people good at moving computers around, and some fund-raising. Yes, it does start to look like a wikipage. A bit like one of those "I'll pay if you pay" pledges, in the making.

            I can help with our local LUG, if that's seen to be helpful. As I said, my geek friends are finishing their exams and soon we'll be able to know how many computers, how old, how useful, etc. And, if I may insist, there's a LUG in Kenya:
            * http://www.linux.org/groups/kenya.html
            * http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=kenya+linux&submit=Search (4 groups)
            * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kenyalinux/ (the one I'm subscribed at, 222 members)

            Lucas

            ----- Mensaje original -----
            De: Jeff Buderer <jeff@...>
            Fecha: Martes, Junio 20, 2006 1:49 pm
            Asunto: Re: [holistichelping] Know
            A: holistichelping@yahoogroups.com

            > Lucas,.
            >
            > Franz's comments when put together are a cautionary tale for us.
            > Kenya
            > is not Spain for one thing....You dont have a lot of the
            > infrastructure
            > that Spain has in Africa and so maintaining a center becomes a
            > lot more
            > challenging.
            >
            > There's a whole economy/industry dedicated to used computers. I
            > am not
            > going to say I am well acqiainted with this but it is my
            > understanding
            > that it is best to ship these in bulk if you are going to do it
            > yourself. It does not make sense to ship small quantities of
            > used
            > computers or even new ones to Africa. So we are talking really
            > about the
            > need to set up a distribution system and so the costs for
            > shipping and
            > moving them and if needed refurbishing them and installing
            > software in
            > them also need to be considered. Groups like Computer Aid
            > provide the
            > computers at relatively low cost.
            >
            > In terms of any project to ship 200 computers over there would
            > be
            > several things to consider:
            > - Project sustainability - You want to make sure the computers
            > are
            > properly utilized and go to their desired locations.
            > - Network development - With that many computers you would need
            > a whole
            > network of centers and so each one need to address the
            > sustainability issue.
            > - Ecological sustainability - Should we think of what is going
            > to done
            > with this computers when they break and can no longer be used?
            > As more
            > computers get sent over the Africa this may become more of an issue.
            > - Condition of Computers - Those 200 computers need to be
            > inventoried
            > and what about upgrades, repairs and software installs.
            > - Shipping details - A portion of a shipping container would
            > need to
            > purchased to ship these over and so research needs to be done to
            > find
            > the details about this process
            > - Project documentation -It would be good to document every step
            > well so
            > that others following these steps would not have to reinvent the
            > wheel
            > so to speak. Maybe the documentation could be posted onto the wiki.
            >
            > So then the key thing - if we would actually decide to move on
            > this -
            > would be to sequence this as part of a larger proposal such as
            > the one
            > which I discussed with Sam in the other email thread. My view is
            > that I
            > would need to see certain sets of information about the specific
            > centers
            > these computers would go into and a demonstration of
            > sustainability
            > before I would do much work on this proposal. Or that this
            > proposal
            > would complement a more generalized and comprehensive funding
            > plan.
            >
            > The point is that it does not make a great deal of sense
            > to put a great
            > effort to ship a bunch of computers into Kenya until and
            > unless you
            > have a concrete program or series of programs to direct
            > the computers
            > to. Possibly GRASSUP could form the backbone of this network?
            > Still my
            > concern would be that there needs to be computers and cash to
            > properly
            > fund these centers and trained staff to maintain and staff them.
            >
            > So then Lucas if we can spare some computers why cant we spare
            > some cash
            > to make sure they are used properly? A fundraising effort might
            > be a
            > great complement to this campaign to collect, process and then
            > ship
            > these computers to Africa to fund the centers as well as more
            > ambitiously a capacity building program.
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            >
            >
            > gonzalez@... wrote:
            >
            > > Sam and all,
            > >
            > > The linux user group where I'm active (on-and-off) here in the
            > > Canaries has about 200 recyclable computers and more may be
            > coming; I
            > > don't know how useable they are. I guess the same happens in
            > other
            > > places. I don't know how new-old those computers are, but I
            > know my
            > > computer knowledgeable friends are mostly finishing their
            > exams and
            > > some will probably be available to help. Help could be in the
            > form of
            > > computer and/or know-how. A maths teacher here helped a nun in
            > > mainland Spain set up a computer lab at her school - tele-
            > maintenance
            > > has continued and all she has to do is replace an old computer
            > every
            > > now and then (placing another old computer in its place).
            > >
            > > I'd be happy to help with human networking in this regard. I'm
            > not at
            > > all sure old computers can be shipped easily from here; some
            > > affectionate reception may be needed on your end, or whatever.
            > I
            > > looked for ways to send computers and found nothing directly
            > useful,
            > > but might try again.
            > >
            > > I'd bet "abundance shipping" might be somewhat an option to
            > "local
            > > reparing", or maybe this is just silly. Franz had comments
            > about this
            > > on his blog. We might want to try several things at once in
            > this
            > > regard. Resilience.
            > >
            > > I think you want links with Ubuntu in South-Africa. Did you or
            > Henry
            > > Migingo finally join the linux user group in Kenya? It's
            > active (I
            > > know because I'm still subscribed).
            > >
            > > Lucas
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
          • samuel kongere
            Dear Jeff, Lucas, Andrius, Janet and All, I presume we are doing the right job for mbita and wish to join the global limelight concerning information and
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 25, 2006
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              Dear Jeff, Lucas, Andrius, Janet and All,
               
              I presume we are doing the right job for mbita and wish to join the global limelight concerning information and technology. We are very much impressed with the different comments the people in our lab are taking to see that a combined effort is put to have Mbita in the global limelight and this is very suitable for marketing and hence community development as a whole.
               
              We are working together with Ken to see things are in place for the proposals made. Our hope as always is to see that we become the next global village with the ICT service deemed for international development, it is an excellent conference to see people wonder on how to help the less previleged in the globe. It was exciting and very interesting. The good thing about it, was that all the pieces  of mind were there to bring thinking together in  technology unity development, the packed programme, the people from all over. It built a sense of community that has not happened before. We really treasure the thoughts brought in by Lucas and we are looking forward to see the thought come true when we indulge in global sharing.
               
              Somebody tells me Africa information revolution is wireless and this tells me that Local social information network has no boundary and this is why when people give information and hope to compare development is good in our lab. The question is, are we able to get funds to finalise our dream in Mbita? Or are we on the oughing that things are talked and never reach compromises? Think loud as we are independent thinkers. Is there anybody against the wish of many? We better concentrate and do one project and ride on to see the sense of the forum discussion.
               
              Helmut
               
               I wish you will come clear I am preparing the mail for the project we are running together with you and Andrius. Be specific as the base line survey is near completion and your proWiki version in English should be received to make me have the full details. I am always thinking loud and this is what makes the man ou of me.
               
              Andrius
               
              I am very much happy to receive your short notes and i am much hoping to succeed, I am about to be through with the drawing of the map and you know much of my efforts are lost when I walk 10 km to write reports, I just wanted a bit more value to help me have portable laptop which can be used anywhere when work is on, I will contact you for away out.
               
              Janet
               
              I am through with the form and sent it to Caroline, I am still waiting to get her reply for the completed form. We are going to work with Ken In Grass up Now, I wanted to meet James and Francis when they came to Mbita, we missed one another, haha! I wanted to know if I can help you as one of your secretaries doing something as Andrius had suggested for me. I not very committed now that i am doing part time work for CCF here. There is also good news that electricity is now here and having computers here is paramount and destined to succeed may be putting the said project in the proposal  to be in Phases, we can divide the Idea in phases as you suggested.
               
              Jeff
               
              I believe by now you have received my proposal copy from Janet but I can still send it accross to you today I hope you get it and Advice for implementation. When I was writing it, we never had power but now there is electricity and putting the project here is well felt.
               
              Thanks to all willing to see that we succeed in the Idea of Eco Village learning center.
               
              From
              Samwel


              lucas.gonzalez@... wrote:
              Jeff and all,

              It looks like the plot thickens; i.e., we need to take many factors into consideration, and we're doing just that.

              Now I see why you want to document the process on wikipages, create the big picture with all the details before moving too fast, and outreaching to others who are good at specific things (e.g. moving computers around). Please consider Linux User Groups (and probably ours specifically) as a probable asset in this regard, as a source of "refurbished oldish computers with a mission". You're on your way to providing a clear picture of "the mission". We need to get in touch with people good at moving computers around, and some fund-raising. Yes, it does start to look like a wikipage. A bit like one of those "I'll pay if you pay" pledges, in the making.

              I can help with our local LUG, if that's seen to be helpful. As I said, my geek friends are finishing their exams and soon we'll be able to know how many computers, how old, how useful, etc. And, if I may insist, there's a LUG in Kenya:
              * http://www.linux. org/groups/ kenya.html
              * http://groups. yahoo.com/ search?query= kenya+linux& submit=Search (4 groups)
              * http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/kenyalinux / (the one I'm subscribed at, 222 members)

              Lucas

              ----- Mensaje original -----
              De: Jeff Buderer <jeff@onevillagefoun dation.org>
              Fecha: Martes, Junio 20, 2006 1:49 pm
              Asunto: Re: [holistichelping] Know
              A: holistichelping@ yahoogroups. com

              > Lucas,.
              >
              > Franz's comments when put together are a cautionary tale for us.
              > Kenya
              > is not Spain for one thing....You dont have a lot of the
              > infrastructure
              > that Spain has in Africa and so maintaining a center becomes a
              > lot more
              > challenging.
              >
              > There's a whole economy/industry dedicated to used computers. I
              > am not
              > going to say I am well acqiainted with this but it is my
              > understanding
              > that it is best to ship these in bulk if you are going to do it
              > yourself. It does not make sense to ship small quantities of
              > used
              > computers or even new ones to Africa. So we are talking really
              > about the
              > need to set up a distribution system and so the costs for
              > shipping and
              > moving them and if needed refurbishing them and installing
              > software in
              > them also need to be considered. Groups like Computer Aid
              > provide the
              > computers at relatively low cost.
              >
              > In terms of any project to ship 200 computers over there would
              > be
              > several things to consider:
              > - Project sustainability - You want to make sure the computers
              > are
              > properly utilized and go to their desired locations.
              > - Network development - With that many computers you would need
              > a whole
              > network of centers and so each one need to address the
              > sustainability issue.
              > - Ecological sustainability - Should we think of what is going
              > to done
              > with this computers when they break and can no longer be used?
              > As more
              > computers get sent over the Africa this may become more of an issue.
              > - Condition of Computers - Those 200 computers need to be
              > inventoried
              > and what about upgrades, repairs and software installs.
              > - Shipping details - A portion of a shipping container would
              > need to
              > purchased to ship these over and so research needs to be done to
              > find
              > the details about this process
              > - Project documentation -It would be good to document every step
              > well so
              > that others following these steps would not have to reinvent the
              > wheel
              > so to speak. Maybe the documentation could be posted onto the wiki.
              >
              > So then the key thing - if we would actually decide to move on
              > this -
              > would be to sequence this as part of a larger proposal such as
              > the one
              > which I discussed with Sam in the other email thread. My view is
              > that I
              > would need to see certain sets of information about the specific
              > centers
              > these computers would go into and a demonstration of
              > sustainability
              > before I would do much work on this proposal. Or that this
              > proposal
              > would complement a more generalized and comprehensive funding
              > plan.
              >
              > The point is that it does not make a great deal of sense
              > to put a great
              > effort to ship a bunch of computers into Kenya until and
              > unless you
              > have a concrete program or series of programs to direct
              > the computers
              > to. Possibly GRASSUP could form the backbone of this network?
              > Still my
              > concern would be that there needs to be computers and cash to
              > properly
              > fund these centers and trained staff to maintain and staff them.
              >
              > So then Lucas if we can spare some computers why cant we spare
              > some cash
              > to make sure they are used properly? A fundraising effort might
              > be a
              > great complement to this campaign to collect, process and then
              > ship
              > these computers to Africa to fund the centers as well as more
              > ambitiously a capacity building program.
              >
              > Jeff
              >
              >
              >
              > gonzalez@canarias. org wrote:
              >
              > > Sam and all,
              > >
              > > The linux user group where I'm active (on-and-off) here in the
              > > Canaries has about 200 recyclable computers and more may be
              > coming; I
              > > don't know how useable they are. I guess the same happens in
              > other
              > > places. I don't know how new-old those computers are, but I
              > know my
              > > computer knowledgeable friends are mostly finishing their
              > exams and
              > > some will probably be available to help. Help could be in the
              > form of
              > > computer and/or know-how. A maths teacher here helped a nun in
              > > mainland Spain set up a computer lab at her school - tele-
              > maintenance
              > > has continued and all she has to do is replace an old computer
              > every
              > > now and then (placing another old computer in its place).
              > >
              > > I'd be happy to help with human networking in this regard. I'm
              > not at
              > > all sure old computers can be shipped easily from here; some
              > > affectionate reception may be needed on your end, or whatever.
              > I
              > > looked for ways to send computers and found nothing directly
              > useful,
              > > but might try again.
              > >
              > > I'd bet "abundance shipping" might be somewhat an option to
              > "local
              > > reparing", or maybe this is just silly. Franz had comments
              > about this
              > > on his blog. We might want to try several things at once in
              > this
              > > regard. Resilience.
              > >
              > > I think you want links with Ubuntu in South-Africa. Did you or
              > Henry
              > > Migingo finally join the linux user group in Kenya? It's
              > active (I
              > > know because I'm still subscribed).
              > >
              > > Lucas
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              Samwel Okech kongere
              Nyamuga primary school
              P.O BOX 191,
              MBITA  040305-KENYA.
              Cell: +254 725 600 439
              Computer specielist
              Community Development
              UDOGO youth development group-coordinator
               


              Yahoo! Groups gets better. Check out the new email design. Plus there’s much more to come.

            • Jeff Buderer
              Masimba, Thought the links below might be of interest to you: Changemakers.org is now accepting applications for a contest on low cost housing
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Masimba,

                Thought the links below might be of interest to you:

                Changemakers.org is now accepting applications for a contest on low cost
                housing http://www.changemakers.net/journal/300606/

                Paul Cohen <http://www.ashoka.org/fellows/viewprofile3.cfm?reid=97498>
                an Ashoka fellow has been pioneering low cost building technologies in
                South Africa.

                Keep in touch.

                Jeff Buderer
                oneVillage Foundation



                > Dear Andrius,
                >
                > In reference to the discussion below, I just want to
                > find out whwther Nikos Salingaros will be interested
                > in doing some write up on Zimbabwe.
                >
                > We have interesting (weell sad) developments over the
                > past two years with regards housing for the poor.
                >
                > Government, last year, demolished all the shanties in
                > the urban areas of Zimbabwe, leaving over 700,000
                > people homeless. The argument of government was that
                > it wanted to make housing livable for the poor.
                >
                > Now, they are in the process of constructing low-cost
                > housing for the poor.
                >
                > The level of the destruction of shanties is
                > incidentally the biggest in the world.
                >
                > If Nikos is interested on more information, I need to
                > know what exactly he is looking for, otherwise
                > Zimbabwe makes an interesting case in this respect.
                >
                > Thank You
                >
                > God Bless
                >
                > Masimba Biriwasha
                >
                > > Andrius: Another topic to work on is helping Nikos
                > Salingaros,> he is writing a paper on how to make
                > social housing livable.
                > >
                > > Samwel: i had such information in my interview
                > >
                > > Andrius: Yes, very good. :: Do you have housing for
                > the
                > > poor in Kenya?
                > >
                > > Samwel: Ihave seen such
                > >
                > > Andrius: One thing to study is how poor people live
                > in slums
                > > and in state housing.
                >
                > I have a strong feeling that every person owes it to him/herself, and
                to the cause which he is serving to keep their body strong and healthy,
                for better or worse, for disappointments and for trying positions.
                >
                > __________________________________________________
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