Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup

Expand Messages
  • MoreyH
    I ve always had a soft spot for the Bruins thanks to the 70s. When you grow up in Detroit in that era, it was nice to watch a real team. But this goes beyond
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I've always had a soft spot for the Bruins thanks to the 70s. When you grow up in Detroit in that era, it was nice to watch a real team.

      But this goes beyond questionable calls; there is an out-and-out bias. The sad part is that the way Tim Thomas played, the Bruins really didn't need any help.

      But you look at Campbellgate in November (an abuse of power being defended as a Hockey Dad's concerns); the Chara hit (by the way, I suspect that if Gregory Campbell was not a throw-in on the Nathan Horton deal AND Campbell did a better job winning the faceoff that Pacioretty beat Chara to AND the decision to suspend Chara went up the chain of command to a superior instead of to an inferior as what usually happens when someone recuses themselves; the Rome hit; AND the two top officials of the NHL are attorneys by trade who should have had all of this as basic fundamentals in law school, well shoot, Gregory Campbell is now worth Sidney Crosby-type money, if winning means something to you.

      I know Brendan Shanahan is not going to change things. I suspect you will see Shanahan resign before you see any real change. Colin Campbell will probably send him an email the fist time his son gets suspended. Wasn't Eric Lindros booted out of Philadelphia for his non-NHL VP dad doing the same thing?

      The real problem with organizations that are as close-knit as the NHL and the Hockey World is that abuse reigns supreme in lieu of integrity. Can't offend one's friends now, can we?

      Morey

      --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, arthur chidlovski <arch4web@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Morey:
      >
      > When I compared the KHL to the WWE I didn't mean the fixed games or questionable calls by the officials. I meant that when the elite league is holding a draft and pick # 1 poorly skates but happen to be a sone of a friend of a Prime Minister and in the interview says that his dream is to play in the NHL, it all reminds staged WWE championships or some surrealistic comedy.
      >
      > What you are talking about is to me more like a questionable decision by the league. I don't think that Vancouver played so heartless and unrecognizably gutless in the finals because they got an offer they couldn't refuse. I am a Bostonian but I would probably agree with you that Rome's suspension was overboard.
      >
      > On the other hand conduct your experiment on watching Chara vs. Pacioretty and Rome vs. Horton with 5 people from Boston or 5 people from Vancouver or 5 people from Montreal, you will get different results. Yes, hockey is a physical game and things happen and there were controversial decisions made by the officials over decades. Still I don't think there is a WWEsque going on in the NHL. Of course, they do change the rules left and right to make the game more appealing to the audience but it's far from making a show from a game.
      >
      > Just my opinion,
      >
      >
      > ____ Arthur Chidlovski ____
      > http://www.chidlovski.com/
      >
      >
      > --- On Thu, 6/30/11, MoreyH <epenaltybox@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>
      > > Subject: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup
      > > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Thursday, June 30, 2011, 5:41 PM
      > > Hi Arthur,
      > >
      > > I'm curious of your statement.  How so?  I though
      > > the NHL has done a pretty good job of imitating the
      > > WWE.  I'm not quite ready to say this year's Stanley
      > > Cup was fixed as I'm still gathering my evidence, but I'm
      > > getting closer.
      > >
      > > For a hint:
      > >
      > > Find a non-hockey or moderate hockey fan and ask them
      > > this:
      > > What should the suspension be for this:
      > >
      > > 1.  Then roll the Chara hit on Pacioretty
      > > 2.  Then show the Rome hit on Horton
      > >
      > > If you find one person who says the Rome hit was
      > > dirtier/more wrong, I would certainly like to interview
      > > him/her.
      > >
      > > I've tested this on 5 people, even rotating the order of
      > > the hits, and all of them state the Chara hit was much
      > > worse.
      > >
      > > Morey
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com,
      > > arthur chidlovski <arch4web@> wrote:
      > > > NHL has no interest in this rivalry and the KHL looks
      > > so far more like WWE wrestling (is it a sport, anyway?),
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
      > > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >     hockhist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • DAVE SOUTTER
      The NHL is the Old Boy s Club if there ever was one. Now if Toronto can win a Cup anytime soon, all of the Orginal Six would have Cups the past 20 years
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        The NHL is the Old Boy's Club if there ever was one. Now if Toronto can win a Cup anytime soon, all of the Orginal Six would have Cups the past 20 years (give or take), but I'm not holding my breath. That is, unless Boston trades Gregory Campbell to the Maple Leafs, given his apparent value in the market. ;) Nothing against the Bruins--I was a Boston fan way back whenOrr flew over Noel Picard's hook. But it seems the Canucks gothosed, just a little. Bill: What is your take on this? --Dave Soutter
        To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
        From: epenaltybox@...
        Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 16:34:56 +0000
        Subject: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup




























        I've always had a soft spot for the Bruins thanks to the 70s. When you grow up in Detroit in that era, it was nice to watch a real team.



        But this goes beyond questionable calls; there is an out-and-out bias. The sad part is that the way Tim Thomas played, the Bruins really didn't need any help.



        But you look at Campbellgate in November (an abuse of power being defended as a Hockey Dad's concerns); the Chara hit (by the way, I suspect that if Gregory Campbell was not a throw-in on the Nathan Horton deal AND Campbell did a better job winning the faceoff that Pacioretty beat Chara to AND the decision to suspend Chara went up the chain of command to a superior instead of to an inferior as what usually happens when someone recuses themselves; the Rome hit; AND the two top officials of the NHL are attorneys by trade who should have had all of this as basic fundamentals in law school, well shoot, Gregory Campbell is now worth Sidney Crosby-type money, if winning means something to you.



        I know Brendan Shanahan is not going to change things. I suspect you will see Shanahan resign before you see any real change. Colin Campbell will probably send him an email the fist time his son gets suspended. Wasn't Eric Lindros booted out of Philadelphia for his non-NHL VP dad doing the same thing?



        The real problem with organizations that are as close-knit as the NHL and the Hockey World is that abuse reigns supreme in lieu of integrity. Can't offend one's friends now, can we?



        Morey



        --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, arthur chidlovski <arch4web@...> wrote:

        >

        > Hi Morey:

        >

        > When I compared the KHL to the WWE I didn't mean the fixed games or questionable calls by the officials. I meant that when the elite league is holding a draft and pick # 1 poorly skates but happen to be a sone of a friend of a Prime Minister and in the interview says that his dream is to play in the NHL, it all reminds staged WWE championships or some surrealistic comedy.

        >

        > What you are talking about is to me more like a questionable decision by the league. I don't think that Vancouver played so heartless and unrecognizably gutless in the finals because they got an offer they couldn't refuse. I am a Bostonian but I would probably agree with you that Rome's suspension was overboard.

        >

        > On the other hand conduct your experiment on watching Chara vs. Pacioretty and Rome vs. Horton with 5 people from Boston or 5 people from Vancouver or 5 people from Montreal, you will get different results. Yes, hockey is a physical game and things happen and there were controversial decisions made by the officials over decades. Still I don't think there is a WWEsque going on in the NHL. Of course, they do change the rules left and right to make the game more appealing to the audience but it's far from making a show from a game.

        >

        > Just my opinion,

        >

        >

        > ____ Arthur Chidlovski ____

        > http://www.chidlovski.com/

        >

        >

        > --- On Thu, 6/30/11, MoreyH <epenaltybox@...> wrote:

        >

        > > From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>

        > > Subject: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup

        > > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com

        > > Date: Thursday, June 30, 2011, 5:41 PM

        > > Hi Arthur,

        > >

        > > I'm curious of your statement. How so? I though

        > > the NHL has done a pretty good job of imitating the

        > > WWE. I'm not quite ready to say this year's Stanley

        > > Cup was fixed as I'm still gathering my evidence, but I'm

        > > getting closer.

        > >

        > > For a hint:

        > >

        > > Find a non-hockey or moderate hockey fan and ask them

        > > this:

        > > What should the suspension be for this:

        > >

        > > 1. Then roll the Chara hit on Pacioretty

        > > 2. Then show the Rome hit on Horton

        > >

        > > If you find one person who says the Rome hit was

        > > dirtier/more wrong, I would certainly like to interview

        > > him/her.

        > >

        > > I've tested this on 5 people, even rotating the order of

        > > the hits, and all of them state the Chara hit was much

        > > worse.

        > >

        > > Morey

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com,

        > > arthur chidlovski <arch4web@> wrote:

        > > > NHL has no interest in this rivalry and the KHL looks

        > > so far more like WWE wrestling (is it a sport, anyway?),

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > >

        > > ------------------------------------

        > >

        > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to

        > > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        > > Yahoo! Groups Links

        > >

        > >

        > > hockhist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

        > >

        > >

        > >

        >


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lloyd Davis
        Won t happen. Campbell was born in southern Ontario. Now, if he d been born in Detroit, where Coley was playing at the time, Burke might ve been interested.
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Won't happen. Campbell was born in southern Ontario.

          Now, if he'd been born in Detroit, where Coley was playing at the
          time, Burke might've been interested.

          (To listen to 'em around here, you'd think we were witnessing the
          return of the Chicago All-Americans.)




          On 1-Jul-11, at 1:44 PM, DAVE SOUTTER wrote:

          > That is, unless Boston trades Gregory Campbell to the Maple Leafs,
          > given his apparent value in the market.
        • arthur chidlovski
          It is certainly a possible scenario... Unfortunately. As for me, I am mostly getting a kick of their usage of emails. Every time they do something that is not
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            It is certainly a possible scenario... Unfortunately.

            As for me, I am mostly getting a kick of their usage of emails. Every time they do something that is not supposed to be publicly known they send emails. I would imagine itcan be done by some VP wannabe on the NHL playstation but not in the good ol' boys club of NHL. Maybe it's time for them to start posting their intentions in the Yahoo forums :-)

            Arthur
          • William Underwood
            I don t think that any fix was in.there were a ZILLION reasons why Vancouver lost this series than losing Rome. Since when has he been such a great Norris
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I don't think that any "fix" was in.there were a ZILLION reasons why
              Vancouver lost this series than losing Rome. Since when has he been such a
              great Norris Trophy contender? He isn't.he is a COLLATERAL defenceman that
              ANY team in the NHL can live with or without. Losing Hamhuis to INJURY cost
              the Canucks FAR more as did the Sedin's allergic reaction to contact, once
              though of as being controlled, acting up again.which actually happened also
              when Weber and Suter were also "mean to them". Not to mention n when Roberto
              Luongo suddenly got a case of I don't really know what and before we stat
              thinking " Eddie Ciccote in the Black Sox payoff", he showed TRHE SAME
              symptoms of it in earlier series. an almost Marc Andre Fleury like ability
              to forget he was a star goalie. Then we get to Mr. Kessler just being
              banged up form contact both initiated by others and himself over several
              series wearing him down. In the end it was a case that the Canucks still
              lack one BIG thing.Killer Instinct. They showed it TIME and TIME again
              before the finals. One reporter put it best, the BRUINS were more like
              Canada's team in this series not only by the preponderance of Canadian
              players but even the guys whoa re not Canadian PLAYED like Canadians.with
              drive, aggression, urgency and passion wh9icha re all trademarks of Canadian
              hockey that even we Americans find a culture shock when we get up there.



              If anything the NHL is like any publicity minded organization. The Rome hit
              happened IN THE FINALS! EVERRYONE was watching as opposed to a regular
              season game. The Chara hit was not one that even casual fans saw, the Rome
              hit was. Add on they had "bite gate" which I STILL think the press played up
              WAY TOO much. If anything they caved into public pressure which is the SAME
              with any sports league, TV network or even politician. If it is something
              that gets more regional attention and is less damaging you don't react or
              give a limited reaction to it, if it is something that gets attention, well
              THAT is another matter. It can even come down to "who done it"..as
              appearances are EVERYTHING. A star player does a cheap shot odds are he will
              get more of a pass than if a "goon" does it. Again, human nature, one guy
              does it we have a"moment out of character" if the other does it "we have a
              loose cannon out of control." But then again even the LEGAL system does
              that.a rich white kid from the burbs does the same crime a poor black kid
              form a one parent home does, he gets probation, the black kid gets time.even
              for a more serious crime.one will get a bit of time in some soft core rehab
              center then his records are sealed and he is off to college, other is in the
              slammer and branded for life.one is seen as a "youthful indiscretion" the
              other is seen as the "next serial killer in the making" even though many
              truly sick killers have been white middle or even upper class.It was no
              "fix" Morey bit was HUMAN nature. Remember the NHL would have gotten a lot
              out of CANADA winning a Cup.in Canada they would be ecstatic and they could
              play up a win it back theme in the next year though few would care.



              The differences are classic.Chara is a star Pacioretty is not, Rome is not a
              star and Horton was.Chara is a Norris Trophy guy, an upstanding citizen.Rome
              is none of those dime a dozen physical lower end d men that in the NHL's
              eyes is more a "loose cannon". Chara only created furor in Quebec and to a
              degree Canada but I say to a degree.did Leaf fans REALLY care? The Rome hit
              was in the FINALS where we have Mike Emerick crafting his inane flowery
              poetry/prose to a "fallen hero" (sorry but sometimes Doc gets to me and
              justifies having a "mute" button.the sad thing is he CAN be a great play by
              play guy when he just sticks to it) we have McGuire, Milbury and Olczyk go
              to it the minute they run out of anything else to say or want to get the
              show moving again and in Canada we have the SAME relays and rehash etc.
              Remember what I always told my sports marketing class "sports are
              entertainment at the commercial level" and the media takes it to another
              degree. They want a TV show and DRAMA. They were fearing a short series so
              what do you do, fan the flames. Now I am no so sure that they to do that for
              the Bruins, those guys were fired up by the event itself but the AUDIENCE
              needed firing up. So stir the pot "you didn't just see a hockey game you saw
              a CRIME.tune in tomorrow you may see more." and a big fat juicy CRIME gets
              folks stirred up. But in turn that creates a backfire, a dilemma that
              eventually they can turn into a scenario to create for fans in Vancouver to
              feel indignant over and Bruin fans to respond to that anger. The league HAD
              to act as it made them LOOK bad if they didn't a guy was seriously hurt on
              their biggest stage.there was no real way to make the casual fan understand
              no suspension. Add on in Canada in an odd way the Chara hit MADE this
              happen. So many folks DID say "why no suspension"? Could they get away with
              it twice even regionally?



              No black Sox just human nature in a an era where the media can and does as a
              matter of their credo "news is entertainment" (after all we spent how much
              time in the juvenile activity of having hours upon hours of coverage of a
              naughty Congressman who was a bit of a perv.not a really illegal one mind
              you. who happened to be named Weiner.all we were missing was Bevis and
              Butthead laughing "and the dude's name is "Weiner"), a war is on in Libya
              and we are sitting here spending hours waiting of seeing debates about "if I
              show you mine will you show me more" is terrible. the guy will probably
              become the resident "sleaze expert" for some network analyst someday."now
              tell us as a veteran of exposing yourself, what is going through your mind
              at this moment."News is not news, it is ratings so a hockey series is less
              ratings than a guy getting hurt on TV. They muck rake even when there is to
              muck to rake.. The media drives this stuff and not to do any good except for
              their OWN ratings. You want the WWE go to your media outlets THEY are more
              like Vince McMahon than any sports league out there.we live in a an era of
              Yellow Journalism that is arguably worse than the original only with live
              picture where the angles and speed can be used to make anything look as bad
              as possible and a Mike Emerick to work it to dramatic prose and a bevy of
              experts to say "now see how terrible this really was." One can say the same
              happened with Chara but you miss the point, if an actor moons the audience
              in Ponoka it is just indecent exposure, if he foes it on Broadway it is a
              major story and new laws are written about decency on stage, Congressional
              hearings are held on "public amorality and moral decline" etc.Chara was
              lucky enough to not only be the party that is not seen as a loose cannon but
              he did it on a smaller stage. Sports are a microcosm of society, not always
              fair but also less a matter of corruption more a matter of human nature
              which in the public eye is media driven. Sure the Chara thing got attention
              but not the UNIVERSAL attention of the Rome hit and it happened at a time
              where there was other hockey news worldwide and the casual fan was more or
              less blissfully ignorant.as opposed to Rome when all lights were on him. .



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • MoreyH
              No arguement with anything you wrote Bill - it probably summed it up very accurately. Just one rhetorical question for all of us: How well do you think we
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                No arguement with anything you wrote Bill - it probably summed it up very accurately.

                Just one rhetorical question for all of us: How well do you think we govern justice and are you happy with it?

                Because if you answer yes, then Bill's answer is why, and the interpreted result of the masses becomes one of apathy.

                If you answer no, then the interpreted result by the masses is one of protest.

                Morey
              • DAVE SOUTTER
                Justice in the NHL? Do you believe there really is such a thing? When a player purposely jumps another player from behind, lands violently on top of him,
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Justice in the NHL?

                  Do you believe there really is such a thing?

                  When a player purposely jumps another player from behind, lands violently on top of him, breaking his neck and thus ending his career, yet the aggressor is only suspended a handful of games...do you really believe any form of justice was served?

                  Justice exists to protect " little guys" from big boy abuse. Such a concept does not exist in the NHL.

                  I'll never forget when Barry Cummins of the California Seals was pummelled, hacked, speared, and left beaten and bloodied like a rented mule by several Flyers because Cummins' stick had clipped Bobby Clarke in the forehead, opening a cut that required six stitches.

                  The NHL did nothing to the Flyers players who unmercifully beat Cummins. The beating shook Cummins to the core and he was never the same player again.

                  Justice in the NHL? What does that mean?

                  --Dave Soutter


                  Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>
                  Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 18:34:56
                  To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup

                   



                  No arguement with anything you wrote Bill - it probably summed it up very accurately.

                  Just one rhetorical question for all of us: How well do you think we govern justice and are you happy with it?

                  Because if you answer yes, then Bill's answer is why, and the interpreted result of the masses becomes one of apathy.

                  If you answer no, then the interpreted result by the masses is one of protest.

                  Morey
                • Craig Wallace
                  Hear hear....... ... From: DAVE SOUTTER To: MoreyH ; Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hear hear.......
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "DAVE SOUTTER " <dsoutter@...>
                    To: "MoreyH " <epenaltybox@...>; <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 3:33 PM
                    Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup


                    Justice in the NHL?

                    Do you believe there really is such a thing?

                    When a player purposely jumps another player from behind, lands violently on
                    top of him, breaking his neck and thus ending his career, yet the aggressor
                    is only suspended a handful of games...do you really believe any form of
                    justice was served?

                    Justice exists to protect " little guys" from big boy abuse. Such a concept
                    does not exist in the NHL.

                    I'll never forget when Barry Cummins of the California Seals was pummelled,
                    hacked, speared, and left beaten and bloodied like a rented mule by several
                    Flyers because Cummins' stick had clipped Bobby Clarke in the forehead,
                    opening a cut that required six stitches.

                    The NHL did nothing to the Flyers players who unmercifully beat Cummins. The
                    beating shook Cummins to the core and he was never the same player again.

                    Justice in the NHL? What does that mean?

                    --Dave Soutter


                    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>
                    Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 18:34:56
                    To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup





                    No arguement with anything you wrote Bill - it probably summed it up very
                    accurately.

                    Just one rhetorical question for all of us: How well do you think we govern
                    justice and are you happy with it?

                    Because if you answer yes, then Bill's answer is why, and the interpreted
                    result of the masses becomes one of apathy.

                    If you answer no, then the interpreted result by the masses is one of
                    protest.

                    Morey





                    ------------------------------------

                    To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                    hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • MoreyH
                    If it doesn t change, eventually people will start to lose interest. And by then, it will be too late.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 3, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      If it doesn't change, eventually people will start to lose interest. And by then, it will be too late.

                      --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Wallace" <craigw@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hear hear.......
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "DAVE SOUTTER " <dsoutter@...>
                      > To: "MoreyH " <epenaltybox@...>; <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 3:33 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup
                      >
                      >
                      > Justice in the NHL?
                      >
                      > Do you believe there really is such a thing?
                      >
                      > When a player purposely jumps another player from behind, lands violently on
                      > top of him, breaking his neck and thus ending his career, yet the aggressor
                      > is only suspended a handful of games...do you really believe any form of
                      > justice was served?
                      >
                      > Justice exists to protect " little guys" from big boy abuse. Such a concept
                      > does not exist in the NHL.
                      >
                      > I'll never forget when Barry Cummins of the California Seals was pummelled,
                      > hacked, speared, and left beaten and bloodied like a rented mule by several
                      > Flyers because Cummins' stick had clipped Bobby Clarke in the forehead,
                      > opening a cut that required six stitches.
                      >
                      > The NHL did nothing to the Flyers players who unmercifully beat Cummins. The
                      > beating shook Cummins to the core and he was never the same player again.
                      >
                      > Justice in the NHL? What does that mean?
                      >
                      > --Dave Soutter
                      >
                      >
                      > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>
                      > Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 18:34:56
                      > To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: [hockhist] Re: KHL challenge for the Stanley Cup
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > No arguement with anything you wrote Bill - it probably summed it up very
                      > accurately.
                      >
                      > Just one rhetorical question for all of us: How well do you think we govern
                      > justice and are you happy with it?
                      >
                      > Because if you answer yes, then Bill's answer is why, and the interpreted
                      > result of the masses becomes one of apathy.
                      >
                      > If you answer no, then the interpreted result by the masses is one of
                      > protest.
                      >
                      > Morey
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                      > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                    • William Underwood
                      I think the problem comes when you try to interpret NHL justice like a court room today.it does not really apply. To use an analogy I read many years ago about
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 4, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I think the problem comes when you try to interpret NHL justice like a court
                        room today.it does not really apply. To use an analogy I read many years ago
                        about NHL refereeing and European refereeing, that said in Europe a ref is
                        more like a constable in Europe in the NHL he is more like a sheriff in the
                        Old West. To take it to another level, discipline in the NHL it is more like
                        a marshall in the Old West or a frontier judge and you get the idea better.
                        In those days if a guy was shot and it was a "fair fight" there would be no
                        trial. There was the "he asked for it" defense. And every gun fight was seen
                        differently. Were they drunk? /was it is a saloon or in the street? Was it
                        in a more settled town or not? How did it happen? Who shot first? Who were
                        the desperados involved? and it sort of has to be that way. It is hard to
                        categorize EVERYTHING that happens on the ice into black and white Remember
                        what we have here. We have a contact sport which by its very nature is a
                        different standard than most of everyday life. In everyday life you are not
                        allowed or encouraged to collide at speeds close 20 MPH. Crashing into walls
                        together is discouraged in everyday life. We do not carry long pieces of
                        lumber in everyday life that get swung around as apart of our job. Simply
                        put, in a world like that just as was the case in the old west when a lot of
                        folks were armed, you were along way from conventional authority and there
                        were dangerous folks out there, an entirely different sort of justice
                        prevailed. In the Old West, you had to be armed and often you DID have to
                        shoot.or you would have been dead.there can't be the same consistency of
                        justice as unconventional behavior is allowed due to necessity. I very much
                        about anyone wants contact out of hockey. Now if you want to see folks lose
                        interest try that! You have soccer on ice and maybe even worse.a true
                        bore.it becomes skating ping pong...would any of us REALLY want to watch 82
                        NHL All star games a year only less skilled? It reverses the issue of no
                        scoring to an excess.suddenly it you just are watching them skate back and
                        forth and it is a 16-12 score.no passion and the action is so routine that
                        it becomes dull and repetitive. Now if you are going to hit at that speed
                        you will have problems happen and the issue is to differentiate between
                        several levels...clean.clean but accidental problem, carelessness and
                        maliciousness. And there are degrees. Now what we strive for is NONE of the
                        last, as little as possible of careless but we DON'T want to do a much about
                        the other two or you get no check hockey. It is not easy, I have run leagues
                        and have had to do it and when you straight jacket it you run into problems.
                        You also need to look at each sort of foul differently, a stick foul you
                        have to be more strict on, a hit is a technically legal thing that was for
                        whatever reason gone badly.



                        Now you can take the view that response that public driven justice is not
                        justice and it is not but how badly does the public react to it? In Boston
                        they are HAPPY. In Vancouver they are pissed. The rest are divided/apathetic
                        and most folks really don't care after the next news item hits. In Philly,
                        what talk there was died quickly and as soon as you had the big trades it
                        was forgotten.this is not a murder trial it is a hockey suspension. The
                        folks who talk about it are hockey types who will keep on following because
                        they love the sport, for those that complain about, it, well they probably
                        use that as an excuse to say why they don't watch hockey when it is really
                        that they just don't like the sport. And in the end all law and justice is
                        driven by the public, this is why some places allow caning and others will
                        lot a murderer out in three years and even in those places murderer A gets
                        20 ye at the start and murderer B gets 5..Even what the DA goes for is in
                        part influenced by public opinion. Like I say sports are a microcosm..



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • MoreyH
                        Oh I strongly agree and disagree with you. I ran league, I played, I coached, I officiated - just not at the highest level. I developed a rule book for
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 5, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Oh I strongly agree and disagree with you.

                          I ran league, I played, I coached, I officiated - just not at the highest level. I developed a rule book for wheelchari hockey and even had a couple of IHL referees moonlight.

                          Fights did occur in those games too.

                          You're correct when you say that you can not be black-and-white. I once had a fight between two sons of the coaches, both of whom were mellow kids and the last two people you ever expected in a fight.

                          I don;t know why the fight started, but we had a an automatic one game suspension for a fight. As the fight occurred in the last regular season game, their first-round opponents naturally wanted the automatic suspension.

                          I looked at the details, and determined there was no way I was going to reward the other teams for a fight for a reason no one remembers, including the referee, how it started or even why. I did tell the players and the coaches however, if there ever was another fight, the kids and their coach would get a minimum 2-game suspension, no matter the circumstances.

                          Neither kid was ever a problem.

                          The differences between myself (then) and the NHL are:

                          1. No vested interests. I was there for everyone. I didn't pull a referee aside and ask how come my son's team was getting screwed. (Still can't believe that Bettman & Co. see nothing wrong with that.)

                          2. I was consistent. I would make the exact same ruling if those exact same circumstances came up. I dealt with a 15-year-old giving a two-handed whirlybird in a playoff game to a much bigger opponent and felling him like a lumberjack to an oak tree. He was banished. The agressor was an all-star. He was banished.

                          3. I didn't make the rules up as I went along, but I did. And I can always defend myself. Two words Sabres fans: Brett Hull.

                          4. Even though I had friends who were coaches - one of the officiants for my wedding, for instance - I refused to run my league like the Old Boys Network. This was who I was, and what I'm doing. If you don't like it, well, don't let the swinging bench doors hit your fanny on the way out. The Old Boys Club has been so intertwined with the NHL for so many years - one of the Hall of Fame officials told me that the way the Hall elections worked well into the 1980s was that Harold Ballard and Bill Wirtz would have lunch, come to an agreement, and tell the committee that if they liked their prestigious job, this is who gets elected - that the NHL COULDN'T get rid of the Old Boys CLub even if it desired to. The Jacobs' and Sniders have given (and made) way too much to ever let that happen.

                          Morey



                          --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I think the problem comes when you try to interpret NHL justice like a court
                          > room today.it does not really apply. To use an analogy I read many years ago
                          > about NHL refereeing and European refereeing, that said in Europe a ref is
                          > more like a constable in Europe in the NHL he is more like a sheriff in the
                          > Old West. To take it to another level, discipline in the NHL it is more like
                          > a marshall in the Old West or a frontier judge and you get the idea better.
                          > In those days if a guy was shot and it was a "fair fight" there would be no
                          > trial. There was the "he asked for it" defense. And every gun fight was seen
                          > differently. Were they drunk? /was it is a saloon or in the street? Was it
                          > in a more settled town or not? How did it happen? Who shot first? Who were
                          > the desperados involved? and it sort of has to be that way. It is hard to
                          > categorize EVERYTHING that happens on the ice into black and white Remember
                          > what we have here. We have a contact sport which by its very nature is a
                          > different standard than most of everyday life. In everyday life you are not
                          > allowed or encouraged to collide at speeds close 20 MPH. Crashing into walls
                          > together is discouraged in everyday life. We do not carry long pieces of
                          > lumber in everyday life that get swung around as apart of our job. Simply
                          > put, in a world like that just as was the case in the old west when a lot of
                          > folks were armed, you were along way from conventional authority and there
                          > were dangerous folks out there, an entirely different sort of justice
                          > prevailed. In the Old West, you had to be armed and often you DID have to
                          > shoot.or you would have been dead.there can't be the same consistency of
                          > justice as unconventional behavior is allowed due to necessity. I very much
                          > about anyone wants contact out of hockey. Now if you want to see folks lose
                          > interest try that! You have soccer on ice and maybe even worse.a true
                          > bore.it becomes skating ping pong...would any of us REALLY want to watch 82
                          > NHL All star games a year only less skilled? It reverses the issue of no
                          > scoring to an excess.suddenly it you just are watching them skate back and
                          > forth and it is a 16-12 score.no passion and the action is so routine that
                          > it becomes dull and repetitive. Now if you are going to hit at that speed
                          > you will have problems happen and the issue is to differentiate between
                          > several levels...clean.clean but accidental problem, carelessness and
                          > maliciousness. And there are degrees. Now what we strive for is NONE of the
                          > last, as little as possible of careless but we DON'T want to do a much about
                          > the other two or you get no check hockey. It is not easy, I have run leagues
                          > and have had to do it and when you straight jacket it you run into problems.
                          > You also need to look at each sort of foul differently, a stick foul you
                          > have to be more strict on, a hit is a technically legal thing that was for
                          > whatever reason gone badly.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Now you can take the view that response that public driven justice is not
                          > justice and it is not but how badly does the public react to it? In Boston
                          > they are HAPPY. In Vancouver they are pissed. The rest are divided/apathetic
                          > and most folks really don't care after the next news item hits. In Philly,
                          > what talk there was died quickly and as soon as you had the big trades it
                          > was forgotten.this is not a murder trial it is a hockey suspension. The
                          > folks who talk about it are hockey types who will keep on following because
                          > they love the sport, for those that complain about, it, well they probably
                          > use that as an excuse to say why they don't watch hockey when it is really
                          > that they just don't like the sport. And in the end all law and justice is
                          > driven by the public, this is why some places allow caning and others will
                          > lot a murderer out in three years and even in those places murderer A gets
                          > 20 ye at the start and murderer B gets 5..Even what the DA goes for is in
                          > part influenced by public opinion. Like I say sports are a microcosm..
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • William Underwood
                          Morey the one thing that I can tell you about this entire process is that no matter WHO odes it and HOW well it is done you will always hear the same thing I
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Morey the one thing that I can tell you about this entire process is that no
                            matter WHO odes it and HOW well it is done you will always hear the same
                            thing "I was screwed" and "so and so got preferential treatment".it is
                            battle cry of the loser. Montreal has no influence? Ed Snider has probably
                            had more guys suspended than any three owners! And he is not a part of what
                            we now would call "the Old Boys Club"?



                            There is no smoking gun here. Judgment can always be questioned and always
                            will be. There will always be the case of "what he did was not really as bad
                            as so and so but he got more!" Human nature and fallibility bare there. Some
                            of us think that Michael Vick should never have seen the inside of an NBFL
                            stadium.a league that prides itself on supposedly making character important
                            today yet here we have a guy who behaved as horrendously as possible being
                            idolized.so much for "character" meaning anything. Baseball has an entire
                            generation of cheaters.poor Roger Maris got an asterisk in his name to his
                            dying day merely because he dared to break the record of the legend and be
                            less than a legend himself but we have Mr. Chemistry there with no asterisk
                            as home run king.yet baseball strand against cheating. Would Mantle have
                            had an asterisk had he broken the record? I doubt it! In soccer you have a
                            corrupt World Cup committee yet outside of England no one ahs the guts to
                            scream (of course England was screwed by it) and good old Herr Blatter
                            remains at the top with a hand out as usual.third world nations have given
                            him more of their foreign aid than the folks who are supposed to get it!
                            Even Mr. Stern makes some questionable calls across New York. So we have one
                            sport laced with ex cons and should be cons taking the field every Sunday,
                            another that selectively decides who should hold a record and who should not
                            because they like one guy over another and a world sport that allows bribery
                            and blatant manipulation to govern them and yes we even see on the field
                            stuff blown the Maradona goal remember, the magic hand that did not exist?
                            And they say "we don't need replay"!. Is the good old NHL any worse? Why
                            should fans desert it and not these other sports?



                            Look I have criticized Bettman over the years and would love to see Canada
                            get bits Cup but sorry on this one I draw lines. I see no "fix". And nor do
                            I see the NHL as being all that much worse than other sports. It is a TOIUGH
                            gamer to adjudicate, far more borderline stuff. And yes they make mistakes
                            but it is, has been and always will be that way. Remember the Richard riots?
                            Folks said "had he been named Richardson he would not have gotten as bad a
                            suspension." Some things never change.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • MoreyH
                            As the NHL s longest-tenured owner, I m sure Snider is now King of the Ol Boys Club. He paid his dues. The most valid criticism of my book was that it did not
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 8, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              As the NHL's longest-tenured owner, I'm sure Snider is now King of the Ol Boys Club. He paid his dues.

                              The most valid criticism of my book was that it did not consider other sports in context.

                              It's a fair and valid comment, although I don't believe I need to understand the Armenian genocide to know that Hitler was just a very bad idea and wrong.

                              The NHL gets off the hook way too much for its poor officiating and suplpementary discipline. Gary Bettman and/or Bill Daly should have seen the Campbell issue as far back as 2002, when Gregory was drafted 67th overall.

                              It's much more convenient to complain the game is too fast blah blah blah than to take appropriate actions that might ruffle a few feathers.

                              Morey
                            • William Underwood
                              Slight issue.Campbell has always removed himself form suspensions involving his sons team.there goes the smoking gun! Morey, pro hockey is sport where we have
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 9, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Slight issue.Campbell has always removed himself form suspensions involving
                                his sons team.there goes the smoking gun! Morey, pro hockey is sport where
                                we have a lot of brothers and fathers and sons etc, we deal with it ALL of
                                the time and the decorum is that when your son is involved you BACK out of
                                the room..literally! I have SEEN it at work. When as a scouting staff we
                                talk about a guys son, he LEAVES and often we are even asked "don't draft
                                him". Pedigree has a legit role in evaluation but at the same time I see it
                                at the higher levels, you back out when the son is involved. In this sport
                                there is a fair chance that your son will follow in your foot steps or you
                                have a brother, nephew etc playing so we have dealt with it FOR YEARS. You
                                can't ask guys to quit because their son has succeeded or ask a son to not
                                play or to not let the son into the league if eh deserves it. So we do the
                                best that we can.you butt out. Sorry but there was no "fix in" for this
                                year's Cup just a MORBID melt down..no new book to title "Six Men Offside".
                                :-) No Black Sox.just a new version of the 64 Phillies blowing a pennant
                                BADLY..



                                Your book was good. But at the same time my point is that if inconsistencies
                                etc in other sports don't; ruin their credibility so why should NHL issues
                                ruin its credibility? Why should they be special? You are actually the one
                                that if anything is saying "Nazi genocide is bad and says bad stuff about
                                them but Turkish genocide does not say the same of them." And talking
                                genocide is a bit extreme when it is more like a more simple issue, the
                                concepts of justice and law which indeed it is a matter of as these concepts
                                are not just things that governments deal with, any organization has them to
                                some degree.rules and how they are enforced..



                                Indeed there are inconsistencies, but that is because justice is a
                                SUBJECTIVE process and MUST be. And that goers for the NHL right through the
                                Supreme Court. We just saw a woman walk this week who may well have
                                murdered her child in cold blood or at the very least wasted millions of
                                dollars of court time because she lied but will walk scott free. She is at
                                worst a murderer at best a pathological little lair who didn't won up to an
                                accident and save us the trouble in the first place then tried to blame it
                                all on everything from her dad to the price of wheat for it happening. Now
                                some other schmo will do real time for a good deal less. Does it destroy our
                                justice system? How many murderers have walked because they are CELEBRITY
                                murderers? On the other hand if we see celebrities also taken to trial for
                                ridiculously small amounts of evidence for a local yokel DA to seem
                                big.remember Kobe Bryant's alleged rape case which held about as much water
                                as the Titanic did after it hit the ice berg?



                                N\HL justice is imperfect but so is ANY system. Do we want a system where
                                each case is "the same"? NO! Manslaughter is not premeditated homicide and
                                there are even degrees of that. Shop lifting is not grand theft or armed
                                robbery. And even subsidiary to this each case is different. Did somebody
                                mired ran old lady for ten bucks or did someone murder a person who was
                                abusing them? Was it a crime of passion or a crime of greed or hate? The
                                legal system makes these distinctions EVERY day but does it lose
                                credibility? Do we say."no lets do like the Mid East, a guy steals something
                                he loses a hand no matter what.if he needed food or if he just did it to
                                steal money doesn't matter, he stole so off with the hand."? We have degrees
                                of guilt. What sort of system does not have them? Hockey's biggest issue is
                                that among North American sports it will always have the most such issues of
                                ANY sport due its very nature, we playa fast game, where there is hitting
                                and a piece of lumber involved. Simply out there are more cases to compare
                                than most sports. There are sports abroad who have a lot of Tribunals such
                                as the AFL in Australia and is there complete consistency or a list of what
                                you get for what? No. Is it perfect? No. But it survives. The judge took
                                himself off of the bench for this episode of law and order. And did he win
                                the Cup for Boston anyway? No. If anyone who was not a Bruin contributed to
                                it lets say it was Luongo (who gets the Brian Boucher Award for Not So
                                Clutch Goaltending in the Finals) , the Sedins (joint winners of the
                                Hartless Trophy."when the going got rough we were behind it.by 25 feet"
                                both in this series and when Suter and Weber were also "mean to them") and
                                the Fickle Finger of Fate that put Hamhuis and Samuelsson out. Which
                                incidentally if Krejci was to have sat for it I would have said, envelope
                                please.ONE game..



                                Sorry but this was no fix ands it wasn't even a complete Bruin win.they won
                                as much because the Canucks did NOT deserve it as they did because they
                                deserved it. And we saw the symptoms early. This bunch had all the killer
                                instinct as a hair dressing convention and the few and proud who broke that
                                pattern were so beaten up from carrying the entire load of clutch play by
                                the time that they got to the final the tank was on empty. The Bruins were a
                                direct opposite, the ONE thing I will NEVER accuse this team of is a lack of
                                guts and the guts went top to bottom.







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • MoreyH
                                And put the person he hired in charge, while he s sending off emails, from his NHL email account, to the Head Ref in Charge complaining about the officiating
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 12, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  And put the person he hired in charge, while he's sending off emails, from his NHL email account, to the Head Ref in Charge complaining about the officiating involving his kid's team.

                                  Sorry, Bill, but that's as kosher as a ham and cheese sandwich.

                                  Morey

                                  --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Slight issue.Campbell has always removed himself form suspensions involving
                                  > his sons team.there goes the smoking gun!
                                • William Underwood
                                  The worst email actually impugned Marc Savard who Campbell called a little faker who does Savard play for.some team that has a B on their sweater.granted
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 13, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The worst email actually impugned Marc Savard who Campbell called a little
                                    faker" who does Savard play for.some team that has a "B" on their
                                    sweater.granted before his son played with him.So sorry Morey your smoking
                                    gun is about as effective evidence as the moment when OJ tried on the glove!
                                    :-) Or maybe as kosher as ham and egg sandwich mixed with some shell fish
                                    and served with a milk shake. :-) As some know a summer passion of mine is
                                    Aussie Rules footy. EACH week we have the SAME sort of droning by the
                                    commentators about tribunals. "Will that get him any matches." "It shouldn't
                                    his head didn't bounce off of the ground which seems to be what they use
                                    now." "Yeah well I guess is if that is what they go by." Laughter "Well it
                                    seems to be." That is close to a transcript form this weeks
                                    Western/Melbourne tilt. Colin Campbell does not work for the AFL.they us e a
                                    TRIBUNAL. A few weeks back a big issue was the interpretation of the play
                                    on rule. Sound familiar



                                    I know A LOT of guys in the NHL and nary a ONE has EVER hinted that he feels
                                    Campbell is biased! These same guys DO criticize decisions and one almost
                                    got in trouble for doing it publicly with a reporter when asked about it.
                                    And no it was not Campbell's integrity it was simply the NORMAL issue of " I
                                    don't think eh deserved it" that we see ALL of the time and EVERYWHERE! Some
                                    critiques the man's decisions but no one ever questioned his character and
                                    these guys question everything.



                                    And let me ask have the BRUINS had any suspensions of late?



                                    Paille sits 4 in Feb.

                                    Marchand sits 2 in Mar.



                                    Now have Bruin opponents avoided suspension...we have "the bite" which MANY
                                    screamed blood for.I was not one of them but MANY did..did Burrows sit?
                                    Nope. How many games did Rome sit? The same number as Paille did for a blind
                                    hit. In fact the calls for that were ALL 2-4 games this year. The length
                                    seems largely to happen for was there an injury? One would THINK if "the
                                    fix" was in, Burrows a key scorer for Vancouver would have sat 4.I presume
                                    he is Campbells long lost cousin? So exactly where is the inequity? Was Rome
                                    a great stand out for Vancouver? Are teams clamoring."you know what we need
                                    to win a cup is that Aaron \Rome.why we may give him a 6 million dollar
                                    offer sheet"? Nor do I know anyone in the game who felt he should not have
                                    sat.



                                    One can argue Chara should have sat but I hear that debate time and time
                                    again. Sorry gang but I don't see all of the evil others do.The players were
                                    close together and just off of a contested puck.Rome in contrast skated
                                    several feet into the man.Charas arms were at his side and were not lifted
                                    to the head, the head injury was from hitting the divider.Rome moved his
                                    arms and his body upward on the hit. Now had that divider not been hit.well
                                    Lucic made similar hit right near the divider on Tyrell who was not hurt and
                                    hesis not even get called by the ref for it! Sure Chara could have sat a
                                    game or two. But then again I can also see the argument for what he got. a
                                    major and game and that is all. I just don't see the same issues as Rome.
                                    They were coming off of a contested play and were right with each other
                                    almost tied up. Is a hit all that unthinkable? No. I think Chara meant to
                                    hit him but not into the glass. The other guy made a HIGH hit, his arms were
                                    up his body went up at a guy who was several feet away and hand distributed
                                    the puck at that point. Now had he kept his arm down I may give him some
                                    wriggle room or had they been closer together. They were not. Add on this is
                                    PRECISELY the type of hit that cost us Crosby and others have been hurt by.
                                    It was the TEXT book concussion hit. How many times do we see guys have
                                    their heads go into dividers? How many injuries have there been that way
                                    this year? Morey I GREW UP a Hab fan but do I think I would have sat Chara?
                                    I doubt it. I wanted to see the Canucks win the Cup but would I have sat
                                    Rome? YES. And just to make sure that we are all clear I am not on an NHL
                                    payroll, have bashed Bettman more times than Carter has liver pills and no
                                    Bruin is a blood relation or even one by marriage or blood brotherhood. I
                                    saw a junior kid go into a divider this year and he hurt his hip badly.no
                                    call was made for it (nor should there have been) and even him and his dad
                                    didn't whine about it. Crap happens. And remember this was Montreal, in
                                    Nashville odds are all it makes is somebody's "big hit" video. Montreal fans
                                    are passionate and bit biased and folks like to weigh in, for the Habs of
                                    course.had Subban made the hit I doubt we see the same reaction.



                                    I still see no smoking gun.no terrible den of corruption. I see human
                                    judgment and controversy. I can see an argument for Chara to sit and I see a
                                    counter argument.for Rome I see a counter too as I have said before but it
                                    is weaker one. And in the context of other suspensions and non suspensions
                                    and the fact that if Colin just wanted to get sonny boy a Cup he would have
                                    screamed for Burrows to sit.I see no smoking gun. Add on Morey, did ANYONRE
                                    REALLY think that losing Rome cost the Canucks the Cup? Did anyone at the
                                    time say."ugh oh they lost perennial "Norris Trophy candidate" Aaron Rome,
                                    they are going to blow their series lead!". Again if anyone wanted to really
                                    screw Vancouver they would have had "Count Dracula" sitting for "the
                                    bite".Your argument is circumstantial AT BEST and where does that get a
                                    conviction.not even in the NHL or its fans which is why we see no "Campbell
                                    gate" raging on in Parliament nor did fans turn off the NHL after the
                                    decision.







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • William Underwood
                                    PS.as I have said before..if anyone was writing stuff that influenced the NHL it was the media.they were already wringing their hands over the Burrows non
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 13, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      PS.as I have said before..if anyone was writing stuff that influenced the
                                      NHL it was the media.they were already wringing their hands over the Burrows
                                      non suspension.if Rome had NOT gotten 'the chair" I bet you would have seen
                                      some accuse the NHL of rigging the final for Canada just as you are accusing
                                      Campbell of doing for Boston..In the end I see no evil just imperfect human
                                      judgment at work which we will always see.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.