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Re: Re: Wanted - Ideas to spice up the NHL season

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  • William Underwood
    One clarification.when I said 17 man game rosters I meant 17 skaters as opposed to 18.and that means 6 new jobs for regs as Io did not adds the targets back
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 10, 2010
      One clarification.when I said 17 man game rosters I meant 17 skaters as
      opposed to 18.and that means 6 new jobs for regs as Io did not adds the
      "targets" back in.I would also in the past suggest a smaller protected list
      than in the past however the mechanics of expansion are complicated by the
      new free agency rules. On one hand an established team cold leave open free
      agents that they are less confident or do not with to resign but on the
      other the new teams with a lot of open cap space could also sign a fair
      amount of FAs.so a novel idea might be to allow an established club to
      protect so much cap space range and the new clubs must select a player from
      each club and also have a range for them. A new idea for a new era..instead
      of pure numbers of players for protected list the more [pertinent issue
      today is that cap space.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William Underwood
      Nice idea but it wouldn t fly.the problem with promotion/relegation in the North American pro sports system is simple, owners shell out millions to own a big
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 12, 2010
        Nice idea but it wouldn't fly.the problem with promotion/relegation in the
        North American pro sports system is simple, owners shell out millions to own
        a big league club and to be second division is less than big league. The
        minute that you go down your asset is devalued. Plus TV would never want to
        televise the second division and of course the first division would say "
        we'll keep all of that money ourselves.". And then you get into the vicious
        cycle that you see in Euro sports, people don't want to pay as much or
        attend a second local team so sponsors begin to shy off. This results even
        in Europe in a treadmill effect, you have the same giants who year after
        year win titles, then you have the same also ran teams then there is the
        crux if the problem, you have those teams that are up one year down the next
        and those who never get up. And the draft would never make up for it, teams
        would sell the asset or he would just leave. No one ants to watch, play for
        or have anything to do with the second division. Despite the promotion
        change it becomes in people's minds the AHL.



        Europe has a radically different ownership structure and until recently it
        was completely different, there was for years nothing resembling and owner
        and it STILL works differently. You even see that reflected in the teams,
        there was no territorial concept as it set itself up hence you have all of
        the London teams etc.



        Promotion relegation is a great idea in theory but in the practical work of
        today's business it just doesn't work as well. In a lot of sports even
        overseas they are abandoning it. I think even soccer will drop it we see the
        rise of G14's and eventually Super Leagues. It is just too inconsistent for
        owners as you evolve to that, and sponsors who have to wonder which markets
        will be there over the length of our contract?" Say for example a US sponsor
        buys into the NHL.he won't care about the second division and the value that
        the NHL will want will be based upon the sexy first division.well you might
        have 6 Canadian teams potentially thus over third of the first division
        markets are not that sponsors target audience.now take it the other way say
        a Canadian sponsor sees that potentially Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver
        could all go down. Say Chicago went down as they would have at one point
        under Wirtz the Elder you lose one of the three biggest markets in North
        America.a DISASTER for a sponsor. Then there are the new areas that Bettman
        wants to sell to, it is tough enough to sell tix in a lot of these places to
        see the top teams and stars, now if you tell them "ok, in effect this year
        you are a minor pro team, no shot at the Cup this season".Even in
        traditional GREAT places will folks pay 100 bucks a seat to have shot at
        maybe winning a second rate title and get sa shot to move up a year ahead?
        Season ticket sales plummet and if you are not in real contention attendance
        is down to 4000 and Taylor Hall is up for sale literally, for cash to make
        up for losses.Soon the treadmill is activated, you may have those top picks
        (which means an 18 year old is there to save you) but they are up for cash
        auction ASAP to offset losses. Unless you re on the cusp, only way to
        survive will be fire sales. And 18 year olds will not take you to the
        cusp.and the top vets will want no part of signing with you.



        Don't get me wrong it is a GREAT idea from the pure standpoint of a
        meaningful season as was the old Swedish system of a round robin and
        demoting bottom teams at mid year but it was scrapped too. The modern
        business of sport makes it impossible here and it is even getting tougher in
        Europe where they are used to it.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • mhdibiase
        Your point is well taken. I was unaware of the economic difficulties caused by elevation/relegation in Europe. After considering what you said then it really
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 12, 2010
          Your point is well taken.

          I was unaware of the economic difficulties caused by elevation/relegation in Europe.

          After considering what you said then it really comes down to truncating the NHL then.

          Same goes for NBA basketball when you consider those factors as well.

          Question is: if you're contracting a league? How much do you cut?

          Matt

          --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@...> wrote:
          >
          > Nice idea but it wouldn't fly.the problem with promotion/relegation in the
          > North American pro sports system is simple, owners shell out millions to own
          > a big league club and to be second division is less than big league. The
          > minute that you go down your asset is devalued. Plus TV would never want to
          > televise the second division and of course the first division would say "
          > we'll keep all of that money ourselves.". And then you get into the vicious
          > cycle that you see in Euro sports, people don't want to pay as much or
          > attend a second local team so sponsors begin to shy off. This results even
          > in Europe in a treadmill effect, you have the same giants who year after
          > year win titles, then you have the same also ran teams then there is the
          > crux if the problem, you have those teams that are up one year down the next
          > and those who never get up. And the draft would never make up for it, teams
          > would sell the asset or he would just leave. No one ants to watch, play for
          > or have anything to do with the second division. Despite the promotion
          > change it becomes in people's minds the AHL.
          >
          >
          >
          > Europe has a radically different ownership structure and until recently it
          > was completely different, there was for years nothing resembling and owner
          > and it STILL works differently. You even see that reflected in the teams,
          > there was no territorial concept as it set itself up hence you have all of
          > the London teams etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > Promotion relegation is a great idea in theory but in the practical work of
          > today's business it just doesn't work as well. In a lot of sports even
          > overseas they are abandoning it. I think even soccer will drop it we see the
          > rise of G14's and eventually Super Leagues. It is just too inconsistent for
          > owners as you evolve to that, and sponsors who have to wonder which markets
          > will be there over the length of our contract?" Say for example a US sponsor
          > buys into the NHL.he won't care about the second division and the value that
          > the NHL will want will be based upon the sexy first division.well you might
          > have 6 Canadian teams potentially thus over third of the first division
          > markets are not that sponsors target audience.now take it the other way say
          > a Canadian sponsor sees that potentially Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver
          > could all go down. Say Chicago went down as they would have at one point
          > under Wirtz the Elder you lose one of the three biggest markets in North
          > America.a DISASTER for a sponsor. Then there are the new areas that Bettman
          > wants to sell to, it is tough enough to sell tix in a lot of these places to
          > see the top teams and stars, now if you tell them "ok, in effect this year
          > you are a minor pro team, no shot at the Cup this season".Even in
          > traditional GREAT places will folks pay 100 bucks a seat to have shot at
          > maybe winning a second rate title and get sa shot to move up a year ahead?
          > Season ticket sales plummet and if you are not in real contention attendance
          > is down to 4000 and Taylor Hall is up for sale literally, for cash to make
          > up for losses.Soon the treadmill is activated, you may have those top picks
          > (which means an 18 year old is there to save you) but they are up for cash
          > auction ASAP to offset losses. Unless you re on the cusp, only way to
          > survive will be fire sales. And 18 year olds will not take you to the
          > cusp.and the top vets will want no part of signing with you.
          >
          >
          >
          > Don't get me wrong it is a GREAT idea from the pure standpoint of a
          > meaningful season as was the old Swedish system of a round robin and
          > demoting bottom teams at mid year but it was scrapped too. The modern
          > business of sport makes it impossible here and it is even getting tougher in
          > Europe where they are used to it.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • William Underwood
          Bad math again.4 hours sleep.there would be a net gain of 10 new jobs.I keep on forgetting those damn goalies! Maybe it is because I have seen so many of late
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 13, 2010
            Bad math again.4 hours sleep.there would be a net gain of 10 new jobs.I keep
            on forgetting those damn goalies! Maybe it is because I have seen so many of
            late that I'd LIKE to forget!



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • DAVE SOUTTER
            Eagle conference? To honor Alan Eagleson, perhaps? ;) Morey-- do you really believe a Winter Classic game in San Diego would sell? I like the idea--my
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 3, 2011
              "Eagle" conference? To honor Alan Eagleson, perhaps? ;)

              Morey-- do you really believe a Winter Classic game in San Diego would sell? I like the idea--my sister lives in Poway and we could visit her and attend the game, but is there that much interest locally?

              We've had the discussion before about changing the size of the goal. It will never happen. It would be much easier to change the rule involving contact with goalies playing the puck; and restrictions on pad size have already been implemented.

              Dave Soutter
              Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

              -----Original Message-----
              From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>
              Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 19:02:26
              To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [hockhist] Re: Wanted - Ideas to spice up the NHL season

               



              Here are mine:

              1. When the technology allows it, play an outdoor game to the west. San Diego would be great. Nothing happening at Petco Park (think of the aerial shots), or in San Diego for that matter as the Chargers are on the downward slope. Lots of sports fans looking for something to do, vacation for the traveling team's fans.

              2. Redo the Conferences. Same playoff system, but instead of east and west, do a Prince of Wales and Eagle conference to honor the two countries...

              PRINCE OF WALES CONFERENCE
              EAST
              Carolina
              Tampa Bay
              Philadelphia
              Pittsburgh
              NY Islanders

              MIDWEST
              Buffalo
              Detroit
              Toronto
              Chicago
              Minnesota

              WEST
              St. Louis
              Phoenix
              Calgary
              Anaheim
              Vancouver

              EAGLE CONFERENCE
              ATLANTIC
              Atlanta
              Florida
              Washington
              New Jersey
              Nashville

              NORTHERN
              Boston
              Ottawa
              Columbus
              Montreal
              NY Rangers

              PACIFIC
              San Jose
              Edmonton
              Dallas
              Los Angeles
              Colorado

              Schedule: Each team plays within 2 teams in its own division 5 times and the other two teams 6 times. They play a natural rival in the other conference four times, and everybody else gets a home and away game.

              My proposed natural rivals: CAR-ATL, TAM-FLA, PIT-WAS, PHI-NJ, NYI-NYR, CHI-BOS, BUF-OTT, DET-CBJ, TOR-MTL, ANA-LA, VAN-SJ, CGY-EDM, STL-NAS, COL-MN, PHX-DAL.

              There could be some tweaking.

              And then we need to clean up the rule book. I thought the Caps were robbed of a goal when Fleury came out of the net. Somehow, we've accepted the goalie playing the puck as an inherent and undangerous play. Goalies are bigger, pads are lighter..although I'm a traditionalist, it's time to add a couple of feet of width to the net. Then if the goalie wants to cheat with larger pads, he'll lose mobility. 4 by 8 has a better ring to it than 4 by 6. Should eliminate the butterfly as well, until all goalies are 6'5"...
              Morey
            • MoreyH
              Yes a Winter Vacation Classic would sell out, easily, because you re not the only one who would use a hockey game vacation as an excuse to visit a sister in
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 3, 2011
                Yes a Winter Vacation Classic would sell out, easily, because you're not the only one who would use a hockey game vacation as an excuse to visit a sister in Poway ;)

                Phil Pritchard would have no problem (he has a sister in La Mesa).

                And with no Chargers (they're sliding downhill even as we speak, and keeping GM Smith or Coach Turner, let alone both, is not the solution), college basketball apathy, no NBA, no NHL, no minor league basketball or hockey, one of North America's largest populations could use a little activity.

                We were colder than Pittsburgh Saturday, and we're more scenic. And if we're talking about expanding the game...

                (Personal preference, the Classic should alternate between rewarding diehard fans and gaining new ones, "alternate" not necessarily defined as every other.)

                There has been talk bandied about a game being played in Dominguez Hills between the Kings and Ducks, which would be stupid IMHO. If you're going to play in Dominguez Hills, you might has well play in Caracas or Tijuana at Cartel International Field.




                --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "DAVE SOUTTER " <dsoutter@...> wrote:
                >
                > "Eagle" conference? To honor Alan Eagleson, perhaps? ;)
                >
                > Morey-- do you really believe a Winter Classic game in San Diego would sell? I like the idea--my sister lives in Poway and we could visit her and attend the game, but is there that much interest locally?
                >
                > We've had the discussion before about changing the size of the goal. It will never happen. It would be much easier to change the rule involving contact with goalies playing the puck; and restrictions on pad size have already been implemented.
                >
                > Dave Soutter
                > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: MoreyH <epenaltybox@...>
                > Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 19:02:26
                > To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [hockhist] Re: Wanted - Ideas to spice up the NHL season
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > Here are mine:
                >
                > 1. When the technology allows it, play an outdoor game to the west. San Diego would be great. Nothing happening at Petco Park (think of the aerial shots), or in San Diego for that matter as the Chargers are on the downward slope. Lots of sports fans looking for something to do, vacation for the traveling team's fans.
                >
                > 2. Redo the Conferences. Same playoff system, but instead of east and west, do a Prince of Wales and Eagle conference to honor the two countries...
                >
                > PRINCE OF WALES CONFERENCE
                > EAST
                > Carolina
                > Tampa Bay
                > Philadelphia
                > Pittsburgh
                > NY Islanders
                >
                > MIDWEST
                > Buffalo
                > Detroit
                > Toronto
                > Chicago
                > Minnesota
                >
                > WEST
                > St. Louis
                > Phoenix
                > Calgary
                > Anaheim
                > Vancouver
                >
                > EAGLE CONFERENCE
                > ATLANTIC
                > Atlanta
                > Florida
                > Washington
                > New Jersey
                > Nashville
                >
                > NORTHERN
                > Boston
                > Ottawa
                > Columbus
                > Montreal
                > NY Rangers
                >
                > PACIFIC
                > San Jose
                > Edmonton
                > Dallas
                > Los Angeles
                > Colorado
                >
                > Schedule: Each team plays within 2 teams in its own division 5 times and the other two teams 6 times. They play a natural rival in the other conference four times, and everybody else gets a home and away game.
                >
                > My proposed natural rivals: CAR-ATL, TAM-FLA, PIT-WAS, PHI-NJ, NYI-NYR, CHI-BOS, BUF-OTT, DET-CBJ, TOR-MTL, ANA-LA, VAN-SJ, CGY-EDM, STL-NAS, COL-MN, PHX-DAL.
                >
                > There could be some tweaking.
                >
                > And then we need to clean up the rule book. I thought the Caps were robbed of a goal when Fleury came out of the net. Somehow, we've accepted the goalie playing the puck as an inherent and undangerous play. Goalies are bigger, pads are lighter..although I'm a traditionalist, it's time to add a couple of feet of width to the net. Then if the goalie wants to cheat with larger pads, he'll lose mobility. 4 by 8 has a better ring to it than 4 by 6. Should eliminate the butterfly as well, until all goalies are 6'5"...
                > Morey
                >
              • KEITH lenn
                Hi Morey, While I do admit that I do not know how to fix the NHL, I think a realignment of conferences is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. I
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 3, 2011
                  Hi Morey,

                  While I do admit that I do not know how to "fix" the NHL, I think a
                  realignment of conferences is a short-term solution to a long-term
                  problem. I think the novelty will wear off quickly.

                  Also, I do not like taking the Rangers/Islanders/Devils out of the same
                  division...the rivalries between these teams still exist; they are not
                  as strong as they have been in the past, but placing them in separate
                  divisions makes the game a typical two-pointer and removes the
                  atmosphere and anticipation...or as Dickie Dunn might say, "The spirit
                  of the thing..."

                  Just my two cents.

                  KJL

                  On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:02 PM, MoreyH wrote:

                  Here are mine:

                  1. When the technology allows it, play an outdoor game to the west.
                  San Diego would be great. Nothing happening at Petco Park (think of the
                  aerial shots), or in San Diego for that matter as the Chargers are on
                  the downward slope. Lots of sports fans looking for something to do,
                  vacation for the traveling team's fans.

                  2. Redo the Conferences. Same playoff system, but instead of east and
                  west, do a Prince of Wales and Eagle conference to honor the two
                  countries...

                  PRINCE OF WALES CONFERENCE
                  EAST
                  Carolina
                  Tampa Bay
                  Philadelphia
                  Pittsburgh
                  NY Islanders

                  MIDWEST
                  Buffalo
                  Detroit
                  Toronto
                  Chicago
                  Minnesota

                  WEST
                  St. Louis
                  Phoenix
                  Calgary
                  Anaheim
                  Vancouver

                  EAGLE CONFERENCE
                  ATLANTIC
                  Atlanta
                  Florida
                  Washington
                  New Jersey
                  Nashville

                  NORTHERN
                  Boston
                  Ottawa
                  Columbus
                  Montreal
                  NY Rangers

                  PACIFIC
                  San Jose
                  Edmonton
                  Dallas
                  Los Angeles
                  Colorado

                  Schedule: Each team plays within 2 teams in its own division 5 times
                  and the other two teams 6 times. They play a natural rival in the other
                  conference four times, and everybody else gets a home and away game.

                  My proposed natural rivals: CAR-ATL, TAM-FLA, PIT-WAS, PHI-NJ, NYI-NYR,
                  CHI-BOS, BUF-OTT, DET-CBJ, TOR-MTL, ANA-LA, VAN-SJ, CGY-EDM, STL-NAS,
                  COL-MN, PHX-DAL.

                  There could be some tweaking.

                  And then we need to clean up the rule book. I thought the Caps were
                  robbed of a goal when Fleury came out of the net. Somehow, we've
                  accepted the goalie playing the puck as an inherent and undangerous
                  play. Goalies are bigger, pads are lighter..although I'm a
                  traditionalist, it's time to add a couple of feet of width to the net.
                  Then if the goalie wants to cheat with larger pads, he'll lose mobility.
                  4 by 8 has a better ring to it than 4 by 6. Should eliminate the
                  butterfly as well, until all goalies are 6'5"...
                  Morey

                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lloyd Davis
                  ... If not up the coast.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 4, 2011
                    On 3-Jan-11, at 5:47 PM, MoreyH wrote:

                    > And with no Chargers (they're sliding downhill even as we speak,


                    If not up the coast.
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