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Best day ever for CIS versus NCAA teams

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  • Craig Wallace
    http://www.cisblog.ca/2010/10/hockey-best-day-ever-for-cis-vs-ncaa.html Sunday, October 3, 2010 Hockey: Best day ever for CIS vs. NCAA? For as long as I can
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 3, 2010
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      http://www.cisblog.ca/2010/10/hockey-best-day-ever-for-cis-vs-ncaa.html

      Sunday, October 3, 2010
      Hockey: Best day ever for CIS vs. NCAA?
      For as long as I can remember following CIAU and CIS hockey, the weekend in October when the Canadian teams visit the NCAA has always been a humbling experience, as most of "our" teams get blown off the ice. The American schools customarily invite Canadian schools for just that reason - these exhibition games are the first matches of the season for the U.S. teams, so their players get to skate the rust off and coaches get first looks at their rookies in action, plus tinker with line combinations. It is also a non-risk game (not counting injuries), since as an exhibition match the stats don't count and it can't affect their all-important rankings. If you are not aware, ALL non-conference games in the NCAA "count", and affect everything except conference standings. So that's why you want to play a Canadian patsy to start the season.

      But that is changing. In the last few years the AUS teams in particular have made their games against Hockey East, ECAC and Atlantic Hockey conference teams competitive. Some NCAA coaches are now being more strategic, inviting CIS teams who will give their teams a good no-risk workout, as opposed to a cakewalk. So is the quality of CIS hockey improving, or is the NCAA brand declining? That is probably a discussion for another day, but let's look at yesterday:

      CIS Winners (or not losers)
      UNB 4 at UMass-Amherst 3 (OT)
      Acadia 3 at Northeastern 2
      UOIT 3 at Ferris State 2 (Huge Upset!!!)
      Western Ontario 5 at Lake Superior State 4
      St. Francis Xavier 3 at New Hampshire 3 (OT)

      Competitive Games
      St. Thomas 3 at Sacred Heart 5
      Wilfrid Laurier 1 at Rochester Institute of Technology 3
      Nipissing 3 at Michigan Tech 5

      Not-so Competitive Games
      Manitoba 4 at St. Cloud State 7
      Windsor 1 at Alaska-Anchorage 4

      The Usual Blowouts
      York 0 at Niagara 9
      Carleton 1 at St. Lawrence 5
      Toronto 3 at Boston University 9
      Queen's 0 at Robert Morris 5
      UBC 1 at Nebraska-Omaha 6
      Lethbridge 1 at Colorado College 5

      Now I'm not expecting the same successes today. The travelling CIS squads will be playing well rested NCAA opponents who are hosting their season opening games. For "fair play" reasons, CIS sports don't generally schedule a rested team against a team that played the day or evening before. The only thing the CIS has in their favour today is that their squads have several games played together, and should have most of their kinks worked out. We'll see if that is enough.

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    • Michael Levin
      Thanks for the update and post, Craig. Let us know how the CIS fares in the remainder of its schedule against the American college squads. Is CIS hockey
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 3, 2010
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        Thanks for the update and post, Craig. Let us know how the CIS fares
        in the remainder of its schedule against the American college squads.

        Is CIS hockey improving? Is NCAA hockey slipping (doubtful)? A
        combination of both?
      • Mike Witty
        Oct. 13 Nebraska-Omaha* 7:04pm L 5-0 Here are some scores of the University of Manitoba Bisons vs various American teams in hockey...Most of the games the
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 3, 2010
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          Oct. 13
          Nebraska-Omaha*
          7:04pm
          L 5-0

          Here are some scores of the University of Manitoba Bisons vs various American teams in hockey...Most of the games the Bisons have lost...This is since the 2006-07 season.



          2006-07

          October 1, 2006 North Dakota L 5-2

          October 10, 2006 Nebraska-Omaha L 8-0



          2007-08

          October 7, 2007 North Dakota L 9-3

          October 20, 3007 Nebraska-Omaha L 8-1

          October 21, 2007 Canisius/Alabama L 3-2

          November 20, 2007 Bemidji L 5-1



          2008-09

          October 5, 2008 North Dakota L 6-2

          October 13, 2008 Nebraska-Omaha L 5-0

          October 31, 2009 Bemidji State L 7-0

          November 1, 2009 Bemidji State L 4-2



          2009-10

          October 5, 2009 North Dakota L 6-2

          October 13, 2009 Nebraska-Omaha L 7-4

          November 27, 2009 Iowa State W 8-3

          November 28, 2009 Iowa State W 10-2


          Then you included the sscore from this season in the post...

          2010-11

          October 2, 2010 St. Cloud State L 7-4

          October 3, 2010 North Dakota ...??? (not et played when written)



          In my mind, the NCAA has better programs because they have money. The CIS does have great programs but when you look at all the top Canadian going south of the border to join US schools (Toews, Karya, and so many more), the Canadian schools can't fully compete. I work for the University of Manitba Bisons hockey teams (both mens and womens) so I see it first hand. In a way ot's like comparing NFL and CFL...same type of game but one is higher then the other due to money (NFL over CFL)...and this is coming from a CFL fan...

          One thing I do like about the CIS is if a player plays for the CHL (Canadian Hockey League...WHL, OHL, QMJHL) \...every year he plays...he gets a year of Canadian college payed for (a school of his choise) and gets to continue to play hockey with that school...



          Mike Witty




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        • William Underwood
          To a degree maybe, but still when I see these games I see NCAA teams usually use two to three goalies and sit a lot of seniors. [Non-text portions of this
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 4, 2010
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            To a degree maybe, but still when "I see these games I see NCAA teams
            usually use two to three goalies and sit a lot of seniors.



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          • nieforth
            Good to see the Atlantic teams doing so well compared to the rest of the CIS. Joseph
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 9, 2010
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              Good to see the Atlantic teams doing so well compared to the rest of the CIS.

              Joseph

              > CIS Winners (or not losers)
              > UNB 4 at UMass-Amherst 3 (OT)
              > Acadia 3 at Northeastern 2
              > St. Francis Xavier 3 at New Hampshire 3 (OT)
              >
              > Competitive Games
              > St. Thomas 3 at Sacred Heart 5
            • Craig Wallace
              The AUS tends to be Canada s strongest conference. I just saw a review of University of New Brunswick s victory last week over RPI in Troy New York and the RPI
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 10, 2010
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                The AUS tends to be Canada's strongest conference. I just saw a review of University of New Brunswick's victory last week over RPI in Troy New York and the RPI coach said UNB is one of the best teams RPI will face all year.

                One thing about Canada is the AUS gives better financial support to student athletes than other conferences. They also have very good academic schools. So for a hockey player going to the AUS means good support, a great education, and excellent hockey. You can't beat that competition.

                And overall when you compare the CIS to NCAA there are some problems when you look at head to head games.

                1. The NCAA teams will not leave the US, so CIS schools are always playing on the road. And due to school these are very short, intense road trips with maybe 3 games in 4 nights. Add the travel and that is tough. (A few years ago when the University of Alberta was national champs they challenged the NCAA champ - I think it was North Dakota to come to Edmonton for a best 2-3 series played at Northlands Coliseum. Keep in mind U of A has a good record against the NCAA and are one of Canada's elite programs.) They were turned down flat even though they were looking at close to sell outs and the NCAA team would have received a percentage of the gate.)

                2. They are exhibition games so neither teams goes all out.

                3. The CIS has pushed for a North American championship series played after the University Cup and Frozen Four. The consensus I have read from CIS sources are that the elite CIS schools (UNB, Alberta, etc) can play with anyone in the NCAA and have a great chance of winning. There are also some awful CIS programs (mainly in Ontario) who are not even DIII level. But the NCAA won't even consider such a series. The question is why not?

                Craig


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: nieforth
                To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:53 PM
                Subject: [hockhist] Re: Best day ever for CIS versus NCAA teams



                Good to see the Atlantic teams doing so well compared to the rest of the CIS.

                Joseph

                > CIS Winners (or not losers)
                > UNB 4 at UMass-Amherst 3 (OT)
                > Acadia 3 at Northeastern 2
                > St. Francis Xavier 3 at New Hampshire 3 (OT)
                >
                > Competitive Games
                > St. Thomas 3 at Sacred Heart 5





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              • William Underwood
                Simple. First of all it id already a long season. Secondly, it is debatable that there would be any interest as US college hockey has little real nationals
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 11, 2010
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                  Simple. First of all it id already a long season. Secondly, it is debatable
                  that there would be any interest as US college hockey has little real
                  nationals following. It is regional and the interest is primarily based upon
                  regional rivalries. Thirdly…no matter what you say the CIS simply does not
                  get the same players. NO highly ranked kid goes there. The NCAA still gets a
                  high percentage of top Americans and virtually all of the late bloomers
                  which we see a lot of down here. They also get the odd well regarded
                  Canadian. The CIS gets NOITHING like that. the TOP major junior kids go pro.
                  The top tier two kids universally go to the US. not sure which wild eyed
                  nationalist says the top CIS clubs can compare to top NCAA clubs….look at
                  Wisconsin for a minute...you have Stepan who jumped right is as a regular in
                  New York, and you had three first round NHL picks, three second rounders
                  (including Stepan) and a third rounder…SEVEN guys taken in the top 100 and
                  change in the NHL draft! Look at even the local Princeton Tigers, not an NHL
                  factory ala Wisconsin, academics are TOUGH there...three guys to camp one
                  guy in the AHL of the seniors…and a lower round NHL pick playing who looks
                  like he just may have a future…TOUGH kid…odd what those Ivy Halls have been
                  producing lately…Parros, Westgarth professors of pugilism one A! :-) What
                  CIS program has stuff like that to talk about? If it was truly live fire
                  odds are it would not be even close. Finally having said all of this the
                  NCAA has nothing to gain. It would be like the Stanley Cup champ playing the
                  Calder Cup champ… a known probable outcome and if on that one given day
                  happened where the AHL champs win….hell to pay! So where is the motivation?
                  The Canadian clubs are not a draw here or even in Canada. There is no
                  burning desire for it as NCAA hockey lives in the backwaters of US sport in
                  most places. The CIS is not producing tons of players or seen as loaded so
                  where is the concept that they are as strong?



                  But take heart Canada you have Major Junior which is THE TOP developmental
                  system IN THE WORLD. Every year US fans tune in to the Memorial Cup and see
                  line ups like the Spitfires had last year and just open jawed say “wow”…each
                  year the OHL, WHL and QMJHL dominate the first round and get about 50 % of
                  the draft as theirs or soon to be theirs…Canada is the number one hockey
                  nation on earth…but nobody can own EVERYTHING…college hockey is the one
                  place where year after year Americans can say they are number one. Now an
                  interesting trans border challenge to me would be the tier two champs
                  against the USHL champs. Some in the USHL (less lucid minds and America’s
                  answer to wild eyed hockey nationalists) like to claim that it is close to
                  major junior but when you look below the surface that is not even remotely
                  correct. However, when you look at it calmly and closely, the USHL really
                  has an overall record that is more similar to the BCHL. I think THAT would
                  be an interesting match up. The USHL is less regional in recruiting but also
                  is not Canada. Both produce similar players. Bear in mind both see their top
                  guys go major junior or NCAA down the line, neither sends guys right to the
                  NHL. And a ton of the top non major junior US talent never sets foot on a
                  true USHL club, it goes straight from the USNDT (which plays part of its
                  schedule in the USHL but is not a true USHL team) to the NCAA or major
                  junior or right from Minny high school to the NCAA or plays elsewhere be it
                  Minny high school, prep, the EJ or NAHL. It could be a VERY good match up!
                  Both have the SAME type of players…older guys NCAA bound and some good
                  younger guys who go major junior or NCAA. Neither has a lot of the real
                  crème of their national talents…as just stated the USHL loses it to many
                  other sources while a league like the BCHL loses guys to major junior and
                  does not really recruit as far away. Both are THE top two developers of NCAA
                  talent, GREAT leagues for that mission! Neither has the depth or high end
                  talent of major junior but they are the strongest leagues underneath it. So
                  instead of NCAA/CIS which is a snore, a USHL/Royal Bank Champ series could
                  at least be interesting. Not much draw from the overall public in either
                  country (nor would the college series) but AT LEAST it would get scouts
                  coming in DROVES, that’s for sure! But file it under stuff that will never
                  happen…too many in the USHL don’t like to admit it would be a good series
                  even though anyone else in hockey would tell them it would...they actually
                  like to think that they should play in the Memorial Cup ….wild eyed
                  nationalism happen in all corners. :-) Logic says college hockey is really
                  America’s domain and top level junior hockey is Canada’s…which is why we get
                  talk about everything EXCEPT that “tweener” series that SHOULD be, logical
                  action is far too rare a commodity in our great game.



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