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Re: [hockhist] Re: Death on the Ice

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  • Craig
    Bill, Again the difference is in all the examples you pose (a hard hit in football, getting hit by a pitch, a crash in NASCAR, etc) those actions are a
    Message 1 of 41 , Jan 6, 2009
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      Bill,

      Again the difference is in all the examples you pose (a hard hit in football, getting hit by a pitch, a crash in NASCAR, etc) those actions are a legitimate part of the game. Fighting, no matter how you rationalize it, is against the rules and therefore not a legitimate part of the game. I remember watching an Edmonton Eskimo player get paralyzed in a 1986 CFL game by a hard hit. I was horrified by the injury but the hit was clean and within the rules. That was an accident. An injury in a fight isn't an accident. You are making a clear decision to violate the rules of the game (and may I add here rules that are followed by the majority of nations who play hockey) and therefore stepping outside the bounds of good sportsmanship. That is a clear decision you make and any injury or worse that results isn't an accident.

      You have raised St. Paul and boxing before and again I responded. The whole point of boxing is to fight. Both people consent to it. I don't enjoy that sport at all but don't object to it. The point of hockey is to put the puck in the net. Please Bill, refer to to one mainstream hockey book that I can go out and buy that describes how driving your fist into another human beings face is part of the games' strategy. Just give me one.

      Bill you seem to equate penalizing fighting more heavily (you can't remove it just like you will see fights in baseball, football etc - it is a matter of do you wish to penalize it heavier) with taking out hitting. I don't recall anyone arguing to remove body checking. I love a hard hitting game and when I played hockey I loved to hit. Just like I loved to hit when I played football. But as Father David Bauer always said (and he did have a bit of success coaching as you'd admit) you can play tough aggressive hockey and not fight. And please if fighting is so much part of the NHL game (as opposed to hockey in most parts of the world) why do you almost never see it in the playoffs? Why do goons see little ice time in the playoffs?

      The only rational argument I have ever heard for fighting in hockey is that the NHL season is so long and has so may meaningless games that they need fighting to keep some level of interest up with the casual fan. That has some logic although I am not sure how logical it is. But going back to the playoffs and the lack of fighting there it does make some sense.

      Hey fighting may be your scene. If that is the case that is cool as long as you are prepared to put up with tragedies like Don Sanderson just for your enjoyment.

      Craig




      ----- Original Message -----
      From: William Underwood
      To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:48 PM
      Subject: [hockhist] Re: Death on the Ice


      And I have never said "no one gets hurt in a fight" just that serious injury
      is infrequent. And will you put the same onus on fans who like a hard check
      the next time a guy dies from one of them? A big tackle ion football" When a
      scrum collapses in rugby? When a baseball player is beaned and dies? Should
      those fans feel guilty? After all isn't it the same with a really hard check
      ort when a safety tries to saw a WR in half? You want big hits and cheer for
      them so are they not saying "I am prepared to watch someone get hurt and
      maybe die because I enjoy the spectacle". What about boxing Craig. and
      remember St Paul was a fight fan, was he saying that? And in his day is was
      the real article, no head gear, no gloves.What about NASCAR or Indy? How
      many guys have dies on the track? I guess everybody that watches the Indy is
      ready to see "somebody get hurt or die for their own spectacle". As an
      animal lover maybe I ought to rake myself over the coals for watching horse
      racing.after all how many thoroughbreds have to be put down due to
      racing.are we callous enough to say "I am prepared to watch an animal get
      hurt or die for my own spectacle"? Craig you have one hockey fight fatality,
      do you know how many guys die playing football or rugby each year? How many
      boxers die or get long term brain damage? Or for that matter how many horses
      get put down.I can think of two that I have seen in the last 18 months and I
      don't watch much racing! Sorry but your appeal has a major flaw to
      it.compared to most contact athletic endeavors the hockey fight has a
      miniscule death list or even maimed list. I am more reviled by high hits to
      the head (amazingly enough in "tame old NCAA hockey"{ they now actually
      announce call as "contact to the head" and on almost every contact call I
      hear it), stick fouls, guys who go for the knee, or general cheap shot
      artists. Sorry the guys who are honest enough to drop their gloves are less
      of a menace to the game and each other.

      PS: I know that you like football.I hope that the next time that you cheer a
      guy being railed on some nasty hit you say to yourself "I am prepared to
      watch someone get hurt or die for my spectacle." It is the same thing.

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    • William Underwood
      I would think that we would see one of two things. 1-Nature takes its course. The Euro teams would probably be mostly Euro players in the end and we would not
      Message 41 of 41 , Jan 9, 2009
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        I would think that we would see one of two things.



        1-Nature takes its course. The Euro teams would probably be mostly Euro
        players in the end and we would not see a ton of interlocking play. Hence we
        would see current NHL rules but little fighting. This is how the World Cup
        works, it is the NHL rule book.



        2-We might see something where Europe has its won rules and when we play for
        a title we see the home team uses its book ala baseball with the DH.



        But I am not so sure that we will see Euro teams so fast. And keep in mind I
        am an advocate of them. The problems are complex. First of all there are few
        buildings in Europe that are up to NHL standards. Then there is the matter
        of travel. We also have the issue that the great hockey towns are largely
        not in the more wealthy Euro nations but in developing economies. Then we
        get into the politics and infighting. Who will own the teams? How will the
        national federations get their cut as the NHL will doubtlessly cut into
        their revenue streams. Then we have the NHLPA to deal with about the travel
        and the fact that many North American swill not want to play in Europe. We
        are a culturally backward lot.:-) Hell how many guys could we get to play in
        Quebec where they are close to home and most people are bilingual, can you
        imagine telling the next John Ogrodnick (who wanted out when we got him) or
        more accurately Mrs. Ogrodnick "you will play in Moscow next year." And it
        was an issue that we had to deal with in Quebec! Some guys just did not want
        to ;lay there, Eric Lindros was not the first! If we were telling guys to
        "catch the next plane to Helsinki" we would have a ton of Lindros type hold
        outs!



        We will see some sort of world title down the line but it may not be through
        NHL expansion but rather via merger. I think that the KHL will survive. It
        will have tough times as it is WAY TOO bloated and was perhaps a few years
        premature. But IF they can get non Russian teams and start to prune out the
        weaklings that are there now you may see a viable mostly Euro player league.
        Eventually peace will have to be made.



        The only other choice is to create an entire Euro division. To me it is not
        all that logical to go in peace meal one team at a time or else that team
        will have the world's record operating costs! Moving teams is the very
        definition of peace meal. And you have a few Canadian cities that could be
        options as well as a few US ones so Europe is a less likely option. Simply
        put, we have to figure out what to do with Hamilton before we can tackle
        Stockholm where issues in many ways are twice as complex!



        So sorry Craig, it won't be the end of fighting unless all of those Euro
        fans migrate over here after a nuclear holocaust has wiped out the North
        American ones who like fighting.it will stay here in North America and I
        would almost go as far as to say that it is more likely to catch on there
        than die here. After all where do we see more fights IN the crowd! :-) And
        in Britain they actually allowed fighting, crowds did not decline. My guess
        is we say if the NHL expands "here are the rules" and Euro teams will build
        in a way to suit their market minus fighters and we keep them over here. Or
        we see a Euro body and when we meet in world titles we have a rules
        compromise and fighting may well be out for that final as again it is a
        different market with the unique appeal of nationalism. Or, judging by some
        of the generation of new Euro players, it may be in.even Ovechkin has been
        known to drop them now and again and as for Chara.who knows? But at any rate
        I doubt that it will be an issue for a while.I think that Canada has to be
        dealt with first and the odd US market that there are actually REAL reasons
        to think might support the NHL (Portland for example) should be looked at
        after that.



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