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Plante & Parent 1971

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  • nybos1974
    Can anyone tell me why Jacques Plante got the start in game 6 of the playoffs in 1971 against the Rangers instead of Bernie Parent? Plante started the first
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 7, 2008
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      Can anyone tell me why Jacques Plante got the start in game 6 of the
      playoffs in 1971 against the Rangers instead of Bernie Parent? Plante
      started the first game and played poorly. If I remember correctly,
      Parent had won his last 13 starts against New York and had played well
      in the series. So why didn't Parent start? Maybe a gut feeling or
      instinct came into play? Thanks.

      I'll have to do some digging through a few old newspapers.

      Jay in Milford
    • Lloyd Davis
      In the Toronto Star on April 14, Jim Proudfoot wrote that the Rangers had been targeting Bob Baun, who had missed the last six games of the 1970-71 season due
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 7, 2008
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        In the Toronto Star on April 14, Jim Proudfoot wrote that the Rangers
        had been targeting Bob Baun, who had missed the last six games of the
        1970-71 season due to neck and back injuries. He quoted Ted Irvine as
        saying "I think we're finally getting to Bobby Baun just a little
        bit," and "He's the guy we've got to go after, because he's the key
        to their defence." Bear in mind, the rest of the Leafs defence were
        fairly green.

        In the same day's Star, Red Burnett commented, "In the past, when
        Leafs faced a win-or-else obstacle, coach John McLellan called on
        goalie Jacques Plante, veteran miracle worker, to pull the team out
        of the skid.

        "On those occasions, however, Plante was replacing a shaky Bruce
        Gamble, now with Philadelphia Flyers. This time, he will be called on
        to improve on a brilliant Parent. And, goal was the one place Leafs
        looked respectable last night."

        "However, Plante has the knack of settling down Leafs' young
        defencemen. And, for this reason, one has to figure the veteran will
        get the assignment in this win-or-pack-up contest."

        In game 5, Ted Irvine scored 34 seconds into the first period. He was
        on the checking line, which Emile Francis started to neutralize the
        Henderson-Ullman-Ellis line. "[Parent] made three saves before Irvine
        sank his own rebound."

        Burnett wrote that the Rangers defence "played solid, clever hockey.
        They either sent their forwards away with quick, smooth passes or
        lugged the puck out of danger. By comparison, the Leaf defenders,
        with the exception of Baun, were guilty of too much stickhandling
        near their goal crease. This created havoc for Parent and anchored
        the forwards."

        The next day, Milt Dunnell of the Star wrote: "So what does McLellan
        hope to gain by making a change? It's strictly a psychological thing,
        professor. Now that the Rangers are congratulating themselves on
        getting rid of the Parent hex, which was a hangover from his days in
        Philadelphia, maybe Plante will throw them out of gear.

        "There is also the possibility that McLellan might be thinking of
        next season. He wouldn't want to send Jacques into summer quarters
        suffering from a suspicion that his services no longer are
        appreciated in these parts. ..."

        So we have a few possibilities which are not mutually exclusive: 1)
        that McLellan just wanted to throw something different at the
        Rangers; 2) that McLellan had a habit of turning to Plante in big
        games; 3) that Plante had a positive effect on a disorganized defence
        corps (a role Baun also played), and with him in net the Rangers
        might not get fourth chances the way they had against Parent in game 5.


        On 7-Aug-08, at 3:59 PM, nybos1974 wrote:

        > Can anyone tell me why Jacques Plante got the start in game 6 of the
        > playoffs in 1971 against the Rangers instead of Bernie Parent? Plante
        > started the first game and played poorly. If I remember correctly,
        > Parent had won his last 13 starts against New York and had played well
        > in the series. So why didn't Parent start? Maybe a gut feeling or
        > instinct came into play? Thanks.

        --
        Lloyd Davis
        ldaviseditor@...
        --
      • Lloyd Davis
        In the Toronto Star on April 14, Jim Proudfoot wrote that the Rangers had been targeting Bob Baun, who had missed the last six games of the 1970-71 season due
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 7, 2008
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          In the Toronto Star on April 14, Jim Proudfoot wrote that the Rangers
          had been targeting Bob Baun, who had missed the last six games of the
          1970-71 season due to neck and back injuries. He quoted Ted Irvine as
          saying "I think we're finally getting to Bobby Baun just a little
          bit," and "He's the guy we've got to go after, because he's the key
          to their defence." Bear in mind, the rest of the Leafs defence were
          fairly green.

          In the same day's Star, Red Burnett commented, "In the past, when
          Leafs faced a win-or-else obstacle, coach John McLellan called on
          goalie Jacques Plante, veteran miracle worker, to pull the team out
          of the skid.

          "On those occasions, however, Plante was replacing a shaky Bruce
          Gamble, now with Philadelphia Flyers. This time, he will be called on
          to improve on a brilliant Parent. And, goal was the one place Leafs
          looked respectable last night."

          "However, Plante has the knack of settling down Leafs' young
          defencemen. And, for this reason, one has to figure the veteran will
          get the assignment in this win-or-pack-up contest."

          In game 5, Ted Irvine scored 34 seconds into the first period. He was
          on the checking line, which Emile Francis started to neutralize the
          Henderson-Ullman-Ellis line. "[Parent] made three saves before Irvine
          sank his own rebound."

          Burnett wrote that the Rangers defence "played solid, clever hockey.
          They either sent their forwards away with quick, smooth passes or
          lugged the puck out of danger. By comparison, the Leaf defenders,
          with the exception of Baun, were guilty of too much stickhandling
          near their goal crease. This created havoc for Parent and anchored
          the forwards."

          The next day, Milt Dunnell of the Star wrote: "So what does McLellan
          hope to gain by making a change? It's strictly a psychological thing,
          professor. Now that the Rangers are congratulating themselves on
          getting rid of the Parent hex, which was a hangover from his days in
          Philadelphia, maybe Plante will throw them out of gear.

          "There is also the possibility that McLellan might be thinking of
          next season. He wouldn't want to send Jacques into summer quarters
          suffering from a suspicion that his services no longer are
          appreciated in these parts. ..."

          So we have a few possibilities which are not mutually exclusive: 1)
          that McLellan just wanted to throw something different at the
          Rangers; 2) that McLellan had a habit of turning to Plante in big
          games; 3) that Plante had a positive effect on a disorganized defence
          corps (a role Baun also played), and with him in net the Rangers
          might not get fourth chances the way they had against Parent in game 5.


          On 7-Aug-08, at 3:59 PM, nybos1974 wrote:

          > Can anyone tell me why Jacques Plante got the start in game 6 of the
          > playoffs in 1971 against the Rangers instead of Bernie Parent? Plante
          > started the first game and played poorly. If I remember correctly,
          > Parent had won his last 13 starts against New York and had played well
          > in the series. So why didn't Parent start? Maybe a gut feeling or
          > instinct came into play? Thanks.

          --
          Lloyd Davis
          ldaviseditor@...
          --
        • nybos1974
          Thanks Lloyd, that explains a lot. The New York papers didn t delve into this much and it was hard to know if it was a controversial decision or not at the
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 8, 2008
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            Thanks Lloyd, that explains a lot. The New York papers didn't delve
            into this much and it was hard to know if it was a controversial
            decision or not at the time. It may have been more controversial in
            Toronto, obviously.

            As for the defencemen, I thought Jim Dorey was playing well then and
            hadn't heard any complaints about him.

            Jay

            --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Lloyd Davis <ldaviseditor@...> wrote:
            >
            > In the Toronto Star on April 14, Jim Proudfoot wrote that the
            Rangers
            > had been targeting Bob Baun, who had missed the last six games of
            the
            > 1970-71 season due to neck and back injuries. He quoted Ted Irvine
            as
            > saying "I think we're finally getting to Bobby Baun just a little
            > bit," and "He's the guy we've got to go after, because he's the
            key
            > to their defence." Bear in mind, the rest of the Leafs defence
            were
            > fairly green.
            >
            > In the same day's Star, Red Burnett commented, "In the past, when
            > Leafs faced a win-or-else obstacle, coach John McLellan called on
            > goalie Jacques Plante, veteran miracle worker, to pull the team
            out
            > of the skid.
            >
            > "On those occasions, however, Plante was replacing a shaky Bruce
            > Gamble, now with Philadelphia Flyers. This time, he will be called
            on
            > to improve on a brilliant Parent. And, goal was the one place
            Leafs
            > looked respectable last night."
            >
            > "However, Plante has the knack of settling down Leafs' young
            > defencemen. And, for this reason, one has to figure the veteran
            will
            > get the assignment in this win-or-pack-up contest."
            >
            > In game 5, Ted Irvine scored 34 seconds into the first period. He
            was
            > on the checking line, which Emile Francis started to neutralize
            the
            > Henderson-Ullman-Ellis line. "[Parent] made three saves before
            Irvine
            > sank his own rebound."
            >
            > Burnett wrote that the Rangers defence "played solid, clever
            hockey.
            > They either sent their forwards away with quick, smooth passes or
            > lugged the puck out of danger. By comparison, the Leaf defenders,
            > with the exception of Baun, were guilty of too much stickhandling
            > near their goal crease. This created havoc for Parent and anchored
            > the forwards."
            >
            > The next day, Milt Dunnell of the Star wrote: "So what does
            McLellan
            > hope to gain by making a change? It's strictly a psychological
            thing,
            > professor. Now that the Rangers are congratulating themselves on
            > getting rid of the Parent hex, which was a hangover from his days
            in
            > Philadelphia, maybe Plante will throw them out of gear.
            >
            > "There is also the possibility that McLellan might be thinking of
            > next season. He wouldn't want to send Jacques into summer quarters
            > suffering from a suspicion that his services no longer are
            > appreciated in these parts. ..."
            >
            > So we have a few possibilities which are not mutually exclusive:
            1)
            > that McLellan just wanted to throw something different at the
            > Rangers; 2) that McLellan had a habit of turning to Plante in big
            > games; 3) that Plante had a positive effect on a disorganized
            defence
            > corps (a role Baun also played), and with him in net the Rangers
            > might not get fourth chances the way they had against Parent in
            game 5.
            >
            >
            > Lloyd Davis
            > ldaviseditor@...
            > --
            >
          • Lloyd Davis
            I don t think it was a controversial move at all. The Globe and Mail didn t mention the change at all. No knock on Dorey. Here s the defence the Leafs started
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 8, 2008
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              I don't think it was a controversial move at all. The Globe and Mail
              didn't mention the change at all.

              No knock on Dorey. Here's the defence the Leafs started 1970-71 with:

              Dorey, 23 years old, 107 NHL games.
              Glennie, 24 years old, 52 games.
              Ley, 22 years old, 86 games.
              McKenny, 24 years old, 93 games.
              Pelyk, 23 years old, 125 games.

              There was also Brad Selwood, 22, who had yet to play in the NHL.

              That's a decided experience gap. The lone veteran, Horton, had been
              traded.

              One of the things the Leafs sought from Plante when they acquired him
              was to instruct the defence. It's no secret that he had strong ideas
              about how he wanted his defencemen to play -- his style was rooted in
              his own frustration with a weak defence corps's inability to get the
              puck out of the defensive zone. The Star did make a comment about the
              Leafs defence trying to "stickhandle" too much in game four, rather
              than headmanning the puck.

              I don't think it's any surprise that, after acquiring Plante and Baun
              (who'd played more than 800 games), the Leafs went from ninth in
              goals against to sixth in 1970-71 and '71-72 -- with totals
              comparable to Boston and Montreal in those two seasons. These two
              players made that young defence corps look good.

              I don't note any explicit complaint about Dorey, but there were
              comments that Baun was the only Leaf defenceman hitting anyone in the
              series. Since Dorey's game was largely physical, perhaps he was being
              damned indirectly.


              On 8-Aug-08, at 5:14 AM, nybos1974 wrote:

              > Thanks Lloyd, that explains a lot. The New York papers didn't delve
              > into this much and it was hard to know if it was a controversial
              > decision or not at the time. It may have been more controversial in
              > Toronto, obviously.
              >
              > As for the defencemen, I thought Jim Dorey was playing well then and
              > hadn't heard any complaints about him.

              --
              Lloyd Davis
              Butterfield 8 Inc.
              19 Tennis Crescent, #6
              Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
              416 462 0230
              ldaviseditor@...
              --
            • James Benesh
              For what it s worth, Plante posted the highest single season sv% ever that season. The Leafs were allowing a lot of shots with that young defense, but either
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 8, 2008
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                For what it's worth, Plante posted the highest single season sv% ever that
                season. The Leafs were allowing a lot of shots with that young defense, but
                either the quality of shots was poor, or Plante gave the best regular season
                performance of all-time at age 43.

                James
              • goaliedave
                Lloyd, Your post made me recall another story that shows one way Plante found to create confidence for his young D. I think it was Mike Pelyk that told the
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 8, 2008
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                  Lloyd,

                  Your post made me recall another story that shows one way Plante found to create confidence for his young D.

                  I think it was Mike Pelyk that told the story years later. At Plante's first Leaf practice he had all the D line up at the blue line and fire shots at him. Plante deflected many of them behind him over the glass (there was no netting in those days of course). After 10 minutes or so of this seemingly pointless exercise, Pelyk asked Plante why he deflected so many over the glass. Plante's reply ... "those pucks were no good, they had chips in them." Plante's best ability was seeing the puck.

                  An unrelated note, I saw Ed Belfour's goalie coach demonstrate some unique "see the puck" drills once at a 'do' the Leafs put on for minor hockey coaches.

                  #1 - white pucks. He figured if the goalie can get used to seeing them come in, the black ones will be easy to pick up in traffic in a game.

                  #2 - swimming goggles with the eyes taped over. He figured if the goalie couldn't see, his body would memorize the movements needed to move around the crease on its own, and the goalie would become accustomed to the sounds of the game like a forward moving into position at the far post, etc. I guess it also made sure you weren't afraid of the puck.

                  Yup, us goalies are, in the polite words of Douglas Hunter, a breed apart.

                  Dave in Whitby


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Paul Patskou
                  It sure was controversial to the Leaf players. When we were filming our Leaf Classic Games shows, we aired a number of games from the 1970-71 season and 3
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 8, 2008
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                    It sure was controversial to the Leaf players.

                    When we were filming our Leaf Classic Games shows, we
                    aired a number of games from the 1970-71 season and 3
                    games from the '71 QF between the Leafs and Rangers.

                    Besides answering the questions we posed on air, the
                    players talked a lot off camera to us about that
                    series. The Leaf players questioned putting Plante in
                    net for that final game. At that time in 1971, Bernie
                    Parent hadn't established himself in the hockey world
                    as the star he was later to become. But even then, the
                    Leaf players had more confidence in Parent than
                    Plante.

                    Jacques Plante was not well liked by his Leaf
                    teammates and whether they were 'coached' by Plante is
                    very debatable. The players were aware that Plante
                    chose which games he would play in during the season,
                    often facing the less formidable opponents. Plante's
                    personality was also grating and the Leaf players
                    interviewed for our show remembered and told us some
                    of the frivolous demands made on Leaf management by
                    Plante throughout the year.

                    Why did John McLellan use Plante in that game? Coaches
                    almost always go the veteran in big games because of
                    the success those goalies had in the past. To Plante's
                    credit, he agreed to play and didn't play a bad game.

                    You just can't get this type of information by reading
                    newspapers, you have to be lucky enough to have the
                    players involved speak candidly to you.

                    I always say: The players know.

                    As far as Bob Baun goes, the Rangers did target Baun
                    in the series because he was the veteran who had
                    played in past playoff battles. The rest of the Leaf
                    defence were relatively inexperienced and were
                    mentored by Baun (not Plante). Baun was the type of
                    aggressive defenceman that all teams targetting at
                    that time. And Baun's battles with Vic Hadfield in the
                    series were also a result of an on-going feud they had
                    since the mid-60's. Baun was a courageous players who
                    backed down from no one.

                    Too bad this young Leaf team was broken up by
                    defections to the WHA.



                    --- Lloyd Davis <ldaviseditor@...> wrote:

                    > I don't think it was a controversial move at all.
                    > The Globe and Mail
                    > didn't mention the change at all.
                    >
                    > No knock on Dorey. Here's the defence the Leafs
                    > started 1970-71 with:
                    >
                    > Dorey, 23 years old, 107 NHL games.
                    > Glennie, 24 years old, 52 games.
                    > Ley, 22 years old, 86 games.
                    > McKenny, 24 years old, 93 games.
                    > Pelyk, 23 years old, 125 games.
                    >
                    > There was also Brad Selwood, 22, who had yet to play
                    > in the NHL.
                    >
                    > That's a decided experience gap. The lone veteran,
                    > Horton, had been
                    > traded.
                    >
                    > One of the things the Leafs sought from Plante when
                    > they acquired him
                    > was to instruct the defence. It's no secret that he
                    > had strong ideas
                    > about how he wanted his defencemen to play -- his
                    > style was rooted in
                    > his own frustration with a weak defence corps's
                    > inability to get the
                    > puck out of the defensive zone. The Star did make a
                    > comment about the
                    > Leafs defence trying to "stickhandle" too much in
                    > game four, rather
                    > than headmanning the puck.
                    >
                    > I don't think it's any surprise that, after
                    > acquiring Plante and Baun
                    > (who'd played more than 800 games), the Leafs went
                    > from ninth in
                    > goals against to sixth in 1970-71 and '71-72 -- with
                    > totals
                    > comparable to Boston and Montreal in those two
                    > seasons. These two
                    > players made that young defence corps look good.
                    >
                    > I don't note any explicit complaint about Dorey, but
                    > there were
                    > comments that Baun was the only Leaf defenceman
                    > hitting anyone in the
                    > series. Since Dorey's game was largely physical,
                    > perhaps he was being
                    > damned indirectly.
                    >
                    >
                    > On 8-Aug-08, at 5:14 AM, nybos1974 wrote:
                    >
                    > > Thanks Lloyd, that explains a lot. The New York
                    > papers didn't delve
                    > > into this much and it was hard to know if it was a
                    > controversial
                    > > decision or not at the time. It may have been
                    > more controversial in
                    > > Toronto, obviously.
                    > >
                    > > As for the defencemen, I thought Jim Dorey was
                    > playing well then and
                    > > hadn't heard any complaints about him.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Lloyd Davis
                    > Butterfield 8 Inc.
                    > 19 Tennis Crescent, #6
                    > Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
                    > 416 462 0230
                    > ldaviseditor@...
                    > --
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Swanrvr80@aol.com
                    Thanks for the insight, Paul. I ve also found the players many times will have a different take on things than what is in the print media. Jay In a message
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 9, 2008
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                      Thanks for the insight, Paul. I've also found the players many times will
                      have a different take on things than what is in the print media.

                      Jay

                      In a message dated 8/8/2008 9:14:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      Paul_Patskou@... writes:

                      You just can't get this type of information by reading
                      newspapers, you have to be lucky enough to have the
                      players involved speak candidly to you.

                      I always say: The players know.







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                    • Swanrvr80@aol.com
                      Thanks, Lloyd. It s an interesting point about Dorey, especially since he did have such a physical game. Jay In a message dated 8/8/2008 11:57:54 AM Eastern
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 9, 2008
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                        Thanks, Lloyd. It's an interesting point about Dorey, especially since he
                        did have such a physical game.

                        Jay

                        In a message dated 8/8/2008 11:57:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        ldaviseditor@... writes:

                        I don't note any explicit complaint about Dorey, but there were
                        comments that Baun was the only Leaf defenceman hitting anyone in the
                        series. Since Dorey's game was largely physical, perhaps he was being
                        damned indirectly.







                        **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                        Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                        (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


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