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Re: Basketball HOF vs Hockey HOF (was: Recognition for hockey's fem

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  • craig_1965ca
    Chantel, Thanks for the kind words. Your situation was exactly what I saw growing up. Many of my friends liked hockey and would have loved to play. And with
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 1, 2008
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      Chantel,

      Thanks for the kind words.

      Your situation was exactly what I saw growing up. Many of my friends
      liked hockey and would have loved to play. And with one execption (a
      very small league in the city where I lived that to be honest wasn't
      very good either and no longer exists)they could not. There was no
      girls leagues - I guess it wasn't considered "feminine" for girls to
      play hockey at the time. I played in that before mentioned league and
      we did have a female player by the name of Karen. She was a wonderful
      skater, handled the puck well and played physically. She was our best
      center and yet after playing the 1975-76 season with us she was too
      old to stay in the league and no other league would take her as she
      was a girl. That was my first experience with discrimination and it
      has stuck with me. I don't like people getting "screwed" and that is
      what happened in the past.

      Bill makes many excellent points when he points out the many
      desearving men who are not in the HHOF. However I do believe that
      with the growth of the World Championships and Olympics and female
      hockey across the world that the HHOF should create a seperate female
      category. That way there is no perception of a fmeale taking a male
      spot in the hall. They would be totally seperate and distinct.

      Craig



      --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "Chantel" <chantel66@...> wrote:
      >
      > Craig -
      >
      >
      >
      > You said it far more eloquently than I could. My comments come from
      growing
      > up in Michigan and being denied the pleasure of playing hockey,
      even with my
      > cousins, because of my gender. So, I have channeled that love of
      the game
      > into research and watching the game. If I had lived in Ontario,
      maybe things
      > would have been different, thanks to women like her.
      >
      >
      >
      > Chantel
      >
      >
      >
      > From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf
      > Of craig_1965ca
      > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:43 PM
      > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [hockhist] Re: Basketball HOF vs Hockey HOF (was:
      Recognition for
      > hockey's fem
      >
      >
      >
      > Chantel,
      >
      > I agree with you 100% here. Just to emphasize I am reposting a note
      I
      > put out on Christmas Eve that I thought (perhaps wrongly) summed
      things
      > up fairly well.
      >
      > Craig
      >
      > Bill,
      >
      > Let me approach this in a slightly different way. First your points
      > are all quite valid when you speak about people like Bill Hunter,
      > Dave Branch, etc and the sacrifices many men have made to grow the
      > game in both the US and Canada. Nobody could argue that with you.
      >
      > But looking back at Fran Rider we need to ask ourselves an important
      > question. What was the status or "shape" of women's hockey before
      she
      > got involved and what is the status of it now? Let's think about
      > that. When I was growing up there were no girls leagues. My friends
      > had no place that they could play hockey - if they wanted to.
      > Talented girls where banned in many cases from playing with boys -
      > not becouse they were not good enough - all becouse of their gender.
      > One team I played with when I was 11 had a very talented female
      > player - she was the best center on our team. But the next year her
      > playing days were over all because she was female - no league would
      > allow her to play with boys and there was no female league for her
      to
      > play in.
      >
      > Due to people like Fran Rider that has changed. There are many girls
      > leagues out there. Women now have their own World Championships and
      > play in the Olympics. All this has been done in a period of 30 odd
      > years. The sport has exploded to incompass the other half of the
      > human race. Bill, that is an amazing feat - one that is surely as
      > prominent and worthy of recognition in the Hall of Fame as any other
      > builder.
      >
      > We cannot compare womens' and mens' hockey nor should we. I agree
      > with you - have a seperate category but it is time that women's
      > hockey is fully recognized in the Hall with their builders, stars,
      > etc. After all it is not the "NHL Hall of Fame" - it is the "Hockey
      > Hall of Fame." (Before you mention it I agree with you that it is
      > appalling that so many European stars have been passed over by the
      > Hall.)
      >
      > Craig
      >
      > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%
      40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > "Chantel Cummings" <chantel66@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > So what ARE the requirements to get into the hall in your
      opinion? Can
      > > you honestly say that players from the 1930s or 1950s are at the
      same
      > > skill level as today's players? What about how much the game has
      > > changed over time? The changes implemented, from new teams to the
      > > instigator penalty, have all changed the game exponentially. All
      these
      > > posts are comparing apples and oranges. Since there are already
      > > different criteria for entry - player, builder, official,
      announcer -
      > > I don't see the problem. Cammi Granato may not have been one of
      the
      > > greatest players in the game, but she and Hayley Wickenheiser
      > > certainly opened up the game to girls and women. For that alone -
      > > making a valuable contribution to the game - I would say they
      merit
      > > entry to the hall.
      > >
      > > Chantel Cummings
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • epenaltybox
      For what it s worth, my home rinks (sic) in Escondido, California, (home to 0 NHL and 0 minor league teams - Ducks are about 70 miles away) has had a women s
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 1, 2008
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        For what it's worth, my home rinks (sic) in Escondido, California,
        (home to 0 NHL and 0 minor league teams - Ducks are about 70 miles
        away) has had a women's league for about eight years (Tuesday nights).

        Morey

        --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "craig_1965ca" <bflynn3@...> wrote:
        >
        > Chantel,
        >
        > Thanks for the kind words.
        >
        > Your situation was exactly what I saw growing up. Many of my
        friends
        > liked hockey and would have loved to play. And with one execption
        (a
        > very small league in the city where I lived that to be honest
        wasn't
        > very good either and no longer exists)they could not. There was no
        > girls leagues - I guess it wasn't considered "feminine" for girls
        to
        > play hockey at the time. I played in that before mentioned league
        and
        > we did have a female player by the name of Karen. She was a
        wonderful
        > skater, handled the puck well and played physically. She was our
        best
        > center and yet after playing the 1975-76 season with us she was too
        > old to stay in the league and no other league would take her as she
        > was a girl. That was my first experience with discrimination and it
        > has stuck with me. I don't like people getting "screwed" and that
        is
        > what happened in the past.
        >
        > Bill makes many excellent points when he points out the many
        > desearving men who are not in the HHOF. However I do believe that
        > with the growth of the World Championships and Olympics and female
        > hockey across the world that the HHOF should create a seperate
        female
        > category. That way there is no perception of a fmeale taking a male
        > spot in the hall. They would be totally seperate and distinct.
        >
        > Craig
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "Chantel" <chantel66@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Craig -
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > You said it far more eloquently than I could. My comments come
        from
        > growing
        > > up in Michigan and being denied the pleasure of playing hockey,
        > even with my
        > > cousins, because of my gender. So, I have channeled that love of
        > the game
        > > into research and watching the game. If I had lived in Ontario,
        > maybe things
        > > would have been different, thanks to women like her.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Chantel
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com]
        On
        > Behalf
        > > Of craig_1965ca
        > > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:43 PM
        > > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [hockhist] Re: Basketball HOF vs Hockey HOF (was:
        > Recognition for
        > > hockey's fem
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Chantel,
        > >
        > > I agree with you 100% here. Just to emphasize I am reposting a
        note
        > I
        > > put out on Christmas Eve that I thought (perhaps wrongly) summed
        > things
        > > up fairly well.
        > >
        > > Craig
        > >
        > > Bill,
        > >
        > > Let me approach this in a slightly different way. First your
        points
        > > are all quite valid when you speak about people like Bill Hunter,
        > > Dave Branch, etc and the sacrifices many men have made to grow the
        > > game in both the US and Canada. Nobody could argue that with you.
        > >
        > > But looking back at Fran Rider we need to ask ourselves an
        important
        > > question. What was the status or "shape" of women's hockey before
        > she
        > > got involved and what is the status of it now? Let's think about
        > > that. When I was growing up there were no girls leagues. My
        friends
        > > had no place that they could play hockey - if they wanted to.
        > > Talented girls where banned in many cases from playing with boys -
        > > not becouse they were not good enough - all becouse of their
        gender.
        > > One team I played with when I was 11 had a very talented female
        > > player - she was the best center on our team. But the next year
        her
        > > playing days were over all because she was female - no league
        would
        > > allow her to play with boys and there was no female league for
        her
        > to
        > > play in.
        > >
        > > Due to people like Fran Rider that has changed. There are many
        girls
        > > leagues out there. Women now have their own World Championships
        and
        > > play in the Olympics. All this has been done in a period of 30 odd
        > > years. The sport has exploded to incompass the other half of the
        > > human race. Bill, that is an amazing feat - one that is surely as
        > > prominent and worthy of recognition in the Hall of Fame as any
        other
        > > builder.
        > >
        > > We cannot compare womens' and mens' hockey nor should we. I agree
        > > with you - have a seperate category but it is time that women's
        > > hockey is fully recognized in the Hall with their builders, stars,
        > > etc. After all it is not the "NHL Hall of Fame" - it is
        the "Hockey
        > > Hall of Fame." (Before you mention it I agree with you that it is
        > > appalling that so many European stars have been passed over by the
        > > Hall.)
        > >
        > > Craig
        > >
        > > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%
        > 40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > > "Chantel Cummings" <chantel66@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > So what ARE the requirements to get into the hall in your
        > opinion? Can
        > > > you honestly say that players from the 1930s or 1950s are at
        the
        > same
        > > > skill level as today's players? What about how much the game has
        > > > changed over time? The changes implemented, from new teams to
        the
        > > > instigator penalty, have all changed the game exponentially.
        All
        > these
        > > > posts are comparing apples and oranges. Since there are already
        > > > different criteria for entry - player, builder, official,
        > announcer -
        > > > I don't see the problem. Cammi Granato may not have been one of
        > the
        > > > greatest players in the game, but she and Hayley Wickenheiser
        > > > certainly opened up the game to girls and women. For that
        alone -
        > > > making a valuable contribution to the game - I would say they
        > merit
        > > > entry to the hall.
        > > >
        > > > Chantel Cummings
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • Chantel
        Exactly! Since there are already separate categories, what would it hurt to add one more? Times change. The game has changed. The HHOF needs to change with it.
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Exactly! Since there are already separate categories, what would it hurt to
          add one more? Times change. The game has changed. The HHOF needs to change
          with it.



          Chantel



          From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of craig_1965ca
          Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 8:20 AM
          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hockhist] Re: Basketball HOF vs Hockey HOF (was: Recognition for
          hockey's fem



          Chantel,

          Thanks for the kind words.

          Your situation was exactly what I saw growing up. Many of my friends
          liked hockey and would have loved to play. And with one execption (a
          very small league in the city where I lived that to be honest wasn't
          very good either and no longer exists)they could not. There was no
          girls leagues - I guess it wasn't considered "feminine" for girls to
          play hockey at the time. I played in that before mentioned league and
          we did have a female player by the name of Karen. She was a wonderful
          skater, handled the puck well and played physically. She was our best
          center and yet after playing the 1975-76 season with us she was too
          old to stay in the league and no other league would take her as she
          was a girl. That was my first experience with discrimination and it
          has stuck with me. I don't like people getting "screwed" and that is
          what happened in the past.

          Bill makes many excellent points when he points out the many
          desearving men who are not in the HHOF. However I do believe that
          with the growth of the World Championships and Olympics and female
          hockey across the world that the HHOF should create a seperate female
          category. That way there is no perception of a fmeale taking a male
          spot in the hall. They would be totally seperate and distinct.

          Craig


          --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          "Chantel" <chantel66@...> wrote:
          >
          > Craig -
          >
          >
          >
          > You said it far more eloquently than I could. My comments come from
          growing
          > up in Michigan and being denied the pleasure of playing hockey,
          even with my
          > cousins, because of my gender. So, I have channeled that love of
          the game
          > into research and watching the game. If I had lived in Ontario,
          maybe things
          > would have been different, thanks to women like her.
          >
          >
          >
          > Chantel
          >
          >
          >
          > From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
          Behalf
          > Of craig_1965ca
          > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:43 PM
          > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [hockhist] Re: Basketball HOF vs Hockey HOF (was:
          Recognition for
          > hockey's fem
          >
          >
          >
          > Chantel,
          >
          > I agree with you 100% here. Just to emphasize I am reposting a note
          I
          > put out on Christmas Eve that I thought (perhaps wrongly) summed
          things
          > up fairly well.
          >
          > Craig
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > Let me approach this in a slightly different way. First your points
          > are all quite valid when you speak about people like Bill Hunter,
          > Dave Branch, etc and the sacrifices many men have made to grow the
          > game in both the US and Canada. Nobody could argue that with you.
          >
          > But looking back at Fran Rider we need to ask ourselves an important
          > question. What was the status or "shape" of women's hockey before
          she
          > got involved and what is the status of it now? Let's think about
          > that. When I was growing up there were no girls leagues. My friends
          > had no place that they could play hockey - if they wanted to.
          > Talented girls where banned in many cases from playing with boys -
          > not becouse they were not good enough - all becouse of their gender.
          > One team I played with when I was 11 had a very talented female
          > player - she was the best center on our team. But the next year her
          > playing days were over all because she was female - no league would
          > allow her to play with boys and there was no female league for her
          to
          > play in.
          >
          > Due to people like Fran Rider that has changed. There are many girls
          > leagues out there. Women now have their own World Championships and
          > play in the Olympics. All this has been done in a period of 30 odd
          > years. The sport has exploded to incompass the other half of the
          > human race. Bill, that is an amazing feat - one that is surely as
          > prominent and worthy of recognition in the Hall of Fame as any other
          > builder.
          >
          > We cannot compare womens' and mens' hockey nor should we. I agree
          > with you - have a seperate category but it is time that women's
          > hockey is fully recognized in the Hall with their builders, stars,
          > etc. After all it is not the "NHL Hall of Fame" - it is the "Hockey
          > Hall of Fame." (Before you mention it I agree with you that it is
          > appalling that so many European stars have been passed over by the
          > Hall.)
          >
          > Craig
          >
          > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hockhist%40yahoogroups.com>
          <mailto:hockhist%
          40yahoogroups.com> ,
          > "Chantel Cummings" <chantel66@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > So what ARE the requirements to get into the hall in your
          opinion? Can
          > > you honestly say that players from the 1930s or 1950s are at the
          same
          > > skill level as today's players? What about how much the game has
          > > changed over time? The changes implemented, from new teams to the
          > > instigator penalty, have all changed the game exponentially. All
          these
          > > posts are comparing apples and oranges. Since there are already
          > > different criteria for entry - player, builder, official,
          announcer -
          > > I don't see the problem. Cammi Granato may not have been one of
          the
          > > greatest players in the game, but she and Hayley Wickenheiser
          > > certainly opened up the game to girls and women. For that alone -
          > > making a valuable contribution to the game - I would say they
          merit
          > > entry to the hall.
          > >
          > > Chantel Cummings
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • William Underwood
          Chantel my standards are simple. For players.you should be proven to be among the BEST players of your era. That is could you play in a league of the greats
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Chantel my standards are simple.



            For players.you should be proven to be among the BEST players of your era.
            That is could you play in a league of the greats for your era and excel in
            it. And this carries over nom matter what the size of the league.of a modern
            player could not play in a modern 6 team NHL he has no place and add on if
            he would not star in it he has no place. I can say two things about players
            form the past.



            1-If we teleported them to today meaning AT BIRTH, those players would have
            been bigger, due to nutrition and simple evolution, they would have had
            modern training and equipment. Simply put they had a certain talent index
            and most of the difference you speak are less products of talent than the
            science of training of their day.

            2-A Hall can only elect players from the past not the future. Hence unless
            we purge it every few years and lose a sense of history we really can't help
            but to have players from previous eras.



            Plus your apples and oranges have a standardized link.the NHL or hockey
            where we have good reason to say was close if not equal, was the player good
            enough to play and excel in it? That level is the constant as is talent.
            Therefore we do have two standards to work with through the ages. The rules
            DO change but how many HOF bound players will be effected? The instigator
            penalty has had an impact on goons. How many of them are in the HOF? A truly
            HOF type of player can adapt to rule changes as the true superstar is
            expected to do. Rule changes do not have a big impact on true HOF material!



            Now if we are talking about different TYPES of entry you are right! And
            women stand a better chance in that context. But there are still standards
            there. Yes the women have attracted a number of girls to the game. But is
            that number even close to say the founders of Russian hockey? Top junior
            execs? Or even youth founders such as the founders of the Toronto or Boston
            Met Leagues or, for that matter the local Met League here. Add up all of the
            boys how have played even in our Met League organizations over the past 40
            odd years and it is a HIGHER number than female registration in the past
            ten! And we are DWARFED by Toronto or Boston! So tell me why their merit
            rates better than these people who have actually drawn more people into the
            game and had a greater impact? And what of minor pro people like the ECHL
            founders.hockey may have died in a quarter of the continent if not for them
            giving the game a presence in a league that not only draws millions a year
            but also has helped to inspire southern kids to play. And I am starting to
            see some of them dot legitimate rosters.and you will some in the NHL. What
            of Maryland people.they have kept amateur hockey down there going for
            decades! And quite honestly there are a half dozen DC area kids who are
            really legit now.Why do women rate a butt into line ahead of them even if
            they are not going in as players?



            You say that the women have attracted girls but I can say that Bill Hunter
            helped boys as his WCHL helped to make BC a hockey hot bed.southern kids can
            say "if not for Henry Brabham there would be no ECHL and I would never have
            played." We can say the same of every NHL southern franchise.they have
            brought players into the game.And we won't even get into the men who made
            European hockey what it is now.none of them are in so why should the women
            get in first?



            The challenge is there.get numbers and wait in line then they may gain
            merit. But right now they have not been stuck in line as ling as others and
            they have not brought enough people into jump ahead.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Underwood
            I have NO problem with a separate section Chantal. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 2, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              I have NO problem with a separate section Chantal.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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