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Re:Affiliations

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  • epenaltybox
    ... days. Now ... level.that is ... The first case that I have found, where it was openly a borrowed player, was with the Vancouver Maroons in 1922. Vancouver
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 12, 2007
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      > Yes Morey that is a good point, NHL clubs did loan guys in the old
      days. Now
      > I am not so sure that this didn't have its roots at the senior
      level.that is
      > a VERY good question! Who started it?


      The first case that I have found, where it was openly a borrowed
      player, was with the Vancouver Maroons in 1922. Vancouver goalie Hugh
      Lehman was stuck in Ontario and could get leave from his job until
      December 1, which was what his agreement was every year. In 1922,
      Frank Patrick decided the season should open up early in November. The
      WCHL started in December, as per tradition (and the weather, all the
      WCHL rinks were natural ice surfaces). Patrick asked permission to
      borrow Calgary goalie Charlie Reid until December 1, and was granted.
      Reid went 1-4 as the Maroons stumbled out of the gate. Lehman caught
      his train as per the usual time, and Reid hightailed it to Calgary. If
      memory serves me, Reid worked the off-season in Spokane, so it was not
      a overly cumbersome to go to Vancouver for a couple of weeks.

      Morey
    • Seth Lerman
      Hi Morey, How are you? It has been awhile. I was recently looking at the rosters of the Syracuse Stars, and I noticed that many of the players played or were
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 13, 2007
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        Hi Morey,

        How are you? It has been awhile. I was recently looking at the rosters of the Syracuse Stars, and I noticed that many of the players played or were owned by the Maple Leafs, including Gord Drillon, Phil Stein, and Max Bennett, while others were owned or played for the Americans, including Jack Keating and Gord Kuhn. The uniforms are replicas of the New York Americans. Where the Stars an American's farm team that accepted players on loan from the Leafs, or were they independently owned with affiliations with both clubs?

        I also read in Gene Kiczek's book on the Barons that the Barons primarily used Minneapolis as a farm team, but they also owned the rights to many junior and senior players. What I find confusing is why would a player sign a "C" form with a minor league club when many NHL clubs were sponsoring players and teams? It seems as if a lot of good players were blocked from the NHL for years because the minor league teams owned their rights. And did the AHL use a "C" form or was that strictly an NHL deal?

        Seth

        epenaltybox <epenaltybox@...> wrote:
        Hi Seth,

        Hope all is well - it's been awhile. I've noticed the same
        patterns. Chicago had a relationship with St. Louis of the AHA, and
        later, USHL. Detroit owned Omaha. Toronto and Montreal started the
        underage signings of the junior kids. New York owned the Rovers, and
        the Bruins owned the Cubs (althought the official name is the Boston
        Bruin Cubs Hockey Club.)

        I'm still sorting out the pieces and changes. The Black Hawks would
        not have owned anything - they were one step ahead of the Repo Man.
        I'm looking into the sale of the Black Hawks from Tobin to
        Norris/Wirtz. It has just came to my attention that Norris/Wirtz
        were the Black Hawks' landlord since the late 1930s.

        Montreal had that great city league. I suspected they used Buffalo
        when they couldn't hide players in the heavily-scouted seniors. They
        also tended (but not 100%) to keep French speaking players in Quebec.

        Toronto had Hollywood in the PCHL and Pittsburgh in the AHL for
        awhile, and the pulled out. You start to see more and more Leafs of
        the 50s coming out of the Marlies program in the Senior OHA.

        Detroit pulled out of Omaha and jumped into Edmonton. Best move they
        ever made, if the names Ullman, Hall, Bucyk mean anything.

        Morey
        --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Seth Lerman <splhockey@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am in the process of researching minor league affiliations of NHL
        teams from the twenties to the present, and I have some questions.
        First of all, many of the AHL teams in ther forties were independent,
        save for Indianpolis who were owned by the Red Wings; however, many
        of these teams had NHL-signed players on their rosters. Where these
        players on loan? Or did the NHL teams have partial affiliations. For
        example, Hershey had several players owned by the Boston Bruins on
        their rosters, but the Bruins primary affiliate was the Boston
        Olympics of the Eastern League - even though the Olympics were
        considered to be semi pro. Buffalo featured many Canadiens, and
        Providence had several Blackhawks. Can anyone clarify the
        relationship between the NHL and the minor leagues from this era? I
        appreciate any help.
        >
        > Seth
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        >
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        >






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      • William Underwood
        The Barons at the time were trying to move into the NHL and came VERY close to getting there! Now the C Form was an NHL phenomenon. It was an NHL contract and
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 14, 2007
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          The Barons at the time were trying to move into the NHL and came VERY close
          to getting there!



          Now the C Form was an NHL phenomenon. It was an NHL contract and actually
          was not as draconian as it seems. First of all players had to be 18 just
          like today. That is DIRECTLY from the NHL Official book about the six team
          league and a section by the old director of the central registry who oversaw
          this stuff and how the rules existed as of the end of sponsorship in the
          60's. Now an NHL club COULD own you prior to that by signing you to a junior
          card with a sponsored team AND putting you on their 18 man protected list
          per top level affiliate which is where the NHL system comes under the image
          of "signing you at 12." IF you were with an affiliate they could technically
          list you before 18. Simply put.if I was an NHL club with 4 clubs who gave me
          via working agreement their two junior slots I could sponsor 10 teams and
          would get the rights to 30 subsidiary organizations (they could be entire
          youth hockey leagues) under them. But I could only PROTECT from all of those
          clubs 18 at any given moment! So I see a 14 year old phenom, I could own his
          rights by listing him with a sponsored club IF I protected him at the price
          of a player who is already ON the team who I now don't own and is a free
          agent. You see more of this than meets the eye. Al Hamilton was an Edmonton
          Oil King (Detroit) but ended up signing with the Rangers!



          Each pro team could have two amateur affiliates at ANY level and for each of
          them three subsidiary lower level teams. Hence NHL teams would sign working
          agreements whereby the minor pro club would cede the rights to the NHL club.
          BUT should the NHL team not take that player sometimes the MINOR pro rights
          would go to that club if so stipulated. Now as to whom a player might end up
          with a minor pro team.the NHL sponsored the OHA junior A clubs which is
          where most of the best prospects congregated. There were only 8 teams hence
          they also ate up the best Western and Quebec teams like the Montreal Royals
          of the 40',/50's and later on the Edmonton Oil Kings. So if a club like
          Cleveland had an independent sponsorship odds are it was with a team in the
          NOHA or some other less than top league. So say you were like Ralph
          Backstrom, a kid in a backwater area.odds are one of the NHL teams nab you
          before you ever end up in the NOHA! Keep in mind the Leafs could put you on
          the Marlies or a Marlie affiliate at 15 giving them first crack at you! IF
          they didn't list you, you would be a free agent. Ted Lindsay and Red Kelly
          BOTH played for St Mikes but ended up Red Wings! Lindsay they flat out blew
          it on by not keeping him listed! Brad Park would also be lost once the
          amateur draft went into play.he was a guy who they COULD have protected and
          kept, he was in the Marlie chain before sponsorship ended but they BLEW IT!
          But IF they listed you and odds are they would if they were going through
          that much trouble you were Leaf property for whom the next step would be to
          be signed to the C Form at 18 and then to a pro deal.



          But say you were from a back water area and no NHL club came knocking? You
          may just end up with a minor pro owned team in the old days. And then you
          would have to hope that you got sold or, later on with the Inter League
          Draft, drafted from that team. But the NHL didn't miss a ton of guys.Usually
          the better minor pros ended up owned by minor pro teams because NHL teams
          traded or sold them to them or, ignored by the NHL, they started out in
          senior or the lower minors and were signed by a minor pro team. Now NHL
          teams made mistakes and gave up on guys early.remember Johnny Bower was
          originally a Ranger sent to the Barons for another player and cash then
          gotten by the Leafs in the Inter League Draft. Ed Giacomin who grew up in a
          non sponsored system, went to the low minors (actually in place of his
          brother who backed out of his try out), played well there, was signed by
          Providence and traded after 4 plus years to the Rangers for 4 minor pro
          players! Wayne Connelly was sold and bought back from Frisco by the Bruins.
          Jack McCartan, the 1960 US Olympic hero was sold by the Rangers to LA of the
          WHL although it was called "traded for cash". Guyle Fielder was originally
          Black Hawk property but was a microcosm of the system..he was loaned to New
          Westminster for cash, NHL rights traded to Detroit by Chicago with 2 other
          players for cash, claimed on waivers by the Rangers, traded to Seattle for a
          player, rights sold to Boston, claimed from Boston in the Inter League Draft
          by Seattle, NHL rights traded to Detroit for cash by Boston at the same
          time, claimed by Toronto in Inter League Draft refused to report and
          remained Seattle property.Guys would outlive their usefulness as a prospect
          (or so it seemed) and they would be dealt to minor pro clubs for money or
          players who those clubs owned. But not a ton came up through a minor pro
          sponsored teams a we drifted into the late 50's.



          Now before as I'm sure that Morey can confirm it was at items like early
          baseball where you would come up with a minor pro club and get sold or
          traded FAR more often than later as the sponsorship system became more
          complex and the hockey would became more vertically integrated into the NHL
          chain. And there were more misses.remember up until the mid 1920's the NHL
          was not the only major league and the minor pro system as we know it BEGAN
          in the pre war era but really did not evolve until post war over about the
          next ten years. Senior Hockey still was quite powerful and minor league more
          independently inclined.keep in mind the AHL actually torpedoed the NHL
          coming to Philly right after the war with threats of an anti trust action!
          By the time we reached 1965 the NHL not only could care less about the AHL
          they actually more or less screwed the WHL owners (who had threatened to
          rebel just a year and half before) when they were taking expansion
          applications for 1967. The NHL was not what was in 1967 back then. Top
          seniors got good money.more than most minor pro players well into the early
          50's. For some guys staying down made more sense.even Fielder who was well
          paid in Seattle and liked it out there said no to the Leafs in the end. Jean
          Beliveau was paid what was considered BIG money to stay in Quebec for two
          more years. Herb Carnegie turned the Rangers down when they told him he had
          to start in the minors and he stayed in senior. It was a different era!
          Simply put you might make MORE money by NOT going into an NHL chain at
          times.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Seth Lerman
          William, Thank you for the information. That explains a lot of what was happening in the six-team NHL and the AHL in regards to player signings. Seth William
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 14, 2007
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            William,

            Thank you for the information. That explains a lot of what was happening in the six-team NHL and the AHL in regards to player signings.

            Seth

            William Underwood <wausport@...> wrote:
            The Barons at the time were trying to move into the NHL and came VERY close
            to getting there!

            Now the C Form was an NHL phenomenon. It was an NHL contract and actually
            was not as draconian as it seems. First of all players had to be 18 just
            like today. That is DIRECTLY from the NHL Official book about the six team
            league and a section by the old director of the central registry who oversaw
            this stuff and how the rules existed as of the end of sponsorship in the
            60's. Now an NHL club COULD own you prior to that by signing you to a junior
            card with a sponsored team AND putting you on their 18 man protected list
            per top level affiliate which is where the NHL system comes under the image
            of "signing you at 12." IF you were with an affiliate they could technically
            list you before 18. Simply put.if I was an NHL club with 4 clubs who gave me
            via working agreement their two junior slots I could sponsor 10 teams and
            would get the rights to 30 subsidiary organizations (they could be entire
            youth hockey leagues) under them. But I could only PROTECT from all of those
            clubs 18 at any given moment! So I see a 14 year old phenom, I could own his
            rights by listing him with a sponsored club IF I protected him at the price
            of a player who is already ON the team who I now don't own and is a free
            agent. You see more of this than meets the eye. Al Hamilton was an Edmonton
            Oil King (Detroit) but ended up signing with the Rangers!

            Each pro team could have two amateur affiliates at ANY level and for each of
            them three subsidiary lower level teams. Hence NHL teams would sign working
            agreements whereby the minor pro club would cede the rights to the NHL club.
            BUT should the NHL team not take that player sometimes the MINOR pro rights
            would go to that club if so stipulated. Now as to whom a player might end up
            with a minor pro team.the NHL sponsored the OHA junior A clubs which is
            where most of the best prospects congregated. There were only 8 teams hence
            they also ate up the best Western and Quebec teams like the Montreal Royals
            of the 40',/50's and later on the Edmonton Oil Kings. So if a club like
            Cleveland had an independent sponsorship odds are it was with a team in the
            NOHA or some other less than top league. So say you were like Ralph
            Backstrom, a kid in a backwater area.odds are one of the NHL teams nab you
            before you ever end up in the NOHA! Keep in mind the Leafs could put you on
            the Marlies or a Marlie affiliate at 15 giving them first crack at you! IF
            they didn't list you, you would be a free agent. Ted Lindsay and Red Kelly
            BOTH played for St Mikes but ended up Red Wings! Lindsay they flat out blew
            it on by not keeping him listed! Brad Park would also be lost once the
            amateur draft went into play.he was a guy who they COULD have protected and
            kept, he was in the Marlie chain before sponsorship ended but they BLEW IT!
            But IF they listed you and odds are they would if they were going through
            that much trouble you were Leaf property for whom the next step would be to
            be signed to the C Form at 18 and then to a pro deal.

            But say you were from a back water area and no NHL club came knocking? You
            may just end up with a minor pro owned team in the old days. And then you
            would have to hope that you got sold or, later on with the Inter League
            Draft, drafted from that team. But the NHL didn't miss a ton of guys.Usually
            the better minor pros ended up owned by minor pro teams because NHL teams
            traded or sold them to them or, ignored by the NHL, they started out in
            senior or the lower minors and were signed by a minor pro team. Now NHL
            teams made mistakes and gave up on guys early.remember Johnny Bower was
            originally a Ranger sent to the Barons for another player and cash then
            gotten by the Leafs in the Inter League Draft. Ed Giacomin who grew up in a
            non sponsored system, went to the low minors (actually in place of his
            brother who backed out of his try out), played well there, was signed by
            Providence and traded after 4 plus years to the Rangers for 4 minor pro
            players! Wayne Connelly was sold and bought back from Frisco by the Bruins.
            Jack McCartan, the 1960 US Olympic hero was sold by the Rangers to LA of the
            WHL although it was called "traded for cash". Guyle Fielder was originally
            Black Hawk property but was a microcosm of the system..he was loaned to New
            Westminster for cash, NHL rights traded to Detroit by Chicago with 2 other
            players for cash, claimed on waivers by the Rangers, traded to Seattle for a
            player, rights sold to Boston, claimed from Boston in the Inter League Draft
            by Seattle, NHL rights traded to Detroit for cash by Boston at the same
            time, claimed by Toronto in Inter League Draft refused to report and
            remained Seattle property.Guys would outlive their usefulness as a prospect
            (or so it seemed) and they would be dealt to minor pro clubs for money or
            players who those clubs owned. But not a ton came up through a minor pro
            sponsored teams a we drifted into the late 50's.

            Now before as I'm sure that Morey can confirm it was at items like early
            baseball where you would come up with a minor pro club and get sold or
            traded FAR more often than later as the sponsorship system became more
            complex and the hockey would became more vertically integrated into the NHL
            chain. And there were more misses.remember up until the mid 1920's the NHL
            was not the only major league and the minor pro system as we know it BEGAN
            in the pre war era but really did not evolve until post war over about the
            next ten years. Senior Hockey still was quite powerful and minor league more
            independently inclined.keep in mind the AHL actually torpedoed the NHL
            coming to Philly right after the war with threats of an anti trust action!
            By the time we reached 1965 the NHL not only could care less about the AHL
            they actually more or less screwed the WHL owners (who had threatened to
            rebel just a year and half before) when they were taking expansion
            applications for 1967. The NHL was not what was in 1967 back then. Top
            seniors got good money.more than most minor pro players well into the early
            50's. For some guys staying down made more sense.even Fielder who was well
            paid in Seattle and liked it out there said no to the Leafs in the end. Jean
            Beliveau was paid what was considered BIG money to stay in Quebec for two
            more years. Herb Carnegie turned the Rangers down when they told him he had
            to start in the minors and he stayed in senior. It was a different era!
            Simply put you might make MORE money by NOT going into an NHL chain at
            times.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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          • Jason Kasiorek
            Morey, Seth, and others, I have been working in the same realm lately doing research on the farm clubs of the Detroit Red Wings over the years. It certainly is
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 21, 2007
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              Morey, Seth, and others,

              I have been working in the same realm lately doing research on the farm
              clubs of the Detroit Red Wings over the years. It certainly is a tangled
              mess of affiliations, partial affiliations, sponsorships and working
              agreements. Here is what I have so far for Detroit:

              http://www.griffinscentral.com/hist/histfarm.html




              Jason Kasiorek
              WHA Oilers Site
              http://www.homeoftheoilers.orgfree.com


              From: "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@...>
              Subject: [hockhist] Re: Affiliations






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Seth Lerman
              Jason: Thank you very much for that info. Seth Jason Kasiorek wrote: Morey, Seth, and others, I have been working in the same realm
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 21, 2007
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                Jason:

                Thank you very much for that info.

                Seth

                Jason Kasiorek <jkasiorek@...> wrote:
                Morey, Seth, and others,

                I have been working in the same realm lately doing research on the farm
                clubs of the Detroit Red Wings over the years. It certainly is a tangled
                mess of affiliations, partial affiliations, sponsorships and working
                agreements. Here is what I have so far for Detroit:

                http://www.griffinscentral.com/hist/histfarm.html

                Jason Kasiorek
                WHA Oilers Site
                http://www.homeoftheoilers.orgfree.com

                From: "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@...>
                Subject: [hockhist] Re: Affiliations

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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