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Re:Affiliations

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  • William Underwood
    It actually has been known to be done in amateur ranks too but in different forms.teams used to be allowed to add players from other teams in the Memorial and
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 12, 2007
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      It actually has been known to be done in amateur ranks too but in different
      forms.teams used to be allowed to add players from other teams in the
      Memorial and Allan Cup playoffs.and when the US and Canadian National
      programs were structured differently the team that was going to represent
      the country could also get reinforcements. In Canada when club teams
      represented the country it was big and the US team at one time in 60's
      actually stayed in being and played in the old senior USHL.



      In the end it is not a bad thing.if a player is not seeing the ice much with
      his own club's affiliate he can get ice time to develop elsewhere benefiting
      both his club and him and the club that gets him gets a player who is
      needed. It can be confusing to the observer after the fact but is good for
      all parties at the time.



      Yes Morey that is a good point, NHL clubs did loan guys in the old days. Now
      I am not so sure that this didn't have its roots at the senior level.that is
      a VERY good question! Who started it? As it is not a uniquely NHL phenomenon
      did it start there or lower? I suspect at a lower level where clubs lacked
      the capacity to have a true farm system and the NHL just used it and as they
      had a farm system it became more established and extrapolated into different
      forms.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • epenaltybox
      ... days. Now ... level.that is ... The first case that I have found, where it was openly a borrowed player, was with the Vancouver Maroons in 1922. Vancouver
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 12, 2007
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        > Yes Morey that is a good point, NHL clubs did loan guys in the old
        days. Now
        > I am not so sure that this didn't have its roots at the senior
        level.that is
        > a VERY good question! Who started it?


        The first case that I have found, where it was openly a borrowed
        player, was with the Vancouver Maroons in 1922. Vancouver goalie Hugh
        Lehman was stuck in Ontario and could get leave from his job until
        December 1, which was what his agreement was every year. In 1922,
        Frank Patrick decided the season should open up early in November. The
        WCHL started in December, as per tradition (and the weather, all the
        WCHL rinks were natural ice surfaces). Patrick asked permission to
        borrow Calgary goalie Charlie Reid until December 1, and was granted.
        Reid went 1-4 as the Maroons stumbled out of the gate. Lehman caught
        his train as per the usual time, and Reid hightailed it to Calgary. If
        memory serves me, Reid worked the off-season in Spokane, so it was not
        a overly cumbersome to go to Vancouver for a couple of weeks.

        Morey
      • Seth Lerman
        Hi Morey, How are you? It has been awhile. I was recently looking at the rosters of the Syracuse Stars, and I noticed that many of the players played or were
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 13, 2007
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          Hi Morey,

          How are you? It has been awhile. I was recently looking at the rosters of the Syracuse Stars, and I noticed that many of the players played or were owned by the Maple Leafs, including Gord Drillon, Phil Stein, and Max Bennett, while others were owned or played for the Americans, including Jack Keating and Gord Kuhn. The uniforms are replicas of the New York Americans. Where the Stars an American's farm team that accepted players on loan from the Leafs, or were they independently owned with affiliations with both clubs?

          I also read in Gene Kiczek's book on the Barons that the Barons primarily used Minneapolis as a farm team, but they also owned the rights to many junior and senior players. What I find confusing is why would a player sign a "C" form with a minor league club when many NHL clubs were sponsoring players and teams? It seems as if a lot of good players were blocked from the NHL for years because the minor league teams owned their rights. And did the AHL use a "C" form or was that strictly an NHL deal?

          Seth

          epenaltybox <epenaltybox@...> wrote:
          Hi Seth,

          Hope all is well - it's been awhile. I've noticed the same
          patterns. Chicago had a relationship with St. Louis of the AHA, and
          later, USHL. Detroit owned Omaha. Toronto and Montreal started the
          underage signings of the junior kids. New York owned the Rovers, and
          the Bruins owned the Cubs (althought the official name is the Boston
          Bruin Cubs Hockey Club.)

          I'm still sorting out the pieces and changes. The Black Hawks would
          not have owned anything - they were one step ahead of the Repo Man.
          I'm looking into the sale of the Black Hawks from Tobin to
          Norris/Wirtz. It has just came to my attention that Norris/Wirtz
          were the Black Hawks' landlord since the late 1930s.

          Montreal had that great city league. I suspected they used Buffalo
          when they couldn't hide players in the heavily-scouted seniors. They
          also tended (but not 100%) to keep French speaking players in Quebec.

          Toronto had Hollywood in the PCHL and Pittsburgh in the AHL for
          awhile, and the pulled out. You start to see more and more Leafs of
          the 50s coming out of the Marlies program in the Senior OHA.

          Detroit pulled out of Omaha and jumped into Edmonton. Best move they
          ever made, if the names Ullman, Hall, Bucyk mean anything.

          Morey
          --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Seth Lerman <splhockey@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am in the process of researching minor league affiliations of NHL
          teams from the twenties to the present, and I have some questions.
          First of all, many of the AHL teams in ther forties were independent,
          save for Indianpolis who were owned by the Red Wings; however, many
          of these teams had NHL-signed players on their rosters. Where these
          players on loan? Or did the NHL teams have partial affiliations. For
          example, Hershey had several players owned by the Boston Bruins on
          their rosters, but the Bruins primary affiliate was the Boston
          Olympics of the Eastern League - even though the Olympics were
          considered to be semi pro. Buffalo featured many Canadiens, and
          Providence had several Blackhawks. Can anyone clarify the
          relationship between the NHL and the minor leagues from this era? I
          appreciate any help.
          >
          > Seth
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >






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        • William Underwood
          The Barons at the time were trying to move into the NHL and came VERY close to getting there! Now the C Form was an NHL phenomenon. It was an NHL contract and
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 14, 2007
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            The Barons at the time were trying to move into the NHL and came VERY close
            to getting there!



            Now the C Form was an NHL phenomenon. It was an NHL contract and actually
            was not as draconian as it seems. First of all players had to be 18 just
            like today. That is DIRECTLY from the NHL Official book about the six team
            league and a section by the old director of the central registry who oversaw
            this stuff and how the rules existed as of the end of sponsorship in the
            60's. Now an NHL club COULD own you prior to that by signing you to a junior
            card with a sponsored team AND putting you on their 18 man protected list
            per top level affiliate which is where the NHL system comes under the image
            of "signing you at 12." IF you were with an affiliate they could technically
            list you before 18. Simply put.if I was an NHL club with 4 clubs who gave me
            via working agreement their two junior slots I could sponsor 10 teams and
            would get the rights to 30 subsidiary organizations (they could be entire
            youth hockey leagues) under them. But I could only PROTECT from all of those
            clubs 18 at any given moment! So I see a 14 year old phenom, I could own his
            rights by listing him with a sponsored club IF I protected him at the price
            of a player who is already ON the team who I now don't own and is a free
            agent. You see more of this than meets the eye. Al Hamilton was an Edmonton
            Oil King (Detroit) but ended up signing with the Rangers!



            Each pro team could have two amateur affiliates at ANY level and for each of
            them three subsidiary lower level teams. Hence NHL teams would sign working
            agreements whereby the minor pro club would cede the rights to the NHL club.
            BUT should the NHL team not take that player sometimes the MINOR pro rights
            would go to that club if so stipulated. Now as to whom a player might end up
            with a minor pro team.the NHL sponsored the OHA junior A clubs which is
            where most of the best prospects congregated. There were only 8 teams hence
            they also ate up the best Western and Quebec teams like the Montreal Royals
            of the 40',/50's and later on the Edmonton Oil Kings. So if a club like
            Cleveland had an independent sponsorship odds are it was with a team in the
            NOHA or some other less than top league. So say you were like Ralph
            Backstrom, a kid in a backwater area.odds are one of the NHL teams nab you
            before you ever end up in the NOHA! Keep in mind the Leafs could put you on
            the Marlies or a Marlie affiliate at 15 giving them first crack at you! IF
            they didn't list you, you would be a free agent. Ted Lindsay and Red Kelly
            BOTH played for St Mikes but ended up Red Wings! Lindsay they flat out blew
            it on by not keeping him listed! Brad Park would also be lost once the
            amateur draft went into play.he was a guy who they COULD have protected and
            kept, he was in the Marlie chain before sponsorship ended but they BLEW IT!
            But IF they listed you and odds are they would if they were going through
            that much trouble you were Leaf property for whom the next step would be to
            be signed to the C Form at 18 and then to a pro deal.



            But say you were from a back water area and no NHL club came knocking? You
            may just end up with a minor pro owned team in the old days. And then you
            would have to hope that you got sold or, later on with the Inter League
            Draft, drafted from that team. But the NHL didn't miss a ton of guys.Usually
            the better minor pros ended up owned by minor pro teams because NHL teams
            traded or sold them to them or, ignored by the NHL, they started out in
            senior or the lower minors and were signed by a minor pro team. Now NHL
            teams made mistakes and gave up on guys early.remember Johnny Bower was
            originally a Ranger sent to the Barons for another player and cash then
            gotten by the Leafs in the Inter League Draft. Ed Giacomin who grew up in a
            non sponsored system, went to the low minors (actually in place of his
            brother who backed out of his try out), played well there, was signed by
            Providence and traded after 4 plus years to the Rangers for 4 minor pro
            players! Wayne Connelly was sold and bought back from Frisco by the Bruins.
            Jack McCartan, the 1960 US Olympic hero was sold by the Rangers to LA of the
            WHL although it was called "traded for cash". Guyle Fielder was originally
            Black Hawk property but was a microcosm of the system..he was loaned to New
            Westminster for cash, NHL rights traded to Detroit by Chicago with 2 other
            players for cash, claimed on waivers by the Rangers, traded to Seattle for a
            player, rights sold to Boston, claimed from Boston in the Inter League Draft
            by Seattle, NHL rights traded to Detroit for cash by Boston at the same
            time, claimed by Toronto in Inter League Draft refused to report and
            remained Seattle property.Guys would outlive their usefulness as a prospect
            (or so it seemed) and they would be dealt to minor pro clubs for money or
            players who those clubs owned. But not a ton came up through a minor pro
            sponsored teams a we drifted into the late 50's.



            Now before as I'm sure that Morey can confirm it was at items like early
            baseball where you would come up with a minor pro club and get sold or
            traded FAR more often than later as the sponsorship system became more
            complex and the hockey would became more vertically integrated into the NHL
            chain. And there were more misses.remember up until the mid 1920's the NHL
            was not the only major league and the minor pro system as we know it BEGAN
            in the pre war era but really did not evolve until post war over about the
            next ten years. Senior Hockey still was quite powerful and minor league more
            independently inclined.keep in mind the AHL actually torpedoed the NHL
            coming to Philly right after the war with threats of an anti trust action!
            By the time we reached 1965 the NHL not only could care less about the AHL
            they actually more or less screwed the WHL owners (who had threatened to
            rebel just a year and half before) when they were taking expansion
            applications for 1967. The NHL was not what was in 1967 back then. Top
            seniors got good money.more than most minor pro players well into the early
            50's. For some guys staying down made more sense.even Fielder who was well
            paid in Seattle and liked it out there said no to the Leafs in the end. Jean
            Beliveau was paid what was considered BIG money to stay in Quebec for two
            more years. Herb Carnegie turned the Rangers down when they told him he had
            to start in the minors and he stayed in senior. It was a different era!
            Simply put you might make MORE money by NOT going into an NHL chain at
            times.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Seth Lerman
            William, Thank you for the information. That explains a lot of what was happening in the six-team NHL and the AHL in regards to player signings. Seth William
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 14, 2007
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              William,

              Thank you for the information. That explains a lot of what was happening in the six-team NHL and the AHL in regards to player signings.

              Seth

              William Underwood <wausport@...> wrote:
              The Barons at the time were trying to move into the NHL and came VERY close
              to getting there!

              Now the C Form was an NHL phenomenon. It was an NHL contract and actually
              was not as draconian as it seems. First of all players had to be 18 just
              like today. That is DIRECTLY from the NHL Official book about the six team
              league and a section by the old director of the central registry who oversaw
              this stuff and how the rules existed as of the end of sponsorship in the
              60's. Now an NHL club COULD own you prior to that by signing you to a junior
              card with a sponsored team AND putting you on their 18 man protected list
              per top level affiliate which is where the NHL system comes under the image
              of "signing you at 12." IF you were with an affiliate they could technically
              list you before 18. Simply put.if I was an NHL club with 4 clubs who gave me
              via working agreement their two junior slots I could sponsor 10 teams and
              would get the rights to 30 subsidiary organizations (they could be entire
              youth hockey leagues) under them. But I could only PROTECT from all of those
              clubs 18 at any given moment! So I see a 14 year old phenom, I could own his
              rights by listing him with a sponsored club IF I protected him at the price
              of a player who is already ON the team who I now don't own and is a free
              agent. You see more of this than meets the eye. Al Hamilton was an Edmonton
              Oil King (Detroit) but ended up signing with the Rangers!

              Each pro team could have two amateur affiliates at ANY level and for each of
              them three subsidiary lower level teams. Hence NHL teams would sign working
              agreements whereby the minor pro club would cede the rights to the NHL club.
              BUT should the NHL team not take that player sometimes the MINOR pro rights
              would go to that club if so stipulated. Now as to whom a player might end up
              with a minor pro team.the NHL sponsored the OHA junior A clubs which is
              where most of the best prospects congregated. There were only 8 teams hence
              they also ate up the best Western and Quebec teams like the Montreal Royals
              of the 40',/50's and later on the Edmonton Oil Kings. So if a club like
              Cleveland had an independent sponsorship odds are it was with a team in the
              NOHA or some other less than top league. So say you were like Ralph
              Backstrom, a kid in a backwater area.odds are one of the NHL teams nab you
              before you ever end up in the NOHA! Keep in mind the Leafs could put you on
              the Marlies or a Marlie affiliate at 15 giving them first crack at you! IF
              they didn't list you, you would be a free agent. Ted Lindsay and Red Kelly
              BOTH played for St Mikes but ended up Red Wings! Lindsay they flat out blew
              it on by not keeping him listed! Brad Park would also be lost once the
              amateur draft went into play.he was a guy who they COULD have protected and
              kept, he was in the Marlie chain before sponsorship ended but they BLEW IT!
              But IF they listed you and odds are they would if they were going through
              that much trouble you were Leaf property for whom the next step would be to
              be signed to the C Form at 18 and then to a pro deal.

              But say you were from a back water area and no NHL club came knocking? You
              may just end up with a minor pro owned team in the old days. And then you
              would have to hope that you got sold or, later on with the Inter League
              Draft, drafted from that team. But the NHL didn't miss a ton of guys.Usually
              the better minor pros ended up owned by minor pro teams because NHL teams
              traded or sold them to them or, ignored by the NHL, they started out in
              senior or the lower minors and were signed by a minor pro team. Now NHL
              teams made mistakes and gave up on guys early.remember Johnny Bower was
              originally a Ranger sent to the Barons for another player and cash then
              gotten by the Leafs in the Inter League Draft. Ed Giacomin who grew up in a
              non sponsored system, went to the low minors (actually in place of his
              brother who backed out of his try out), played well there, was signed by
              Providence and traded after 4 plus years to the Rangers for 4 minor pro
              players! Wayne Connelly was sold and bought back from Frisco by the Bruins.
              Jack McCartan, the 1960 US Olympic hero was sold by the Rangers to LA of the
              WHL although it was called "traded for cash". Guyle Fielder was originally
              Black Hawk property but was a microcosm of the system..he was loaned to New
              Westminster for cash, NHL rights traded to Detroit by Chicago with 2 other
              players for cash, claimed on waivers by the Rangers, traded to Seattle for a
              player, rights sold to Boston, claimed from Boston in the Inter League Draft
              by Seattle, NHL rights traded to Detroit for cash by Boston at the same
              time, claimed by Toronto in Inter League Draft refused to report and
              remained Seattle property.Guys would outlive their usefulness as a prospect
              (or so it seemed) and they would be dealt to minor pro clubs for money or
              players who those clubs owned. But not a ton came up through a minor pro
              sponsored teams a we drifted into the late 50's.

              Now before as I'm sure that Morey can confirm it was at items like early
              baseball where you would come up with a minor pro club and get sold or
              traded FAR more often than later as the sponsorship system became more
              complex and the hockey would became more vertically integrated into the NHL
              chain. And there were more misses.remember up until the mid 1920's the NHL
              was not the only major league and the minor pro system as we know it BEGAN
              in the pre war era but really did not evolve until post war over about the
              next ten years. Senior Hockey still was quite powerful and minor league more
              independently inclined.keep in mind the AHL actually torpedoed the NHL
              coming to Philly right after the war with threats of an anti trust action!
              By the time we reached 1965 the NHL not only could care less about the AHL
              they actually more or less screwed the WHL owners (who had threatened to
              rebel just a year and half before) when they were taking expansion
              applications for 1967. The NHL was not what was in 1967 back then. Top
              seniors got good money.more than most minor pro players well into the early
              50's. For some guys staying down made more sense.even Fielder who was well
              paid in Seattle and liked it out there said no to the Leafs in the end. Jean
              Beliveau was paid what was considered BIG money to stay in Quebec for two
              more years. Herb Carnegie turned the Rangers down when they told him he had
              to start in the minors and he stayed in senior. It was a different era!
              Simply put you might make MORE money by NOT going into an NHL chain at
              times.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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            • Jason Kasiorek
              Morey, Seth, and others, I have been working in the same realm lately doing research on the farm clubs of the Detroit Red Wings over the years. It certainly is
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 21, 2007
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                Morey, Seth, and others,

                I have been working in the same realm lately doing research on the farm
                clubs of the Detroit Red Wings over the years. It certainly is a tangled
                mess of affiliations, partial affiliations, sponsorships and working
                agreements. Here is what I have so far for Detroit:

                http://www.griffinscentral.com/hist/histfarm.html




                Jason Kasiorek
                WHA Oilers Site
                http://www.homeoftheoilers.orgfree.com


                From: "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@...>
                Subject: [hockhist] Re: Affiliations






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Seth Lerman
                Jason: Thank you very much for that info. Seth Jason Kasiorek wrote: Morey, Seth, and others, I have been working in the same realm
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 21, 2007
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                  Jason:

                  Thank you very much for that info.

                  Seth

                  Jason Kasiorek <jkasiorek@...> wrote:
                  Morey, Seth, and others,

                  I have been working in the same realm lately doing research on the farm
                  clubs of the Detroit Red Wings over the years. It certainly is a tangled
                  mess of affiliations, partial affiliations, sponsorships and working
                  agreements. Here is what I have so far for Detroit:

                  http://www.griffinscentral.com/hist/histfarm.html

                  Jason Kasiorek
                  WHA Oilers Site
                  http://www.homeoftheoilers.orgfree.com

                  From: "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@...>
                  Subject: [hockhist] Re: Affiliations

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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