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Re: [hockhist] Re: Who invented the power play unit?

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  • Lloyd Davis
    You mean it took the Americans two years to respond to Pearl Harbor? ... -- Lloyd Davis Butterfield 8 Inc. 19 Tennis Crescent, #6 Toronto, ON M4K 1J4 416 462
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 9, 2007
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      You mean it took the Americans two years to respond to Pearl Harbor?

      On 9-Nov-07, at 4:31 PM, epenaltybox wrote:

      > Canada entered WW2 in 1939. The US joined in 1943. In the interim,
      > the Canadian government appeared to be less than happy with their
      > southern neighbors.
      >

      --
      Lloyd Davis
      Butterfield 8 Inc.
      19 Tennis Crescent, #6
      Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
      416 462 0230
      ldaviseditor@...
      --
    • epenaltybox
      Nah, takes us about 2 *minutes* to respond to an attack...Sorry for the typo. There still is some investigation that needs to be done, but things looked
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 9, 2007
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        Nah, takes us about 2 *minutes* to respond to an attack...Sorry for the
        typo. There still is some investigation that needs to be done, but
        things looked pretty good for the Canadian teams, and I don't think it
        was just because...

        The Canadiens almost moved to Cleveland in that era, and the Rangers
        were just flat-out decimated. I doubt they would have made the AHL
        playoffs with either their 43-44 or 44-45 team.

        Morey



        --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Lloyd Davis <ldaviseditor@...> wrote:
        >
        > You mean it took the Americans two years to respond to Pearl Harbor?
        >
      • Lloyd Davis
        ... In what way? ... Pick up a copy of _War Games_ by Douglas Hunter, and you ll find that this version of hockey history is on the level of the Montreal
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 9, 2007
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          On 9-Nov-07, at 4:31 PM, epenaltybox wrote:

          > Canada entered WW2 in 1939. The US joined in 1943. In the interim,
          > the Canadian government appeared to be less than happy with their
          > southern neighbors.


          In what way?


          >
          > Many of the US-based players were either drafted, or prevented from
          > leaving the country. The same rules did not apply to the Canadian
          > teams. Because of Conn Smythe's patriotism and iron-fistedness, many
          > of the Maple Leafs figured they better join him or forget about a
          > hockey career. The Canadiens, on the other hand, were not punished.
          > Players who should have been drafted, such as Rocket Richard and
          > Butch Bouchard, literally skated through the war.



          Pick up a copy of _War Games_ by Douglas Hunter, and you'll find that
          this version of hockey history is on the level of "the Montreal
          Canadiens were so good because they had first choice of all French-
          Canadian players."

          To quote Cliff Fletcher, draft shmaft. The National Resources
          Mobilization Act did provide for conscription -- but those drafted
          were earmarked for home defence. If you wanted to get into the "real"
          fight, in the European theatre -- and what red-blooded son of the
          Empire didn't? -- you had to volunteer.

          Smythe encouraged his players to volunteer for non-permanent units
          and to complete basic training. This was, on one hand, a PR move,
          while on the other it was insurance against the players being drafted
          for NRMA home-defence duties in the middle of a season. In other
          words, he didn't want the roster disrupted.

          Smythe profited off of wartime hockey. Military senior teams --
          stocked, of course, with NHL players -- played out of Maple Leaf
          Gardens. And wartime hockey was the catalyst for the Leafs-Canadiens
          rivalry. The teams had never met in the playoffs before 1944.

          The Canadiens' top scorer of 1940-41, John Quilty, played for Toronto
          RCAF in '42-43, Vancouver RCAF in '43-44, missed 1944-45 (as did a
          whole bunch of players who'd been performing "military service" by
          playing for army, navy or air force teams, after the Department of
          National Defence cracked down on this nonsense), and played for
          Ottawa Senators in '45-46 before returning to the pros. Joe Benoit,
          who scored 30 goals for the Habs in '42-43, missed the following
          season and then played for a Calgary army team before returning in
          '45-46. Ken Reardon. Polly Drouin. Jack Adams. Red Goupille. Tony
          Graboski.

          Off the '41-42 roster, add Terry Reardon, Pete Morin, Jack Portland,
          Bunny Dame, Jim Haggarty, Connie Tudin. And from the '42-43 team,
          Gord Drillon.

          According to Joe Pelletier's blog, Bouchard was excused from military
          duty because he was a beekeeper. Joe writes that Bouchard produced
          100,000 pounds of honey per year. Given wartime shortages of cane
          sugar, it could be argued that, like others in agriculture, Bouchard
          was providing a vital service worthy of exclusion from military duty.
          As for Richard, he was rejected as physically unfit for duty. Hey, it
          happens. Hank Greenberg was designated 4-F by his draft board.

          Richard worked in a munitions plant. Anglo-Canadians have accused him
          of using his work as a machinist to evade "real" military service.
          Funny, but they don't tar the Detroit Red Wings with that brush.

          The fact is, French Canada was ambivalent about the war, and was
          strongly opposed to conscription. This generated a huge level of
          resentment in English Canada. The Canadiens, as a symbol of French
          Canada, are therefore accused of not pulling their weight while the
          gallant Maple Leafs propped up the Empire when it was on its heels.
          I'd submit it's more myth than reality, and rooted to some extent in
          racism.



          >
          > The NY Rangers, on the other hand, were devastated. Everytime the
          > Rangers got someone young hot shot, he would either be drafted or
          > restricted from leaving the country. See the Phil Watson
          > transactions in 1943 to see how both teams go around this, at least
          > for one player. Detroit, Chicago and Boston rosters were devastated
          > as well. (Bruins GM, when a reporter asked him about the teams' poor
          > offense, famously said he believed his scoring was somewhere over in
          > France or Germany.)



          I'd say the Rangers expected the league to shut down in 1942-43, and
          were caught with their pants down. They disbanded their farm team in
          Philly. They let Frank Boucher go to Ottawa and start the Ottawa
          Commandos, and to lure Ranger players such as Neil Colville north.
          The Bruins' GM's scoring was in Ottawa, playing for the air force team.

          What we see in 1942 is an incredible number of hockey players rushing
          off to enlist. But how many actually went overseas? Not that many,
          really. Many played for military teams. Others ended up, like Howie
          Meeker, biding their time in England, because by the time they
          shipped overseas, they were told they weren't needed. There were very
          few Red Tilsons (or, on the U.S. side, Sam LoPrestis), who actually
          saw combat.



          >
          > Is has been estimated that the NHL lost 95 players to military
          > service (or about 16 per team). Of the 95, the Canadiens lost just
          > 8, and none after the 1943 season started.



          See above.



          >
          > The result was that when the war ended in 1945 and the players were
          > being released from their military resposnibilities into 1946.
          > Meanwhile, a crop of rookies that has never existed before or since
          > were coming into adulthood. Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk, Harvey, Laprade,
          > Meeker, Gadsby, and Barilko were just some of the highlights.
          >
          > Add the number of war returnees plus the war replacements to the mix
          > and you have far more capable players than jobs.
          >
          > This long explanation is why the league expanded its roster size, and
          > five of the six clubs created a full-blown system of one minor league
          > team and one senior team. Just Chicago went the old way, and if you
          > look at the standings, you will see a pretty inept club.



          >
          > I suspect it is the roster expansion which led to the special teams,
          > not the other way around.


          It would be interesting to determine why the league added a 17th
          skater in 1971-72 (maybe because 5 defencemen were no longer enough?)
          or the 18th skater in 1982-83 (the designated hitter?).


          --
          Lloyd Davis
          Butterfield 8 Inc.
          19 Tennis Crescent, #6
          Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
          416 462 0230
          ldaviseditor@...
          --
        • epenaltybox
          I stand corrected as a war buff. War Games is not in my library - it should be. Minor point - two of the players - Tuden and Drouin were minor leaguers went
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 9, 2007
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            I stand corrected as a war buff. War Games is not in my library - it
            should be.

            Minor point - two of the players - Tuden and Drouin were minor
            leaguers went they joined the military (Washington and New Haven,
            respectively), and one player, Frank Mailley, was with Les Canadiens
            exactly three days before he was called to serve.

            But the 13 players were much closer to the league average, so I
            humbly request that everyone ignore that point.

            The young players coming back and the servicemen returning did,
            however, cause a post-war boom in both quality and quantity of
            players, which was the original question.

            I remember the 18th skater was added because most teams were playing
            with three lines, six d, and two goons.

            As far as the 17th skater in 71, I don't have a clue.

            Morey

            > It would be interesting to determine why the league added a 17th
            > skater in 1971-72 (maybe because 5 defencemen were no longer
            enough?)
            > or the 18th skater in 1982-83 (the designated hitter?).
            >
            >
            > --
            > Lloyd Davis
            > Butterfield 8 Inc.
            > 19 Tennis Crescent, #6
            > Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
            > 416 462 0230
            > ldaviseditor@...
            > --
            >
          • Lloyd Davis
            ... Yeah, that s a point I couldn t dispute, so I didn t. :) Of course, the expanded roster really only lasted a few seasons. From 1949-50 to 51-52, teams
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 10, 2007
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              On 10-Nov-07, at 12:31 AM, epenaltybox wrote:

              > The young players coming back and the servicemen returning did,
              > however, cause a post-war boom in both quality and quantity of
              > players, which was the original question.


              Yeah, that's a point I couldn't dispute, so I didn't. :)

              Of course, the expanded roster really only lasted a few seasons. From
              1949-50 to '51-52, teams were allowed to dress up to 17 skaters. Then
              it was 16 for the home team, 15 for the visitors. Then, generally
              until 1971, 16 skaters -- only one more than the pre-war limit,
              although it strikes me that teams other than Chicago were probably
              more likely to dress the full 16, whereas before the war I could
              imagine a handful of teams dressing closer to the minimum of 12.


              >
              > As far as the 17th skater in 71, I don't have a clue.


              My guess is an extra D. Even at the end of the six-team era, teams
              were getting by on three lines and two defence pairs, with a fifth D
              to play when one of the other four was in the penalty box, and 10th
              and 11th forwards who weren't much more than a couple pairs of fresh
              legs to "kill penalties." By '71, I imagine the 5th defenceman was
              not only being used more, but coaches were seeing the benefit of
              three pairs. But that's just an impression.


              --
              Lloyd Davis
              Butterfield 8 Inc.
              19 Tennis Crescent, #6
              Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
              416 462 0230
              ldaviseditor@...
              --
            • J.P. Martel
              ... On the other side, Lloyd didn t mention Tony Demers, who was the 6th scorer of the Canadiens (with 7 points) on Dec. 1, 1942, when he was enlisted. He
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 10, 2007
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                > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > Minor point - two of the players - Tuden and Drouin were minor
                > leaguers went they joined the military (Washington and New Haven,
                > respectively), and one player, Frank Mailley, was with Les
                > Canadiens exactly three days before he was called to serve.

                On the other side, Lloyd didn't mention Tony Demers, who was
                the 6th scorer of the Canadiens (with 7 points) on Dec. 1, 1942,
                when he was enlisted. He played his first game with the Montréal
                Army team on Dec. 2.

                Demers' 7 points were obtained despite having missed three games
                (out of twelve), due to his previous year's leg injury. At that
                point, he was 2 points above Maurice Richard, who'd missed games
                in the U.S. due to his not being able to get a passport.

                On Nov. 22, in the game against Chicago, the Canadiens only had
                11 players in uniform, due to Demers' and Charley Sands' injuries,
                and no papers for Richard, Terry Reardon and Elmer Lach.

                J.-Patrice
              • William Underwood
                Actually the Canadiens never took over the Quebec Senior League. Punch Imlach tells the story well as he was coach of Quebec when it happened. The Habs wanted
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 10, 2007
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                  Actually the Canadiens never took over the Quebec Senior League. Punch
                  Imlach tells the story well as he was coach of Quebec when it happened. The
                  Habs wanted Jean Beliveau who had signed a rare B Form with Montreal. Now
                  the NHL had three types of form amatuer players would sign with them.An A
                  Form was an agreement to attend an NHL camp and sign with the team should
                  they offer him a contract for a mutually agreed amount. The player had to be
                  put on the Reserve List which he was removed form during camp. If the club
                  wanted the player he could be signed and put back onto the list or put on
                  the 4 man neg list or singed to another A Form after being waived. The C
                  Form was the most common. Players were signed to it at 18 (prior to that you
                  could be on a junior protected list giving the team rights to you) and it
                  gave them a bonus payment (minimum 50 bucks.hey it was pre 1967) and future
                  guaranteed minimum salaries for the NHL and the minors if the club opted to
                  turn you pro. If the player did not sign a pro deal within a year he could
                  have the form renewed for another year at the club's option. The key here
                  with these two forms was that the CLUB controlled the player's fate.now the
                  B was a RARE bird as the PLAYER had more control. The B Form required a
                  bonus payment and like the A form the player agreed to go to camp. If
                  offered a contract he also agreed to sign on mutually agreeable terms. But
                  here is the kicker.the PLAYER could decide when he wanted to sign and his
                  salary had top be equal to the average fair NHL salary.not minimum wage! The
                  club did get something back, there was no renewal clause ala the A Form so
                  it was in effect until the player retired or signed in the NHL. As Le Gros
                  Bill never signed a C Form he had the clout to do better and got the B Form.
                  Quebec paid him so well that he simply kept on telling the Habs "hell no I
                  won't go." But as they did bring him up on amateur try out and was a legend
                  in the province and the team was sitting in the middle of a Red Wing dynasty
                  something Had to be done.Now the B Form gave you all of these rights as an
                  amateur but not as a pro. So what if the QSHL was not pro anymore? Beliveau
                  would more or less have to go the Habs because that B From gave them his PRO
                  rights! This where legend departs form fact.the legend is that the Habs
                  bought or took over the league. They did not! What they did was simple.they
                  owned the Montreal Royals and thus had the ability to motion to go pro. All
                  they needed were the votes.so by promising an exhibition here, to send a
                  player there etc they cajoled the votes to turn the league pro and thus bag
                  Big Jean! It really was a fascinating bit of work! Imlach tried to pull guys
                  the other way by saying "doesn't Beliveau and the gates that her draws mean
                  more to you than what they are giving you." The answer was "no". A few years
                  later the Aces went to the AHL and the QHL began to unravel and became the
                  base for the EPHL which folded and was replaced by the old CPHL and also
                  opened the way for a revival of top level junior hockey in Quebec.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • epenaltybox
                  I m beginning to wonder if any of hockey s legeds ever existed? Did Wayne Gretzky really score 92 in a year? Morey ... Punch ... happened. The ... Montreal.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 11, 2007
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                    I'm beginning to wonder if any of hockey's legeds ever existed?

                    Did Wayne Gretzky really score 92 in a year?

                    Morey

                    --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Actually the Canadiens never took over the Quebec Senior League.
                    Punch
                    > Imlach tells the story well as he was coach of Quebec when it
                    happened. The
                    > Habs wanted Jean Beliveau who had signed a rare B Form with
                    Montreal. Now
                    > the NHL had three types of form amatuer players would sign with
                    them.An A
                    > Form was an agreement to attend an NHL camp and sign with the team
                    should
                    > they offer him a contract for a mutually agreed amount. The player
                    had to be
                    > put on the Reserve List which he was removed form during camp. If
                    the club
                    > wanted the player he could be signed and put back onto the list or
                    put on
                    > the 4 man neg list or singed to another A Form after being waived.
                    The C
                    > Form was the most common. Players were signed to it at 18 (prior to
                    that you
                    > could be on a junior protected list giving the team rights to you)
                    and it
                    > gave them a bonus payment (minimum 50 bucks.hey it was pre 1967)
                    and future
                    > guaranteed minimum salaries for the NHL and the minors if the club
                    opted to
                    > turn you pro. If the player did not sign a pro deal within a year
                    he could
                    > have the form renewed for another year at the club's option. The
                    key here
                    > with these two forms was that the CLUB controlled the player's
                    fate.now the
                    > B was a RARE bird as the PLAYER had more control. The B Form
                    required a
                    > bonus payment and like the A form the player agreed to go to camp.
                    If
                    > offered a contract he also agreed to sign on mutually agreeable
                    terms. But
                    > here is the kicker.the PLAYER could decide when he wanted to sign
                    and his
                    > salary had top be equal to the average fair NHL salary.not minimum
                    wage! The
                    > club did get something back, there was no renewal clause ala the A
                    Form so
                    > it was in effect until the player retired or signed in the NHL. As
                    Le Gros
                    > Bill never signed a C Form he had the clout to do better and got
                    the B Form.
                    > Quebec paid him so well that he simply kept on telling the
                    Habs "hell no I
                    > won't go." But as they did bring him up on amateur try out and was
                    a legend
                    > in the province and the team was sitting in the middle of a Red
                    Wing dynasty
                    > something Had to be done.Now the B Form gave you all of these
                    rights as an
                    > amateur but not as a pro. So what if the QSHL was not pro anymore?
                    Beliveau
                    > would more or less have to go the Habs because that B From gave
                    them his PRO
                    > rights! This where legend departs form fact.the legend is that the
                    Habs
                    > bought or took over the league. They did not! What they did was
                    simple.they
                    > owned the Montreal Royals and thus had the ability to motion to go
                    pro. All
                    > they needed were the votes.so by promising an exhibition here, to
                    send a
                    > player there etc they cajoled the votes to turn the league pro and
                    thus bag
                    > Big Jean! It really was a fascinating bit of work! Imlach tried to
                    pull guys
                    > the other way by saying "doesn't Beliveau and the gates that her
                    draws mean
                    > more to you than what they are giving you." The answer was "no". A
                    few years
                    > later the Aces went to the AHL and the QHL began to unravel and
                    became the
                    > base for the EPHL which folded and was replaced by the old CPHL and
                    also
                    > opened the way for a revival of top level junior hockey in Quebec.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Lloyd Davis
                    Nah, he was a better golfer than that. Not as good as Fuhr thought he was, but I ve read he was an 8 handicap. ... -- Lloyd Davis Butterfield 8 Inc. 19 Tennis
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 11, 2007
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                      Nah, he was a better golfer than that. Not as good as Fuhr thought he
                      was, but I've read he was an 8 handicap.

                      On 11-Nov-07, at 12:51 PM, epenaltybox wrote:

                      > Did Wayne Gretzky really score 92 in a year?

                      --
                      Lloyd Davis
                      Butterfield 8 Inc.
                      19 Tennis Crescent, #6
                      Toronto, ON M4K 1J4
                      416 462 0230
                      ldaviseditor@...
                      --
                    • William Underwood
                      I think any of the goalies that year might have thought it was 192.:-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 12, 2007
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                        I think any of the goalies that year might have thought it was 192.:-)



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