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Re: 1984-85 NHL Goaltenders: Froese, Lindbergh, and Credited Losses

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  • dsreyn
    I thought hockey bases winning and losing goalies on who is in net at the time of the last lead change, similar to how winning and losing pitchers are
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2007
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      I thought hockey bases winning and losing goalies on who is in net at
      the time of the last lead change, similar to how winning and losing
      pitchers are determined in baseball. In this case, the last lead
      change came when Winnipeg scored their third goal in the second
      period, taking a 3-2 lead, so I think that whoever was in net for the
      Flyers at that time becomes the goalie of record.

      Of course, the "game winning goal" for scorers is *not* determined
      this way - that's simply the goal that is one more than the losing
      team scores (in this case, the 5th). So if I have the goalie part
      correct, this means that the losing goalie is not necessarily the one
      that gives up the "game winning" goal.

      Doug

      --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@...> wrote:
      >
      > The question is when did Froese leave the game. I can't imagine he
      > strained his ligaments in the locker room between periods. The Jets
      > 5th goal was scored just 23 seconds into the 3rd, while their fourth
      > was scored with 1:20 left in the second. Find out the goalie who
      > gave up the 5th, and the details of Froese leaving the game, and you
      > have your answer.
      >
      > According to the Gettysburg Times:
      >
      > "The Jets opened up a three-goal lead at 23 seconds of the third
      > period when Robert Picard took a pass from (Dale) Hawerchuk in front
      > of the goal and went over substitute goalie Pelle Lindbergh."
      >
      > Sounds like a contemporary eyewitness account to me. I'd change it.
      >
      > Morey
      >
      > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Doug Norris <norrisdt@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > My apologies for the long e-mail; rest assured that I'm going
      > > somewhere important with this. Also, thanks to Peter from
      > > flyershistory.com for his help on this so far.
      > >
      > > As you may remember (at least from the Rick St. Croix topic of
      > > a few weeks ago), I'm currently reconciling my goaltender game
      > > logs for the 1984-85 NHL season. At some point, I noticed that I
      > > had an "extra" loss for Pelle Lindbergh and was missing a loss for
      > > Bob Froese (although game played totals matched for each).
      > > Fortunately, since Froese's official totals for 1984-85 were
      > > 13-2-0, it should have been easy to find.
      > >
      > > The Philadelphia media guide lists Froese with two losses, one to
      > > Quebec (March 2nd) and one to Winnipeg. I can confirm the Quebec
      > > loss, but cannot find the Winnipeg loss. Moreover, the Winnipeg
      > > media guide confirms a Froese loss to Winnipeg. The following
      > > were the three Philadelphia/Winnipeg games of 1984-85:
      > >
      > > November 1 7-4 Winnipeg victory
      > > December 11 5-4 OT Winnipeg victory
      > > January 27 6-2 Winnipeg victory
      > >
      > > My records showed Lindbergh as playing the entire January 27 game,
      > > and Lindbergh giving up the overtime goal on December 11 (Froese
      > > leaving with strained left knee ligaments). Therefore, my best
      > > guess is that the media guides (and league totals) credit the
      > > November 1 loss to Froese. Also, looking at the Toronto Star's
      > > weekly NHL goaltending totals (printed every Tuesday!), I get
      > > further evidence that the November 1st loss was credited to Froese
      > > instead of Lindbergh. So let's centre the conversation on
      > > November 1, 1984.
      > >
      > > Since the discrepancy involved a Philadelphia Flyer goaltender, I
      > > had the excellent resource flyershistory.com to work with (if you
      > > haven't been there before, you should, because among other things
      > > Peter has collected every box score in franchise history). And
      > > his box score for the November 1st game matches my records
      > > perfectly:
      > >
      > > http://flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/boxscore.cgi?19840104
      > >
      > > Froese started the game and stopped sixteen of twenty shots.
      > > Lindbergh gave up three goals on the final eight shots, and should
      > > have earned the loss.
      > >
      > > Naturally, I checked with Peter on this, and he was able to access
      > > a Philadelphia-area account of the game, confirming that Froese
      > > played the first two periods and Lindbergh the last (including the
      > > fifth and game-winning goal).
      > >
      > > ------------
      > >
      > > So that's where we are. Are the National Hockey League official
      > > totals for Lindbergh and Froese incorrect, and should one of
      > > Froese's two losses be credited to Lindbergh (in his
      > > trophy-winning campaign no less)? Can anyone lend any insight
      > > into the matter? Does The Hockey News have a boxscore, perchance?
      > > Any other accounts of the game? Any other boxscores or references
      > > on this one? I'm loathe to make this decision based on less than
      > > 100% evidence, but as we've seen from St. Croix, the NHL makes
      > > mistakes from time to time.
      > >
      > > Confounding matters is this report from the Toronto Star: "After
      > > the Jets took a 5-3 lead, Flyers goalie Bob Froese was replaced by
      > > Pelle Lindbergh.". This conflicts the other evidence; however,
      > > Froese is only credited with four goals against Winnipeg in both
      > > media guides.
      > >
      > > Any help would be...well, very helpful. Thanks!
      > >
      >
    • Doug Norris
      Morey, your analysis is spot-on as always. Thank you! I m putting together exhibits for these for when I send them to the league office and other places (this
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 1, 2007
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        Morey, your analysis is spot-on as always. Thank you!

        I'm putting together exhibits for these for when I send them to
        the league office and other places (this + St. Croix + whatever
        else I find), so if anyone is interested, I'd love additional
        supporting texts such as the Gettsyburg Times article. Once I get
        back from Seattle, I'll do some more heavy digging.

        Thanks!
        Doug
        http://hockeygoalies.org
      • epenaltybox
        Nope. Here s a reference: How are goalie wins determined? Is it based on minutes played, or which goalie is on the ice when the winning goal is scored?
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 3, 2007
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          Nope.

          Here's a reference:

          How are goalie wins determined? Is it based on minutes played, or
          which goalie is on the ice when the winning goal is scored?
          Typically, the winning goalie will play the entire game, but what if
          a goalie is injured and substituted for, and his team goes on to win
          the game in OT?— Anthony Targan

          The win or loss is determined by which goalie was in net when the
          winning goal is scored. Likewise, the tie is awarded to the goalie in
          net when the tying goal is scored. So in your scenario, the goalie
          who was in net when his team scores in overtime would get the win.

          The one disadvantage to this format is that it punishes a substitute
          goalie whose team rallies but falls short. For example, in Carolina's
          Jan. 20 game against St. Louis, Kevin Weekes was pulled after giving
          up three goals in 40 minutes. Arturs Irbe came in during the third
          period and gave up Eric Boguniecki's goal at 2:11 to make it 4-0
          Blues. Then Carolina rallied and made it 4-3 before St. Louis scored
          an empty-netter. Irbe was tagged with the loss, even though you could
          probably argue that Weekes was more responsible.

          Morey

          P.S. I remember one game in the 80s in L.A. - I think it was against
          Winnipeg - where the Kings were losing by a goal and pulled the
          goalie. The Jets (may have been Flames) scored an empty net goal,
          and then the Kings pulled the goalie again and scored. Someone was
          tagged with a loss.

          There was another similar case in which a substitute goalie was
          pulled, an empty net goal was scored, and the goalie was charged with
          the loss, with a G.A.A. of 0.00.


          --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...> wrote:
          >
          > I thought hockey bases winning and losing goalies on who is in net
          at
          > the time of the last lead change, similar to how winning and losing
          > pitchers are determined in baseball. In this case, the last lead
          > change came when Winnipeg scored their third goal in the second
          > period, taking a 3-2 lead, so I think that whoever was in net for
          the
          > Flyers at that time becomes the goalie of record.
          >
          > Of course, the "game winning goal" for scorers is *not* determined
          > this way - that's simply the goal that is one more than the losing
          > team scores (in this case, the 5th). So if I have the goalie part
          > correct, this means that the losing goalie is not necessarily the
          one
          > that gives up the "game winning" goal.
          >
          > Doug
          >
          > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "epenaltybox" <epenaltybox@> wrote:
          > >
          > > The question is when did Froese leave the game. I can't imagine
          he
          > > strained his ligaments in the locker room between periods. The
          Jets
          > > 5th goal was scored just 23 seconds into the 3rd, while their
          fourth
          > > was scored with 1:20 left in the second. Find out the goalie who
          > > gave up the 5th, and the details of Froese leaving the game, and
          you
          > > have your answer.
          > >
          > > According to the Gettysburg Times:
          > >
          > > "The Jets opened up a three-goal lead at 23 seconds of the third
          > > period when Robert Picard took a pass from (Dale) Hawerchuk in
          front
          > > of the goal and went over substitute goalie Pelle Lindbergh."
          > >
          > > Sounds like a contemporary eyewitness account to me. I'd change
          it.
          > >
          > > Morey
          > >
          > > --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Doug Norris <norrisdt@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > My apologies for the long e-mail; rest assured that I'm going
          > > > somewhere important with this. Also, thanks to Peter from
          > > > flyershistory.com for his help on this so far.
          > > >
          > > > As you may remember (at least from the Rick St. Croix topic of
          > > > a few weeks ago), I'm currently reconciling my goaltender game
          > > > logs for the 1984-85 NHL season. At some point, I noticed that
          I
          > > > had an "extra" loss for Pelle Lindbergh and was missing a loss
          for
          > > > Bob Froese (although game played totals matched for each).
          > > > Fortunately, since Froese's official totals for 1984-85 were
          > > > 13-2-0, it should have been easy to find.
          > > >
          > > > The Philadelphia media guide lists Froese with two losses, one
          to
          > > > Quebec (March 2nd) and one to Winnipeg. I can confirm the
          Quebec
          > > > loss, but cannot find the Winnipeg loss. Moreover, the
          Winnipeg
          > > > media guide confirms a Froese loss to Winnipeg. The following
          > > > were the three Philadelphia/Winnipeg games of 1984-85:
          > > >
          > > > November 1 7-4 Winnipeg victory
          > > > December 11 5-4 OT Winnipeg victory
          > > > January 27 6-2 Winnipeg victory
          > > >
          > > > My records showed Lindbergh as playing the entire January 27
          game,
          > > > and Lindbergh giving up the overtime goal on December 11
          (Froese
          > > > leaving with strained left knee ligaments). Therefore, my best
          > > > guess is that the media guides (and league totals) credit the
          > > > November 1 loss to Froese. Also, looking at the Toronto Star's
          > > > weekly NHL goaltending totals (printed every Tuesday!), I get
          > > > further evidence that the November 1st loss was credited to
          Froese
          > > > instead of Lindbergh. So let's centre the conversation on
          > > > November 1, 1984.
          > > >
          > > > Since the discrepancy involved a Philadelphia Flyer goaltender,
          I
          > > > had the excellent resource flyershistory.com to work with (if
          you
          > > > haven't been there before, you should, because among other
          things
          > > > Peter has collected every box score in franchise history). And
          > > > his box score for the November 1st game matches my records
          > > > perfectly:
          > > >
          > > > http://flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/boxscore.cgi?19840104
          > > >
          > > > Froese started the game and stopped sixteen of twenty shots.
          > > > Lindbergh gave up three goals on the final eight shots, and
          should
          > > > have earned the loss.
          > > >
          > > > Naturally, I checked with Peter on this, and he was able to
          access
          > > > a Philadelphia-area account of the game, confirming that Froese
          > > > played the first two periods and Lindbergh the last (including
          the
          > > > fifth and game-winning goal).
          > > >
          > > > ------------
          > > >
          > > > So that's where we are. Are the National Hockey League
          official
          > > > totals for Lindbergh and Froese incorrect, and should one of
          > > > Froese's two losses be credited to Lindbergh (in his
          > > > trophy-winning campaign no less)? Can anyone lend any insight
          > > > into the matter? Does The Hockey News have a boxscore,
          perchance?
          > > > Any other accounts of the game? Any other boxscores or
          references
          > > > on this one? I'm loathe to make this decision based on less
          than
          > > > 100% evidence, but as we've seen from St. Croix, the NHL makes
          > > > mistakes from time to time.
          > > >
          > > > Confounding matters is this report from the Toronto
          Star: "After
          > > > the Jets took a 5-3 lead, Flyers goalie Bob Froese was replaced
          by
          > > > Pelle Lindbergh.". This conflicts the other evidence; however,
          > > > Froese is only credited with four goals against Winnipeg in
          both
          > > > media guides.
          > > >
          > > > Any help would be...well, very helpful. Thanks!
          > > >
          > >
          >
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