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A Jacques Plante question

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  • nybos1974
    In an issue of The Hockey News from 1970 I saw an interesting item about Plante. They printed that there was a rumor going around that Plante would be traded
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 6, 2006
      In an issue of The Hockey News from 1970 I saw an interesting item
      about Plante. They printed that there was a rumor going around that
      Plante would be traded to St. Louis after the season to Toronto and
      Terry Sawchuk would then go from the Rangers to St. Louis...but it
      doesn't say who the Rangers would get.

      Anyone know the answer? After Sawchuk died Plante was sold to Toronto
      for cash so there was some truth to the rumor.

      Jay in Milford
    • Lloyd Davis
      Not sure whether the Blues were interested in Sawchuk, but the Plante deal was apparently in the works even before the 1970 playoffs ended. Andrew Podnieks
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 6, 2006
        Not sure whether the Blues were interested in Sawchuk, but the Plante deal
        was apparently in the works even before the 1970 playoffs ended.

        Andrew Podnieks' various editions of the Blue and White Book all list Plante
        as having been acquired _from the Rangers_ on May 3 for Denis Dupere and Guy
        Trottier.

        Meanwhile, if you flip over to Dupere's entry, it says the Leafs acquired
        him on May 3, "with Jacques Plante and Guy Trottier from the Rangers for Tim
        Horton."

        Trottier's entry says he was acquired by Toronto, on _March_ 3, "with
        Jacques Plante and Denis Dupere from the Rangers for Tim Horton."

        Finally, Horton's entry says "traded March 3, 1970,to the Rangers for
        Jacques Plante, Denis Dupere, and Guy Trottier."

        Total Hockey has Plante being sold by St. Louis to Toronto on May 18. Horton
        was traded by New York to Toronto for future considerations on March 3.
        Dupere was the future considerations, and Toronto got him on May 14. And
        Trottier was picked up in the intra-league draft on June 9.

        Obviously, as Plante played for the Blues well beyond March 3, Podnieks is
        inaccurate about him being acquired from the Rangers. But contemporary
        sources indicate that the Plante and Horton deals were tied together. A
        gentleman's agreement must have been made between the three teams, but I'm
        not sure what would have passed between New York and St. Louis. Maybe an
        undocumented agreement about the expansion draft?

        It's also interesting to note that Trottier was one of the best players on
        the final edition of the Buffalo Bisons of the AHL. I can see Smythe and
        Ballard snapping him up before Punch Imlach could claim him.

        Somewhere I've got some clippings about this, and if I can find them, I'll
        summarize them.

        I'm not sure if Sawchuk would've been bound for St. Louis. The point in
        unloading Plante was his age, and Sawchuk was only 11 months younger than
        Plante. Both were born in 1929, while Glenn Hall was born in '31. Hall
        backed up the 30-year-old Ernie Wakely in 1970-71. I think that's the way
        the Blues were leaning, even before Sawchuk's death. But I'll see if I can
        find my Plante file.

        on 9/6/06 6:38 AM, nybos1974 at Swanrvr80@... wrote:

        > Anyone know the answer? After Sawchuk died Plante was sold to Toronto
        > for cash so there was some truth to the rumor.

        --
        Lloyd Davis Communications
        304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
        416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
        ldavis@...
      • Swanrvr80@aol.com
        Thanks! That answers everything. I didn t make the connection with Horton. Jay [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 7, 2006
          Thanks! That answers everything. I didn't make the connection with Horton.

          Jay


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lloyd Davis
          Well, I don t know if it answers everything. Sawchuk would certainly have been surplus to the Rangers plans. I don t have a list of whom the Rangers protected
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 7, 2006
            Well, I don't know if it answers everything. Sawchuk would certainly have
            been surplus to the Rangers' plans. I don't have a list of whom the Rangers
            protected in the 1970 expansion draft, but Giacomin would certainly have
            been on the list, and I suspect Villemure from their Buffalo roster would've
            been the number 2 goalie. Sawchuk would've been left unprotected.

            On page 18 of the May 15, 1970, editions of the Toronto Star, under the
            headline "Trading deadline extended to May 22," Red Burnett wrote that
            "Those in the know still insist St. Louis Blues' goalie Jacques Plante will
            come here [to Toronto], with Rangers sending Orland Kurtenbach to St.
            Louis."

            Burnett added that George Morrison, a free agent who had played with the
            York Steel Jr. B team in Toronto and who had made the All-America team in
            both his seasons at Denver University, was to sign with St. Louis.

            Ten days later, a blind item on page 12 of the Star ("Plante is happy to be
            a Leaf"), quoted an unnamed Leaf source as saying that word of the trade had
            leaked out before the Leafs and Blues could arrange to make a joint
            announcement. The uncredited writer scoffed at this: "Actually, it leaked
            out when Leafs traded Tim Horton, their all-star defenceman, to New York
            Rangers in March. Plante was ticketed for Toronto in what would become a
            three-cornered deal involving the Leafs, the Rangers and the Blues."

            The Leafs said they were only at liberty to announce that the Blues were
            receiving future considerations, and that the full details of the trade
            could not be released until after the intra-league draft. Sid Salomon III in
            St. Louis confirmed the deal, but pleaded ignorance of the terms, saying
            that Scotty Bowman was working them out.

            The piece repeated that Kurtenbach was headed for St. Louis. Trottier's name
            was again mentioned.

            On May 27, Red Burnett wrote on page 27 ("Plante deal surprises Edwards, but
            leaves Gamble unruffled") that "Leafs are expected to pick up Guy Trottier
            from New York on the first round of [the intra-league] draft. Los Angeles
            has first pick and will take a Canadien by agreement with Hab general
            manager Sam Pollock. This is part of the deal which sent Dick Duff to
            Kings."

            Clearly, when teams wanted to, they were quite open about their personnel
            plans. But not always. What we have between New York, St. Louis and Toronto
            is a three-cornered deal, with no consideration going from NY to St. Louis.

            We don't know how accurate the rumours were about sending Kurtenbach to the
            Blues. He certainly didn't fit their plans, as he was unprotected and the
            Canucks drafted him.

            In Andy O'Brien's 1972 biography of Jacques Plante, he writes that members
            of the Toronto press paid a visit to Plante while he was still in his
            hospital bed recovering from the concussion he suffered in the 1970 finals.

            "The newsmen were vague. They understood the deal was connected somehow with
            the trade that recently sent Tim Horton from the Leafs to the Rangers. The
            Blues had a player obligation owing to the Rangers who now had an obligation
            owing to Leafs. The Leafs were openly anxious about Plante's status in the
            coming June Draft -- they'd like to get him, very much like to get him. So
            Rangers told Blues that if they dealt off Plante to Leafs all obligations
            would be considered squared. Understand?"

            O'Brien quotes Plante as nodding "dubiously," and responding, "I guess so,
            but I've never heard of such an involved rumor."

            Anyway, O'Brien writes that, shortly after the Bruins defeated the Blues for
            the Cup, Bowman took Plante aside and told him they intended to protect
            Wakely and Hall, therefore he was headed out. And, as we see, by the end of
            May the Leafs were confirming the trade.

            I couldn't really find a trade that left the Blues owing a player to the
            Rangers, but I did come upon a list of Rangers transactions on a site called
            Outsidethegarden.com. These guys showed a farmhand by the name of Larry
            Hornung being traded twice from New York to St. Louis: once on June 1, 1969,
            for cash, and again on November 1, 1969, for Sheldon Kannegiesser.

            If you look at Hornung's player record, he shuttled between Kansas City (the
            Blues' CHL farm team) and Buffalo (the Rangers' AHL affiliate) a couple of
            times between 1968 and '70. So, maybe on one of those swaps of
            minor-leaguers, the Blues ended up owing the Rangers a player.

            Jay, I'm sorry that none of this answers your original question about
            Sawchuk. But it shows what a tangled web some of these transaction accounts
            can be. Especially when the expansion drafts were involved.

            Finally, a note from Red Burnett in the June 9, 1970, edition of the Star,
            had Punch Imlach -- coach and GM of the expansion Sabres -- accusing the
            Leafs of brinkmanship in their decision to claim Guy Trottier in the draft.
            "'He's a drawing card in Buffalo, starred there with the American Hockey
            League Bisons this past season,' Imlach stormed. 'Leafs can't use him, but
            will take him just to spite me.'"

            Leaf fans of a certain vintage remember Dupere primarily for his Weetabix
            commercials.

            on 9/7/06 5:27 AM, Swanrvr80@... at Swanrvr80@... wrote:

            > Thanks! That answers everything. I didn't make the connection with Horton.

            --
            Lloyd Davis Communications
            304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
            416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
            ldavis@...
          • Swanrvr80@aol.com
            Thanks for your research. Interesting thing about Larry Hornung is that in the Total Hockey Encyclopedia it states he was loaned to NY Rangers by St. Louis
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 11, 2006
              Thanks for your research. Interesting thing about Larry Hornung is that in
              the Total Hockey Encyclopedia it states he was "loaned to NY Rangers by St.
              Louis for the remainder of the 69/70 season for the loan of Sheldon Kannegiesser
              for the remainder of the 69/70 season." So, not a trade but a loan.

              Odd. Very odd and something that wouldn't be done today.

              Jay


              In a message dated 9/7/06 1:01:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ldavis@...
              writes:


              > couldn't really find a trade that left the Blues owing a player to the
              > Rangers, but I did come upon a list of Rangers transactions on a site called
              > Outsidethegarden.com. These guys showed a farmhand by the name of Larry
              > Hornung being traded twice from New York to St. Louis: once on June 1, 1969,
              > for cash, and again on November 1, 1969, for Sheldon Kannegiesser.
              >



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