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Re: Virtual World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame announces class of 2007

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  • mhdibiase
    FYI Splendid idea! I would like to make some suggestions: How about adding an international player category so that players like Vladisav Tretiak be added?
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 4, 2006
      FYI

      Splendid idea!

      I would like to make some suggestions:

      How about adding an international player category so that players
      like Vladisav Tretiak be added?

      Also would adding Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall to the builders
      category be appropriate since both goalies revolutionized goaltending
      tactics in the NHL?

      Also how about adding the late red wings scout Carson Cooper since
      Ted Lindsay told me in an interview eariler this year that he was
      very important in finding the talent that made up the great Red Wings
      dynasty from 1947 to 1955?

      Okay, nuff sed on my part.

      Keep up the good work and maybe you should develop a website for this.

      Matt

      --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Swanrvr80@... wrote:
      >
      > I have a question for your group - why is Ed Giacomin held in such
      low esteem? Is it simply because he never won Cup? If that's an
      important reason then someone like an Ernie Banks shouldn't be in the
      Baseball HOF, no? Sure, kinda mixing apples and oranges here but
      still...
      >
      > Giacomin did lead the league 4 years in a row with the most starts
      and minutes played, 3 years with the most wins and 3 years with most
      shutouts. He won the Vezina and played in 6 All-Star games. Another
      point, albeit weak, is that while the Rangers did lose the Cup
      in '72, Eddie did have the most wins of any goalie in the playoffs
      that year.
      >
      > Yep, like I said, a weak point.
      >
      > I'd be curious to hear your observations about him.
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: epenaltybox@...
      > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:34 PM
      > Subject: [hockhist] Virtual World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame
      announces class of 2007
      >
      >
      > What started as a SIHR project has kept going. The virtual World
      > Wide Hockey Hall of Fame has inducted its class of 2006: Ray
      > Bourque, Paul Coffey, Slava Fetisov and Jari Kurri. Added in the
      > Builders category is Sam Pollock.
      >
      > The World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame was started as a response to the
      > low stanards of the inductees to the Hockey Hall of Fame in
      > Toronto. Recent inductees such as Bernie Federko, Clark Gillies and
      > Dick Duff cheapens the quality of player who were the ultimate elite
      > players who should continue into eternity. And unlike the Hall of
      > Fame, we are not ashamed to make our votes public.
      >
      > Our committee is composed of 20 people, most of whom are
      > researchers, writers or historians, with a few long-time fans as
      > well. Our committee is geographically diverse as well, including
      > representative voices from Europe and the former Soviet Union.
      >
      > We have five categories:
      >
      > Honoured Members - a player must be retired five years in order to
      > be selected as an Honoured Member. A player is only eligible for 15
      > elections, and then he can be nominated as an Oldtimer. A player
      > must receive four votes in order to remain on the ballot, unless he
      > is renominated. Each voter can choose five Honoured Members and
      > five Oldtimers. Not all votes are required to be used.
      >
      > Executives/Off-Ice Personnel - Each voter can choose up to three
      > people from this categeory, which includes general managers,
      > referees, coaches, league executives, etc.
      >
      > Contributors - Each voter can choose up to three people in this
      > category, which includes all people who made a lasting contribution
      > to hockey, but were generally not employed by the league or teams,
      > or they may have had a not-so-selfish incentive to make the
      > contribution.
      >
      > Builders - Each voter may select up to three builders. Our
      > definition differs from the Hockey Hall of Fame's. A Builder is
      > someone who goes above and beyond to build and develop the sport of
      > ice hockey. Each Builder must have been nominated and elected into
      > another category, and it is the only spot in our hall that has an
      > ethics clause - a player once elected as a builder can lose his
      > status. To date, we have elected only 17 builders, and I doubt
      > anyone can argue with any of them, although a valid argument can be
      > made for the exclusion of several others. Here's our list of
      > Builders:
      >
      > Patrick, Lester
      > Patrick, Frank
      > Ross, Art
      > Smythe, Conn
      > Adams, Jack
      > Hewitt, Foster
      > Taylor, Fred "Cyclone"
      > Lindsay, Ted
      > Howe, Gordie
      > Richard, Maurice
      > Orr, Bobby
      > Beliveau, Jean
      > Hull, Bobby
      > Plante, Jacques
      > Selke, Frank
      > Gretzky, Wayne
      > Pollock, Sam
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      __
      > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,
      email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Lloyd Davis
      I ll take a stab at an answer. Giacomin appeared on only one ballot, in 1983, and he garnered only one vote. There wasn t much discussion about him in
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 4, 2006
        I'll take a stab at an answer.

        Giacomin appeared on only one ballot, in 1983, and he garnered only one
        vote. There wasn't much discussion about him in particular, but there was a
        feeling at the time that we were experiencing a glut of possible inductees,
        and it was just difficult to arrive at a consensus around them.

        Here are the players on the 1983 ballot who have been inducted into the
        actual HHOF in Toronto:
        Frank Mahovlich, John Bucyk, Alex Delvecchio, Andy Bathgate, Jacques
        Laperriere, Rod Gilbert, Bert Olmstead, Gump Worsley, Harry Howell, Marcel
        Pronovost, Norm Ullman and Ed Giacomin. Also, there were three Soviet greats
        that would be worthy of some consideration: Sologubov, Ragulin and Firsov.

        Obviously, no one would have a problem finding five Hall of Fame-calibre
        players in that group. On the contrary, the problem would be _limiting
        oneself_ to five selections.

        This was compounded on subsequent ballots. In 1984, Orr, Cournoyer, Dryden
        and JC Tremblay became eligible under our criteria. In 1985, add Gordie
        Howe, Bobby Hull, Makita, Parent and Cheevers. In 1986, Esposito, Kharlamov,
        Lemaire, Mikhailov and Ratelle. In 1987, Keon and Vachon.

        So many stars, so few ballots.


        on 8/4/06 1:15 PM, Swanrvr80@... at Swanrvr80@... wrote:

        > I have a question for your group - why is Ed Giacomin held in such low esteem?

        --
        Lloyd Davis Communications
        304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
        416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
        ldavis@...
      • Lloyd Davis
        http://www.chidlovski.com/wwhhof/index.htm ... -- Lloyd Davis Communications 304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2 416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 4, 2006
          http://www.chidlovski.com/wwhhof/index.htm

          on 8/4/06 3:27 PM, mhdibiase at mhdibiase@... wrote:

          > Keep up the good work and maybe you should develop a website for this.

          --
          Lloyd Davis Communications
          304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
          416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
          ldavis@...
        • Lloyd Davis
          No need. That s the World Wide in World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame. We don t ignore figures whose fame came in Europe or outside the NHL. First of all, our
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 4, 2006
            No need. That's the "World Wide" in "World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame." We
            don't ignore figures whose fame came in Europe or outside the NHL.

            First of all, our hall includes Herb Carnegie and J-C Tremblay, a couple of
            Canadians whose plaques you won't find in Toronto.

            Europeans? How about
            Vsevolod Bobrov
            Anatoli Firsov
            Tumba Johansson
            Valeri Kharlamov
            Josef Malecek
            Alexander Maltsev
            Boris Mikhailov
            Vaclav Nedomansky
            Nikolai Sologubov
            Vladislav Tretiak
            Alexander Yakushev

            In the contributors' category, there's the Russian Foster Hewitt, Nikolai
            Ozerov. The wing dedicated to coaches, excecutives and other off-ice
            personnel includes Viktor Tikhonov, Arkady Chernyshev, and Anatoli Tarasov.

            Also, a Canadian by the name of Eddie Livingstone who did more to build
            hockey in Toronto than Harold Ballard (needless to say, we haven't enshrined
            _him_). And Howie Meeker, who _should_ be in the Hockey Hall of Fame in
            Toronto as a builder. Currently, in the contributors' section, Carl Brewer
            has worked his way up to 13 votes, just two shy of induction. For his work
            with the pension battle and his influence on hockey in Finland, among other
            achievements, he should also be a Builder in the HHOF in Toronto. They
            should've given him the square they took away from Eagleson.

            Full list of inductees here: http://www.chidlovski.com/wwhhof/summary.htm

            And year-by-year results of the balloting can be found on the site, too.


            on 8/4/06 3:27 PM, mhdibiase at mhdibiase@... wrote:

            > How about adding an international player category so that players
            > like Vladisav Tretiak be added?

            --
            Lloyd Davis Communications
            304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
            416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
            ldavis@...
          • Morey Holzman
            I love Eddie Giacomin. One of the great highlights of my youth was watching the televised (in Detroit) game at MSG when he returned to New York. To hear the
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 4, 2006
              I love Eddie Giacomin. One of the great highlights of my youth was
              watching the televised (in Detroit) game at MSG when he returned to
              New York.

              To hear the NY crowd chanting "Ed-die, Ed-die" after every save for
              the visiting Red Wings sent chills for a Detroit fan.

              But I have to ask you honestly - who woiuld you rather have:
              Giacomin or Ken Dryden? Ed-die, or Bernie Parent? Ed-die or Johnny
              Bower? Or Gump Worsley? Or Glenn Hall? Or Jacques Plante? Those
              were his contemproaries, and while Giacomin belongs in the hearts of
              every Ranger fan, he just didn't dominate the league.

              Not to belittle all-star games, but I have what's called the Vadnais
              line. Carol Vadnais played in 6 all-star games as well, yet I don't
              believe he's Hall worthy.

              Morey

              --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, Swanrvr80@... wrote:
              >
              > I have a question for your group - why is Ed Giacomin held in such
              low esteem? Is it simply because he never won Cup? If that's an
              important reason then someone like an Ernie Banks shouldn't be in
              the Baseball HOF, no? Sure, kinda mixing apples and oranges here
              but still...
              >
              > Giacomin did lead the league 4 years in a row with the most starts
              and minutes played, 3 years with the most wins and 3 years with most
              shutouts. He won the Vezina and played in 6 All-Star games.
              Another point, albeit weak, is that while the Rangers did lose the
              Cup in '72, Eddie did have the most wins of any goalie in the
              playoffs that year.
              >
              > Yep, like I said, a weak point.
              >
              > I'd be curious to hear your observations about him.
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: epenaltybox@...
              > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:34 PM
              > Subject: [hockhist] Virtual World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame
              announces class of 2007
              >
              >
              > What started as a SIHR project has kept going. The virtual World
              > Wide Hockey Hall of Fame has inducted its class of 2006: Ray
              > Bourque, Paul Coffey, Slava Fetisov and Jari Kurri. Added in the
              > Builders category is Sam Pollock.
              >
              > The World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame was started as a response to the
              > low stanards of the inductees to the Hockey Hall of Fame in
              > Toronto. Recent inductees such as Bernie Federko, Clark Gillies and
              > Dick Duff cheapens the quality of player who were the ultimate
              elite
              > players who should continue into eternity. And unlike the Hall of
              > Fame, we are not ashamed to make our votes public.
              >
              > Our committee is composed of 20 people, most of whom are
              > researchers, writers or historians, with a few long-time fans as
              > well. Our committee is geographically diverse as well, including
              > representative voices from Europe and the former Soviet Union.
              >
              > We have five categories:
              >
              > Honoured Members - a player must be retired five years in order to
              > be selected as an Honoured Member. A player is only eligible for 15
              > elections, and then he can be nominated as an Oldtimer. A player
              > must receive four votes in order to remain on the ballot, unless he
              > is renominated. Each voter can choose five Honoured Members and
              > five Oldtimers. Not all votes are required to be used.
              >
              > Executives/Off-Ice Personnel - Each voter can choose up to three
              > people from this categeory, which includes general managers,
              > referees, coaches, league executives, etc.
              >
              > Contributors - Each voter can choose up to three people in this
              > category, which includes all people who made a lasting contribution
              > to hockey, but were generally not employed by the league or teams,
              > or they may have had a not-so-selfish incentive to make the
              > contribution.
              >
              > Builders - Each voter may select up to three builders. Our
              > definition differs from the Hockey Hall of Fame's. A Builder is
              > someone who goes above and beyond to build and develop the sport of
              > ice hockey. Each Builder must have been nominated and elected into
              > another category, and it is the only spot in our hall that has an
              > ethics clause - a player once elected as a builder can lose his
              > status. To date, we have elected only 17 builders, and I doubt
              > anyone can argue with any of them, although a valid argument can be
              > made for the exclusion of several others. Here's our list of
              > Builders:
              >
              > Patrick, Lester
              > Patrick, Frank
              > Ross, Art
              > Smythe, Conn
              > Adams, Jack
              > Hewitt, Foster
              > Taylor, Fred "Cyclone"
              > Lindsay, Ted
              > Howe, Gordie
              > Richard, Maurice
              > Orr, Bobby
              > Beliveau, Jean
              > Hull, Bobby
              > Plante, Jacques
              > Selke, Frank
              > Gretzky, Wayne
              > Pollock, Sam
              >
              >
              >
              >
              _____________________________________________________________________
              ___
              > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,
              email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Swanrvr80@aol.com
              In a message dated 8/4/06 4:13:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ldavis@bellnet.ca ... Thanks. You should have some method of revisiting eligible candidates later
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 5, 2006
                In a message dated 8/4/06 4:13:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ldavis@...
                writes:


                > Obviously, no one would have a problem finding five Hall of Fame-calibre
                > players in that group. On the contrary, the problem would be _limiting
                > oneself_ to five selections.
                >
                > This was compounded on subsequent ballots. In 1984, Orr, Cournoyer, Dryden
                > and JC Tremblay became eligible under our criteria. In 1985, add Gordie
                > Howe, Bobby Hull, Makita, Parent and Cheevers. In 1986, Esposito, Kharlamov,
                > Lemaire, Mikhailov and Ratelle. In 1987, Keon and Vachon.
                >
                > So many stars, so few ballots.
                >

                Thanks. You should have some method of revisiting eligible candidates later
                on, especially during lean years. Something like a Veteran's Committee. It's
                not an even playing field if some players are left off from consideration
                simply because there's too many qualified candidates.

                Jay


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gordon Jennings
                As a fifty year die-hard Ranger fan I think it is safe to say no one on this committe loves and appreciates Eddie Giacomin more than I. Probably no other
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 5, 2006
                  As a fifty year die-hard Ranger fan I think it is safe
                  to say no one on this committe loves and appreciates
                  Eddie Giacomin more than I.

                  Probably no other player suffered more to make the NHL
                  than Eddie, I am referring to his making the
                  Providence Reds while recovering from burns to his
                  legs incurred in a fire the summer before training
                  camp.

                  But from a fan's perpective even I could not vote for
                  Eddie when we are trying to elect the Best of the Best
                  into our Hall.

                  If there was a NY Rangers HOF he would be a shoo in
                  but I think he falls a bit short when comparing him
                  to his peers.

                  I still love Eddie and if I were a GM I would have
                  been very happy to have had him as my Goalie.

                  Gord



                  anrvr80@... wrote:

                  > I have a question for your group - why is Ed
                  > Giacomin held in such low esteem? Is it simply
                  > because he never won Cup? If that's an important
                  > reason then someone like an Ernie Banks shouldn't be
                  > in the Baseball HOF, no? Sure, kinda mixing apples
                  > and oranges here but still...
                  >
                  > Giacomin did lead the league 4 years in a row with
                  > the most starts and minutes played, 3 years with the
                  > most wins and 3 years with most shutouts. He won
                  > the Vezina and played in 6 All-Star games. Another
                  > point, albeit weak, is that while the Rangers did
                  > lose the Cup in '72, Eddie did have the most wins of
                  > any goalie in the playoffs that year.
                  >
                  > Yep, like I said, a weak point.
                  >
                  > I'd be curious to hear your observations about him.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: epenaltybox@...
                  > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:34 PM
                  > Subject: [hockhist] Virtual World Wide Hockey Hall
                  > of Fame announces class of 2007
                  >
                  >
                  > What started as a SIHR project has kept going. The
                  > virtual World
                  > Wide Hockey Hall of Fame has inducted its class of
                  > 2006: Ray
                  > Bourque, Paul Coffey, Slava Fetisov and Jari Kurri.
                  > Added in the
                  > Builders category is Sam Pollock.
                  >
                  > The World Wide Hockey Hall of Fame was started as a
                  > response to the
                  > low stanards of the inductees to the Hockey Hall of
                  > Fame in
                  > Toronto. Recent inductees such as Bernie Federko,
                  > Clark Gillies and
                  > Dick Duff cheapens the quality of player who were
                  > the ultimate elite
                  > players who should continue into eternity. And
                  > unlike the Hall of
                  > Fame, we are not ashamed to make our votes public.
                  >
                  > Our committee is composed of 20 people, most of whom
                  > are
                  > researchers, writers or historians, with a few
                  > long-time fans as
                  > well. Our committee is geographically diverse as
                  > well, including
                  > representative voices from Europe and the former
                  > Soviet Union.
                  >
                  > We have five categories:
                  >
                  > Honoured Members - a player must be retired five
                  > years in order to
                  > be selected as an Honoured Member. A player is only
                  > eligible for 15
                  > elections, and then he can be nominated as an
                  > Oldtimer. A player
                  > must receive four votes in order to remain on the
                  > ballot, unless he
                  > is renominated. Each voter can choose five Honoured
                  > Members and
                  > five Oldtimers. Not all votes are required to be
                  > used.
                  >
                  > Executives/Off-Ice Personnel - Each voter can choose
                  > up to three
                  > people from this categeory, which includes general
                  > managers,
                  > referees, coaches, league executives, etc.
                  >
                  > Contributors - Each voter can choose up to three
                  > people in this
                  > category, which includes all people who made a
                  > lasting contribution
                  > to hockey, but were generally not employed by the
                  > league or teams,
                  > or they may have had a not-so-selfish incentive to
                  > make the
                  > contribution.
                  >
                  > Builders - Each voter may select up to three
                  > builders. Our
                  > definition differs from the Hockey Hall of Fame's. A
                  > Builder is
                  > someone who goes above and beyond to build and
                  > develop the sport of
                  > ice hockey. Each Builder must have been nominated
                  > and elected into
                  > another category, and it is the only spot in our
                  > hall that has an
                  > ethics clause - a player once elected as a builder
                  > can lose his
                  > status. To date, we have elected only 17 builders,
                  > and I doubt
                  > anyone can argue with any of them, although a valid
                  > argument can be
                  > made for the exclusion of several others. Here's our
                  > list of
                  > Builders:
                  >
                  > Patrick, Lester
                  > Patrick, Frank
                  > Ross, Art
                  > Smythe, Conn
                  > Adams, Jack
                  > Hewitt, Foster
                  > Taylor, Fred "Cyclone"
                  > Lindsay, Ted
                  > Howe, Gordie
                  > Richard, Maurice
                  > Orr, Bobby
                  > Beliveau, Jean
                  > Hull, Bobby
                  > Plante, Jacques
                  > Selke, Frank
                  > Gretzky, Wayne
                  > Pollock, Sam
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ________________________________________________________________________
                  > Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video
                  > search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand.
                  > Always Free.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank
                  > message to hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
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                  > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                • hockey collector
                  Jay, As a voting committee member I can tell you that there is a very simple way to place a name on the ballot. Any one of the committee members can nominate
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 5, 2006
                    Jay,

                    As a voting committee member I can tell you that there is a very simple way to place a name on the ballot. Any one of the committee members can nominate a name and that person is immediately placed on the next ballot. For example, I renominated Goldie Prodgers for the 2006 ballot. He received 4 votes.

                    It is as simple as that. If any one of the 21 committee members feels a person is worthwhile, he or she can automatically be placed on the ballot.

                    Keith Lenn, The Hockey Collector
                    hockeycollector@...
                    www.VintageIceHockey.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lloyd Davis
                    And Eddie Shack played in four. I don t put much stock in NHL all-star game appearances. ... -- Lloyd Davis Communications 304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 5, 2006
                      And Eddie Shack played in four. I don't put much stock in NHL all-star game
                      appearances.

                      on 8/5/06 1:09 AM, Morey Holzman at epenaltybox@... wrote:

                      > Not to belittle all-star games, but I have what's called the Vadnais
                      > line. Carol Vadnais played in 6 all-star games as well, yet I don't
                      > believe he's Hall worthy.

                      --
                      Lloyd Davis Communications
                      304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
                      416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
                      ldavis@...
                    • Lloyd Davis
                      Got that covered, in two ways. Any player who gets four votes or more is automatically carried over to the next year s ballot. If the player gets three votes
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 5, 2006
                        Got that covered, in two ways. Any player who gets four votes or more is
                        automatically carried over to the next year's ballot. If the player gets
                        three votes or fewer, he can still be renominated by anyone on the
                        committee.

                        Players become eligible five years after retirement, and can remain on the
                        ballot for up to 15 years. After that, if they're still not elected, there
                        is an Old-timers category in which they can be nominated.

                        The website doesn't differentiate between those players inducted on the
                        traditional ballot, and those inducted on the old-timer plan.

                        This year, the top three vote-getters in the Old-timers category were
                        Vladimir Petrov (12), Tony Esposito (11) and Jiri Holecek (11).

                        Recent inductees via the old-timer process include Jean Ratelle (2003), Norm
                        Ullman and Jacques Lemaire (2002); Marcel Pronovost and Harvey Pulford in
                        2001; Bernie Parent in 2000.


                        on 8/5/06 6:21 AM, Swanrvr80@... at Swanrvr80@... wrote:

                        > Thanks. You should have some method of revisiting eligible candidates later
                        > on, especially during lean years. Something like a Veteran's Committee.

                        --
                        Lloyd Davis Communications
                        304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
                        416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
                        ldavis@...
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