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Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

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  • RSulli7798@aol.com
    IIRC, the total goals for the team should match the totals of goals scored for players on the roster and vice versa for the GA and GAA columns for when the
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
      IIRC, the total goals for the team should match the totals of goals scored
      for players on the roster and vice versa for the GA and GAA columns for when the
      ECHL was in Nashville.

      1. The only player credited for a goal in the stats is the goal that won the
      shootout.
      2. Only one goal will be added to the GA column of the losing team.
      3. Only one goal will be added to the GF column of the winning team.
      3. The 1 goal allowed in the SO will be counted in 60 or 65 minutes (if 5
      minute OT is played).

      The stats should not be annihilated like they were for the 2 years it took to
      show OT losses.

      If the standings will show wins-losses-SO losses things will be a lot easier
      to comprehend. 2 points for the win. No points for a loss, and 1 point for a
      SO loss.

      I do wish that the 5 minute OT would have been scrapped since it usually
      turns into a 5 minute penalty kill because teams thought they had a better shot at
      winning the SO. (this was the case for ECHL games I saw in Nashville).

      Ray Sullivan


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Edwards
      ... I wish it were that simple. I think they re still giving the OT loser-point (although I ll happily stand to be corrected on that). I do wish that the 5
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
        On 7/26/05, RSulli7798@... <RSulli7798@...> wrote:
        >
        > If the standings will show wins-losses-SO losses things will be a lot
        > easier
        > to comprehend. 2 points for the win. No points for a loss, and 1 point for
        > a
        > SO loss.

        I wish it were that simple. I think they're still giving the OT loser-point
        (although I'll happily stand to be corrected on that).

        I do wish that the 5 minute OT would have been scrapped since it usually
        > turns into a 5 minute penalty kill because teams thought they had a better
        > shot at
        > winning the SO. (this was the case for ECHL games I saw in Nashville).

        That's why the IHL dumped the 5-minute OT not long after bringing in the
        shootout. The OT was a snooze because teams preferred to take their chances
        in the shootout. I'm not sure if the OT still being 4-on-4 will make a
        difference or not, but I doubt it. I suspect regular-season OT is on the
        endangered list.
        John Edwards


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • slater@alum.rpi.edu
        IIRC, the total goals for the team should match the totals of goals scored for players on the roster and vice versa for the GA and
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
          <-----Original Message----->IIRC, the total goals for the team should
          match the totals of goals scored
          for players on the roster and vice versa for the GA and GAA columns for
          when the
          ECHL was in Nashville.
          >

          No, this is not the case. Leagues that use the shootout credit the
          winning team with just one more goal for, the losing team with one more
          goal against, but on a player level those goals would be credited to the
          bench.

          I don't know how goalie numbers were affected.

          Ralph


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • TitansFan29@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:46:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, slater@alum.rpi.edu writes: No, this is not the case. Leagues that use the shootout credit
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
            In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:46:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            slater@... writes:

            No, this is not the case. Leagues that use the shootout credit the
            winning team with just one more goal for, the losing team with one more
            goal against, but on a player level those goals would be credited to the
            bench.

            I don't know how goalie numbers were affected.

            Ralph



            This has been correct for the ECHL for the past two seasons, prior to that
            the player got the goal credited to him. In the ECHL the winning goalie got
            a win and the losing goalie got a tie with the winning goal counted in his
            GAA. Only exception was that if it was a 0-0 tie going into the ShootOut both
            goalies were credited with a ShutOut,

            ~Pam
            I BELIEVE in Titans,
            2005 Kelly Cup Champions


            "Loyalty is still the same,
            Whether it win or lose the game;
            True as a dial to the sun,
            Although it be not shined upon."
            ~Samuel Butler ~Hudibras 1663
            ~020801~ ~080603~


            "Obstacles are those frightful things that you see when you take your eye
            off the goal"
            - Hannah Moore


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Morey Holzman
            John, You re probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five. More than 70% of playoff
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
              John,

              You're probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better
              served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five.
              More than 70% of playoff games are decided in the first 10 minutes
              of OT. Nothing wrong with a tie when there are only eight of them
              per team per season.

              Pro shootout arguments: decides a winner, fans on their feet

              I've been watching hockey for about 35 years now, and I've seen a
              number of reasons fans in the entire stadium have been on their
              feet: a bench clearing brawl; fans in the stands fighting; streaker
              jumping over the boards in Calgary; Lucy Lawless' top coming down
              while trying to sing the national anthem...

              None of these should be reasons why a penalty shot contest should
              dictate the winner of a game. I mean, why bother playing the first
              65 minutes. Let's just have a penalty shot contest, grab a couple
              of beers, and head home? Can you imagine how cheap the tickets can
              be since each team needs onlt four men on the roster? There'd be
              enough talent left over that Syracuse and Kamloops could compete in
              a Stanley Cup Final...

              Morey


              --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, John Edwards <jedwards80@g...>
              wrote:
              > On 7/26/05, RSulli7798@a... <RSulli7798@a...> wrote:
              > >
              > > If the standings will show wins-losses-SO losses things will be
              a lot
              > > easier
              > > to comprehend. 2 points for the win. No points for a loss, and 1
              point for
              > > a
              > > SO loss.
              >
              > I wish it were that simple. I think they're still giving the OT
              loser-point
              > (although I'll happily stand to be corrected on that).
              >
              > I do wish that the 5 minute OT would have been scrapped since it
              usually
              > > turns into a 5 minute penalty kill because teams thought they
              had a better
              > > shot at
              > > winning the SO. (this was the case for ECHL games I saw in
              Nashville).
              >
              > That's why the IHL dumped the 5-minute OT not long after bringing
              in the
              > shootout. The OT was a snooze because teams preferred to take
              their chances
              > in the shootout. I'm not sure if the OT still being 4-on-4 will
              make a
              > difference or not, but I doubt it. I suspect regular-season OT is
              on the
              > endangered list.
              > John Edwards
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • TitansFan29@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epenaltybox@yahoo.com writes: John, You re probably correct, but the NHL would have been
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                epenaltybox@... writes:

                John,

                You're probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better
                served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five.
                More than 70% of playoff games are decided in the first 10 minutes
                of OT. Nothing wrong with a tie when there are only eight of them
                per team per season.

                Pro shootout arguments: decides a winner, fans on their feet

                I've been watching hockey for about 35 years now, and I've seen a
                number of reasons fans in the entire stadium have been on their
                feet: a bench clearing brawl; fans in the stands fighting; streaker
                jumping over the boards in Calgary; Lucy Lawless' top coming down
                while trying to sing the national anthem...

                None of these should be reasons why a penalty shot contest should
                dictate the winner of a game. I mean, why bother playing the first
                65 minutes. Let's just have a penalty shot contest, grab a couple
                of beers, and head home? Can you imagine how cheap the tickets can
                be since each team needs onlt four men on the roster? There'd be
                enough talent left over that Syracuse and Kamloops could compete in
                a Stanley Cup Final...

                Morey



                I couldn't agree with you more. I have been living with the shootout for
                six years, and I still HATE it!

                ~Pam
                I BELIEVE in Titans,
                2005 Kelly Cup Champions


                "Loyalty is still the same,
                Whether it win or lose the game;
                True as a dial to the sun,
                Although it be not shined upon."
                ~Samuel Butler ~Hudibras 1663
                ~020801~ ~080603~


                "Obstacles are those frightful things that you see when you take your eye
                off the goal"
                - Hannah Moore


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William Underwood
                Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular season. ... From:
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                  Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even
                  Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                  season.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of TitansFan29@...
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:33 PM
                  To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders



                  In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                  epenaltybox@... writes:

                  John,

                  You're probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better
                  served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five.
                  More than 70% of playoff games are decided in the first 10 minutes
                  of OT. Nothing wrong with a tie when there are only eight of them
                  per team per season.

                  Pro shootout arguments: decides a winner, fans on their feet

                  I've been watching hockey for about 35 years now, and I've seen a
                  number of reasons fans in the entire stadium have been on their
                  feet: a bench clearing brawl; fans in the stands fighting; streaker
                  jumping over the boards in Calgary; Lucy Lawless' top coming down
                  while trying to sing the national anthem...

                  None of these should be reasons why a penalty shot contest should
                  dictate the winner of a game. I mean, why bother playing the first
                  65 minutes. Let's just have a penalty shot contest, grab a couple
                  of beers, and head home? Can you imagine how cheap the tickets can
                  be since each team needs onlt four men on the roster? There'd be
                  enough talent left over that Syracuse and Kamloops could compete in
                  a Stanley Cup Final...

                  Morey



                  I couldn't agree with you more. I have been living with the shootout
                  for
                  six years, and I still HATE it!

                  ~Pam
                  I BELIEVE in Titans,
                  2005 Kelly Cup Champions


                  "Loyalty is still the same,
                  Whether it win or lose the game;
                  True as a dial to the sun,
                  Although it be not shined upon."
                  ~Samuel Butler ~Hudibras 1663
                  ~020801~ ~080603~


                  "Obstacles are those frightful things that you see when you take your
                  eye
                  off the goal"
                  - Hannah Moore


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                  hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • John Edwards
                  I m not convinced that 10-minute OT would add that much time. At most, compared to 5-minute OT, it would add about 8 minutes to the length of the game. It may
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                    I'm not convinced that 10-minute OT would add that much time. At most,
                    compared to 5-minute OT, it would add about 8 minutes to the length of the
                    game. It may even shorten the average length, given that teams can't play
                    kitty-bar-the-door for 10 minutes as easily as they could for 5. It seems to
                    me that the measures taken a few years ago to speed up the game should
                    provide enough time to allow for possibly longer OT.
                    BTW, news isn't an issue on Canadian TV during the regular season anymore.
                    Aside from the few scraps that might show up on local channels (whose local
                    news would appreciate the ratings bump from an overrun) the only broadcast
                    games left are on CBC. Their Saturday doubleheader has essentially
                    eliminated the national newscast.
                    John
                    On 7/26/05, William Underwood <wausport@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even
                    > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                    > season.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of TitansFan29@...
                    > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:33 PM
                    > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    > epenaltybox@... writes:
                    >
                    > John,
                    >
                    > You're probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better
                    > served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five.
                    > More than 70% of playoff games are decided in the first 10 minutes
                    > of OT. Nothing wrong with a tie when there are only eight of them
                    > per team per season.
                    >
                    > Pro shootout arguments: decides a winner, fans on their feet
                    >
                    > I've been watching hockey for about 35 years now, and I've seen a
                    > number of reasons fans in the entire stadium have been on their
                    > feet: a bench clearing brawl; fans in the stands fighting; streaker
                    > jumping over the boards in Calgary; Lucy Lawless' top coming down
                    > while trying to sing the national anthem...
                    >
                    > None of these should be reasons why a penalty shot contest should
                    > dictate the winner of a game. I mean, why bother playing the first
                    > 65 minutes. Let's just have a penalty shot contest, grab a couple
                    > of beers, and head home? Can you imagine how cheap the tickets can
                    > be since each team needs onlt four men on the roster? There'd be
                    > enough talent left over that Syracuse and Kamloops could compete in
                    > a Stanley Cup Final...
                    >
                    > Morey
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I couldn't agree with you more. I have been living with the shootout
                    > for
                    > six years, and I still HATE it!
                    >
                    > ~Pam
                    > I BELIEVE in Titans,
                    > 2005 Kelly Cup Champions
                    >
                    >
                    > "Loyalty is still the same,
                    > Whether it win or lose the game;
                    > True as a dial to the sun,
                    > Although it be not shined upon."
                    > ~Samuel Butler ~Hudibras 1663
                    > ~020801~ ~080603~
                    >
                    >
                    > "Obstacles are those frightful things that you see when you take your
                    > eye
                    > off the goal"
                    > - Hannah Moore
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                    > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                    > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Life... loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it. (Marvin, the Paranoid
                    Android)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lloyd Davis
                    Actually, it s during the playoffs that Parson Mansbridge gets his dander up. The CBC airs its national newscast at 10 p.m. on weeknights. In the days when
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                      Actually, it's during the playoffs that Parson Mansbridge gets his dander
                      up. The CBC airs its national newscast at 10 p.m. on weeknights. In the days
                      when HNiC only carried one game, CBC would put the Saturday evening news on
                      at 11 p.m. Eastern. It's been a while, so I'm not sure what they do with
                      news now that they carry a doubleheader every Saturday.

                      The weeknight regular-season games tend to be carried over specialty cable,
                      so there's not a scheduling conflict with news.

                      There doesn't really have to be a conflict with playoff hockey, either. The
                      CBC has its own all-news channel, which runs the nightly 'cast at 10 p.m.,
                      and cable and satellite are so widely available in Canada that the
                      over-the-air network's schedule shouldn't be sacrosanct.


                      on 7/26/05 1:11 PM, William Underwood at wausport@... wrote:

                      > Even
                      > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                      > season.

                      --
                      Lloyd Davis Communications
                      304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
                      416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
                      ldavis@...
                    • William Underwood
                      True but it still is an issue with some outlets especially in the US where it is a HUGE issue! You can say it is only x minutes but ESPN doesn t see it that
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                        True but it still is an issue with some outlets especially in the US
                        where it is a HUGE issue! You can say it is only x minutes but ESPN
                        doesn't see it that way. They see a product that has not produced for
                        them asking for more time. The networks will see it even worse for
                        weekend games that many affiliates already don't want. The fact is that
                        TV folks want SHORTER games. I hear it all the time from them..."you
                        should make the games short like Olympic games" --around the 2 hour time
                        frame. A 10 minute OT will not accomplish this. Now, granted, shoot out
                        is going to add time too! But it is a gimmick that TV folks will listen
                        to. Like it or not the thing is right up their alley! I think it is
                        largely a psychological thing. It offers a certainty of resolution to
                        them.


                        Keep in mind we have 24 US teams to deal with...and for them OT is a
                        tough sell.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Lloyd Davis
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 1:31 PM
                        To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                        Actually, it's during the playoffs that Parson Mansbridge gets his
                        dander
                        up. The CBC airs its national newscast at 10 p.m. on weeknights. In the
                        days
                        when HNiC only carried one game, CBC would put the Saturday evening news
                        on
                        at 11 p.m. Eastern. It's been a while, so I'm not sure what they do with
                        news now that they carry a doubleheader every Saturday.

                        The weeknight regular-season games tend to be carried over specialty
                        cable,
                        so there's not a scheduling conflict with news.

                        There doesn't really have to be a conflict with playoff hockey, either.
                        The
                        CBC has its own all-news channel, which runs the nightly 'cast at 10
                        p.m.,
                        and cable and satellite are so widely available in Canada that the
                        over-the-air network's schedule shouldn't be sacrosanct.


                        on 7/26/05 1:11 PM, William Underwood at wausport@...
                        wrote:

                        > Even
                        > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                        > season.

                        --
                        Lloyd Davis Communications
                        304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
                        416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
                        ldavis@...



                        To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                        hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                      • Lloyd Davis
                        Yet the broadcasters are to blame. They keep inserting more and more commercial minutes into every hour, lengthening games of all descriptions. Those extended
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                          Yet the broadcasters are to blame. They keep inserting more and more
                          commercial minutes into every hour, lengthening games of all descriptions.
                          Those extended TV timeouts are brutal for those actually at the arena, too.

                          That said, I agree with you that a shootout is right up TV's alley. You've
                          got drama, and you've got that one-on-one confrontation that TV thrives on.
                          And it does provide a winner, which a certain percentage of the audience are
                          looking for. (Heck, it ought to make betting on ProLine a little easier this
                          season.)

                          on 7/26/05 1:53 PM, William Underwood at wausport@... wrote:

                          > The fact is that
                          > TV folks want SHORTER games. I hear it all the time from them..."you
                          > should make the games short like Olympic games" --around the 2 hour time
                          > frame.

                          --
                          Lloyd Davis Communications
                          304-115 Danforth Ave., Toronto, ON M4K 1N2
                          416 465 6999 /// 416 462 0230 (fax)
                          ldavis@...
                        • Morey Holzman
                          Used to be true. Shorten the intermissions by about four minutes each, and you have no problem. Now that we have the double zambonis on the ice, no problem
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                            Used to be true. Shorten the intermissions by about four minutes
                            each, and you have no problem. Now that we have the double zambonis
                            on the ice, no problem cleaning the ice. Still allows for a few
                            more beer sales.

                            Morey

                            --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@b...>
                            wrote:
                            > Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even
                            > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                            > season.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of TitansFan29@a...
                            > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:33 PM
                            > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and
                            goaltenders
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                            > epenaltybox@y... writes:
                            >
                            > John,
                            >
                            > You're probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better
                            > served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five.
                            > More than 70% of playoff games are decided in the first 10
                            minutes
                            > of OT. Nothing wrong with a tie when there are only eight of
                            them
                            > per team per season.
                            >
                            > Pro shootout arguments: decides a winner, fans on their feet
                            >
                            > I've been watching hockey for about 35 years now, and I've seen a
                            > number of reasons fans in the entire stadium have been on their
                            > feet: a bench clearing brawl; fans in the stands fighting;
                            streaker
                            > jumping over the boards in Calgary; Lucy Lawless' top coming down
                            > while trying to sing the national anthem...
                            >
                            > None of these should be reasons why a penalty shot contest should
                            > dictate the winner of a game. I mean, why bother playing the
                            first
                            > 65 minutes. Let's just have a penalty shot contest, grab a
                            couple
                            > of beers, and head home? Can you imagine how cheap the tickets
                            can
                            > be since each team needs onlt four men on the roster? There'd be
                            > enough talent left over that Syracuse and Kamloops could compete
                            in
                            > a Stanley Cup Final...
                            >
                            > Morey
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I couldn't agree with you more. I have been living with the
                            shootout
                            > for
                            > six years, and I still HATE it!
                            >
                            > ~Pam
                            > I BELIEVE in Titans,
                            > 2005 Kelly Cup Champions
                            >
                            >
                            > "Loyalty is still the same,
                            > Whether it win or lose the game;
                            > True as a dial to the sun,
                            > Although it be not shined upon."
                            > ~Samuel Butler ~Hudibras 1663
                            > ~020801~ ~080603~
                            >
                            >
                            > "Obstacles are those frightful things that you see when you take
                            your
                            > eye
                            > off the goal"
                            > - Hannah Moore
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                            > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • William Underwood
                            And the concession people will yell as will the TV folks who use how much of that intermission time for commercials? I think that we have to face that 10
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 26, 2005
                              And the concession people will yell as will the TV folks who use how
                              much of that intermission time for commercials? I think that we have to
                              face that 10 minute overtime goes in the file of "nice idea but isn't
                              going to happen".

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Morey Holzman
                              Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:28 PM
                              To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                              Used to be true. Shorten the intermissions by about four minutes
                              each, and you have no problem. Now that we have the double zambonis
                              on the ice, no problem cleaning the ice. Still allows for a few
                              more beer sales.

                              Morey

                              --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@b...>
                              wrote:
                              > Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even
                              > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                              > season.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of TitansFan29@a...
                              > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:33 PM
                              > To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and
                              goaltenders
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:25:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              > epenaltybox@y... writes:
                              >
                              > John,
                              >
                              > You're probably correct, but the NHL would have been far better
                              > served if they just let the OT last 10 minutes instead of five.
                              > More than 70% of playoff games are decided in the first 10
                              minutes
                              > of OT. Nothing wrong with a tie when there are only eight of
                              them
                              > per team per season.
                              >
                              > Pro shootout arguments: decides a winner, fans on their feet
                              >
                              > I've been watching hockey for about 35 years now, and I've seen a
                              > number of reasons fans in the entire stadium have been on their
                              > feet: a bench clearing brawl; fans in the stands fighting;
                              streaker
                              > jumping over the boards in Calgary; Lucy Lawless' top coming down
                              > while trying to sing the national anthem...
                              >
                              > None of these should be reasons why a penalty shot contest should
                              > dictate the winner of a game. I mean, why bother playing the
                              first
                              > 65 minutes. Let's just have a penalty shot contest, grab a
                              couple
                              > of beers, and head home? Can you imagine how cheap the tickets
                              can
                              > be since each team needs onlt four men on the roster? There'd be
                              > enough talent left over that Syracuse and Kamloops could compete
                              in
                              > a Stanley Cup Final...
                              >
                              > Morey
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I couldn't agree with you more. I have been living with the
                              shootout
                              > for
                              > six years, and I still HATE it!
                              >
                              > ~Pam
                              > I BELIEVE in Titans,
                              > 2005 Kelly Cup Champions
                              >
                              >
                              > "Loyalty is still the same,
                              > Whether it win or lose the game;
                              > True as a dial to the sun,
                              > Although it be not shined upon."
                              > ~Samuel Butler ~Hudibras 1663
                              > ~020801~ ~080603~
                              >
                              >
                              > "Obstacles are those frightful things that you see when you take
                              your
                              > eye
                              > off the goal"
                              > - Hannah Moore
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                              > hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links




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                            • Morey Holzman
                              So what? Most of the teams sold those rights anyway.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 27, 2005
                                So what? Most of the teams sold those rights anyway.

                                --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@b...>
                                wrote:
                                > And the concession people will yell
                              • William Underwood
                                They have to get a price for those rights correct? When it is time to lease them they want competitive bidding. Plus they are also selling merchandize and all
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 27, 2005
                                  They have to get a price for those rights correct? When it is time to
                                  lease them they want competitive bidding. Plus they are also selling
                                  merchandize and all of the new little bells and whistles in the new
                                  arenas begin to have the registers click more at intermission. MOST
                                  importantly the TV people see intermissions as the time to max out of
                                  commercials. If you cut intermission time by even two minutes odds are
                                  you lose a commercial spot.

                                  It is unlikely to happen. We hockey folks want more hockey on TV, US TV
                                  people want to minimize it.

                                  Beyond that TV folks loathe schedules screwed with. Even a successful
                                  product like the NFL has to tread lightly. This is why football doesn't
                                  go into multiple OT's or even two possession minimum rules. And as has
                                  been stated, there even has been groaning in Canada off and on about
                                  long telecasts. Hockey has been an unmitigated failure as a product in
                                  the US for TV. If US TV folks had their way we probably would play a 15
                                  minute period, have a mandatory fight then have a giant shoot out,
                                  needless to say with 20 minutes between the period and shoot out to
                                  chock full of ads...turn it into a "reality show" and get done in an
                                  hour! And one thing that they DON'T want is to cut commercial time! They
                                  would rather have the league do to 17 minute periods than to cut into
                                  their precious intermission time commercial fest.

                                  Ten minute OT is not likely...I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea.
                                  It just is not that workable in today's environment. And I won't even
                                  get into travel schedules which granted have some wriggle space or the
                                  NHLPA who right now is stinging from the CBA and is unlikely to say "OK
                                  we'll agree to more work for less money and play with shorter
                                  intermissions..." TV execs hate the idea of losing ads or adding air
                                  time, concession companies hate any potential loss of sales with a
                                  shorter intermission, the NHLPA isn't too crazy about it, and you will
                                  even get some fans scream about not enough time to hit the can and the
                                  concessions.

                                  It is like a lot of other ideas that are great from our POV as hockey
                                  folks but are just not do able due to the intrusion of the real world of
                                  commercial sport where TV execs who have seen every bit of three hockey
                                  games in their lives opinions carry more with than ours. Those opinions
                                  have check books behind them ours don't and there is based upon a bottom
                                  line that says "hockey does not sell very well, it is a niche sport that
                                  we will provide for a minority fan but as such need to minimize its
                                  impact on the rest of our network/cable outlet and maximize what meager
                                  revenue we can get (translation more ad loaded intermission time/short
                                  game)." We have pro players who want extra money for any small extra
                                  task demanded of them. We have a corporate fan who is more interested in
                                  the social aspect of the game and offering a night out than who wins or
                                  less and how they do it. And we have concession companies who buy
                                  concessions at buildings and could care less about how a game is run but
                                  rather that they have as much time as they can to monopolize people's
                                  attention and wallets.

                                  It just is the way it is, to have pro sport you need to sell the sport a
                                  bit to the 500 pound gorillas of guaranteed revenue. In the process, you
                                  make it all less about the game and more about the bottom line. Sad but
                                  true. You just hope it all balances out in the end.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of Morey Holzman
                                  Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:28 PM
                                  To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                  So what? Most of the teams sold those rights anyway.

                                  --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@b...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > And the concession people will yell




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                                • Morey Holzman
                                  I think you may have missed the point. I ve addressed every one of your concerns or league excuses, except for the NHLPA s. If you eliminate four minutes from
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 27, 2005
                                    I think you may have missed the point. I've addressed every one of
                                    your concerns or league excuses, except for the NHLPA's.

                                    If you eliminate four minutes from each intermission, you've just
                                    shortened the vast majority of the games. TV people like that. If
                                    you eliminated four minutes between periods, you have not cut into
                                    commercial time - you've cut into inane broadcast time. (Now to the
                                    ESPN studio so we can give you an NFL update - we really could do
                                    without that. Oh yeah, game's not on ESPN...)

                                    If you shorten four minutes from each intermission, you will have no
                                    problem with travel schedules at all.

                                    The vendors will scream, and I admit that I haven't seen the
                                    contracts, but I will be shocked if there is a single clause that
                                    states intermissions must be a certain length in those contracts. You
                                    have to remember that intermission length was governed way back in
                                    1911 because of how long it took to scrape the ice. Guys took
                                    shovels, like Lafleur and company did during the Heritage Classic
                                    Oldtimers Game. Talk about your obscure rules. It's been modified
                                    from time to time to deal with TV requests, especially during the
                                    playoffs.

                                    As far as the players, they'd probably go for it. It can't happen for
                                    this season, but I'm sure this would be a minor negotiation point.

                                    Morey
                                  • William Underwood
                                    No you haven t Morey...the missed commercial time! They don t want to lose that time in terms of telecasts! That inane studio time is something that the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 28, 2005
                                      No you haven't Morey...the missed commercial time! They don't want to
                                      lose that time in terms of telecasts! That "inane studio time" is
                                      something that the networks use for promos and other uses. Sponsors pay
                                      for that between period slot. It is ALL revenue time...Tell Dodge..."yep
                                      boys we want to cut that intermission show that you sponsor with your
                                      name up there x number of timers and ways down two minutes. Now we can
                                      cut out commercial time (probably one of which is your slot) or keep
                                      commercials in and still get your slot in but also other sponsors and
                                      cut the amount of times we say "Dodge intermission report" and have your
                                      logo on the screen...but we STILL want your money guys..."

                                      Of course we could have a logo flashed across the bottom of the screen
                                      during OT saying "this minute is sponsored by Dodge... and the next
                                      minute have sponsored by "Coors" etc...but that is no good because what
                                      if there is no OT? What are the sponsors paying for versus an nice pre
                                      determined between periods show!

                                      And you say "cut off 4 minutes of intermission" and it compensates FINE.
                                      Does it? What if we have an injury in OT? Broken glass? A fight? Or what
                                      if it just one of those times nobody can stay onside? Eight minutes may
                                      not equal 5 minutes in OT playing time...It STILL may be a longer
                                      telecast and with no shoot out, still nothing resolved...And if there is
                                      no OT you have just cut 8 minutes of SPOONSORED time away! That is over
                                      25% of what the sponsor paid for! And ALL intermissions have sponsors
                                      now...

                                      As for vendors, three is no clause but they will SCREAM if sales drop on
                                      CENT and if you are proposing anything that gives them that fear.

                                      Again these are not "excuses", they are just issues that are THERE. And
                                      they are part of the reason that we don't see 10 minute OT even looked
                                      at seriously. I WORKED for the Daddy of OT in the modern NHL...Marcel
                                      Aubut who came from a league that had 10 minute OT. Even he didn't have
                                      the big brass ones to push for 10 minutes in the NHL! And if there is on
                                      thing that Marcel never lacked was audacity! Don't you suppose there
                                      were issues like this that made my ex boss who generally had the manners
                                      of shark and shyness of a game show host when it came to a hot idea turn
                                      chicken?

                                      A lot of things would have to be ironed out for 10 minute OT. And of ALL
                                      of the stuff that the NHL has to cope with right now this is WAY down on
                                      the list! And I wouldn't hold my breath on it happening.

                                      And arguing with me about it does no good. I suggest that you write the
                                      various networks that televise the league and the sponsors of
                                      intermission shows. Bend their ear...it isn't my policies or "excuses"
                                      that argue against ten minute OT...they belong strictly to them...talk
                                      to them about it...that is if they even care to HEAR about hockey these
                                      days! And if they do...I doubt that they want to hear "I have a way to
                                      add 10 more minutes to the game and all they have to do is to dump
                                      commercial/sponsorship time..."

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Morey Holzman
                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:36 PM
                                      To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                      I think you may have missed the point. I've addressed every one of
                                      your concerns or league excuses, except for the NHLPA's.

                                      If you eliminate four minutes from each intermission, you've just
                                      shortened the vast majority of the games. TV people like that. If
                                      you eliminated four minutes between periods, you have not cut into
                                      commercial time - you've cut into inane broadcast time. (Now to the
                                      ESPN studio so we can give you an NFL update - we really could do
                                      without that. Oh yeah, game's not on ESPN...)

                                      If you shorten four minutes from each intermission, you will have no
                                      problem with travel schedules at all.

                                      The vendors will scream, and I admit that I haven't seen the
                                      contracts, but I will be shocked if there is a single clause that
                                      states intermissions must be a certain length in those contracts. You
                                      have to remember that intermission length was governed way back in
                                      1911 because of how long it took to scrape the ice. Guys took
                                      shovels, like Lafleur and company did during the Heritage Classic
                                      Oldtimers Game. Talk about your obscure rules. It's been modified
                                      from time to time to deal with TV requests, especially during the
                                      playoffs.

                                      As far as the players, they'd probably go for it. It can't happen for
                                      this season, but I'm sure this would be a minor negotiation point.

                                      Morey





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                                    • Morey Holzman
                                      ... Well, in terms of my understanding, it sure does. It terms of hockey actually being managed properly, if they listened to the two of us, the sport would
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                        --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@b...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > And arguing with me about it does no good.

                                        Well, in terms of my understanding, it sure does. It terms of hockey
                                        actually being managed properly, if they listened to the two of us,
                                        the sport would be a lot healthier than it is today.

                                        BTW, Aubut was not the only proponent of the 10-minute OT. Bill
                                        Torrey was a big fan as well.

                                        Morey
                                      • William Underwood
                                        True...but to convince them of that... ... From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Morey Holzman Sent: Friday, July 29,
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                          True...but to convince them of that...

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Behalf Of Morey Holzman
                                          Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 2:25 PM
                                          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                          --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "William Underwood" <wausport@b...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > > And arguing with me about it does no good.

                                          Well, in terms of my understanding, it sure does. It terms of hockey
                                          actually being managed properly, if they listened to the two of us,
                                          the sport would be a lot healthier than it is today.

                                          BTW, Aubut was not the only proponent of the 10-minute OT. Bill
                                          Torrey was a big fan as well.

                                          Morey




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                                        • mangodance
                                          ... Is there a SINGLE NFL game that ends during the TV time alotted? I can t remember the last time a game didn t run 15-30 mins over. I ve never understood
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                            William Underwood wrote:

                                            > Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even
                                            > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                                            > season.

                                            Is there a SINGLE NFL game that ends during the TV time alotted? I
                                            can't remember the last time a game didn't run 15-30 mins over. I've
                                            never understood why they just didn't schedule the extra time. I know
                                            NFL makes more money. The point is, it would be something that was
                                            uncommon (like an NFL game ending w/in their time slot), so I don't see
                                            the major problem.

                                            Ah, what do I know? I'm still reeling over being told this week that my
                                            dad decided to go back to cable TV. I was going to pay for his center
                                            ice. He got a 50" TV last summer...sigh...

                                            --
                                            <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                            Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                            <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                            Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>
                                          • mangodance
                                            ... Why not just flip a coin and go to commercial that much sooner? That way we have some finality to a dreaded tie, and it s something the simps can easily
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                              William Underwood wrote:

                                              > Now, granted, shoot out
                                              > is going to add time too! But it is a gimmick that TV folks will listen
                                              > to. Like it or not the thing is right up their alley! I think it is
                                              > largely a psychological thing. It offers a certainty of resolution to
                                              > them.

                                              Why not just flip a coin and go to commercial that much sooner? That
                                              way we have some finality to a dreaded tie, and it's something the simps
                                              can easily understand.

                                              Now... would a tie decided by a flipped coin give a point to the flipper
                                              of the coin? The person who called heads-or-tails? hmmm....

                                              --
                                              <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                              Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                              <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                              Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>
                                            • mangodance
                                              ... Yep. Unfortunately I saw mopre of those in the AHL this last season than ever before. MADDENING! --
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                                Lloyd Davis wrote:

                                                > Those extended TV timeouts are brutal for those actually at the arena, too.

                                                Yep. Unfortunately I saw mopre of those in the AHL this last season
                                                than ever before. MADDENING!

                                                --
                                                <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                                Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                                <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                                Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>
                                              • William Underwood
                                                It is a problem when the program that flows over has ratings somewhere between the Dawn Farm Report and repeats of My Mother the Car . The NFL can do about
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                                  It is a problem when the program that flows over has ratings somewhere
                                                  between the Dawn Farm Report and repeats of "My Mother the Car". The NFL
                                                  can do about anything it wants because it draws ratings and prestige to
                                                  the network...the NHL is seen as a lead weight for ratings. You asid it
                                                  yourself and found the answer...one word "ratings..."

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                  Behalf Of mangodance
                                                  Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:02 PM
                                                  To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                                  William Underwood wrote:

                                                  > Then problem with 10 minute OT is that TV people would scream. Even
                                                  > Canadian TV gets ticked when the news is delayed during the regular
                                                  > season.

                                                  Is there a SINGLE NFL game that ends during the TV time alotted? I
                                                  can't remember the last time a game didn't run 15-30 mins over. I've
                                                  never understood why they just didn't schedule the extra time. I know
                                                  NFL makes more money. The point is, it would be something that was
                                                  uncommon (like an NFL game ending w/in their time slot), so I don't see
                                                  the major problem.

                                                  Ah, what do I know? I'm still reeling over being told this week that my

                                                  dad decided to go back to cable TV. I was going to pay for his center
                                                  ice. He got a 50" TV last summer...sigh...

                                                  --
                                                  <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                                  Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                                  <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                                  Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>




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                                                • William Underwood
                                                  The TV folks would probably prefer that as it would mean less time devoted to hockey.:) They could probably even get a commemorative coin outlet to sponsor it!
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                                    The TV folks would probably prefer that as it would mean less time
                                                    devoted to hockey.:) They could probably even get a commemorative coin
                                                    outlet to sponsor it!

                                                    I know that you dislike shot outs. But they are here like it or not. Not
                                                    enough people totally disdain them to have stopped it and the TV folks
                                                    love it. You can curse, shoot, and spit but they are here and it was
                                                    predictable. We live in an age where kids would rather watch Sponge Bob
                                                    than read (as is the case probably with far too many adults), we like
                                                    our news reduced to 30 second sound bites that only scratch the surface
                                                    and reality TV has become a mania Shoot out fits fright in there. It is
                                                    compact, easy to understand, fast but flawed and has a superficial aura
                                                    of a duel. All in all it fits into classic early 21st century genre for
                                                    everything from soft core porn passed off as art and fast food being
                                                    called a cuisine...It is here, like it or not, and it was almost
                                                    inevitable.

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    Behalf Of mangodance
                                                    Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:08 PM
                                                    To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                                    William Underwood wrote:

                                                    > Now, granted, shoot out
                                                    > is going to add time too! But it is a gimmick that TV folks will
                                                    listen
                                                    > to. Like it or not the thing is right up their alley! I think it is
                                                    > largely a psychological thing. It offers a certainty of resolution to
                                                    > them.

                                                    Why not just flip a coin and go to commercial that much sooner? That
                                                    way we have some finality to a dreaded tie, and it's something the simps

                                                    can easily understand.

                                                    Now... would a tie decided by a flipped coin give a point to the flipper

                                                    of the coin? The person who called heads-or-tails? hmmm....

                                                    --
                                                    <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                                    Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                                    <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                                    Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>




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                                                  • William Underwood
                                                    Yes it is annoying but it goes back to what I said before, the commercials aren t going to away go no matter what you do to intermission or whatever. So
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 29, 2005
                                                      Yes it is annoying but it goes back to what I said before, the
                                                      commercials aren't going to away go no matter what you do to
                                                      intermission or whatever. So perhaps it is better that as many as
                                                      possible are crammed into a standard intermission giving us break time
                                                      where we can actually leave the room or our seat in the building than
                                                      have them loaded to the brim during the action..

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      Behalf Of mangodance
                                                      Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:10 PM
                                                      To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                                      Lloyd Davis wrote:

                                                      > Those extended TV timeouts are brutal for those actually at the arena,
                                                      too.

                                                      Yep. Unfortunately I saw mopre of those in the AHL this last season
                                                      than ever before. MADDENING!

                                                      --
                                                      <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                                      Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                                      <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                                      Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>




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                                                    • mangodance
                                                      Ahhh, but because it is here, does not mean that it is good enough. Pandering to the lowest common denominator with gimmickry is the stuff of which fertilizer
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 30, 2005
                                                        Ahhh, but because it is here, does not mean that it is good enough.
                                                        Pandering to the lowest common denominator with gimmickry is the stuff
                                                        of which fertilizer is made. You're correct in your memory that I view
                                                        the shootout with disgust. While I was joking about flipping the coin,
                                                        it wouldn't make any difference to me whether they used the coin-flip
                                                        instead of the shootout...same outcome... same general feeling
                                                        aftewards... game decided by cheap gimmick. I'll be headed for the
                                                        concourse.

                                                        William Underwood wrote:

                                                        > It is here, like it or not, and it was almost
                                                        > inevitable.

                                                        --
                                                        <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                                        Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

                                                        <a href="http://www.beckett.com/userpages/mangodance.html">Mangodance's
                                                        Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>
                                                      • William Underwood
                                                        I m not debating that. I m just saying that it is the sort of course things have taken and it was inevitable. You can discuss it being the lowest common
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 30, 2005
                                                          I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that it is the sort of course
                                                          things have taken and it was inevitable. You can discuss it being the
                                                          lowest common denominator like a wine connoisseur speaks of cheap
                                                          commercial wines with disdain. But given that the connoisseur market is
                                                          small in hockey and the NHL is a commercial league it has to go to the
                                                          sort of pitch for the less picky. And given that you will be in a small
                                                          minority that will actually leave the building when we see Forsberg go
                                                          in one on one versus Brodeur in shoot out (I admit it, I won't) it is a
                                                          decent gamble. Now if it was the playoffs that they were deciding that
                                                          way they would have credibility problem with the fan at large...myself
                                                          included. But you will be in the minority for regular season games. Am I
                                                          thrilled with it? No. But am I appalled? No. But then again I have been
                                                          less than thrilled with a lot of the hockey that we have watched in the
                                                          NHL for the past ten years or so. It has become FAR TOO much like
                                                          another sport that has adopted shoot out...soccer...as we watch teams
                                                          strive for the cherished "Nil-Nil" tie. Is there a better way to handle
                                                          it? Yes. I am all for a 3 point system. 1 point for regulation win, two
                                                          for OT, one for shoot out and NOINE for losers! Maybe we would see more
                                                          teams take risks...maybe...

                                                          Lowest denominator it is...from a competitive stand point. And it is a
                                                          lousy way to end a game from the purist or competitor stand point, you
                                                          bet! But from a mass entertainment it is a solution that appeals to the
                                                          genre of the more casual fan.

                                                          The minute amateurism died and profit driven leagues started you go on
                                                          this slope. Purists are always in the minority in most sports as their
                                                          appeal widens. And as Billy Martin once said "money doesn't talk...it
                                                          screams". When you reach that stage of wanting TV money and a larger
                                                          core of fans games do get compromised. To me one of the great travesties
                                                          in sport is how in soccer World Cup knock out and finals games can be
                                                          decided all too often by penalty kicks. Why? In the old days you had no
                                                          Golden Goal, no penalty kicks. There was no knock out round you had
                                                          second groups stage. And if the final was tied, you would actually do a
                                                          replay x number of days later. For the purist this is the best system.
                                                          But you can't sell 1000 dollar seats to a game that may not be a
                                                          final...TV people can't sell ad time and have proper rates for a final
                                                          that may not be the final and those knock outs are more dramatic than
                                                          another tie infested group stage. So which system wins? The world's most
                                                          followed sporting event is now an event that is at least to a point
                                                          driven by your lowest denominator. Many rugby purists dislike the Super
                                                          12 (now 14) system of bonus points for tries scored and for staying
                                                          close to your opponent in the final score. But Rupert Murdoch did not
                                                          pay big money to SANZAR for low scoring matches that would not sell as
                                                          well especially in rugby league mad Australia. There are Cricket fans
                                                          that have utter disdain for Limited Overs....the short version of the
                                                          game that is high scoring and only takes a few hours rather than DAYS to
                                                          play. Yet this is the format for the Cricket World Cup. No endless
                                                          series of home and home 3 or 5 day internationals...that would lose
                                                          interest from a general public that likes things cut and dried
                                                          FAST...everything from news, to hamburgers, to wars to court
                                                          appointees...we live in a society with the attention span of a three
                                                          year old and about the same desire for simplicity. And if sport relied
                                                          on purists...well the bottom line would reflect that...from sponsors, TV
                                                          rights and not to mention less of the social set that go to a sport 90%
                                                          for social reasons 10 % for being fans and will gladly flash out 100
                                                          bucks for each ticket just to impress people...

                                                          It's just the way things are. We can scream about it but it does as much
                                                          good as telling kids, "play computer games and watch TV less and read
                                                          more",
                                                          or "take your time and go out into a GOOD lunch, not a fast one" or to
                                                          "spend more time reading a few books on a subject before you formulate
                                                          an opinion instead of just listening to one slanted talk radio station
                                                          or on the other side of the coin an equally slanted public TV
                                                          documentary". It is the times that we live in and like any other they
                                                          have good and bad sides. But look at the good side of the new
                                                          millennium...today you can buy Center Ice and when the dreaded shoot out
                                                          comes on, if you hate it THAT BAD, just flip over to another game! On
                                                          the other side you will have to cope with shoot outs existing. Good and
                                                          bad, such is life.



                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: hockhist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockhist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                          Behalf Of mangodance
                                                          Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:28 AM
                                                          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [hockhist] Re: Shootout stats for skaters and goaltenders

                                                          Ahhh, but because it is here, does not mean that it is good enough.
                                                          Pandering to the lowest common denominator with gimmickry is the stuff
                                                          of which fertilizer is made. You're correct in your memory that I view
                                                          the shootout with disgust. While I was joking about flipping the coin,
                                                          it wouldn't make any difference to me whether they used the coin-flip
                                                          instead of the shootout...same outcome... same general feeling
                                                          aftewards... game decided by cheap gimmick. I'll be headed for the
                                                          concourse.

                                                          William Underwood wrote:

                                                          > It is here, like it or not, and it was almost
                                                          > inevitable.

                                                          --
                                                          <a href="http://mangodance.tripod.com/bgh/bghockey.htm">Bluegrass
                                                          Hockey: Celebrating hockey in the Commonwealth</a>

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                                                          Minor & European Hockey Trade Page: Traders WANTED!!!</a>




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                                                        • mangodance
                                                          ... I speak of it as though it were the Night Train Express, Ripple, or Boone s Farm of wines . But I don t think it is a connoisseur issue at all. I think
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 30, 2005
                                                            William Underwood wrote:
                                                            > I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that it is the sort of course
                                                            > things have taken and it was inevitable. You can discuss it being the
                                                            > lowest common denominator like a wine connoisseur speaks of cheap
                                                            > commercial wines with disdain.

                                                            I speak of it as though it were the Night Train Express, Ripple, or
                                                            Boone's Farm of "wines". But I don't think it is a connoisseur issue at
                                                            all. I think it is a core fan issue.

                                                            > Lowest denominator it is...from a competitive stand point. And it is a
                                                            > lousy way to end a game from the purist or competitor stand point, you
                                                            > bet! But from a mass entertainment it is a solution that appeals to the
                                                            > genre of the more casual fan.

                                                            Which is exactly what has been pissing off the faithful for some
                                                            time...so much consideration for those who might buy a hockey ticket or
                                                            two that those of us going to games constantly and those of us that are
                                                            STHs are taken for granted. This doesn't sound like the year of the
                                                            fan...it's sounding more like business as usual. Gimmickry is not the
                                                            reward fans are looking for and it ultimately cheapens the sport. Were
                                                            I president, I would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against
                                                            shootouts. <grin>

                                                            > And if sport relied
                                                            > on purists...well the bottom line would reflect that...from sponsors, TV
                                                            > rights and not to mention less of the social set that go to a sport 90%
                                                            > for social reasons 10 % for being fans and will gladly flash out 100
                                                            > bucks for each ticket just to impress people...

                                                            Why does one need to be labelled as a "purist" because he sees gimmickry
                                                            as the cheap plastic crap it is? I'm definately a rabid fan, but
                                                            consider myself more of a middle-of-the-roader. However, just because
                                                            many of us don't want to see the sport turned into hollow pagentry it
                                                            doesn't put us at the extreme.

                                                            > It's just the way things are. We can scream about it but it does as much
                                                            > good as telling kids, "play computer games and watch TV less and read
                                                            > more",
                                                            > or "take your time and go out into a GOOD lunch, not a fast one" or to
                                                            > "spend more time reading a few books on a subject before you formulate
                                                            > an opinion instead of just listening to one slanted talk radio station
                                                            > or on the other side of the coin an equally slanted public TV
                                                            > documentary". It is the times that we live in and like any other they
                                                            > have good and bad sides.

                                                            However, a trickle of a voice comes up in favor of a shootout and those
                                                            voices are heeded?

                                                            I do accept the fact that while it cheapens a perfectly decent game, the
                                                            NHL has decided the shootout is for them. I've seen it in three other
                                                            leagues, and I've been witness to them for roughly 15 years. They
                                                            sucked then...and they'll suck in the NHL. It doesn't mean I gotta like
                                                            them, nor does it mean I'll go softly. In fact, I may make the pitch to
                                                            fans and the league to initiate the coin-flip. It's just as
                                                            meaningless, it would take less TV time (networks gotta love that),
                                                            wouldn't ruin the stats, and folks could get to their cars
                                                            quicker...seems like everyone wins, eh?

                                                            Anyway, you're OK with it...and that's cool. You realize I'm not...cool
                                                            too. Ultimately, if it happens with any frequency, I'll finally get to
                                                            start saving more money for retirement. ;)

                                                            Coin-flip in 2006-2007!!!
                                                          • William Underwood
                                                            ... Boone s Farm of wines . But I don t think it is a connoisseur issue at ... Most core fans that I have talked to don t see it as so repugnant. Nor do most
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jul 30, 2005
                                                              >> I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that it is the sort of course
                                                              > things have taken and it was inevitable. You can discuss it being the
                                                              > lowest common denominator like a wine connoisseur speaks of cheap
                                                              >> commercial wines with disdain.

                                                              >I speak of it as though it were the Night Train Express, Ripple, or
                                                              Boone's Farm of "wines". But I don't think it is a connoisseur issue at

                                                              >all. I think it is a core fan issue.

                                                              Most core fans that I have talked to don't see it as so repugnant. Nor
                                                              do most pools find it that way.

                                                              >> Lowest denominator it is...from a competitive stand point. And it is
                                                              a
                                                              > lousy way to end a game from the purist or competitor stand point, you
                                                              > bet! But from a mass entertainment it is a solution that appeals to
                                                              the
                                                              >> genre of the more casual fan.

                                                              >Which is exactly what has been pissing off the faithful for some
                                                              time...so much consideration for those who might buy a hockey ticket or
                                                              two that those of us going to games constantly and those of us that are
                                                              STHs are taken for granted. This doesn't sound like the year of the
                                                              fan...it's sounding more like business as usual. Gimmickry is not the
                                                              reward fans are looking for and it ultimately cheapens the sport. Were
                                                              I president, I would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against
                                                              >shootouts. <grin>

                                                              Again how many are likely to stop watching due to shoot out? I doubt
                                                              very many. Plus shoot out has been used by a plethora of leagues over
                                                              the past ten years and change. It is not all that new.

                                                              >> And if sport relied
                                                              > on purists...well the bottom line would reflect that...from sponsors,
                                                              TV
                                                              > rights and not to mention less of the social set that go to a sport
                                                              90%
                                                              > for social reasons 10 % for being fans and will gladly flash out 100
                                                              >> bucks for each ticket just to impress people...

                                                              >Why does one need to be labelled as a "purist" because he sees
                                                              gimmickry
                                                              >as the cheap plastic crap it is?

                                                              Again it depends upon what one calls a "gimmick". I have seen shoot outs
                                                              at various levels of hockey implemented for every reason from ice time
                                                              considerations at the prep level to entertaining the casual fan in the
                                                              minor pros. One could call overtime a gimmick. You could call ditching
                                                              the red line a gimmick. Four on four overtime would be a CLINCH for a
                                                              gimmick by the definition of deciding the game on how it is played.

                                                              And I don't know that the word purist should be taken as an offense. To
                                                              me it is someone who appreciates the pure game in its basic traditional
                                                              form ands doesn't like to see it changed. I wo0uld say that I am purist
                                                              to a certain degree.

                                                              > I'm definately a rabid fan, but
                                                              consider myself more of a middle-of-the-roader. However, just because
                                                              many of us don't want to see the sport turned into hollow pagentry it
                                                              >doesn't put us at the extreme.

                                                              I'm not so sure that this fits that category. It is not as if the game
                                                              is being decided all of the time by shoot out. Nor are they going right
                                                              to it. No title will be decided by it. To me the Olympic rule that puts
                                                              it in for the playoffs is more of an example of "pagentry".

                                                              >> It's just the way things are. We can scream about it but it does as
                                                              much
                                                              > good as telling kids, "play computer games and watch TV less and read
                                                              > more",
                                                              > or "take your time and go out into a GOOD lunch, not a fast one" or to
                                                              > "spend more time reading a few books on a subject before you formulate
                                                              > an opinion instead of just listening to one slanted talk radio station
                                                              > or on the other side of the coin an equally slanted public TV
                                                              > documentary". It is the times that we live in and like any other they
                                                              >> have good and bad sides.

                                                              >However, a trickle of a voice comes up in favor of a shootout and those

                                                              >voices are heeded?

                                                              More than a trickle...this has been looked at for years. More than MOST
                                                              of the proposals that we saw for rule changes. It has been actually done
                                                              for longer. There have been polls done everywhere form private polls to
                                                              very public ones about rule changes on THN on TSN etc. Even the WHG did
                                                              a poll on their old site. Oddly enough shoot out has done rather well in
                                                              them. Few people were radically opposed to the idea. And the sort of
                                                              folks who even knew there was a WHA or read THN much less respond to a
                                                              poll by them are generally folks who are pretty serious fans...

                                                              >I do accept the fact that while it cheapens a perfectly decent game,
                                                              the
                                                              NHL has decided the shootout is for them. I've seen it in three other
                                                              leagues, and I've been witness to them for roughly 15 years. They
                                                              sucked then...and they'll suck in the NHL. It doesn't mean I gotta like

                                                              >them, nor does it mean I'll go softly.

                                                              Like I say...on Center Ice there are about tejn games a night...if you
                                                              don't like it flip the channel!

                                                              >In fact, I may make the pitch to
                                                              fans and the league to initiate the coin-flip. It's just as
                                                              meaningless, it would take less TV time (networks gotta love that),
                                                              wouldn't ruin the stats, and folks could get to their cars
                                                              >quicker...seems like everyone wins, eh?

                                                              Not really. I think you are dramatizing the opposition a bit. I have
                                                              talked to a lot of people. Most have no issue with it with the caveat
                                                              "not for playoffs", not many are to go to war over it. You can pitch all
                                                              you want but it is not likely to have much of an impact...

                                                              >Anyway, you're OK with it...and that's cool. You realize I'm
                                                              not...cool
                                                              too. Ultimately, if it happens with any frequency, I'll finally get to
                                                              >start saving more money for retirement. ;)

                                                              I accept it and if it even helps to open the game up even a little as a
                                                              deterrent it can't be all that bad. Plus can it be a little bit of fun?
                                                              Sure, as long as no title is directly on the line. Speaking of which, I
                                                              take it you do watch Olympic hockey? Those folks even go as far to award
                                                              gold medals after a team wins in shot out. Do you boycott the Olympics?

                                                              It will probably be about the same as we see in the minors. Have you
                                                              stopped going to those games? Have many people left the building at the
                                                              start of shoot out? Do many not go because of it?

                                                              >Coin-flip in 2006-2007!!!

                                                              They'll need a carpet, the coin would sink into the ice if it got
                                                              lost...:)





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