Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: USHL, Junior hockey

Expand Messages
  • goaliedave
    Many thanks to John, Marc and Bill for your insight... that was exactly what I was looking for! One major gap in my understanding was that the US kids were
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 31, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Many thanks to John, Marc and Bill for your insight... that was exactly what
      I was looking for! One major gap in my understanding was that the US kids
      were really at a disadvantage with the Canaian Tier 2 grads who are, as you
      say, a couple of years older and have a couple of years better hockey under
      their belt as well.

      I appreciate that the 'ranking' of the junior leagues is subject to debate
      and change so that they is no definitive answer... but I have a few more
      questions. If the USHL and NAHL are junior A and the EJHL is Junior C....
      where does the Empire Jr B Hockey League fit in? The team I looked at,
      Binghamton Jr. Senators, trumpet the fact that 2 of their guys will "Move
      up" to play in the EJHL, and that 2 more are "moving up" to ACHA D2 or D3
      college hockey. They also have a Binghamton Jr. C Senators affiliate which
      plays in the "Mid-Atlantic development League".

      Disregarding the whole classification debacle, it seems as though a nice
      development path is emerging for US kids, if they can start at 15 in a
      regional junior league, then have various Junior A/D1 college/D2 college
      options , they soon won't have to leave for Canadian Major Junior hockey at
      all. Is the number of USA kids in Canadian Junior decreasing?

      Also, the junior teams are affilated not only with various minor pro teams,
      but also with minor hockey associations... all the "Southern Tier Hockey
      Association" travel teams for example are called "Junior Senators"... makes
      for great marketing for the minor pro teams. And a boost for the kids too.

      Being North America, these 'affilated' teams all have different owners and
      so are not like the club teams in Europe. Hopefully the suits can put it all
      together to give the kids the best development opportunity.

      Thanks again for the input, I thoroughly enjoyed spending an hour learning
      about the US junior system. Please post any news of leagues merging. One
      funny note... the domain name ejhl.com is apparantly available for only
      US$3450. I have a feeling they'll be sticking with easternjunior.com.

      Dave in Whitby
      Now adding the Binghamton Junior Senators to his hockey travel schedule...
    • William Underwood
      ... debate and change so that they is no definitive answer... but I have a few more questions. If the USHL and NAHL are junior A and the EJHL is Junior C....
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 31, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        >I appreciate that the 'ranking' of the junior leagues is subject to
        debate
        and change so that they is no definitive answer... but I have a few more
        questions. If the USHL and NAHL are junior A and the EJHL is Junior
        C....
        where does the Empire Jr B Hockey League fit in? The team I looked at,
        Binghamton Jr. Senators, trumpet the fact that 2 of their guys will
        "Move
        up" to play in the EJHL, and that 2 more are "moving up" to ACHA D2 or
        D3
        >college hockey.

        WELL below the EJHL in terms of caliber. Let me put it this way, we have
        a team in my area in the Empire League, typically one or two are
        POSSIBLE EJHL prospects. It is a league where it is fine to play in when
        you are young and THEN move on to one of the better leagues. Otherwise
        you are looking at college club level hockey (this is what the ACHA
        plays, no scholarship/non varsity status hockey where you do it more or
        less for fun) and not even the best of that level. Top teams like Penn
        State often take USHL or EJHL lesser lights for even that level.

        Anything outside of the USHL, NAHL, or EJHL is non starter to really
        advance to college hockey. Even the kid that San Jose took from junior b
        this year is a guy that most college people I know say should go to the
        USHL next...

        It is really low level stuff...about comparable to rec hockey or not so
        great high school hockey, the places where the kids that can't cut it in
        tier two or junior B play in Canada. You play there when you are 16 or
        17 then get OUT if you really want to play college hockey.

        >They also have a Binghamton Jr. C Senators affiliate which
        >plays in the "Mid-Atlantic development League".

        The MAD is a quasi midget league for young juniors.

        >Disregarding the whole classification debacle, it seems as though a
        nice
        development path is emerging for US kids, if they can start at 15 in a
        regional junior league, then have various Junior A/D1 college/D2 college
        options , they soon won't have to leave for Canadian Major Junior hockey
        at
        >all. Is the number of USA kids in Canadian Junior decreasing?


        No. Nor will it. Major junior will always be the fast track to the pros.
        You don't; even get into a college program until nearly age 20 and by
        the time that you are done, junior grads have two or even three years
        pro under their belt. And this doesn't even mention the fact that they
        have their signing bonuses gaining interest in the bank while NHL teams
        wait and see if th7ey will even bother to sing a college kid. In junior
        they have a one year period, in college they can just bag you if you
        fail to live up to expectations after a year or two...

        Actually the level of play in college is going down. Not only are there
        too many programs but when hockey card money came into play in the early
        90's we began to see less and less top guys take that route. Plus the
        Euro draft came into things. I used to scout college in the mid 80's and
        can honestly say that there were a few prospects for the NHL and AHL
        almost every game. Now, it is a mecca for AA level recruiting, you know
        that the vast majority of kids will end up there. Today scouting for
        minor pro teams I have very few guys that I cross off as unsignable.

        Actually we see more Americans than ever going major junior, a lot of
        top kids have figured out the benefits


        >Also, the junior teams are affilated not only with various minor pro
        teams,

        No they are not, it is strictly forbidden by NCAA rules. They use their
        names but this as far as it goes...

        >but also with minor hockey associations... all the "Southern Tier
        Hockey
        Association" travel teams for example are called "Junior Senators"...
        makes
        >for great marketing for the minor pro teams. And a boost for the kids
        too.

        The affiliations vary with local associations. Most of these teams are
        owned by an owner who collects tuition off of the kids unless you are A
        level. In some leagues, like the Met, owning a junior team automatically
        entitles you to own teams all the way down. Sometimes a building or an
        association could own a team. But it all comes down to the same things,
        kids pay to try out to pay to play if they make it!

        >Being North America, these 'affilated' teams all have different owners
        and
        so are not like the club teams in Europe. Hopefully the suits can put it
        all
        >together to give the kids the best development opportunity.

        Well there is little hope of that...too many egos and too many hands in
        the pocket and too little caring about the kids or the hockey. A CLASSIC
        story of this is the local Met league here. About 6 years back I tried
        to put an EJHL team down here with the logic that kids who are leaving
        the area tp play better hockey could stay at home with the same result.
        Good for the kids, good for hockey...bad for the egos of the gang that
        lines their pockets via the Met League who screamed bloody murder! Why?
        There is this motto "I'm all in favor of better hockey for the area but
        only as long as I do it and I', not going to do it." They even screamed
        when a friend of mine put a Empire League team here! He couldn't get a
        franchise in their league because of a DORMANT team sitting in his area
        so he went to the Empire. Now all he was doing was giving kids a chance
        tom play junior that wouldn't have gotten it...good for kids right? But
        the Met league gets no MONEY out of that so they tried to boycott his
        getting officials etc.

        Now fast forward to today...the Metro moose of the CEHL come into the
        area and tout themselves as junior A. Well they can do that as they are
        not a USA Hockey team. They also have a sponsor so kids DON'T PAY A
        DIME...what does the Met League do? Embrace them? No. Ignore them and
        figure they will fold under the tremendous costs? No, their egos
        couldn't stand that!. They form a new junior league that they called
        junior A until USA Hockey came down on them like a ton of bricks for
        calling a league that was to charge nearly 6 grand (5500 more than you
        are allowed at A) to players to play in it and be about junior F
        level...so the league finally plays...and people are PISSED as it is the
        same junior B stuff they were sold in the past classified as junior C
        and the junior b teams well they either looked more like C or were
        better than the teams in the new league! I was at a game with a USHL
        scout looking at kids for the OHL at a tourney this winter. We were
        watching a junior B game and a high ranking Met league official asks
        "what do you guys think of the other league"...my buddy nudged me and
        says "how long were we over there"...I replied "about 35 seconds" and
        wasn't exaggerating that much. The official shrugged and sighed and said
        "it's a work in progress". I almost asked "to what"...

        We now have an EJHL team down here. It took a while and for the EJHL to
        evolve a little bit since I applied. Do they get supported or embraced
        as a route up? After all they have to ice 70% of their line up from the
        Atlantic District, meaning locals, no more than 30% can be out of New
        England or wherever...HELL NO! We see the Met League take a few junior B
        sides in from New England and trying to hatch a new league which would
        try to entice EJHL teams to defect...

        Then we see the battles over tier one and tier two...

        Hockey is an incidental here, egos are paramount along with money. As
        opposed to trying to find ways to not squander the somewhat limited
        hockey assets that we have here and try to increase the number of
        QUALITY players, we are content to serve the abundant egos in the game
        first and foremost and increase the larger and thus more lucrative rec
        player market.

        Sorry to spout off but all the incredible waste of talent and really
        poor treatment of many a player gets my ire up as a scout that knows a
        lot of these kids. The lies that they are told (one local crap
        merchant/hockey entrepreneur is actually telling kids that it violates
        NCAA eligibility rules to play junior when you still could be playing
        midget...in which case gee I guess about 70 % of D I is illegal and the
        NCAA is just blind...why...he owns a midget team), the amount of crap
        that goes on in their development is flat out sad! I also know some GOOD
        people in the business who actually DO try to help kids and see them end
        up on the short end to the egos latest silly idea get ripped every time.

        >Thanks again for the input, I thoroughly enjoyed spending an hour
        learning
        about the US junior system. Please post any news of leagues merging. One
        funny note... the domain name ejhl.com is apparantly available for only
        >US$3450. I have a feeling they'll be sticking with easternjunior.com.

        We shall see. A business partner of mine is now on the junior board (one
        of the good guys) and they have meetings this week...

        >Now adding the Binghamton Junior Senators to his hockey travel schedule

        I don't know if I'd do that Dave! At least go to a UHL game while you
        are in town...the level is pretty low...



        To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
        hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.