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Re: [hockhist] Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks

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  • Dana Shima
    ... From: Martin Poitras To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:55 PM Subject: [hockhist] Lasts
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Martin Poitras" <martin@...>
      To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:55 PM
      Subject: [hockhist] Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks


      > Hi guys
      >
      > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL without
      a
      > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to adopt
      the
      > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?
      >
      > Martin

      Bobby Perreault was still maskless as of the 73-74 season according to the
      LA Herald Examiner (and would have played a game when called up to the last
      season's Sharks had he not gotten injured.)

      Dana

      PS
      A belated thanks to Dave S for the research on Saltair. I am always curious
      how hockey and ice skating in general started in non traditional areas.
    • John Hopkins
      Brown may be unique in retiring without ever wearing a mask. Most of the other holdouts at least adopted one late in their career. Worsley wore one in his
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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        Brown may be unique in retiring without ever wearing a mask. Most of the
        other holdouts at least adopted one late in their career. Worsley wore one
        in his final season, and even Johnny Bower wore one at the very end of his
        career. Why they would have suddenly decided it was a good idea then is an
        interesting question.

        A lot of the conversion to the mask in the NHL seems to have been in the
        1969-70 season. That's when Vachon, Roy Edwards and Crozier started wearing
        them. A couple of very late converts were Bruce Gamble and Ed Giacomin, who
        waited until the 1970-71 season.

        An interesting case is Cesare Maniago. Initially in his time with the North
        Stars he only wore his mask when playing against the Black Hawks, no doubt
        due to the B. Hull factor. But by 69-70 he appears to have used it all the
        time.

        John Hopkins
        Toronto

        At 11:46 PM 29/02/2004 -0500, you wrote:
        >In a message dated 2/29/2004 9:55:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        >martin@... writes:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi guys
        > >
        > > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL without a
        > > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to
        > adopt the
        > > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?
        > >
        > > Martin
        >
        >Worsley was certainly one of the last to not wear it. He was terrified of
        >flying and used to take trains, but wasn't scared enough of Bobby Hull's
        >slapshot
        >to don a mask. Go figure.
        >
        >Giacomin first donned a mask around 1970 after a decade or so of going
        >without one. As I recall, that was a significant turning point for NHL
        >goalies, many
        >of whom finally adopted masks after long careers without them. Glenn Hall was
        >also a long-time holdout. Roy Edwards didn't wear one while with the Red
        >Wings in the late 60s. Bower never wore one, as I recall.
        >
        >Z. Peter Mitchell
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
        >hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • William Underwood
        Simple, most found the early masks uncomfortable and limited their vision... As far as cages go...oddly enough I find that when you give the guys the chance to
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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          Simple, most found the early masks uncomfortable and limited their
          vision...

          As far as cages go...oddly enough I find that when you give the guys the
          chance to not wear them they don't. Lat year, USA Hockey sent out a memo
          telling us that we can no longer tell players to wear full facial
          protection or not to past age 18. The logic is that you are legally
          VULNERABLE either way. Say a visor shattered into an eye (unlikely) or a
          cage is pushed back causing a bad cut or a nose injury which is VERY
          possible you are just as liable as if you told a kid NOT to wear
          protection and he lost an eye or broke his nose or something. For my
          summer league I have always brought the special waiver form for my
          seniors as I never forced guys to wear full protection at that age,
          after all I have the odd minor pro playing! It always was surprising how
          many guys would sign it, even college players.
          Now I have to do it at the junior level too. And let's put it this
          way...I have to ask my registrar for more forms!

          A HUGE percentage of guys want to ditch facial protection as soon as
          they are 18! For most of them it is macho stuff. For others, well they
          just don't like the cage. Honestly, I always HATED the cage! It bothered
          my vision, it was able to be grabbed or knocked and frankly I always
          valued my face less then my neck...no Hollywood folks were exactly all
          that concerned about my looks so...on the other hand the thought of a
          neck injury from a cage getting grabbed always bugged me! Now I did wear
          a VISOR. My biggest complaint was that they fogged up BADLY in those
          days. It isn't as bad now.
          But I think the cage will never be that popular among players, the visor
          may get more popular. Then again, ECHL guys HATE IT! In fact the league
          is thinking about bagging them for next year! And most of these guys
          have played with the visor and/or cage for most if not all of their
          amateur careers!

          These things don't go over very well with players!

          Now the goalie mask is another matter. I think it is largely the product
          of the banana blade. The curved stick changed the dynamics of things.
          Guys were suddenly blasting away these knuckle balls especially off the
          point through screens that they started to feel unprotected. Remember
          the goalie HAS to stand in front of a shot and try to block it, no one
          else does...in fact sometimes it is wise to not even try it as the odds
          of a screen of deflection are more than a clean block, plus you catch
          the shot early on in the trajectory when it is more predictable and
          generally low to the ice. Goalies lack that luxury! You are allowed to
          shoot as high as you want, there are rules against elbows or sticks
          getting high so there is a de limiter to that. There is none for head
          hunting goalies! So there really is a limit to the analogy.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: John Matthew IV [mailto:john.matthew@...]
          Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:12 PM
          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hockhist] Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks


          Martin Poitras wrote:

          > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL
          without
          a
          > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to
          adopt
          the
          > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?

          This topic fascinates me. Has anyone asked Andy, "WHAT THE HELL WERE
          YOU
          THINKING?"

          I cannot imagine playing hockey without a full visor and cage. Being a
          goaltender with nothing to protect your face is inconceivable. I would
          like
          to read (or perhaps write) what the goaltenders of the era were
          thinking.

          Where is Andy these days?

          John Matthew IV



          To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
          hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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        • htl goaliedave
          John, I think you are correct to link your thoughts to the visor issue. I started playing goal in 1964. Our league in Nepean then played outdoors, and the
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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            John,
            I think you are correct to link your thoughts to the visor issue. I started
            playing goal in 1964. Our league in Nepean then played outdoors, and the
            goalies got the basic baseball style mask and the stinkiest old leather pads
            and gloves. As others have said, until the banana blade and slapshots became
            commonplace, and they started to grow shooters bigger in size... getting hit
            in the head could be avoided. I've talked to a lot of the old goalies and
            they all say the same thing... it wasn't too bad because you just moved out
            of the way and if the puck went in, your team understood. Kind of like
            playing 3rd base or pitcher with a line drive coming... you don't count on
            the guy putting his body in front of each one, so if it results in a run now
            and then who cares.

            Goalies were reluctant to switch because of the Toe Blake factor... being
            called wimps for putting it on.... the same as the visor arguement now. I
            tried to play once without my mask, about 1971 I would say. There was a face
            off in our end with a second left in the game (hard to say exactly as it was
            before digital clocks) . I put my mask on the net and during a stoppage so
            the girls could see me or some other 13 year old reason. The coach yelled at
            me to put it on so I did and of course their centre rang one off my mask
            with a shot from the faceoff so he was right. If I was allowed, I would play
            today without a mask. I used to play without shoulder pads if I forgot them,
            I'd just stuff my jeans over my shoulders and under my sweater. I played
            without a belly pad once... big deal, in those days it was a thin piece of
            felt anyway. I went to hockey school out of town once and forgot my trapper,
            so I used a baseball glove instead... which left my wrist exposed among
            other things. It was just the way we approached our craft. I remember in
            1971 wearing a thin clear plastic 'mask' and a guy took a slapshot from the
            slot and hit me in the unprotected throat... I just kept playing. The most
            important thing about being a goalie is having tons of confidence and no
            fear. If I was asked to play in the NHL and told I could only have leg pads
            and a stick I would do it. You rarely get hit in the head with the puck and
            broken bones and bruises heal. If a goalie is worried about getting hurt he
            is in the wrong position. I do wear all the pads now, but circa 1990
            versions, not the 'body armour' most wear today. They must be the same guys
            who spend $300 for the latest driver to improve their game. I've never once
            thought about my equipment playing goal because I know I am stopping the
            puck whatever I am wearing.

            Macho enough for you? :) Seriously, I did want to give my opinion that it
            was definitely a macho / education issue just like visors. Certainly the
            visors will come just like the masks and helmets. At the latest it will come
            when the insurance companies require it.... and the way they are cracking
            down on other insurance risks, it won't be long.

            Dave in Whitby



            > This topic fascinates me. Has anyone asked Andy, "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU
            > THINKING?"
            > I cannot imagine playing hockey without a full visor and cage. Being a
            > goaltender with nothing to protect your face is inconceivable. I would
            like
            > to read (or perhaps write) what the goaltenders of the era were thinking.
            > John Matthew IV
          • John Serrati
            ... In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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              At 10:03 PM 01/03/2004, htl goaliedave wrote:
              >If I was allowed, I would play
              >today without a mask.

              In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
              no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
              goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

              It would be strange, but if one thinks about it, the NHL doesn't need a
              formal rule today (presuming one doesn't exist) as going maskless or
              cageless would never don on most guys.

              John


              Dr John Serrati
              Associate Prof. of History and Classics
              John Abbott College
              Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec
              H9X 3L9
              Canada

              (514) 457-6610 ext. 5638
            • John Serrati
              ... In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the goalies
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                At 10:03 PM 01/03/2004, htl goaliedave wrote:
                >If I was allowed, I would play
                >today without a mask.

                In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                It would be strange, but if one thinks about it, the NHL doesn't need a
                formal rule today (presuming one doesn't exist) as going maskless or
                cageless would never don on most guys.

                John


                Dr John Serrati
                Associate Prof. of History and Classics
                John Abbott College
                Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec
                H9X 3L9
                Canada

                (514) 457-6610 ext. 5638
              • John Serrati
                ... In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the goalies
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                  At 10:03 PM 01/03/2004, htl goaliedave wrote:
                  >If I was allowed, I would play
                  >today without a mask.

                  In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                  no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                  goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                  It would be strange, but if one thinks about it, the NHL doesn't need a
                  formal rule today (presuming one doesn't exist) as going maskless or
                  cageless would never don on most guys.

                  John


                  Dr John Serrati
                  Associate Prof. of History and Classics
                  John Abbott College
                  Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec
                  H9X 3L9
                  Canada

                  (514) 457-6610 ext. 5638
                • John Matthew IV
                  ... There is no rule mandating goalies to wear masks. John Matthew IV
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                    John Serrati wrote:

                    > In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                    > no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                    > goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                    There is no rule mandating goalies to wear masks.

                    John Matthew IV
                  • Bruce Kish
                    Let s not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of masks. Prior to Bobby
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 3, 2004
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                      Let's not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of masks. Prior to Bobby Hull's banana blade, shooters didn't wind up as much.

                      Bruce Kish


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                    • bill young
                      This is where it all began - although Boom Boom Gefferion s cannonading slapshot was the catalyst. Regarding the history story of goalie masks - let us not
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 7, 2004
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                        This is where it all began - although Boom Boom Gefferion's cannonading
                        slapshot was the catalyst. Regarding the history story of goalie masks - let
                        us not forget Clint Benedict of the Montreal Maroons who wore a leather face
                        mask for five games in 1930 after suffering a nose injury from a shot by
                        Howie Morenz. See Bill Brown, "The Montreal Maroons: The forgotten Satnley
                        Champions" for more.

                        Bill young


                        >From: "Bruce Kish" <decisivegames@...>
                        >Reply-To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [hockhist] Re: Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks
                        >Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:08:56 -0500
                        >
                        >Let's not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made
                        >goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of masks.
                        > Prior to Bobby Hull's banana blade, shooters didn't wind up as much.
                        >
                        >Bruce Kish
                        >
                        >
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                        >Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
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                      • bill young
                        Oops...- . Regarding the history of goalie masks - let ... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 7, 2004
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                          Oops...- . Regarding the history of goalie masks - let
                          >us not forget Clint Benedict of the Montreal Maroons who wore a leather
                          >face
                          >mask for five games in 1930 after suffering a nose injury from a shot by
                          >Howie Morenz. See Bill Brown, "The Montreal Maroons: The Forgotten Stanley
                          >Cup
                          >Champions" for more.

                          >From: "bill young" <way_1969@...>
                          >Reply-To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: RE: [hockhist] Re: Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks
                          >Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 07:51:57 -0500
                          >
                          >This is where it all began - although Boom Boom Gefferion's cannonading
                          >slapshot was the catalyst>
                          >Bill young
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: "Bruce Kish" <decisivegames@...>
                          > >Reply-To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          > >To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Subject: [hockhist] Re: Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks
                          > >Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:08:56 -0500
                          > >
                          > >Let's not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made
                          > >goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of
                          >masks.
                          > > Prior to Bobby Hull's banana blade, shooters didn't wind up as much.
                          > >
                          > >Bruce Kish
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >____________________________________________________________
                          > >Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                          > >http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
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