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Re: [hockhist] Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks

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  • zpmboca@aol.com
    In a message dated 2/29/2004 9:55:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Worsley was certainly one of the last to not wear it. He was terrified of flying and used to
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 29, 2004
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      In a message dated 2/29/2004 9:55:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      martin@... writes:

      >
      >
      > Hi guys
      >
      > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL without a
      > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to adopt the
      > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?
      >
      > Martin

      Worsley was certainly one of the last to not wear it. He was terrified of
      flying and used to take trains, but wasn't scared enough of Bobby Hull's slapshot
      to don a mask. Go figure.

      Giacomin first donned a mask around 1970 after a decade or so of going
      without one. As I recall, that was a significant turning point for NHL goalies, many
      of whom finally adopted masks after long careers without them. Glenn Hall was
      also a long-time holdout. Roy Edwards didn't wear one while with the Red
      Wings in the late 60s. Bower never wore one, as I recall.

      Z. Peter Mitchell


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dana Shima
      ... From: Martin Poitras To: Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:55 PM Subject: [hockhist] Lasts
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Martin Poitras" <martin@...>
        To: <hockhist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 6:55 PM
        Subject: [hockhist] Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks


        > Hi guys
        >
        > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL without
        a
        > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to adopt
        the
        > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?
        >
        > Martin

        Bobby Perreault was still maskless as of the 73-74 season according to the
        LA Herald Examiner (and would have played a game when called up to the last
        season's Sharks had he not gotten injured.)

        Dana

        PS
        A belated thanks to Dave S for the research on Saltair. I am always curious
        how hockey and ice skating in general started in non traditional areas.
      • John Hopkins
        Brown may be unique in retiring without ever wearing a mask. Most of the other holdouts at least adopted one late in their career. Worsley wore one in his
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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          Brown may be unique in retiring without ever wearing a mask. Most of the
          other holdouts at least adopted one late in their career. Worsley wore one
          in his final season, and even Johnny Bower wore one at the very end of his
          career. Why they would have suddenly decided it was a good idea then is an
          interesting question.

          A lot of the conversion to the mask in the NHL seems to have been in the
          1969-70 season. That's when Vachon, Roy Edwards and Crozier started wearing
          them. A couple of very late converts were Bruce Gamble and Ed Giacomin, who
          waited until the 1970-71 season.

          An interesting case is Cesare Maniago. Initially in his time with the North
          Stars he only wore his mask when playing against the Black Hawks, no doubt
          due to the B. Hull factor. But by 69-70 he appears to have used it all the
          time.

          John Hopkins
          Toronto

          At 11:46 PM 29/02/2004 -0500, you wrote:
          >In a message dated 2/29/2004 9:55:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          >martin@... writes:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi guys
          > >
          > > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL without a
          > > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to
          > adopt the
          > > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?
          > >
          > > Martin
          >
          >Worsley was certainly one of the last to not wear it. He was terrified of
          >flying and used to take trains, but wasn't scared enough of Bobby Hull's
          >slapshot
          >to don a mask. Go figure.
          >
          >Giacomin first donned a mask around 1970 after a decade or so of going
          >without one. As I recall, that was a significant turning point for NHL
          >goalies, many
          >of whom finally adopted masks after long careers without them. Glenn Hall was
          >also a long-time holdout. Roy Edwards didn't wear one while with the Red
          >Wings in the late 60s. Bower never wore one, as I recall.
          >
          >Z. Peter Mitchell
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
          >hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • William Underwood
          Simple, most found the early masks uncomfortable and limited their vision... As far as cages go...oddly enough I find that when you give the guys the chance to
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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            Simple, most found the early masks uncomfortable and limited their
            vision...

            As far as cages go...oddly enough I find that when you give the guys the
            chance to not wear them they don't. Lat year, USA Hockey sent out a memo
            telling us that we can no longer tell players to wear full facial
            protection or not to past age 18. The logic is that you are legally
            VULNERABLE either way. Say a visor shattered into an eye (unlikely) or a
            cage is pushed back causing a bad cut or a nose injury which is VERY
            possible you are just as liable as if you told a kid NOT to wear
            protection and he lost an eye or broke his nose or something. For my
            summer league I have always brought the special waiver form for my
            seniors as I never forced guys to wear full protection at that age,
            after all I have the odd minor pro playing! It always was surprising how
            many guys would sign it, even college players.
            Now I have to do it at the junior level too. And let's put it this
            way...I have to ask my registrar for more forms!

            A HUGE percentage of guys want to ditch facial protection as soon as
            they are 18! For most of them it is macho stuff. For others, well they
            just don't like the cage. Honestly, I always HATED the cage! It bothered
            my vision, it was able to be grabbed or knocked and frankly I always
            valued my face less then my neck...no Hollywood folks were exactly all
            that concerned about my looks so...on the other hand the thought of a
            neck injury from a cage getting grabbed always bugged me! Now I did wear
            a VISOR. My biggest complaint was that they fogged up BADLY in those
            days. It isn't as bad now.
            But I think the cage will never be that popular among players, the visor
            may get more popular. Then again, ECHL guys HATE IT! In fact the league
            is thinking about bagging them for next year! And most of these guys
            have played with the visor and/or cage for most if not all of their
            amateur careers!

            These things don't go over very well with players!

            Now the goalie mask is another matter. I think it is largely the product
            of the banana blade. The curved stick changed the dynamics of things.
            Guys were suddenly blasting away these knuckle balls especially off the
            point through screens that they started to feel unprotected. Remember
            the goalie HAS to stand in front of a shot and try to block it, no one
            else does...in fact sometimes it is wise to not even try it as the odds
            of a screen of deflection are more than a clean block, plus you catch
            the shot early on in the trajectory when it is more predictable and
            generally low to the ice. Goalies lack that luxury! You are allowed to
            shoot as high as you want, there are rules against elbows or sticks
            getting high so there is a de limiter to that. There is none for head
            hunting goalies! So there really is a limit to the analogy.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: John Matthew IV [mailto:john.matthew@...]
            Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 10:12 PM
            To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [hockhist] Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks


            Martin Poitras wrote:

            > I know that Andy Brown was the last goaltender to play in the NHL
            without
            a
            > mask on April 7, 1974, but who were the other last goaltenders to
            adopt
            the
            > masks or retire without ever wearing one prior to Andy ?

            This topic fascinates me. Has anyone asked Andy, "WHAT THE HELL WERE
            YOU
            THINKING?"

            I cannot imagine playing hockey without a full visor and cage. Being a
            goaltender with nothing to protect your face is inconceivable. I would
            like
            to read (or perhaps write) what the goaltenders of the era were
            thinking.

            Where is Andy these days?

            John Matthew IV



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            hockhist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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          • htl goaliedave
            John, I think you are correct to link your thoughts to the visor issue. I started playing goal in 1964. Our league in Nepean then played outdoors, and the
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 1, 2004
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              John,
              I think you are correct to link your thoughts to the visor issue. I started
              playing goal in 1964. Our league in Nepean then played outdoors, and the
              goalies got the basic baseball style mask and the stinkiest old leather pads
              and gloves. As others have said, until the banana blade and slapshots became
              commonplace, and they started to grow shooters bigger in size... getting hit
              in the head could be avoided. I've talked to a lot of the old goalies and
              they all say the same thing... it wasn't too bad because you just moved out
              of the way and if the puck went in, your team understood. Kind of like
              playing 3rd base or pitcher with a line drive coming... you don't count on
              the guy putting his body in front of each one, so if it results in a run now
              and then who cares.

              Goalies were reluctant to switch because of the Toe Blake factor... being
              called wimps for putting it on.... the same as the visor arguement now. I
              tried to play once without my mask, about 1971 I would say. There was a face
              off in our end with a second left in the game (hard to say exactly as it was
              before digital clocks) . I put my mask on the net and during a stoppage so
              the girls could see me or some other 13 year old reason. The coach yelled at
              me to put it on so I did and of course their centre rang one off my mask
              with a shot from the faceoff so he was right. If I was allowed, I would play
              today without a mask. I used to play without shoulder pads if I forgot them,
              I'd just stuff my jeans over my shoulders and under my sweater. I played
              without a belly pad once... big deal, in those days it was a thin piece of
              felt anyway. I went to hockey school out of town once and forgot my trapper,
              so I used a baseball glove instead... which left my wrist exposed among
              other things. It was just the way we approached our craft. I remember in
              1971 wearing a thin clear plastic 'mask' and a guy took a slapshot from the
              slot and hit me in the unprotected throat... I just kept playing. The most
              important thing about being a goalie is having tons of confidence and no
              fear. If I was asked to play in the NHL and told I could only have leg pads
              and a stick I would do it. You rarely get hit in the head with the puck and
              broken bones and bruises heal. If a goalie is worried about getting hurt he
              is in the wrong position. I do wear all the pads now, but circa 1990
              versions, not the 'body armour' most wear today. They must be the same guys
              who spend $300 for the latest driver to improve their game. I've never once
              thought about my equipment playing goal because I know I am stopping the
              puck whatever I am wearing.

              Macho enough for you? :) Seriously, I did want to give my opinion that it
              was definitely a macho / education issue just like visors. Certainly the
              visors will come just like the masks and helmets. At the latest it will come
              when the insurance companies require it.... and the way they are cracking
              down on other insurance risks, it won't be long.

              Dave in Whitby



              > This topic fascinates me. Has anyone asked Andy, "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU
              > THINKING?"
              > I cannot imagine playing hockey without a full visor and cage. Being a
              > goaltender with nothing to protect your face is inconceivable. I would
              like
              > to read (or perhaps write) what the goaltenders of the era were thinking.
              > John Matthew IV
            • John Serrati
              ... In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                At 10:03 PM 01/03/2004, htl goaliedave wrote:
                >If I was allowed, I would play
                >today without a mask.

                In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                It would be strange, but if one thinks about it, the NHL doesn't need a
                formal rule today (presuming one doesn't exist) as going maskless or
                cageless would never don on most guys.

                John


                Dr John Serrati
                Associate Prof. of History and Classics
                John Abbott College
                Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec
                H9X 3L9
                Canada

                (514) 457-6610 ext. 5638
              • John Serrati
                ... In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the goalies
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                  At 10:03 PM 01/03/2004, htl goaliedave wrote:
                  >If I was allowed, I would play
                  >today without a mask.

                  In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                  no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                  goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                  It would be strange, but if one thinks about it, the NHL doesn't need a
                  formal rule today (presuming one doesn't exist) as going maskless or
                  cageless would never don on most guys.

                  John


                  Dr John Serrati
                  Associate Prof. of History and Classics
                  John Abbott College
                  Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec
                  H9X 3L9
                  Canada

                  (514) 457-6610 ext. 5638
                • John Serrati
                  ... In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the goalies
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                    At 10:03 PM 01/03/2004, htl goaliedave wrote:
                    >If I was allowed, I would play
                    >today without a mask.

                    In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                    no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                    goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                    It would be strange, but if one thinks about it, the NHL doesn't need a
                    formal rule today (presuming one doesn't exist) as going maskless or
                    cageless would never don on most guys.

                    John


                    Dr John Serrati
                    Associate Prof. of History and Classics
                    John Abbott College
                    Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, Quebec
                    H9X 3L9
                    Canada

                    (514) 457-6610 ext. 5638
                  • John Matthew IV
                    ... There is no rule mandating goalies to wear masks. John Matthew IV
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 2, 2004
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                      John Serrati wrote:

                      > In terms of this, one more question. Is it true that the NHL actually has
                      > no rule concerning goalies & headgear? That it has just been down to the
                      > goalies themselves wear or not wear whatever they want.

                      There is no rule mandating goalies to wear masks.

                      John Matthew IV
                    • Bruce Kish
                      Let s not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of masks. Prior to Bobby
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 3, 2004
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                        Let's not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of masks. Prior to Bobby Hull's banana blade, shooters didn't wind up as much.

                        Bruce Kish


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                      • bill young
                        This is where it all began - although Boom Boom Gefferion s cannonading slapshot was the catalyst. Regarding the history story of goalie masks - let us not
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 7, 2004
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                          This is where it all began - although Boom Boom Gefferion's cannonading
                          slapshot was the catalyst. Regarding the history story of goalie masks - let
                          us not forget Clint Benedict of the Montreal Maroons who wore a leather face
                          mask for five games in 1930 after suffering a nose injury from a shot by
                          Howie Morenz. See Bill Brown, "The Montreal Maroons: The forgotten Satnley
                          Champions" for more.

                          Bill young


                          >From: "Bruce Kish" <decisivegames@...>
                          >Reply-To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [hockhist] Re: Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks
                          >Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:08:56 -0500
                          >
                          >Let's not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made
                          >goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of masks.
                          > Prior to Bobby Hull's banana blade, shooters didn't wind up as much.
                          >
                          >Bruce Kish
                          >
                          >
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                        • bill young
                          Oops...- . Regarding the history of goalie masks - let ... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 7, 2004
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                            Oops...- . Regarding the history of goalie masks - let
                            >us not forget Clint Benedict of the Montreal Maroons who wore a leather
                            >face
                            >mask for five games in 1930 after suffering a nose injury from a shot by
                            >Howie Morenz. See Bill Brown, "The Montreal Maroons: The Forgotten Stanley
                            >Cup
                            >Champions" for more.

                            >From: "bill young" <way_1969@...>
                            >Reply-To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: RE: [hockhist] Re: Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks
                            >Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 07:51:57 -0500
                            >
                            >This is where it all began - although Boom Boom Gefferion's cannonading
                            >slapshot was the catalyst>
                            >Bill young
                            >
                            >
                            > >From: "Bruce Kish" <decisivegames@...>
                            > >Reply-To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                            > >Subject: [hockhist] Re: Lasts goaltenders to wear a masks
                            > >Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:08:56 -0500
                            > >
                            > >Let's not forget that the advent of the slap shot certainly made
                            > >goaltending more hazardous and was a catalyst toward the adoption of
                            >masks.
                            > > Prior to Bobby Hull's banana blade, shooters didn't wind up as much.
                            > >
                            > >Bruce Kish
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >____________________________________________________________
                            > >Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
                            > >http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10
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