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Re: What makes a player and elite player or super star?

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  • HockeyGuy
    So if I get what some of you are saying. To be a super star or a elite player you need to be at least a 50 goal a year player Have won championships either in
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 2, 2003
      So if I get what some of you are saying.

      To be a super star or a elite player you need to be at least a 50 goal a
      year player
      Have won championships either in the NHL or the Olympics or World
      Cup....or something like that....or all of the above.
      as well as winning playoff games by carring the team on their back....??

      Weel the reason I have asked this is, I have been in a discussion with
      someone else about what makes a super star or elite player. I agree what
      just about what everyone has said and I have even talked about some of this
      with this person....but they still think the Marion Gaborik is an "ELITE"
      player in the NHL. I see him as a very good player but not elite. his 30
      goal season for two years just does not cut it for me. NOw I am a Wild fan
      (Home Team) and Gaborik is a good player, but he is no elite or a super star
      (maybe as the Wild goes he is).

      So tell me what you all think about Marion Gaborik.

      Thanks

      AL
    • reorgman
      ... goal a ... back....?? ... with ... what ... of this ... an ELITE ... his 30 ... Wild fan ... super star ... You have game defining players - those who
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 3, 2003
        --- In hockhist@yahoogroups.com, "HockeyGuy" <hockeyguy@t...> wrote:
        > So if I get what some of you are saying.
        >
        > To be a super star or a elite player you need to be at least a 50
        goal a
        > year player
        > Have won championships either in the NHL or the Olympics or World
        > Cup....or something like that....or all of the above.
        > as well as winning playoff games by carring the team on their
        back....??
        >
        > Weel the reason I have asked this is, I have been in a discussion
        with
        > someone else about what makes a super star or elite player. I agree
        what
        > just about what everyone has said and I have even talked about some
        of this
        > with this person....but they still think the Marion Gaborik is
        an "ELITE"
        > player in the NHL. I see him as a very good player but not elite.
        his 30
        > goal season for two years just does not cut it for me. NOw I am a
        Wild fan
        > (Home Team) and Gaborik is a good player, but he is no elite or a
        super star
        > (maybe as the Wild goes he is).
        >
        > So tell me what you all think about Marion Gaborik.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > AL


        You have game defining players - those who changed the game - as in
        Bobby Orr, Mario, Wayne, Gordie - not too many of these......and
        perhaps only Marty Brodeur is "Elite" in my mind today. Too early in
        the morning for me to think more.


        You have guys who are "superstars' now - the Lidstroms, the Forsbergs
        and the Sakic types.

        You have guys who are knocking on this door - and THIS is where I
        put Gaborik. Joe Thornton is closer to entering this door than
        Gaborik - and its due to more maturity and more seasons under the
        belt.

        Its Up to Gaborik mostly - and the rest of the Wild in general to see
        how far he goes. Note: He plays for Lemaire - so - his #'s may not
        be as high as they could be if not playing for a trapping team.

        Pat
      • Richard Krueger
        ... goal a ... back....?? Well, no, this is what the posts have been disputing. Stats can be very misleading. Bernie Nicholls -- 70 goals in one season --
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 3, 2003
          > So if I get what some of you are saying.
          >
          > To be a super star or a elite player you need to be at least a 50
          goal a
          > year player
          > Have won championships either in the NHL or the Olympics or World
          > Cup....or something like that....or all of the above.
          > as well as winning playoff games by carring the team on their
          back....??

          Well, no, this is what the posts have been disputing. Stats can be
          very misleading. Bernie Nicholls -- 70 goals in one season -- not
          even close to a superstar. Rod Langway -- a combined 65 points over
          two seasons -- the best defensive superstar in the league both
          seasons. Hejduk scored 50 last year but is not a superstar. It is
          his centre who is the superstar.

          It's not pure skill, either. If that were so, then Bengt Gustafsson
          would be considered a greater player than Wayne Gretzky. But
          Gustafsson had no interest in or passion for the sport he played,
          much like Alexandre Daigle.

          It's the intangibles, like others mentioned. The ability to command
          the game and elevate the play of one's teammates.

          Is Gaborik a superstar? Well, he's certainly highly skilled. Did he
          elevate the play of his teammates in last year's playoffs? No. The
          Wild succeeded because of the coaching of a certain former Montreal
          Canadien Hall-of-Famer. Still, Gaborik is very young. It took
          Markus Naslund a good half-dozen years in the league before he became
          the league's "best pure scorer," as described by the new Hockey News
          special edition, beating out Mario Lemieux. It took Todd Bertuzzi a
          similar length of time to become the league's "best power forward."
          Wait a few more seasons before you decide if Gaborik is a superstar.
          He was horrible in the second half of last season, then saved his
          season by producing in the playoffs. He needs to find consistency.

          Richard.
        • William Underwood
          No question about that! HOF voters DO tend to look at numbers. Only the VERY best defensive players ever even have a hope of getting in while less then the
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 3, 2003
            No question about that! HOF voters DO tend to look at numbers. Only the
            VERY best defensive players ever even have a hope of getting in while
            less then the best offensive guys always have a shot.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Richard Krueger [mailto:dig4fish@...]
            Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 7:39 PM
            To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [hockhist] Re: What makes a player and elite player or super
            star?

            Regarding Mike Gartner, he was never a top-ten, or "elite," player in
            any particular season, but his consistency over a long span of time
            made his career stats hard to ignore by the Hall of Fame committee.
            The same happened to Bernie Federko and Joe Mullen, and the same will
            likely work out nicely for Dave Andreychuk, Doug Gilmour, Adam Oates,
            and Dino Ciccarelli. Good numbers make a player, who may have never
            been a premier player -- only very good -- more of a candidate for
            the Hall than an elite defensive specialist. Personally, I feel Esa
            Tikkanen is more Hall-worthy than Dino Ciccarelli, though Dino's 1200
            career points makes him more likely to get the nod than The
            Incomprehensible One.

            Richard.




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          • William Underwood
            One problem here is era and systems. Gaborik plays on a defensive oriented team, now if he played on a team that opened up more those numbers might well go up.
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 3, 2003
              One problem here is era and systems. Gaborik plays on a defensive
              oriented team, now if he played on a team that opened up more those
              numbers might well go up. Similarly if he played with other top players
              where he had more support his numbers also might be better. More
              importantly, we play in the "dead puck" era today with the trap being
              the norm. Hence one can get into the question of style. In the 80's, one
              can even argue that 40 goals wasn't all that "elite" or "special". Today
              we have most season NOT having a 50 goal man nor even many in the 40's.
              Thirty goals is no small achievement these days ESPECIALLY at his age
              and experience level playing in a defensive system on a team where you
              are CLEARLY the most talented player where your main support has all too
              often been guys whose main claim to fame has been minor pro stardom.
              Young Mr. Gaborik is a special player in his own right. A star but not a
              super star and the book is not yet done.

              I suppose it all depends upon where you draw the line on elite. If you
              are saying top 20, there might be a debate. But if you are saying "a guy
              that about 30 teams would LOVE to have on one of their top two lines" he
              makes it with room to spare! So it all comes back to definitions...

              -----Original Message-----
              From: HockeyGuy [mailto:hockeyguy@...]
              Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:54 PM
              To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [hockhist] Re: What makes a player and elite player or super
              star?

              So if I get what some of you are saying.

              To be a super star or a elite player you need to be at least a 50 goal a
              year player
              Have won championships either in the NHL or the Olympics or World
              Cup....or something like that....or all of the above.
              as well as winning playoff games by carring the team on their back....??

              Weel the reason I have asked this is, I have been in a discussion with
              someone else about what makes a super star or elite player. I agree what
              just about what everyone has said and I have even talked about some of
              this
              with this person....but they still think the Marion Gaborik is an
              "ELITE"
              player in the NHL. I see him as a very good player but not elite. his 30
              goal season for two years just does not cut it for me. NOw I am a Wild
              fan
              (Home Team) and Gaborik is a good player, but he is no elite or a super
              star
              (maybe as the Wild goes he is).

              So tell me what you all think about Marion Gaborik.

              Thanks

              AL



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