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Re: Hockey beings worse than baseball

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  • nieforth
    Isn t this a thread more suited to the Silly Season group? Joseph
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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      Isn't this a thread more suited to the "Silly Season" group?

      Joseph
    • Mueller, Thomas
      Sorry, if my question was not appropriate to the list. I withdraw the question ... From: nieforth [mailto:nieforth@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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        Sorry, if my question was not appropriate to the list. I withdraw the question

        -----Original Message-----
        From: nieforth [mailto:nieforth@...]
        Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:25 AM
        To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hockhist] Re: Hockey beings worse than baseball


        Isn't this a thread more suited to the "Silly Season" group?

        Joseph


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      • Mueller, Thomas
        I would like to ask that if my question (which I have withdrawn) was not appropriate to the list, then someone just tell me. Instead of taking an attack on
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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          I would like to ask that if my question (which I have withdrawn) was not appropriate to the list, then someone just tell me. Instead of taking an attack on me.

          Thank you
          Tom

          -----Original Message-----
          From: nieforth [mailto:nieforth@...]
          Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:25 AM
          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hockhist] Re: Hockey beings worse than baseball


          Isn't this a thread more suited to the "Silly Season" group?

          Joseph


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        • Marc Foster
          ... appropriate to the list, then someone just tell me. Instead of taking an attack on me. The issue has been dealt with privately, case closed. Marc
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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            >From: "Mueller, Thomas" <mueller@...>
            >
            >I would like to ask that if my question (which I have withdrawn) was not
            appropriate to the list, then someone >just tell me. Instead of taking an
            attack on me.

            The issue has been dealt with privately, case closed.

            Marc


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Underwood
            No you are not but you are also placing blame rather one sidedly. The NHLPA is absolutely resolute in it s views too! They are not willing to work with
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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              No you are not but you are also placing blame rather one sidedly. The NHLPA
              is absolutely resolute in it's views too! They are not willing to work with
              management on any solution. They would LOVE to have completely unrestricted
              free agency. and fail that, at the very least prvent any restrictions on
              salaries at all.

              It is more than just the owners...

              And there are some valid points here:

              1-Hockey has TV money that amounts to less than 10 % per team in it's
              national TV deal than the NFL. Yet there are some payrolls that are above
              the average actual payout of many NFL teams.
              2-The cost of hockey to the consumer is higher than other sports. In fact,
              in more than one place it is the most expensive sports ticket i town.
              3-Two thirds plus of the league is actually in the red.
              4-The plight of the league is such that several teams have sat over 18
              monthes on the market with nary a single serious bid to buy. No less than
              Moody's recently called the NHL a "bad investment risk".

              The game has BIG problems! It is a gate driven business with no real Tv
              money and none on the horizon. TV ratings have steadilty been bad! Depsite
              an Olympic kick last year, the overall cable/network ratings declined again
              last year. New cities are starting to see attendance drop. Then you have the
              basic dilemna that Canada is the league's greatest and loyalist bastion. But
              the NHL is getting too expensive for Canadian teams to make it.

              Something HAS to be done! Now that something is cost control AS wELL As
              revunue sharing. Unlike basktabll and football where the gate is split 60-40
              and all (and most in hoops) of TV revenue is shared, hockey has little real
              revenue sharing. Now, the owners are right in looking for the same sort of
              cost controls that have come into play now in every other sport. But where
              they fail the "greed test" is that revenue sharing is a taboo subject. And
              even if they win the big showdown in 2004 they STILL will have HUGE problems
              without it!

              Now the players fail the "greed test" when they sit there and think of
              thewmselves in the same terms as players in other sports with massive TV
              money. We are not football, basebll, basketball, or even NASCAR. We are
              hockey! That sport that is too big to be called minor league but too small
              to be called truly big time in the finance world. but they want salaries
              that put them inthe same neighborhood as A Rod, Iverson, and Favre!
              Ultimately the game can't survive that way but greed also blinds them to
              reality as we have recently seen in their challenging the salary tax in
              Alberta. Here is an initiative that exists to keep two teams in operation in
              loyal markets. The players offer no quarter and in essence say "to hell with
              the fans and the communities, the teams ought to pick up and move someplace
              else where there are less fans but who cares, we don't get taxed this
              measley percentile..."

              Greed flows both ways! Never say it is just the owners leading the way to
              war! It takes two to tango. There is plenty of greed to go around here.
              Myopic owners who think that a salary cap is the all powerful answer. And
              equally osrtrich like players who think that nothing needs to be done that
              involves anything but paying them more money!

              Which is why a strike looks likely. Two sides, diametrically apart and one
              unwilling to act on a CBA that addresses the games issues, the others
              unwilling to make internal finance adjustments to allow for that CBA to
              actually work whatever it is going to be in the end. Anyone see Nero and his
              fiddle lately?

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mueller, Thomas [mailto:mueller@...]
              Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:23 PM
              To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


              My 2 favorite sports Hockey and Baseball. It seems neither gets it. I can
              not believe the Bettman opened his mouth already about it. Doesn't he
              understand why baseball still took a hit this year? People were tired of
              the strike / lock out talk.
              http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2002/1031/1453877.html My question will there
              be a strike or lock out? I think yes, it seems that is what the owners want
              one including the big market teams (ie. Philadelphia - see Gange contract
              years) Am I wrong? Tom

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • mtlhockey@aol.com
              In a message dated 10/31/02 5:23:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, mueller@cup.edu ... No you are right, there will be a long work stoppage in 2004. Everyone is
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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                In a message dated 10/31/02 5:23:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, mueller@...
                writes:

                > My question will there be a strike or lock out? I think yes, it seems that
                > is what the owners want one including the big market teams (ie.
                > Philadelphia - see Gange contract years)
                >
                > Am I wrong?
                >

                No you are right, there will be a long work stoppage in 2004. Everyone is
                expecting it. The big problem the NHL has is not TV revenue and the prospect
                of a new TV deal that is even worse than the one they have now. ESPN with
                Basketball now is really not interested in Hockey anymore and there are not
                many alternatives. So with that looming and the players wanting to keep the
                status quo, expect a long work stoppage.

                Brian


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mueller, Thomas
                William, I completely agree with you, however I think one of the problems baseball had was the constant reminder of a work stoppage. Fans got very tired, very
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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                  William, I completely agree with you, however I think one of the problems baseball had was the constant reminder of a work stoppage. Fans got very tired, very quickly and some believe that is one reason the numbers were low. I was surprised that Bettman brought it up.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: William Underwood [mailto:wausport@...]
                  Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:41 PM
                  To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                  No you are not but you are also placing blame rather one sidedly. The NHLPA
                  is absolutely resolute in it's views too! They are not willing to work with
                  management on any solution. They would LOVE to have completely unrestricted
                  free agency. and fail that, at the very least prvent any restrictions on
                  salaries at all.

                  It is more than just the owners...

                  And there are some valid points here:

                  1-Hockey has TV money that amounts to less than 10 % per team in it's
                  national TV deal than the NFL. Yet there are some payrolls that are above
                  the average actual payout of many NFL teams.
                  2-The cost of hockey to the consumer is higher than other sports. In fact,
                  in more than one place it is the most expensive sports ticket i town.
                  3-Two thirds plus of the league is actually in the red.
                  4-The plight of the league is such that several teams have sat over 18
                  monthes on the market with nary a single serious bid to buy. No less than
                  Moody's recently called the NHL a "bad investment risk".

                  The game has BIG problems! It is a gate driven business with no real Tv
                  money and none on the horizon. TV ratings have steadilty been bad! Depsite
                  an Olympic kick last year, the overall cable/network ratings declined again
                  last year. New cities are starting to see attendance drop. Then you have the
                  basic dilemna that Canada is the league's greatest and loyalist bastion. But
                  the NHL is getting too expensive for Canadian teams to make it.

                  Something HAS to be done! Now that something is cost control AS wELL As
                  revunue sharing. Unlike basktabll and football where the gate is split 60-40
                  and all (and most in hoops) of TV revenue is shared, hockey has little real
                  revenue sharing. Now, the owners are right in looking for the same sort of
                  cost controls that have come into play now in every other sport. But where
                  they fail the "greed test" is that revenue sharing is a taboo subject. And
                  even if they win the big showdown in 2004 they STILL will have HUGE problems
                  without it!

                  Now the players fail the "greed test" when they sit there and think of
                  thewmselves in the same terms as players in other sports with massive TV
                  money. We are not football, basebll, basketball, or even NASCAR. We are
                  hockey! That sport that is too big to be called minor league but too small
                  to be called truly big time in the finance world. but they want salaries
                  that put them inthe same neighborhood as A Rod, Iverson, and Favre!
                  Ultimately the game can't survive that way but greed also blinds them to
                  reality as we have recently seen in their challenging the salary tax in
                  Alberta. Here is an initiative that exists to keep two teams in operation in
                  loyal markets. The players offer no quarter and in essence say "to hell with
                  the fans and the communities, the teams ought to pick up and move someplace
                  else where there are less fans but who cares, we don't get taxed this
                  measley percentile..."

                  Greed flows both ways! Never say it is just the owners leading the way to
                  war! It takes two to tango. There is plenty of greed to go around here.
                  Myopic owners who think that a salary cap is the all powerful answer. And
                  equally osrtrich like players who think that nothing needs to be done that
                  involves anything but paying them more money!

                  Which is why a strike looks likely. Two sides, diametrically apart and one
                  unwilling to act on a CBA that addresses the games issues, the others
                  unwilling to make internal finance adjustments to allow for that CBA to
                  actually work whatever it is going to be in the end. Anyone see Nero and his
                  fiddle lately?

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mueller, Thomas [mailto:mueller@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:23 PM
                  To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                  My 2 favorite sports Hockey and Baseball. It seems neither gets it. I can
                  not believe the Bettman opened his mouth already about it. Doesn't he
                  understand why baseball still took a hit this year? People were tired of
                  the strike / lock out talk.
                  http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2002/1031/1453877.html My question will there
                  be a strike or lock out? I think yes, it seems that is what the owners want
                  one including the big market teams (ie. Philadelphia - see Gange contract
                  years) Am I wrong? Tom

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                  hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com

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                  To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com

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                • Morey Holzman
                  Hey Bill, We ve been around on this before. Be careful of in the red ... As an E.A. with a little bit of hockey business knowledge, I would guesstimate that
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 1, 2002
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                    Hey Bill,

                    We've been around on this before. Be careful of "in the red"

                    > 3-Two thirds plus of the league is actually in the red.

                    As an E.A. with a little bit of hockey business knowledge, I would
                    guesstimate that only three or four teams are actually in the red
                    when depreciation and capital gains are taken into consideration.

                    Morey
                  • William Underwood
                    The problem is that anytime there is a scenario like this, there will be posturign by the sides, almost like an election. Each side wants to bring public
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The problem is that anytime there is a scenario like this, there will be
                      posturign by the sides, almost like an election. Each side wants to bring
                      public preassure by trying to seem the "god guy" or "concerned party." And,
                      in reality, it is a topic that the press has incessantly brought up! Every
                      press conference...to not say anything would seem evasive which would be
                      then made to appear as lazy or devious by the media.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Mueller, Thomas [mailto:mueller@...]
                      Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:00 PM
                      To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                      William, I completely agree with you, however I think one of the problems
                      baseball had was the constant reminder of a work stoppage. Fans got very
                      tired, very quickly and some believe that is one reason the numbers were
                      low. I was surprised that Bettman brought it up.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: William Underwood [mailto:wausport@...]
                      Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:41 PM
                      To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                      No you are not but you are also placing blame rather one sidedly. The NHLPA
                      is absolutely resolute in it's views too! They are not willing to work with
                      management on any solution. They would LOVE to have completely unrestricted
                      free agency. and fail that, at the very least prvent any restrictions on
                      salaries at all.

                      It is more than just the owners...

                      And there are some valid points here:

                      1-Hockey has TV money that amounts to less than 10 % per team in it's
                      national TV deal than the NFL. Yet there are some payrolls that are above
                      the average actual payout of many NFL teams.
                      2-The cost of hockey to the consumer is higher than other sports. In fact,
                      in more than one place it is the most expensive sports ticket i town.
                      3-Two thirds plus of the league is actually in the red.
                      4-The plight of the league is such that several teams have sat over 18
                      monthes on the market with nary a single serious bid to buy. No less than
                      Moody's recently called the NHL a "bad investment risk".

                      The game has BIG problems! It is a gate driven business with no real Tv
                      money and none on the horizon. TV ratings have steadilty been bad! Depsite
                      an Olympic kick last year, the overall cable/network ratings declined again
                      last year. New cities are starting to see attendance drop. Then you have the
                      basic dilemna that Canada is the league's greatest and loyalist bastion. But
                      the NHL is getting too expensive for Canadian teams to make it.

                      Something HAS to be done! Now that something is cost control AS wELL As
                      revunue sharing. Unlike basktabll and football where the gate is split 60-40
                      and all (and most in hoops) of TV revenue is shared, hockey has little real
                      revenue sharing. Now, the owners are right in looking for the same sort of
                      cost controls that have come into play now in every other sport. But where
                      they fail the "greed test" is that revenue sharing is a taboo subject. And
                      even if they win the big showdown in 2004 they STILL will have HUGE problems
                      without it!

                      Now the players fail the "greed test" when they sit there and think of
                      thewmselves in the same terms as players in other sports with massive TV
                      money. We are not football, basebll, basketball, or even NASCAR. We are
                      hockey! That sport that is too big to be called minor league but too small
                      to be called truly big time in the finance world. but they want salaries
                      that put them inthe same neighborhood as A Rod, Iverson, and Favre!
                      Ultimately the game can't survive that way but greed also blinds them to
                      reality as we have recently seen in their challenging the salary tax in
                      Alberta. Here is an initiative that exists to keep two teams in operation in
                      loyal markets. The players offer no quarter and in essence say "to hell with
                      the fans and the communities, the teams ought to pick up and move someplace
                      else where there are less fans but who cares, we don't get taxed this
                      measley percentile..."

                      Greed flows both ways! Never say it is just the owners leading the way to
                      war! It takes two to tango. There is plenty of greed to go around here.
                      Myopic owners who think that a salary cap is the all powerful answer. And
                      equally osrtrich like players who think that nothing needs to be done that
                      involves anything but paying them more money!

                      Which is why a strike looks likely. Two sides, diametrically apart and one
                      unwilling to act on a CBA that addresses the games issues, the others
                      unwilling to make internal finance adjustments to allow for that CBA to
                      actually work whatever it is going to be in the end. Anyone see Nero and his
                      fiddle lately?

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Mueller, Thomas [mailto:mueller@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:23 PM
                      To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                      My 2 favorite sports Hockey and Baseball. It seems neither gets it. I can
                      not believe the Bettman opened his mouth already about it. Doesn't he
                      understand why baseball still took a hit this year? People were tired of
                      the strike / lock out talk.
                      http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2002/1031/1453877.html My question will there
                      be a strike or lock out? I think yes, it seems that is what the owners want
                      one including the big market teams (ie. Philadelphia - see Gange contract
                      years) Am I wrong? Tom

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                      hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com

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                    • William Underwood
                      And you would be wrong Morey. The problem is that the losses mount up over the years beyond where depreciation and other write offs can get you. And some start
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
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                        And you would be wrong Morey. The problem is that the losses mount up over
                        the years beyond where depreciation and other write offs can get you. And
                        some start to almost immediately!

                        Having seen a team's books when they were up for sale a few years back--a
                        team that incidentally is on BIG trouble now, I can attest to that. Beyond
                        that, emprical evidence prooves it further. When Moody's evaluates an asset,
                        they take such things into consideration. You don't get the rap of "bad
                        investment" by them all that easily. They are considered the world's
                        formeost evaluator of frims and investments. Nary an investment house on the
                        planet doesn't have their binder on their shelves somewhere. The NHL did get
                        just that thumb nail from them just weeks ago!

                        Once more, products that are able to be turned into the black by accounting
                        tricks don't stay on the market so long with no buyers in pro sports as have
                        about a half dozen NHL teams. Some have been up for grabs on the market,
                        some for as long as nearly TWO years and counting with NO takers nor even a
                        serious bid.

                        For that matter, you also don't tend to see as many teams on the market if
                        the outlook is even as rosy as you are asserting. I can NEVER recall a time
                        when a half odzen teams have been in that bind in a sport. Not even in
                        baseball with all of it's follies over the past two years has had as many
                        people trying to bail out nor as little interest in it's teams! There have
                        even been inquirees about the Expos!

                        No, Morey, there are some serious porblems. And in more than three or four
                        places...Another point, what other sport has a league ran team other than
                        contraction minded baseball's Expos? Do you see it in the NFL? I can't think
                        of such an incident there since the 50's and the old Dallas Texans in '53!
                        And hoops hasn't had it in ages either! Sports in good health just don't
                        need to have teams operated by leagues...this is stuff out of the WHA, WFL,
                        USFL and ABA genre, NOT established healthy leagues! If the Sabres were an
                        NFL team, feelers would have went out the day after problems arose to buy
                        and a sale would have been done in a matter of weeks. The only hardship a
                        HEALTHY sport (like football say) has is to pick which of several groups to
                        sell to...not to wait monthes on end for bona fide offers not just feelers.
                        There would be a bidding war on, in Buffalo they've been breathing fumes
                        trying to get A legtimate bid almost to the point of it sounding like it is
                        being appealed to statewide like a charity case..."help this town to not
                        lose their team" as opposed to "buy this hugely profitable asset." And
                        notice, no other market has come rushing in to attempt to buy and move the
                        team.

                        Now, one could say that the stirke plays a role. And it does! But the hitch
                        is that we are still 2 years AWAY fro it and the problems started two to
                        three years BEFORE now on the market! Even before real economic slow down,
                        which, again seemingly has not hurt the market on mmore viable sports
                        investment. The NFL ALREADY has groups posturing for LA even with no
                        announced expansion! They are actually feeling out teams that are not for
                        sale! Trying to persuade with a bid. Even baseball with it's forcasts of
                        gloom and doom and contraction didn't see such a bail out/lack of investment
                        syndrome!

                        The problem is that the numbers of the sport plain old don't work! And the
                        feeling is that franshise values may have topped out. You won't make a lot
                        of capital gain once overall losses are tabbed, inflation is considered and
                        other factors come into play. Hence the lack of prospective buyers for
                        anything less than top franchises.

                        No Morey, it is worse than four or five teams or creative accounting...there
                        are REAL problems here! And it is all simple math...how does a sport that
                        has a fraction of other sports revenue justify costs that are a significant
                        percentage of those other sports? How does a sport with a tiny market share
                        compared to other sports justify prices that are a much greater proportion
                        relative to thoise other sports franchise prices? The fact is that you
                        really can't! The tent tends to fall in quick! Doubly so when so much was
                        pushed by an ostensible huge market growth. It hasn't happened! TV ratings
                        have DECLINED! The truth is that the next US TV deal not only will not be a
                        huge increase but actually may be for LESS in real terms. Many of the newer
                        teams actually have declining attendence after the novelty has worn off. And
                        they've run out of expansion being an underwriter. No more bringing in four
                        new teams to give each team a smooth, quick 10-20 mill! The bubble is
                        bursting! And even in established markets, all of the numbers are not so
                        hot...

                        It all is not all that hard to understand when you look at it for what it is
                        and what all sports investments are today. They are toys of rich men, ego
                        purchases or attempts at synergy by corporations. and worse yet, these
                        entities are not in the SPORTS business. They are dabbling in non familiar
                        territory that their egos make them feel that they can conquer. Not all of
                        them can! And if a toy gets too expensive it has to be dropped, especially
                        in nmot so certain times. And for synergy to work it has to prove quickly
                        profitable. All too often these have been the cases in the NHL. It is
                        survival of the fittest! The NFL gives you general proifitablity AND a
                        MASSIVE ego rush...ditto with most of the NBA as well as even a good part of
                        much maligned old baseball--who also has the advantage of being masters of
                        the summer with little competition. Hence, they have less or in some cases
                        no real problems!
                        The NHL has been such a case of miscalculation by more than one investor, so
                        we see all of these issues!

                        I am an MBA with twenty years of hockey business experience and I KNOW it is
                        a bigger problem than that. And if you don't believe me, there is always
                        Moody's...most of the world tends to have a good deal of faith in them and
                        they have rarely been wrong, to the point that they actually have become
                        CRAFTERS of investment. Their thumbs down rating is not a harbinger of
                        things getting better.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Morey Holzman [mailto:MOREY_H@...]
                        Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:13 PM
                        To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [hockhist] Re: Hockey beings worse than baseball


                        Hey Bill,

                        We've been around on this before. Be careful of "in the red"

                        > 3-Two thirds plus of the league is actually in the red.

                        As an E.A. with a little bit of hockey business knowledge, I would
                        guesstimate that only three or four teams are actually in the red
                        when depreciation and capital gains are taken into consideration.

                        Morey


                        To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
                        hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • William Underwood
                        Should be good guy gang, typo! ... From: William Underwood [mailto:wausport@bellatlantic.net] Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 12:10 PM To:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Should be "good guy" gang, typo!

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: William Underwood [mailto:wausport@...]
                          Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 12:10 PM
                          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                          The problem is that anytime there is a scenario like this, there will be
                          posturign by the sides, almost like an election. Each side wants to bring
                          public preassure by trying to seem the "god guy" or "concerned party." And,
                          in reality, it is a topic that the press has incessantly brought up! Every
                          press conference...to not say anything would seem evasive which would be
                          then made to appear as lazy or devious by the media.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Mueller, Thomas [mailto:mueller@...]
                          Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:00 PM
                          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                          William, I completely agree with you, however I think one of the problems
                          baseball had was the constant reminder of a work stoppage. Fans got very
                          tired, very quickly and some believe that is one reason the numbers were
                          low. I was surprised that Bettman brought it up.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: William Underwood [mailto:wausport@...]
                          Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:41 PM
                          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                          No you are not but you are also placing blame rather one sidedly. The NHLPA
                          is absolutely resolute in it's views too! They are not willing to work with
                          management on any solution. They would LOVE to have completely unrestricted
                          free agency. and fail that, at the very least prvent any restrictions on
                          salaries at all.

                          It is more than just the owners...

                          And there are some valid points here:

                          1-Hockey has TV money that amounts to less than 10 % per team in it's
                          national TV deal than the NFL. Yet there are some payrolls that are above
                          the average actual payout of many NFL teams.
                          2-The cost of hockey to the consumer is higher than other sports. In fact,
                          in more than one place it is the most expensive sports ticket i town.
                          3-Two thirds plus of the league is actually in the red.
                          4-The plight of the league is such that several teams have sat over 18
                          monthes on the market with nary a single serious bid to buy. No less than
                          Moody's recently called the NHL a "bad investment risk".

                          The game has BIG problems! It is a gate driven business with no real Tv
                          money and none on the horizon. TV ratings have steadilty been bad! Depsite
                          an Olympic kick last year, the overall cable/network ratings declined again
                          last year. New cities are starting to see attendance drop. Then you have the
                          basic dilemna that Canada is the league's greatest and loyalist bastion. But
                          the NHL is getting too expensive for Canadian teams to make it.

                          Something HAS to be done! Now that something is cost control AS wELL As
                          revunue sharing. Unlike basktabll and football where the gate is split 60-40
                          and all (and most in hoops) of TV revenue is shared, hockey has little real
                          revenue sharing. Now, the owners are right in looking for the same sort of
                          cost controls that have come into play now in every other sport. But where
                          they fail the "greed test" is that revenue sharing is a taboo subject. And
                          even if they win the big showdown in 2004 they STILL will have HUGE problems
                          without it!

                          Now the players fail the "greed test" when they sit there and think of
                          thewmselves in the same terms as players in other sports with massive TV
                          money. We are not football, basebll, basketball, or even NASCAR. We are
                          hockey! That sport that is too big to be called minor league but too small
                          to be called truly big time in the finance world. but they want salaries
                          that put them inthe same neighborhood as A Rod, Iverson, and Favre!
                          Ultimately the game can't survive that way but greed also blinds them to
                          reality as we have recently seen in their challenging the salary tax in
                          Alberta. Here is an initiative that exists to keep two teams in operation in
                          loyal markets. The players offer no quarter and in essence say "to hell with
                          the fans and the communities, the teams ought to pick up and move someplace
                          else where there are less fans but who cares, we don't get taxed this
                          measley percentile..."

                          Greed flows both ways! Never say it is just the owners leading the way to
                          war! It takes two to tango. There is plenty of greed to go around here.
                          Myopic owners who think that a salary cap is the all powerful answer. And
                          equally osrtrich like players who think that nothing needs to be done that
                          involves anything but paying them more money!

                          Which is why a strike looks likely. Two sides, diametrically apart and one
                          unwilling to act on a CBA that addresses the games issues, the others
                          unwilling to make internal finance adjustments to allow for that CBA to
                          actually work whatever it is going to be in the end. Anyone see Nero and his
                          fiddle lately?

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Mueller, Thomas [mailto:mueller@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:23 PM
                          To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [hockhist] Hockey beings worse than baseball


                          My 2 favorite sports Hockey and Baseball. It seems neither gets it. I can
                          not believe the Bettman opened his mouth already about it. Doesn't he
                          understand why baseball still took a hit this year? People were tired of
                          the strike / lock out talk.
                          http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2002/1031/1453877.html My question will there
                          be a strike or lock out? I think yes, it seems that is what the owners want
                          one including the big market teams (ie. Philadelphia - see Gange contract
                          years) Am I wrong? Tom

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        • Morey Holzman
                          I know Moody s quite well, as does the Orange County auditor that banked on them in 1991. He s doing time now, but that s another story. Moody s has their
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I know Moody's quite well, as does the Orange County auditor that
                            banked on them in 1991. He's doing time now, but that's another
                            story.

                            Moody's has their opinion, and Forbes has theirs, and EVERY single
                            expansion team of the 90s is worth more than the expansion fee,
                            according to Forbes. Please explain that one to us.

                            Morey

                            --- In hockhist@y..., "William Underwood" <wausport@b...> wrote:
                            > And you would be wrong Morey. The problem is that the losses mount
                            up over
                            > the years beyond where depreciation and other write offs can get
                            you. And
                            > some start to almost immediately!
                            >
                          • William Underwood
                            First off, inflation. Second off, are they REALLY worth more? Book value is one thing, real amrket value is another. The Ducks can t even find a guy to bid on
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 2, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              First off, inflation. Second off, are they REALLY worth more? Book value is
                              one thing, real amrket value is another. The Ducks can't even find a guy to
                              bid on them...so much for book value...

                              As for Forbes, it is one thing to try to guestimate a value. another to KNOW
                              a business and it's market. If they are so clever, why do we STILL have no
                              owner in Buffalo? And all of those teams STILL out there with a "For Sale"
                              sign with no taker? Could Forbes be, gulp, wrong! Explain us this Morey. If
                              they are such great "buys" and so worrhty of value appreciation, how come we
                              don't have several grops battling for these teams instead of nobody going
                              past passing interest? Odd isn't it?

                              As for your bringing up a crooked auditor that banked on them, what does
                              that have to do with anything? They STILL are the most trusted such firm on
                              corpoarate evaluations that you will find?

                              How you can SERIOUSLY argue that a league with about one fifth if NFL TV
                              money, one fourth NBA and one fourth to one tenth (depsndamt upon the team)
                              baseball TVrevenue can POSSIBLY afford payrolls that are well over 50-85
                              those of NFL teams (dependant upon the club), 50-75 % of NBA payrolls and
                              anywhere from above trhe Expos to about 55 % of the Yankee payroll just
                              boggles the mind! The numbers DON'T work... Expenses in ALL of those sports
                              are mostly form player personel. And there are some teams inthe NBA and
                              baseball that are not in the black and few NFL teams just above break even.
                              But hockey with the TV revenue of a not so great local TV can afford to pay
                              out the SAME amount and STILL be in the black? Interesting logic..And I've
                              seen ALL of the creative accounting sone over the years for pro sports teams
                              but at a certain point you just can't avoid REAL losses. The NHL is the
                              definitive poster child here! Cost and revenue COMPLETELY out of whack!

                              And it is odd that I know NO ONE in the sports industry, the marketing
                              industry (and I deal with some of the better firms in New York time to time)
                              and finance industries that seem to think like you do..phoney losses. Even
                              your precious Forbes has conceeded structural problems with the league, when
                              they did their article a few years back.

                              There are some TRUE problems here Morey! Owners don't get this desparate
                              over just a few "book earnings". We have had a team file Chapter 11 just a
                              short while back, and another league run for nearly six monthes. What
                              HEALTHY sport has these follies happen? About how long would a aleague owned
                              NFL not have bidders make real offers... ugly facts but still facts. Ones
                              that you have no real answer to.

                              The day of reconning cometh. The days of wine and roses and fat expansion
                              pidgeons are over. The days of climbing franchise values are too. In sprots
                              boom inu general is subsiding. And in a sport where there are MAJOR
                              questions about the future ranging from what the next TV contract may or may
                              not hold to who will buy an orphaned team the slow down is multifold worse!
                              Ultimately I'd say that Forbes franchise valeus are not even worth the
                              p[avge ythey are written on., because the market seems to agree with
                              Moody's, not Forbes. Just ask the league officials that are humping every
                              leg in tthe Empire State to buy the Sabres at a bargain basement must go
                              price or the Disney people who are STILL hoping to get a call returned about
                              the Ducks...






                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Morey Holzman [mailto:MOREY_H@...]
                              Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:06 PM
                              To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [hockhist] Re: Hockey beings worse than baseball


                              I know Moody's quite well, as does the Orange County auditor that
                              banked on them in 1991. He's doing time now, but that's another
                              story.

                              Moody's has their opinion, and Forbes has theirs, and EVERY single
                              expansion team of the 90s is worth more than the expansion fee,
                              according to Forbes. Please explain that one to us.

                              Morey

                              --- In hockhist@y..., "William Underwood" <wausport@b...> wrote:
                              > And you would be wrong Morey. The problem is that the losses mount
                              up over
                              > the years beyond where depreciation and other write offs can get
                              you. And
                              > some start to almost immediately!
                              >



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