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Re: [hockhist] Re: Dublin to Gain. USA or Amerida?

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  • Charles Roth
    The amazing Patrick family history may have a few clues. I like the book The Patricks, Hockey s Royal Family by Eric Whitehead. One of the amazing things
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 1, 2002
      The amazing Patrick family history may have a few clues. I like the book
      "The Patricks, Hockey's Royal Family" by Eric Whitehead.

      One of the amazing things about Frank Patrick was the building of the Denman
      St. Arena, called "the world's largest indoor sports emporium" in 1912. I
      can't speak for the five other artifical ice rinks in 1912, but he had
      curling rinks and a huge swimming pool at the Denman, plus a real work of
      genius which (in my mind) promoted his building--an ice making plant. I had
      to stop and think for a moment, but nearly every kitchen in 1912 wouldn't
      have had the refrigerator we enjoy, but an ice box...and you had to purchase
      ice from an ice plant. I can see it now, "Denman Street Ice Company." Good
      promotion and exposure to a lot of citizens in Vancouver!

      Charlie Roth

      on 3/31/02 12:53 PM, David Stewart-Candy at icehockeyalmanac@... wrote:

      > CRICKET... Here in Vancouver and Victoria about 80~100
      > years ago, cricket was probably the #3 or #4 sport
      > played in the city (close tie with soccer).
      >
      > Baseball was #2 and lacrosse was the king. Ice hockey
      > was unheard of until the Patricks came along in
      > ca.1911.
      >
      > I've always kind of wondered just how did hockey take
      > off here in Vancouver? It isn't like we had all the
      > frozen ponds for the common masses to play on back
      > then. But once the PCHA came to town, the sport boomed
      > almost over night (well, in a period of 5~10 years).
      >
      > D!
      >
      >
      > =====
      > David Stewart-Candy
      >
      > International Ice Hockey Almanac
      > Canadian Lacrosse Almanac
      > East Vancouver, British Columbia
      >
      > ______________________________________________________________________
      > Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca
      >
      >
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      >
      >
    • Dr John Serrati
      William, I would disagree w/ you about the garrison games issue being long dead in Ireland and Ulster. I have had a lot of contact w/ both the Republic and
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 2, 2002
        William,

        I would disagree w/ you about the 'garrison games' issue being long dead in
        Ireland and Ulster. I have had a lot of contact w/ both the Republic and
        the North recently, and am moving to Belfast in August to take up a new
        post at Queen's University. Loving soccer, I've enquired considerably
        about the state of the game over there. Many people, and more importantly,
        many school teachers (as schools are still divided by religion), still see
        the GAA as Irish Catholic and soccer and rugby as English Protestant. The
        adult population seems to pay little attention (soccer is extremely popular
        on both sides of the border), but in 1983 a friend of mine was thrown out
        of seminary school for attending soccer matches one too many times, and a
        former teammate of mine from the North only started soccer at 18 because it
        was formally banned at his Christian (ie Catholic) Brothers high school,
        and this was 1987!

        But you're right the issue is slowly but surely dying and becoming more of
        a business competition affair rather than a sectarian one.

        Though that said, soccer is still very sectarian in Glasgow!

        John

        At 12:28 4/1/2002 -0500, William Underwood wrote:
        > >thats exactly my point about technology bridging the environmental
        >gap and marketing bridging the culture gap. In the early days hockey
        >didnt fit in environmentally in the lower mainland and had little
        >cultural connection to the epicenter of hockey in eastern canada, but
        > >it caught on.
        >
        >But there was the ultimate national connection of the west actually being a
        >part of Canada going for it. Technology may have introiduced the game but it
        >wasn't the real catalyst of popularity. You have the issues of population
        >movement as well as being a part fot he "national phenomenon. The west, in
        >essence tapped into what had become a part fo the national culture. It
        >actually was not a truly outside invader.
        >
        >Plus we are talking abouit what is now the better part of a century ago!
        >Organized team sport was still relatively young! Most team sport has history
        >only going back as far as the mid nineteenth century at LATEST. Indeed, many
        >sports were not even codified until the later part of the century, the 70's
        >and 80's. Simply put, the traditions that you discussed then and the
        >inherenyt behavioral patterns were not that old. Today, a country's sporting
        >tradition is multi generational, truly a part of a nation's fabric and
        >tradition, no longer just a pass time.
        >
        >For example in Ireland, the Gaelic Athletic Association wasn't even founded
        >until the 1880's! Granted hurling and Gaelic football pre existed it but
        >were not origanized. Irish Catholics in that era were not allowed to join
        >Protestant dominated cricket and other sports clubs. The English games were
        >thus seen as "garrison games". And this was not far removed from the point
        >in Irish history where Catholics had lost the right to land ownership, the
        >Gaelic language had been illegal, and in fact, for a while in the 18th
        >century the Catholic church was banned from operating as was even the
        >wearing of the green. Irish culture was being subjected to a genocide--a
        >concerted attempt to Anglicize the people! Hence the GAA was part of an era
        >called the Irish Renaisence when Irish men and women took it upon themselves
        >to save their very culture. The GAA was a part of it! So GAA membership was
        >tantamount to saying "I'm Irish, am proud and am a patriot." Right into the
        >20th century this legacy has held. at onetime you couldn't play the
        >"garrison games" and be a part of the GAA. The result, unitl well into the
        >50's Irish schollboys were beaten up if they were caught playing soccer.
        >Until the GAA lightened up on that rule, soccer was frowned on in Ireland,
        >though it had infact existed there for decades! The GAa thus is a part of a
        >statement of Irishness, more than a sporting body!
        >
        >Soccer didn't even havce an official rule book until 1844! The FA didn't
        >exist until 1863! Leagues elsewhere cropped up over the next few decades.
        >
        >So in that era, "new" sport was the nature of the day! "Old" sport had much
        >more shallow roots! Sport had limited presences in contrast to today where
        >it is omnipresent in a society. One school would play one game, anothger
        >would play another--no real unity! Not even inthe old world, where some
        >schoola played soccer and others rugby and never would the two meet for
        >those first few decades! So it was also fragmaneted. in the New World the
        >fragmentation was even more pronounced as you had so many ethnic groups
        >bringing their own games to the table. The late nineteenth and early
        >twentieth century was the dawn of sprt as we know it. And like in any
        >frontier era, grabbing land was EASY!
        >
        >Today we are the product OF that era! Just like 90 years ago a guy could
        >claim a stake in oklahoma for a pittance and make a fortune drliing oil but
        >can't today, there are sprting barriers up.
        >
        >Some are even political. In most nations overseas, you have ministers of
        >sport who are FULL CABINET ministers. The estabished associations have their
        >ear and they can do anything from barring a sport from state issued
        >insurance gouging their cost (rubgy union did this to league in Italy) to
        >forbidding the use of arenas (happened to various rebel pro hockey interests
        >eyeing Europe as well as to rugby leagues first foray into South Africa in
        >the early 60's) and starving them from access to development funds as rugnby
        >union did to league in Japan. The GAA STILL won't allow soccer or rugby to
        >play in Croke Park. Not because of the garrison games issue (long dead) as
        >much as they are competing sports business entities. So they play in
        >anitiquated Landsdowne Road. So it can be difficult to field pro teams when
        >there is real opposition not to mention to develop youth teams.
        >
        >And this is all well above and beyond winning the hearts and minds as well
        >as dealing with cultural taboos! Agina, YOU love hockey, Spain does not.
        >They LOVE soccer you do not! So you have to crack that divide and unless
        >your technology has a mind altering machine...you more often fail than not!
        >Then there are even subtle taboos to deal with in some places. For example,
        >an Irish team in a British league woiuld have been suicide in Ireland 30
        >years ago! Timing is important! On the other extreme you have selling rugby
        >to the black population of Natal. Thye ar emoslty Zulu. By their tradition,
        >being thrown to the ground is an insult to one's manhood. So you are trying
        >to sell them on playing a game where yes, you are tossed to the ground!
        >
        >After much experience of trying to sell niche games, I can tell you that
        >there usually is a reason why they are niche and not the dominant game in a
        >culture. And that much of a culture will ALWAYS sneer and/or ignore the new.
        >Even North American culture does and it is probably the most open in terms
        >of thought AND business practises. Once more, you learn that people have
        >different tastes. No technology nor marketing will ever change that--Thank
        >God--we'd have a VERY dull planet if it ever did!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
        >hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
        >hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

        Dr John Serrati
        School of Greek, Latin and Ancient History
        St Salvator's College
        University of St Andrews
        KY16 9AL
        United Kingdom

        44 (0)1334 (46)2619
        44 (0)7960 829035
      • William Underwood
        ... Ireland and Ulster. I have had a lot of contact w/ both the Republic and the North recently, and am moving to Belfast in August to take up a new post at
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 2, 2002
          >I would disagree w/ you about the 'garrison games' issue being long dead in
          Ireland and Ulster. I have had a lot of contact w/ both the Republic and
          the North recently, and am moving to Belfast in August to take up a new
          post at Queen's University. Loving soccer, I've enquired considerably
          about the state of the game over there. Many people, and more importantly,
          many school teachers (as schools are still divided by religion), still see
          the GAA as Irish Catholic and soccer and rugby as English Protestant. The
          adult population seems to pay little attention (soccer is extremely popular
          on both sides of the border), but in 1983 a friend of mine was thrown out
          of seminary school for attending soccer matches one too many times, and a
          former teammate of mine from the North only started soccer at 18 because it
          was formally banned at his Christian (ie Catholic) Brothers high school,
          >and this was 1987!

          No doubt true. But among the youth this is changing. You are about as likely
          to see kids wearing Man U jerseys these days as GAA shirts. Even the young
          guys that come over here to play in the GAA all talk soccer. We even had a
          guy on our hurling club we nicknamed Catona because of his resemblance to
          the finicky Frenchman! But such attitudes are not dead either. The older
          guys still deride soccer pretty badly, it is almost an under 40 over 40
          thing...

          Irish papers are pretty good about soccer coverage and the emigre papers
          here devote almost as much to it as they do anything else. It is a major
          item particularly the national team, and these papers have most of their
          circulation going to people born and/or raised in Ireland. So times are
          changing! I think the key year was 1990 and the World Cup run. It put the
          Republic in a sporting prominence it has probably never enjoyed before.

          >But you're right the issue is slowly but surely dying and becoming more of
          >a business competition affair rather than a sectarian one.

          Yes, especially in the larger cities. There is a way to go but at least you
          are allowed to play the opther sports and don't have to fear being clobbered
          for it. Of course, in Ulster the issues are much more pronounced. The
          southern clubs have been strong advocates of striking the rule against
          members of the British armed forces or Ulster police being banned from the
          GAA. Ulster has strongly resisted this!

          The FAI does exist in obscurity in the Republic. It is a rather amatuerish
          poolry ran league. Most Irish people follow the Premier League with Man U
          being the most popular club I'd say. The best players go to England anyway!

          As for youth participationand what not--the Gaelic Games reign supreme and
          rightfully should! However, the GAA is at an interesting crossroads. It is
          still amateur sport. And young Irish athletes are seeing the money to be
          made in soccer and rugby while the rewards in the GAA are less direct and
          dramatic. A Player's Association has been formed but the word professional
          is still an obscenity to much oif the hierarchy and they'll only go pro
          kicking and screaming. But the bleeding of atheletes is a real possibility
          because of this issue. Some good kids will grow up playing the traditional
          sports then either go abroad to play pro soccer or switch to rugby all too
          often if the authoorities are not careful! It is a dilemna! The parrishes
          would have a tough time running a meaningful club competition if out and out
          professionalism was opened upo carte blanche. But there is real preassure at
          the county level. One of the greatest hurlers of recent memory DJ Carey
          breifly retired over the issue. We can't afford to see players like that
          leave the game and the money is there to pay players at the inter county
          level for sure!

          On another front the government is starting to put soime preassure onthe GAA
          to open Croke Park. With the Republic's rise in prominence in the soccer
          world and rugby entering it's pro era, a new facility os sorely needed for
          those games. The government recently put A LOT of mney into Corke Park and
          resent the proposition of having to consider funding for a new stadium too!
          Thye are looking for a pay back!

          The early twenty first century will be a time where the GAA is going to have
          to look at itself and make some changes with the times. Given the scope of
          it both in terms of size and place in Irish society , no doubt it will. But
          when and exactly how will be the reigning questions. There are progressives
          in the ranks but they don't run the roost yet but they are making enroads.



          >Though that said, soccer is still very sectarian in Glasgow!

          No doubt on that you are either Celtic or a Ranger never the two!

          At 12:28 4/1/2002 -0500, William Underwood wrote:
          > >thats exactly my point about technology bridging the environmental
          >gap and marketing bridging the culture gap. In the early days hockey
          >didnt fit in environmentally in the lower mainland and had little
          >cultural connection to the epicenter of hockey in eastern canada, but
          > >it caught on.
          >
          >But there was the ultimate national connection of the west actually being a
          >part of Canada going for it. Technology may have introiduced the game but
          it
          >wasn't the real catalyst of popularity. You have the issues of population
          >movement as well as being a part fot he "national phenomenon. The west, in
          >essence tapped into what had become a part fo the national culture. It
          >actually was not a truly outside invader.
          >
          >Plus we are talking abouit what is now the better part of a century ago!
          >Organized team sport was still relatively young! Most team sport has
          history
          >only going back as far as the mid nineteenth century at LATEST. Indeed,
          many
          >sports were not even codified until the later part of the century, the 70's
          >and 80's. Simply put, the traditions that you discussed then and the
          >inherenyt behavioral patterns were not that old. Today, a country's
          sporting
          >tradition is multi generational, truly a part of a nation's fabric and
          >tradition, no longer just a pass time.
          >
          >For example in Ireland, the Gaelic Athletic Association wasn't even founded
          >until the 1880's! Granted hurling and Gaelic football pre existed it but
          >were not origanized. Irish Catholics in that era were not allowed to join
          >Protestant dominated cricket and other sports clubs. The English games were
          >thus seen as "garrison games". And this was not far removed from the point
          >in Irish history where Catholics had lost the right to land ownership, the
          >Gaelic language had been illegal, and in fact, for a while in the 18th
          >century the Catholic church was banned from operating as was even the
          >wearing of the green. Irish culture was being subjected to a genocide--a
          >concerted attempt to Anglicize the people! Hence the GAA was part of an era
          >called the Irish Renaisence when Irish men and women took it upon
          themselves
          >to save their very culture. The GAA was a part of it! So GAA membership was
          >tantamount to saying "I'm Irish, am proud and am a patriot." Right into the
          >20th century this legacy has held. at onetime you couldn't play the
          >"garrison games" and be a part of the GAA. The result, unitl well into the
          >50's Irish schollboys were beaten up if they were caught playing soccer.
          >Until the GAA lightened up on that rule, soccer was frowned on in Ireland,
          >though it had infact existed there for decades! The GAa thus is a part of a
          >statement of Irishness, more than a sporting body!
          >
          >Soccer didn't even havce an official rule book until 1844! The FA didn't
          >exist until 1863! Leagues elsewhere cropped up over the next few decades.
          >
          >So in that era, "new" sport was the nature of the day! "Old" sport had much
          >more shallow roots! Sport had limited presences in contrast to today where
          >it is omnipresent in a society. One school would play one game, anothger
          >would play another--no real unity! Not even inthe old world, where some
          >schoola played soccer and others rugby and never would the two meet for
          >those first few decades! So it was also fragmaneted. in the New World the
          >fragmentation was even more pronounced as you had so many ethnic groups
          >bringing their own games to the table. The late nineteenth and early
          >twentieth century was the dawn of sprt as we know it. And like in any
          >frontier era, grabbing land was EASY!
          >
          >Today we are the product OF that era! Just like 90 years ago a guy could
          >claim a stake in oklahoma for a pittance and make a fortune drliing oil but
          >can't today, there are sprting barriers up.
          >
          >Some are even political. In most nations overseas, you have ministers of
          >sport who are FULL CABINET ministers. The estabished associations have
          their
          >ear and they can do anything from barring a sport from state issued
          >insurance gouging their cost (rubgy union did this to league in Italy) to
          >forbidding the use of arenas (happened to various rebel pro hockey
          interests
          >eyeing Europe as well as to rugby leagues first foray into South Africa in
          >the early 60's) and starving them from access to development funds as
          rugnby
          >union did to league in Japan. The GAA STILL won't allow soccer or rugby to
          >play in Croke Park. Not because of the garrison games issue (long dead) as
          >much as they are competing sports business entities. So they play in
          >anitiquated Landsdowne Road. So it can be difficult to field pro teams when
          >there is real opposition not to mention to develop youth teams.
          >
          >And this is all well above and beyond winning the hearts and minds as well
          >as dealing with cultural taboos! Agina, YOU love hockey, Spain does not.
          >They LOVE soccer you do not! So you have to crack that divide and unless
          >your technology has a mind altering machine...you more often fail than not!
          >Then there are even subtle taboos to deal with in some places. For example,
          >an Irish team in a British league woiuld have been suicide in Ireland 30
          >years ago! Timing is important! On the other extreme you have selling rugby
          >to the black population of Natal. Thye ar emoslty Zulu. By their tradition,
          >being thrown to the ground is an insult to one's manhood. So you are trying
          >to sell them on playing a game where yes, you are tossed to the ground!
          >
          >After much experience of trying to sell niche games, I can tell you that
          >there usually is a reason why they are niche and not the dominant game in a
          >culture. And that much of a culture will ALWAYS sneer and/or ignore the
          new.
          >Even North American culture does and it is probably the most open in terms
          >of thought AND business practises. Once more, you learn that people have
          >different tastes. No technology nor marketing will ever change that--Thank
          >God--we'd have a VERY dull planet if it ever did!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
          >hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To unsubscribe from this mail list, send a blank message to
          >hockhist-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

          Dr John Serrati
          School of Greek, Latin and Ancient History
          St Salvator's College
          University of St Andrews
          KY16 9AL
          United Kingdom

          44 (0)1334 (46)2619
          44 (0)7960 829035



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