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Re: Scotty Cameron and HRA

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  • Ralph Slate
    ... Actually, I ve only been using TH for reference -- for example, if I come across a QMJHL player who may be the same guy who played in the NHL years later,
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 25, 1999
      > Wait a second, we formed this organization in part to open the
      > availability of stats. I think we could score some serious points
      > within the hockey community if we, as an organization, got some
      > acknowledgements in the next edition. Ralph is already
      > supplementing his database with data from Total Hockey anyway... so
      > let's practice what we preach.

      Actually, I've only been using TH for reference -- for example, if I
      come across a QMJHL player who may be the same guy who played in
      the NHL years later, I'm looking him up.

      Again, my beef with TH is that the book was researched by the player.
      That's why there are so many little stupid errors in it, for example
      the one that James just pointed out. AHA instead of AHL. It might
      seem trivial, but the book is littered with such errors.

      That's because they didn't type up a whole team's worth of stats,
      someone had notecards, one for each player in the NHL. (I'm guessing
      this). They have that person's historical stats on the notecard, but
      there is no link between the notecard and anything else. That's why
      things like leagues and seasons got screwed up -- because each entry
      is independent of the others.

      And that's why the stats aren't always right; because no error
      checking was ever done on them -- they couldn't do any! But the
      easiest way to check errors is to add up the goals to see if they
      match the number of goals the team scored, and add up the PIM to see
      if that adds up to the team's PIM. If they don't, look for problems.

      Another way to check is to add up the number of GP and see if they
      match 14*number of team games, or whatever the limit of players
      is/was. That way you can tell if someone is missing. That's not as
      easy to do in the lower leagues because they had player shortages,
      but for the most part, if you're off by more than 10 games in the
      NHL, there is something wrong.

      So that's why I have a beef, I'd be willing to bet that most of the
      research done concentrated on the NHL players and ignored the rest of
      the minor league/teams they played on.

      > Everything has a price Jeff. Offering the corrections would cost us
      > the time and effort, but it obviously has the potential to yield us
      > some serious recognition. The powers-that-be at the SIHR would have
      > to take notice, as would the NHL and HHoF.

      I really don't believe they'd do anything other than bury a 1
      sentence mention in the back of their "Credits" section. Honestly.

      Ralph
      slater@...

      --------------------------------------------------
      Logos, Stats, Cards, and Standings at the
      Internet Hockey Database: http://www.hockeydb.com
      --------------------------------------------------
    • Joe Nix
      ... This was a good guess in my opinion and Ralph wrote a classic explanation of sticking with and cross checking the source data in statistical gathering.
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 25, 1999
        Ralph wrote:

        > That's because they didn't type up a whole team's worth of stats,
        > someone had notecards, one for each player in the NHL. (I'm guessing
        > this).

        This was a good guess in my opinion and Ralph wrote a classic explanation
        of 'sticking' with and cross checking the source data in statistical gathering. It
        brought back my experiences from a decade in 'number crunching' for large
        corporations.




        > > serious recognition. The powers-that-be at the SIHR would have to take
        > > notice, as would the NHL and HHoF.
        >
        > I really don't believe they'd do anything other than bury a 1
        > sentence mention in the back of their "Credits" section. Honestly.

        Reminds me of my patiently recording details from LP record labels versus
        sale prices and sending it yearly to Gerry Osborne for 'Rock N Records'.
        Gerry credited me and others in his foreward. But guess what? Another
        'hobby publisher' stole or 'copied inadvertently' the entire data base and
        published it under their name with as Gerry said, 'the same typos' in his
        book.

        There is a 'law' I believe, that 'labors of love' will provide 'easy pickings' for
        those less inclined to 'love'.


        =======

        ICE HOCKEY in Springdale, Arkansas
        http://www.mo-net.com/~nixit/hockey.html
        with Joe Nix's selection of history and
        amateur links
      • James Karkoski
        ... More on Cameron. Brian McFarlane s 60s Years of Hockey says 1941-42 Art Ross & Lester Patrick engaged in a heated pre-season dispute to the rights to
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 26, 1999
          >From: "Jeff Chapman" <jchap@...>
          >
          >Does anyone have any information on Scotty Cameron? He was a 6'2" center
          >who played one year with the Rangers in the early 40s. I know he went into
          >the
          >service in 1943-44 and played with the New York Ramblers and St. Paul
          >Saints, among others, after getting out of the war.
          >If I remember correctly, there was some sort of bidding war or controversy
          >surrounding him early on in his career.
          >Any help in this matter would be appreciated.


          More on Cameron. Brian McFarlane's "60s Years of Hockey" says

          1941-42
          "Art Ross & Lester Patrick engaged in a heated pre-season dispute to the
          rights to Angus "Scotty" Cameron, a tall center who had played amateur
          with th NY Rovers. On Sept.14, Ross walked out on a League Governor's
          meeting. A month later he resigned as a League Governor and his
          colleagues shed no tears as they accepted his resignation. Calder turned
          down his official protest and awarded Cameron to the Rangers."


          So, what exactly the dispute was, I don't know, but since it did lead to
          Art Ross resiging it should be easy enough to find out, with the dates of
          all this stuff given and all in the McFarlane book.


          James
        • D.S. Walters
          Include me in that list, too, please? You can add my email address to the list of folks who want to hear
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 26, 1999
            Include me in that list, too, please?



            You can add my email address to the list of folks who want to hear

            > the story.
            >
            > >That's just why I'm hesitant to "give away" anything at this point.
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