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Re: Canada vs America

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  • Bill Underwood
    Jim; There were always PLENTY of fans for the nosebleed seats in Quebec. They just wouldn t built a new palace loaded with luxury boxes for M. Aubut. The
    Message 1 of 9 , May 30 4:14 AM
      Jim;

      There were always PLENTY of fans for the nosebleed seats in Quebec. They just wouldn't built a
      new palace loaded with luxury boxes for M. Aubut. The corporate presenc is a problem in markets
      like that! I saw Nord fans stick with that team throught the pits! Yes there were Montreal fans
      in Quebec, but most were hockey fans above all. And it's funny that you mention Montreal fans. In
      Montreal, I remeber runnin g into a legion of nordique fans ESPECIALLY in the Fench community.
      Interestingly enough there was also a poll doen at the time, where the Bloc Quebeccois got most
      of the votes in elections, the Nordiques were more popular than the Habs and the reverse was true
      in other areas. It seems that the Nordiques had gotten the image of being "the real French team".
      Rmember, our jersey was basically a provincial flag, and we stressed that image. Montreal had
      largwely English players at the time and was considerd the team of "the Establishment". Thus we
      also had a lot of young fans! Plus, Quebec had always had a bit of animosity toward Montreal as a
      city. It was the provincial capital and smaller. Montreal had "stolen" Jean Beliveau. It also was
      the seat of Anglo power in Quebec, where most of the great French politicains of the '50's and
      60's were Quebec based. Yet Montreal seemingly got all of the attention! There was also the sense
      that Montreal had become very influenced by American and English cultutre and that Quebec city
      was the real bastion of French Canada. As a Freench Canadian colleague once said ( a well
      educated Monrtrealer) "Quebec city is coming home for the French people". So no, Nord fans did
      NOT jumop ship to Montreal, in fact they never jumped ship on the team period. It was refusing to
      sign on with tax extortion! It was also a lack of multi nationals whcih are the face of todays
      NHL thanks to it's insistance on operating on unrealistic budgets that did in the Nords!

      On the other hand, your dead right about the Islanders. Their woes can be traced right to the day
      they stopped winning! And as for the minors, you're dead right too, they are the fan's leagues!

      Bill Underwood

      James Karkoski wrote:

      > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
      >
      > >From: Joe Pelletier <fuzzymonkey@...>
      > >
      > >> The problem with this Joe is that of you want to have "pro hockey" then
      > >> you have got to have "fans" to watch it.
      > >
      > >Thats never been the problem and you know it. The problem in Winnipeg
      > >and Quebec and sooner or later Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa is that
      > >there isn't enough corporate support. Lets face it, NHL arena's aren't
      > >filled with fans, but "corporate fans." Many real fans can't afford to
      > >go to a NHL game, be it in Canada or America. Canadian cities also
      > >don't have government support either. There's no lack of fan support.
      >
      > Actually, I was speaking more in a historical sense than the modern one.
      >
      > I disagree with the corporate thing. Having lived through an era where
      > there were alot of empty seats in both the NHL and WHA and there were
      > only 53 teams in all of pro hockey (1975-76 counting the teams which
      > folded during the year) at least someone or something is buying tickets
      > now.
      >
      > Compare that with the 134 pro teams which were in existence last year,
      > and if corporations are buying the NHL tickets then aren't the fans
      > buying the minor league ones?
      >
      > How many kids show up at minor league games these days??
      >
      > I think one of the problems in Quebec, etc, Hartford, NY Islanders is
      > that in every one in of these places there are many secondary fans of the
      > teams. Before the Nordiques everyone was a Canadiens fan etc... and when
      > the intial excitement of having an NHL team wears away and the teams
      > keeps losing, then the fans who buy the nosebleed seats stop going and
      > start following their first team from afar like they did before. When
      > that goes on long enough the owner then wants to move to a place where he
      > thinks he will sell the nosebleed seats.
      >
      > For the more established teams like the Bruins etc.. simply a competitive
      > year seems to turn the fans back.
      >
      > >Sure. The NHL is a North American game. Its not a game, itsa corporation too.
      > Fact is,
      > >hockey is bigger than the NHL.
      >
      > When you start making 14 year kids turn pro (in a sense), I guess that
      > would make the game as big as life itself. Just because I don't agree
      > with the commitment doesn't mean I can't understand it.
      >
      > >> I have always found it kind of strange that a country which has always
      > >> thought of itself as "multicultural" could be so "monocultural" when it
      > >> came to one sport.
      > >
      > >We like curling too!
      >
      > So does Denmark and Sweden if I remember correctly.
      >
      > Oh, Ryan Stewart couldn't have played in Japan, they wouldn't let imports
      > over here from early 80s until the mid 90s.
      >
      > James
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      > http://www.onelist.com
      > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    • Bill Underwood
      Jim; One other point, 14 year olds weren t really signed by the NHL. Their rights were picked up by the myriad of agreements. This is not totally unlike the
      Message 2 of 9 , May 30 4:20 AM
        Jim;

        One other point, 14 year olds weren't really signed by the NHL. Their rights were picked up by
        the myriad of agreements. This is not totally unlike the teenage phenoms that were signed in
        baseball during the same era in the US. At the time, the US public tought that this was great! It
        was our great sponsorship system, in fact my grandfather was one of them, and never saw a day
        outside of low minor semi pro ball! So the cultural statement goes for both sides iof the border.
        What about the mere children buried in the Yankee and Cardinal systems of the day. Canadians
        weree no more inscrupulous than us! They just diod it more with pucks than baseballs!

        Bill Underwood

        James Karkoski wrote:

        > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
        >
        > >From: Joe Pelletier <fuzzymonkey@...>
        > >
        > >> The problem with this Joe is that of you want to have "pro hockey" then
        > >> you have got to have "fans" to watch it.
        > >
        > >Thats never been the problem and you know it. The problem in Winnipeg
        > >and Quebec and sooner or later Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa is that
        > >there isn't enough corporate support. Lets face it, NHL arena's aren't
        > >filled with fans, but "corporate fans." Many real fans can't afford to
        > >go to a NHL game, be it in Canada or America. Canadian cities also
        > >don't have government support either. There's no lack of fan support.
        >
        > Actually, I was speaking more in a historical sense than the modern one.
        >
        > I disagree with the corporate thing. Having lived through an era where
        > there were alot of empty seats in both the NHL and WHA and there were
        > only 53 teams in all of pro hockey (1975-76 counting the teams which
        > folded during the year) at least someone or something is buying tickets
        > now.
        >
        > Compare that with the 134 pro teams which were in existence last year,
        > and if corporations are buying the NHL tickets then aren't the fans
        > buying the minor league ones?
        >
        > How many kids show up at minor league games these days??
        >
        > I think one of the problems in Quebec, etc, Hartford, NY Islanders is
        > that in every one in of these places there are many secondary fans of the
        > teams. Before the Nordiques everyone was a Canadiens fan etc... and when
        > the intial excitement of having an NHL team wears away and the teams
        > keeps losing, then the fans who buy the nosebleed seats stop going and
        > start following their first team from afar like they did before. When
        > that goes on long enough the owner then wants to move to a place where he
        > thinks he will sell the nosebleed seats.
        >
        > For the more established teams like the Bruins etc.. simply a competitive
        > year seems to turn the fans back.
        >
        > >Sure. The NHL is a North American game. Its not a game, itsa corporation too.
        > Fact is,
        > >hockey is bigger than the NHL.
        >
        > When you start making 14 year kids turn pro (in a sense), I guess that
        > would make the game as big as life itself. Just because I don't agree
        > with the commitment doesn't mean I can't understand it.
        >
        > >> I have always found it kind of strange that a country which has always
        > >> thought of itself as "multicultural" could be so "monocultural" when it
        > >> came to one sport.
        > >
        > >We like curling too!
        >
        > So does Denmark and Sweden if I remember correctly.
        >
        > Oh, Ryan Stewart couldn't have played in Japan, they wouldn't let imports
        > over here from early 80s until the mid 90s.
        >
        > James
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...
        > http://www.onelist.com
        > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
        > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
        > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
      • Joe Pelletier
        ... Thats never been the problem and you know it. The problem in Winnipeg and Quebec and sooner or later Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa is that there isn t
        Message 3 of 9 , May 31 8:04 PM
          > The problem with this Joe is that of you want to have "pro hockey" then
          > you have got to have "fans" to watch it.

          Thats never been the problem and you know it. The problem in Winnipeg
          and Quebec and sooner or later Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa is that
          there isn't enough corporate support. Lets face it, NHL arena's aren't
          filled with fans, but "corporate fans." Many real fans can't afford to
          go to a NHL game, be it in Canada or America. Canadian cities also
          don't have government support either. There's no lack of fan support.


          > And this is why pro hockey has
          > always been both Canada's and America's game.Canada has
          > always needed Americans to watch it. How many people in Canada
          > are actually willing to admit even that??

          Sure. The NHL is a North American game. Its not a game, itsa corporation too. Fact is, hockey is
          bigger than the NHL.

          > If you want to say you love "hockey" that is fine, but when you belittle

          > the American spectators participation in it, than you only really love
          > "Canadian Hockey."

          I don't think anyone belittled anything of that sort.

          > I have always found it kind of strange that a country which has always
          > thought of itself as "multicultural" could be so "monocultural" when it
          > came to one sport.

          We like curling too!

          Joe
          Hockey Over Time
          http://www.lcshockey.com/history
        • Ralph Slate
          ... That s exactly right. About 4 years ago I checked into getting season tickets to the Whalers. The tickets would have been $1000 for the highest seats for
          Message 4 of 9 , May 31 9:21 PM
            > Thats never been the problem and you know it. The problem in
            > Winnipeg and Quebec and sooner or later Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa
            > is that there isn't enough corporate support. Lets face it, NHL
            > arena's aren't filled with fans, but "corporate fans." Many real
            > fans can't afford to go to a NHL game, be it in Canada or America.
            > Canadian cities also don't have government support either. There's
            > no lack of fan support.

            That's exactly right. About 4 years ago I checked into getting season
            tickets to the Whalers. The tickets would have been $1000 for the
            highest seats for the season. That's a lot of dough to sit in the
            nosebleeds -- the good seats were $2000 for the season. Sure, maybe I
            could have paid that, but I couldn't convince 3 other people to buy
            seats along with me -- no one wanted to pay to see a bad team.

            When corporations have the seats, there's more of a buffer zone. It
            takes a few years of bad hockey before companies cancel their tickets
            (but it still happens -- it did in Boston when the Bruins were
            stinking up the joint).

            However, the corporations owning the seats is going to be bad in the
            long run. No longer does a person take their family to the game --
            more like a couple of guys show up at the game 1/2 way through the
            first period, leave 1/2 way through the 3rd period, and don't ever
            really get into the game -- and they don't care because they got the
            tickets for free from their company. And kids get more excited by WWF
            wrestling than they do by hockey. Pretty soon the NHL teams have very
            few loyal fans, and when they have a losing record for a season or
            two they are hurt badly economically because they start drawing 80%
            of capacity. Look at the NY Islanders.

            Ralph
            slater@...

            --------------------------------------------------
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          • James Karkoski
            ... The problem with this Joe is that of you want to have pro hockey then you have got to have fans to watch it. And this is why pro hockey has always been
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 1, 1999
              >From: Joe <fuzzymonkey@...>
              >
              >I find this whole Canada vs America debate between Bill and James
              >(I believe) to be very interesting.
              >
              >I'd just like to say that maybe James, who's hockey knowledge I
              >respect enough put on a level only matched by Pat Houda, doesn't
              >quite realize how important hockey is in Canada. I don't know if
              >anyone does, including myself. Its tough to put into words. Its not just
              >a sport
              >that everyone watches. Its a huge part of the culture. Its something
              >that has tied this country together. In such a large and diverse
              >country,
              >hockey has always been a constant, coast to coast. It gives Canada
              >its greatest form of national pride. Its more than a sport.
              >
              >I've always wondered how big of a role hockey has played in keeping
              >Canada together. Lets face it, Quebec has been trying to get out for
              >years. During the 70s and 80s the famous Canada vs Russia battles
              >filled everyone with so much nationalist pride, including Quebecers.
              >But now Quebec is closer than ever to voting to seperate. I sure
              >wish we had a Red Army vs Habs game coming up soon. Schedule
              >it a week before the referendum and maybe Quebec will stay!
              >
              >When Canadian based teams leave for the States, its not just an
              >NHL team leaving Canada, its like part our national pride is being
              >taken over and "Americanized." Canada and the States are basically
              >the same, but Canadians are very proud of the few things that make
              >use different. To see a Canadian based team leave for the states
              >rips at the heart of our culture.


              The problem with this Joe is that of you want to have "pro hockey" then
              you have got to have "fans" to watch it. And this is why pro hockey has
              always been both Canada's and America's game.Canada has always needed
              Americans to watch it.


              How many people in Canada are actually willing to admit even that?? Which
              is the reason why I started flaming Bill.


              If you want to say you love "hockey" that is fine, but when you belittle
              the American spectators participation in it, than you only really love
              "Canadian Hockey."


              I have always found it kind of strange that a country which has always
              thought of itself as "multicultural" could be so "monocultural" when it
              came to one sport.


              And I've always thought Canadians were selling themselves a bit short
              when they started thinking of hockey as the only way to define themselves.



              James
            • James Karkoski
              ... Which I think has been the problem when it comes to developing hockey players in the US. You can t take the tradition of one country and slap it into
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 1, 1999
                >From: "Joe Nix" <nixit@...>

                >
                >Regarding Canadian culture, a great fear of the Canadian parents in
                >organizing minor hockey in S. California was 'airhead yanks' who would
                >immediately want to change the game. It shocked them so much that for a
                >few years the 'peewee' leagues did not 'open up' much to the general public.
                >As incoming president of one minor hockey association, the Canadiam
                >parents very rightfully 'tested' me in conversations.


                Which I think has been the problem when it comes to developing hockey
                players in the US. You can't take the tradition of one country and slap
                it into another without changing it a little bit to make people satisfied
                with it.


                Baseball, Basketball, American Football and Soccer all get a free ride in
                having kids play sports because they are organized around high school
                participation, which I guess is the "American way."


                James
              • James Karkoski
                ... Actually, I was speaking more in a historical sense than the modern one. I disagree with the corporate thing. Having lived through an era where there were
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 1, 1999
                  >From: Joe Pelletier <fuzzymonkey@...>
                  >
                  >> The problem with this Joe is that of you want to have "pro hockey" then
                  >> you have got to have "fans" to watch it.
                  >
                  >Thats never been the problem and you know it. The problem in Winnipeg
                  >and Quebec and sooner or later Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa is that
                  >there isn't enough corporate support. Lets face it, NHL arena's aren't
                  >filled with fans, but "corporate fans." Many real fans can't afford to
                  >go to a NHL game, be it in Canada or America. Canadian cities also
                  >don't have government support either. There's no lack of fan support.


                  Actually, I was speaking more in a historical sense than the modern one.


                  I disagree with the corporate thing. Having lived through an era where
                  there were alot of empty seats in both the NHL and WHA and there were
                  only 53 teams in all of pro hockey (1975-76 counting the teams which
                  folded during the year) at least someone or something is buying tickets
                  now.


                  Compare that with the 134 pro teams which were in existence last year,
                  and if corporations are buying the NHL tickets then aren't the fans
                  buying the minor league ones?


                  How many kids show up at minor league games these days??


                  I think one of the problems in Quebec, etc, Hartford, NY Islanders is
                  that in every one in of these places there are many secondary fans of the
                  teams. Before the Nordiques everyone was a Canadiens fan etc... and when
                  the intial excitement of having an NHL team wears away and the teams
                  keeps losing, then the fans who buy the nosebleed seats stop going and
                  start following their first team from afar like they did before. When
                  that goes on long enough the owner then wants to move to a place where he
                  thinks he will sell the nosebleed seats.


                  For the more established teams like the Bruins etc.. simply a competitive
                  year seems to turn the fans back.


                  >Sure. The NHL is a North American game. Its not a game, itsa corporation too.
                  Fact is,
                  >hockey is bigger than the NHL.


                  When you start making 14 year kids turn pro (in a sense), I guess that
                  would make the game as big as life itself. Just because I don't agree
                  with the commitment doesn't mean I can't understand it.


                  >> I have always found it kind of strange that a country which has always
                  >> thought of itself as "multicultural" could be so "monocultural" when it
                  >> came to one sport.
                  >
                  >We like curling too!


                  So does Denmark and Sweden if I remember correctly.


                  Oh, Ryan Stewart couldn't have played in Japan, they wouldn't let imports
                  over here from early 80s until the mid 90s.


                  James
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