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Re: Montreal Maroons

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  • Bill Underwood
    The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about Montreal s ability to support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don t
    Message 1 of 27 , May 17 6:17 PM
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      The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about Montreal's ability to
      support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don't and both this subject as well as
      another that I've seen on the list today, namely the fate of the Pens hit what is the game's worst
      problem today--greed! Look at the last ten years, places like Quebec, Winnipeg, and Minnesota losing
      teams despite their obvious love for the game! And yes, a city like New York which barely supports
      two teams getting 3 and a place like Montreal having one that is huffing and puffing to keep up with
      today's insane salaries!
      If we lived in a sane world, not only would the Maroons be back but so would the Nordiques, Jets and
      NORTH Stars!

      On another note, here is anopther little bit of Maroons trivia. Are you aware that after World War
      II, we almost had the Philadelphia Maroons in the NHL. A businessman named Leonard Peto proposed to
      buy the inactive Maroon franchise and to build a new arena in the City of Brotherly Love for them. He
      went to the NHL in 1946 and the issue dragged on for about 2 years before two issues torped the idea.
      First of all, Peto failed to have the finances in order for the project, secondly, the Philadelphia
      AHL club and the Philadelphia Arena Company were taking legal action to prevent Pito from invading
      their territory. Thus, Philly wouldn't see NHL hockey for 20 more years.

      Could you imagine how history might have changed? For one thing, the Norris's would have had less of
      a hold on the Board of Governors so the Cleveland Barons may well have gotten in a few years later.
      This, is turn could have opened the door for Hal Leader's people to have come in as the NHL's west in
      the 60's. The entire face of the NHL could have been different!

      Bill Underwood

      Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:

      > From: Frank TEX Liebmann <liebmann@...>
      >
      > Jack,
      >
      > Write all you want about the Maroons. It's gerat. How do you compare the pace of the game through
      > the decades. Stats are fine, but you've seen seven decades of the sport. What is you opinion?
      >
      > Also, how about doing a Maroon's home page?
      >
      > Frank
      >
      > Jack Bailie wrote:
      >
      > > From: Jack Bailie <jack.bailie@...>
      > >
      > > This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my
      > > memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of
      > > town attending a family wedding and reunion which, incidentally, was one
      > > of the best parties in living memory. Pat, getting me started on the
      > > Maroons is easy. Getting me stopped is another matter. I lived and
      > > breathed that team, though vicariously, because this was the dirty
      > > thirties and the price of a game at the Montreal forum was not easily
      > > come by. Most of my Maroon games were enjoyed with my ear pressed
      > > against
      > > the old deForest Crosley or through the sports pages of the Montreal
      > > Star
      > > and Montreal Standard - both, like the team, long defunct. Though born
      > > in Ireland I was raised in Verdun, Quebec - a suburb of Montreal which
      > > was
      > > 50-50 French and English - hence a natural rivalry between the two
      > > NHL teams - the Maroons and the Canadiens. On any outdoor rink on any
      > > winter's day there would be almost an even number of kids wearing the
      > > Maroons sweater with the big white M or the bleu, blanc rouge of les
      > > Canadiens. I was the kid with the
      > > number four on the back of his Maroons sweater - I always pretended I
      > > was Jimmy Ward.
      > > Though times were tough I did manage to see a few games at the Forum.
      > > The Forum would sell off the remaining tickets in one end for 50 cents.
      > > This was known as the Rush End
      > > or the Millionaire's Section. They would go on sale about a half hour
      > > before game time.
      > > One wicket only on Closse Street behind the Forum. Often, if the teams
      > > were Maroons vs
      > > Canadiens or Maroons vs the Leafs, the line up would reach from the
      > > wicket to half way round the Forum. Surprisingly, I was only
      > > disappointed once. Dad and I were about six
      > > in line from the wicket when the ticket salesman called "No tikets
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      > > http://www.onelist.com
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      >
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    • Bill Underwood
      That is really interesting stuff about about Peto. I ve only ever seen him referred to as a businessman . This could be food for further research as the one
      Message 2 of 27 , May 17 7:11 PM
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        That is really interesting stuff about about Peto. I've only ever seen him referred to as a "businessman".
        This could be food for further research as the one thing that I haven't really done is to look at some old
        Philly papers from the era. I doubt that he was behind LA's later bid as the Blades owner was a James Piggot.
        However, there was a drive for LA that pre dated the Blades so I wonder... I seem to recall that Piggot was
        originally from Saskatoon and also owned the junior Blades.

        The NHL's rebuffs to expansion in the 40's through early 60's is a subject in itself. Cleveland's 1952 bid is
        just fascinating and there are two great books by Gene Kiscek about the Barons and Cleveland hockey that go
        into some detail about it. However, I never found much about the LA and Frisco bids of that era apart from
        Clarence Campbell not liking the travel yet encouraging them to"bring their arenas up to NHL standard and
        owners saying "why do I want to sacrifice dates with Toronto for games with LA." Nor is there much info that
        I've seen about a bid to build Vancouver a new arena in the early 60's to faciltate them being a partt of
        absorbing the WHL. I seem to recall this to be a Conn Smythe idea (doubtlessly because he was involved in the
        arean project I seem to remember) that never really flew.

        As for Red Wing farm teams, there is an article on the European site that you've got to see about the London
        Lions who for one year were a Red Wing farm club that was created by Bruce Norris with the idea of
        spearheading a European Pro League. I know at that time they primarily used the Virginia (aka Tidewater) Red
        Wings as an AHL affiliate.

        Finally as far as logos go, it depends upon trademarking and the status of liscenses. Some are free out there
        some aren't, each individual case has to be traced especailly in the world of defunct leagues.

        Bill Underwood

        Travis Weir wrote:

        > From: Travis Weir <weirtr@...>
        >
        > If I'm not mistaken, I think Peto was a former Montreal Canadiens club executive. The Barons
        > would have done okay had they been able to join the NHL in '47, they had some good players on their
        > squads of the early 1950s ... Johnny Bower, Bob Chrystal, et al
        >
        > Jeff / All - wasn't Len Peto the same guy who tried to get an NHL franchise going in Los Angeles during
        > the early 1960s ?
        >
        > TTYL,
        >
        > Trav
        >
        > > > From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
        > > >
        > > > The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about Montreal's ability to
        > > > support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don't and both this subject as well as
        > > > another that I've seen on the list today, namely the fate of the Pens hit what is the game's worst
        > > > problem today--greed! Look at the last ten years, places like Quebec, Winnipeg, and Minnesota losing
        > > > teams despite their obvious love for the game! And yes, a city like New York which barely supports
        > > > two teams getting 3 and a place like Montreal having one that is huffing and puffing to keep up with
        > > > today's insane salaries!
        > > > If we lived in a sane world, not only would the Maroons be back but so would the Nordiques, Jets and
        > > > NORTH Stars!
        > > >
        > > > On another note, here is anopther little bit of Maroons trivia. Are you aware that after World War
        > > > II, we almost had the Philadelphia Maroons in the NHL. A businessman named Leonard Peto proposed to
        > > > buy the inactive Maroon franchise and to build a new arena in the City of Brotherly Love for them. He
        > > > went to the NHL in 1946 and the issue dragged on for about 2 years before two issues torped the idea.
        > > > First of all, Peto failed to have the finances in order for the project, secondly, the Philadelphia
        > > > AHL club and the Philadelphia Arena Company were taking legal action to prevent Pito from invading
        > > > their territory. Thus, Philly wouldn't see NHL hockey for 20 more years.
        > > >
        > > > Could you imagine how history might have changed? For one thing, the Norris's would have had less of
        > > > a hold on the Board of Governors so the Cleveland Barons may well have gotten in a few years later.
        > > > This, is turn could have opened the door for Hal Leader's people to have come in as the NHL's west in
        > > > the 60's. The entire face of the NHL could have been different!
        > > >
        > > > Bill Underwood
        > > >
        > > > Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > From: Frank TEX Liebmann <liebmann@...>
        > > > >
        > > > > Jack,
        > > > >
        > > > > Write all you want about the Maroons. It's gerat. How do you compare the pace of the game through
        > > > > the decades. Stats are fine, but you've seen seven decades of the sport. What is you opinion?
        > > > >
        > > > > Also, how about doing a Maroon's home page?
        > > > >
        > > > > Frank
        > > > >
        > > > > Jack Bailie wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > From: Jack Bailie <jack.bailie@...>
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my
        > > > > > memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of
        > > > > > town attending a family wedding and reunion which, incidentally, was one
        > > > > > of the best parties in living memory. Pat, getting me started on the
        > > > > > Maroons is easy. Getting me stopped is another matter. I lived and
        > > > > > breathed that team, though vicariously, because this was the dirty
        > > > > > thirties and the price of a game at the Montreal forum was not easily
        > > > > > come by. Most of my Maroon games were enjoyed with my ear pressed
        > > > > > against
        > > > > > the old deForest Crosley or through the sports pages of the Montreal
        > > > > > Star
        > > > > > and Montreal Standard - both, like the team, long defunct. Though born
        > > > > > in Ireland I was raised in Verdun, Quebec - a suburb of Montreal which
        > > > > > was
        > > > > > 50-50 French and English - hence a natural rivalry between the two
        > > > > > NHL teams - the Maroons and the Canadiens. On any outdoor rink on any
        > > > > > winter's day there would be almost an even number of kids wearing the
        > > > > > Maroons sweater with the big white M or the bleu, blanc rouge of les
        > > > > > Canadiens. I was the kid with the
        > > > > > number four on the back of his Maroons sweater - I always pretended I
        > > > > > was Jimmy Ward.
        > > > > > Though times were tough I did manage to see a few games at the Forum.
        > > > > > The Forum would sell off the remaining tickets in one end for 50 cents.
        > > > > > This was known as the Rush End
        > > > > > or the Millionaire's Section. They would go on sale about a half hour
        > > > > > before game time.
        > > > > > One wicket only on Closse Street behind the Forum. Often, if the teams
        > > > > > were Maroons vs
        > > > > > Canadiens or Maroons vs the Leafs, the line up would reach from the
        > > > > > wicket to half way round the Forum. Surprisingly, I was only
        > > > > > disappointed once. Dad and I were about six
        > > > > > in line from the wicket when the ticket salesman called "No tikets
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        > > > > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
        > > > > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
        > > > >
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        > > > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        > > > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
        > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
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        > > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
        > >
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      • Bill Underwood
        Jim; I agree with what you say about New York fans. I know a lot of them, in fact my Dad loyaly stuck with the Broadway Blues through their 50+ Cupless years.
        Message 3 of 27 , May 18 12:02 AM
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          Jim;

          I agree with what you say about New York fans. I know a lot of them, in fact my Dad loyaly stuck
          with the Broadway Blues through their 50+ Cupless years. However, I just question how many there
          are out there. Look at the history of three teams in New York. Yes, the Rangers have always done
          great but when the Islanders haven't won it has been far from true for them. And what of the
          Devils who have yet to sell out regularly despite even a Stanley Cup? In fact if the Pens don't
          go to Portland, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Islanders as the next candidates for
          Mr. Allen's check book. After all, Mr. Millstein wants a new building and if he doesn't get it...

          Some New Yorkers love their hockey as much as anybody. But the important word is some. On the
          other hand, Montreal is hockey mad. I remember being up there once when a generic Hab-Nordique
          game was the front page headline over an important politcal debate-- and I don't mean in a
          tabloid. Can you see the Times ever doing that over a regular season game?


          I remember actually seeing over 1000 people fill a small suburban arena in the Quebec area during
          their lunch hour to watch the Nordique rookies scrimmage back in the 80's. At the time I was a
          scout for them in New England, and I couldn't believe it! But what surporised me even more was
          when over 10,000 out to watch our final intra squad at La Colisee at 10 AM on a Sunday morning!
          This is the psyche of the province. Hockey is baseball, football,and basketball, rolled into one.
          It is not a game, it is a part of the culture. We ahve nothing to compare 9it to in the States,
          the closest thing that I've experienced is the way that some Europeans and South Americans are
          about their soccer. I remember how in then local paper, I counted during training camp that there
          were 12 pages of the sports section devoted to the Nords and junior hockey--in Septmeber! In
          Montreal, the enthusiasm is similar! Where in the US do we get that sort of spirit?.

          Nothing against New York, after all that would include my own Dad, but hockey just isn't the same
          there. It is a great RANGER town but being a Ranger fan is just not as universal as being a Hab
          fan.

          The Maroons didn't last as long as the Amerks largely due to a few factors. First of all, the
          depression hit Quebec very badly. Montreal is not New York, it always has been more of a working
          class town not a world comrce center. And with the appeal of the French oriented Canadiens in the
          francophone community, the English Maroons were at a definite disadvantage. Plus the fact that
          they had a poor team at the height of the depression didn't help. Also, remember, Canada entered
          WW2 in 1939, so the war scare also influenced things more than in the US where we were neutral
          until Pearl Harbor.

          Also New York got three teams less out of planning than accident. The Islanders came out of the
          blue in 1972 to keep the WHA out of Nassau Coliseum. There wasn't even a thought of an NHL team
          there in any expansion plan until the WHA scared the pants off the Board of Governors. The last
          thing that they wanted was a WHA team in the Big Apple that they couldn't torp with exorbitant
          rent! like they did to the Raiders in the Garden. Had they been able to play in Nassau Coliseum,
          and get good dtaes that they couldn't at the Garden and paid lower rent, who knows, the WHA
          might've gotten more national attention and added two or three years to it's life!

          As for the Devils, they were the result of a trucking magnate in North Jersey seeing Meadowlands
          Arena sitting there so... But realistically, both of these teams have lagged at the gate more
          times than not. How often do we hear about them possible moving where as when have we ever heard
          of the Habs flying coop? And also remember, it was the Canadiens that set the record for sell
          outs by a pro sports team that lasted from 1945 well into the 80's!

          No offence meant, I have as much respect for your true Ranger fan as anybody (or Islanader or
          Devil fan) but in New York hockey is a sport, in Montreal, it is a centerpiece of life. I've seen
          it and heard it first hand over 20 years of visiting and, at times, doing work there. I don't
          mean to belittle New York fans but rather to do homage to Montrealers.

          Bill Underwood
          James Karkoski wrote:

          > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
          >
          > >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
          > >
          > >The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about
          > >Montreal's ability to
          > >support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don't and both
          > >this subject as well as
          > >another that I've seen on the list today, namely the fate of the Pens hit
          > >what is the game's worst
          > >problem today--greed! Look at the last ten years, places like Quebec,
          > >Winnipeg, and Minnesota losing
          > >teams despite their obvious love for the game! And yes, a city like New
          > >York which barely supports
          > >two teams getting 3 and a place like Montreal having one that is huffing
          > >and puffing to keep up with
          > >today's insane salaries!
          >
          > I'm not so sure you are being fair to the New York area fans.
          >
          > If you want to talk about the Maroons, then you have to talk about the
          > Americans, who despite not having anything near the success of the
          > Maroons were around longer than they were.
          >
          > The tradition of hockey in Montreal might have been a bit more glorious,
          > a lot more romantic and successful but I don't think New York doesn't
          > have one which isn't any less than the one in Montreal. Just because it
          > hasn't been written about as much as Montreal has doesn't mean that it
          > didn't have one.
          >
          > Unlike Montreal,having suffered through such lousy teams for so long,
          > maybe the Greater Metropolitian area does deserve three teams? The
          > Rangers will sell out no matter what kind of team they have, can the same
          > be said for the Canadiens??
          >
          > James
          >
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        • Bill Underwood
          Jim; You bring up tsome good points. And I would actually disagree with you that Americans don t nationalize at least one sport--football. I m from Philly but
          Message 4 of 27 , May 18 3:49 AM
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            Jim;

            You bring up tsome good points. And I would actually disagree with you that Americans don't
            nationalize at least one sport--football. I'm from Philly but am a loyal Redskin fan and I know
            almost as many Dallas fans as I know Eagles fans around here. So we DO go nuts over one sport as
            a nation. Now let's say that Green Bay were to move to Toronto. They'd be in a bigger market and
            them instantly becoming "Canada's" team would probably mean a lot more money even after Canadian
            taxes and currency devaluation than they make in Green Bay. Sure it makes economic sense, but is
            it really right? As an American, I would probably be more than a liitle ticked that a great "one
            sport" town lost it's team to a city that is really luke warm to the NFL. Then again maybe the
            NFL should maybe put The Pack, Buffalo, and New England into big Canadian cities to get new fans
            to put thier money out and get them into the game. After all Pats fans seem to "put their faces
            in their hands and stay away" when their boys aren't Super Bowl bound. Why should NFL cities have
            to have 50 years of 4 down football to warrant teams. Why should football have to be a major
            sport there? So while we're at it, why not the Bengals to Mexico City. After all more
            millionaires live there than in most US cities. And them being Mexico's only team, I'm sure that
            they could pull in a lot more dough than those fair weather Cincy fans can!

            The NFL would NEVER hearv of this!!!! Notice that Cleveland lost it's team to the "Alter of the
            Almighty Buck" but the league took care oif it's loyal fans by working to get them a team back.
            Even fickled LA will similarly get one and doubrtlessly Houston. This is why the NFL is the
            world's greatest sports league--it understands that you don't just bring new fans in but also
            care for your oldest and loyalest. Heck, if that wasn' the case, Green Bay would have been gone
            50 years ago!

            As an American, I'm very proud of the NFL, it espouses very American principles--profit through
            taking good care of your best customers! Has the NHL done that--no!!

            Granted, the reasons for team transfers are economic-- mostly, the fact that Canada's economy
            lags behind ours badly! When will they see the light in Ottawa (ditto but less so in Washington)
            and lower taxes! But this is more than a Canada-US issue. Pittsburgh may lose their team next!
            While it is true that the Pens attendance has fluctuated wildly over the years, that is not why
            the team may leave now! In fact it seems like the game finally began to really take root there
            and now it may go all for naught! Is that far sighted?

            Maybe I'm myopic, but I think that the goal is to get every sport to be like the NFL is here or
            hockey is in Canada--where it doesn'y really matter whose playing, if it's a good game, they'll
            watch it! And as for your assertion that come playoff time in the US, we see press and media
            attention that is even comparable to Canada--I beg to differ! I live in Philly, and have been
            here during Flyer Cup runs and also in Canada during the Cup. There is NO comparison! Plus, in
            Canada, you don't need a Cup run to generate interest, it's just like the NFL is here! I'm
            swamped with 10 pages every Monday from August til January about the latest Eagle fiasco
            alone--let alone the rest of the NFL news!

            As for the assertion that Hab fans desert their team --their attendance prooves that to be VERY
            wrong! Remeber, Wayne Gretzky didn't use the term "Mickey Mouse" about the Forum! While they do
            make criticism a high art-- it 's not so different in football here! How many quips do you think
            I had this year about the ineptitude of Norv Turner and his clowns in Red this year. Just like we
            Redskin fans expect Super Bowls, Hab fans expect-- and demand Stanley Cups! It's just being used
            to high standards!

            But as I said before, there is NOBODY more loyal than a Ranger fan. Yau are right about that! And
            Flyer fans are true fanatics too. But you talk about fair weather fans in Montreal, where is that
            Islander legion when Cups aren't in the offing there? They sure aren't in Nassau Coliseum! Have
            you checked out their attendance over the past ten years? And where have the Devil fans ever
            been? It's amazing how when the Rangers or Flyers play there, They sell outs. But what about for
            Nashville and Tampa? And what about when they haven't been riding high in the standings. Sure,
            while they do have acore fandom, it just isn't all that big or they would sell out ALL the time
            ala the Rangers, Flyers, or Habs. There is a hockey community in New York that is great and more
            than enough to support one team royally, all I'm questioning is it's size to supprt 2 or 3!

            Now as for new fans in new cities spending their money in these new towns--lets get something
            stright, it's like a convention of Northeastern transplants at those games. If that weren't so,
            how come the WNBA drew better TV ratings than the NHL last year. And that is a fact, not a barb!
            Maybe that "basketball guy" ought to go talk to the ladies about ratings! IOf the locals were
            that into hockey, the TV ratings in those areas could beat MLS soccer! Sure, there are some
            locals that support the spo0rt particularly in Dallas, but again, how many? And isn't that at
            least a factor to consider in talking about a region supporting a team? Much like mu Mexico City
            NFL team, you could probably cram 100,000 a game into their soccer stadium, which sure beats many
            US cities. But how much actual support would their be at large compared to a Green Bay where even
            the dogs wear Packer doggie coats?

            Let's also talk about the "Bettman Years". What have we got? A team filing Chapter 11, another
            one moving to a town where more maintainance workers were at games than fans (Carolina), 4
            franchise shifts after nearly a decade with none, ticket prices that are for the rich and famous,
            and goals becoming as rare as the Whooping Crane thanks to the new cash and carry franchise
            policy. This is not to mention the games first strike that cost us half a season, and salary
            inflation numbers reminiscent of the Brazilain economy iof the 70's. How long can this go on
            without something breaking?

            And many of these "new fans" are actually coorporations, remember. How many seats are courtesy of
            your boss. Do you really believe that locals walk up to buy them. And people go to anything that
            is free. Tonight hockey, next month wrestling. Is this loyalty? In Tampa, do you know how they
            drew those big numbers early on? They played in baseball building and sold nose bleed seats for 5
            bucks to pad the attendance!

            Now what will happen when our Congress wises up and changes the tax code to cut us all a break?
            Loop holes may close and unless there is some REAL loyalty there, what will happen to those clubs
            who rely on tax write off tickets? Companies will still buy seats to the NFL, it's the great
            American game! But the NHL--we'll see...especailly as we are reaching the realm of $100 seats in
            some towns!

            And does anybody REALLY think that hockey is better with 27 teams? Ism't the talent just a little
            thin. Bettman must think so. After all, he put a gag order memo out to all teams to not criticize
            expansion. Do you really enjoy the nil- nil scores with under 30 shots for both teams combined
            that we are so often treated to?

            Sure, there have been some good things done by Mr. Bettman, I always give credit where it is due.
            The World Cup and Olympics are great shows, I only wish that we could see hockey at that level
            more often. Not to mention getting some minds like David Hill at Fox, Ted Turner, and Disney
            involved. They can only help on the games presentation. Also, the development of the elite teams
            in the West has given us one or two great playoff series a year to relish. And no, I am not
            aginst new fans getting to see hockey. After all, I've been involved in mostly Southern based
            minor leagues for years! The fans may not be as knowledgable but do catch on and are great
            people! Of course they should get hockey in some league and some form--they really are great
            folks!

            All I'm saying is what about hockey's Green Bays and Cincys? Doesn't it seem just a little bit
            right to keep them in there too? And isn't it time for this great game to take pause and look at
            something beyond the dollar? The NFL did in a small Wisconsin city much to it's profit and
            credit.

            And please, again, don't take offence at my statements about New York--I don't see what was so
            offensive! My Dad is a New Yorker, I went to college in the Empire State and lived there for
            almost 10 years. New Yorkers are great and Ranger fans are some of my favorite crowds out there.
            But So are Canadians. And they deserve respect too! They respect the near century old Yankee
            tradition and grant that there is something to be said for devotion to a sport and team loyalty.
            And I don't know about you, but the idea of the Jersey Yankees makes me sick! Remember if Babe
            Ruth's bust goes to the big swamp, it's just the same disease that took the Nords and Jets! There
            is NO pardoning it! It may be economic reality-- but it isn't right!

            Just as the NFL prooved in Cleveland, there ARE ways to get things done and to do the right thing
            as well as make a clean half billion! They didn't have to go back there, they could have done
            the smart business move and made expansion be LA or bust! But they saw the incredible damege that
            they took in PR with loyal fans who had a great 50 year old tradition and found a solution. Why
            can't the NHL treat it's loyal Canadian fans and their great legacy with the same respect? Maybe
            it just doesn't have it for them! Reviving the Maroons will never happen. We are moving in a one
            team for one town direction, and this is probably prudent. The Minnesota issue has taken care of
            itself. But what of Quebec and Winnipeg? The NFL has helped "poor little Jeff Lurie " in Philly
            procure funds for his new barn. Why can't the NHL work like that? Instead it's a Darwinian,
            myopic, sink or swim view that is held there! Where is a Pete Rozelle when you need him?

            PS, I really like this little debate, you are very knowledgable! And I'd love to see another Cup
            parade in New York soon! For the type of spirit that Ranger fans have, once is not enough and the
            Devils are too good a team not to get another crack. As for the Islanders...I hope something good
            can happen. It has to be tough, every time things seem to look up, they fall right back down.

            Bill Underwood
            James Karkoski wrote:

            > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
            >
            > >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
            >
            > >Some New Yorkers love their hockey as much as anybody. But the important
            > >word is some. On the other hand, Montreal is hockey mad.
            >
            > If some fans will pay all the seats, pay enough attention to the media
            > sources that carry
            > the team, and buy enough liscened products of the team so that the club
            > is happy with the profit margin it makes on the operation, doesn't that
            > make the city pretty "hockey mad"?
            >
            > Why does the whole city have to be turned on to hockey, or have this
            > fifty year history of hockey, to warrant that it has a NHL franchise if
            > the "some fans" in a "non-hockey area" will carry the puck and the team
            > makes money??
            >
            > The problem with cities like Winnipeg, Quebec and Minnea./St. Paul is
            > that unless the team is an absolute winner they won't support it as much
            > as the hockey-starved "some fans" in "a non-hockey" area will.
            >
            > >This is the psyche of the province. Hockey is baseball, football,and
            > >basketball, rolled into one. It is not a game, it is a part of the culture.
            > We ahve
            > >nothing to compare it to in the States,the closest thing that I've
            > experienced is the way
            > >that some Europeans and South Americans are about their soccer. Where in the
            > US do we get
            > >that sort of spirit?.
            >
            > Any time anyone's team gets on a playoff run is when that spirit catches
            > on in the US. That is true for any sport in the US and and in the world.
            > The difference is that we never take it up to the national level like
            > hockey fans in Canada and soccer fans in South American and Europe do. We
            > don't "nationalize" our sports. That is our culture, I guess.
            >
            > >Nothing against New York, after all that would include my own Dad, but
            > >hockey just isn't the same there. It is a great RANGER town but being a
            > Ranger fan is just
            > >not as universal as being a Hab fan.
            >
            > Just because a fan in Montreal has more access to hockey doesn't make
            > them "a more universal fan" than a person in New York, or any US City for
            > that matter. Living in "a non hockey area" doesn't make anyone with an
            > interest in hockey any less erudite than someone who does.Maybe 30 years
            > ago, but not in this tele-media age.
            >
            > The problems with Habs fans is that when the team doesn't have a chance
            > for the Cup the fans will start to ignore it in some strange sort of way
            > until it does. When the team doesn't meet their standards then they will
            > simply start to be coy to its existance and sort of watch it with a hand
            > over their eyes pretending not to notice until it does.
            >
            > Rangers fans have always rooted on hope the "maybe this will be the
            > year". Both eyes on the team until it finally expired. So, who is the
            > better fan, the one who switches the tv on when the team is in the
            > playoffs or the one who switches it off when the team is out of the
            > playoffs??
            >
            > I think you made a good point which most people outside of the US don't
            > understand about hockey fans in the US. That they get attached to the
            > game through their love of a team.Which is why "that Basketball guy" who
            > is running the NHL keeps stuffing teams into "non-hockey" places. He's
            > giving the US fans more teams to love.
            >
            > Sure,it is about money, but it is also about making money from fans who
            > really haven't spent money on hockey before, or reconnecting with fans
            > who don't have the opportunity to spend money on hockey anymore. What is
            > wrong with trying to find new fans or reclaim old ones??
            >
            > >Also New York got three teams less out of planning than accident. The
            > Islanders came out
            > >of the blue in 1972 to keep the WHA out of Nassau Coliseum. There wasn't even
            > a
            > >thought of an NHL teamthere in any expansion plan until the WHA scared the
            > pants off the
            > >Board of Governors. The last thing that they wanted was a WHA team in the Big
            > Apple that
            > >they couldn't torp with exorbitant rent! like they did to the Raiders in the
            > Garden.
            >
            > Think of the Islanders expansion this way: The NHL was scared that the
            > Raiders would get the attention of all those Ranger fans that couldn't
            > get in the Garden. So,they gave them another NHL team.
            >
            > The Islander expansion, like any other NHL expansion until the 1990s, was
            > a reaction to the something in the world around rather than any "plan" on
            > the NHL's part.
            >
            > >As for the Devils, they were the result of a trucking magnate in North
            > >Jersey seeing Meadowlands Arena sitting there so...
            >
            > And the Meadowlands actually sits almost smack dab in the middle between
            > two cities that sell out absolutely every game. The Rangers on the right,
            > and the Flyers on the left. The NHL was more than happy to let John
            > McMullen pay them so he could pack a franchise no one in KC or Denver
            > would watch into some of his trucks and drive them there.
            >
            >
            > >No offence meant, I have as much respect for your true Ranger fan as anybody
            > (or Islanader
            > >or Devil fan) but in New York hockey is a sport, in Montreal, it is a
            > centerpiece of life.
            > >I've seen it and heard it first hand over 20 years of visiting and, at times,
            > doing
            > >work there. I don't mean to belittle New York fans but rather to do homage to
            > Montrealers.
            >
            > Well, different cultures have different attitudes towards things. That's
            > not to say one of these attitudes towards hockey is any better than the
            > others. It's not the US sports fans fault that their are other sports
            > besides hockey around to take an interest in.I'm not sure that's what
            > your not doing when you say the hockey is "a way of life" in Montreal and
            > merely "a sport" in New York.
            >
            > James
            >
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          • Bill Underwood
            You may be right, I never thought of that! Maybe your luck will change! The Canucks seem to have the backing to survive in todays NHL and DEFINITELY have great
            Message 5 of 27 , May 18 3:53 AM
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              You may be right, I never thought of that! Maybe your luck will change! The Canucks seem to have the
              backing to survive in todays NHL and DEFINITELY have great fans!
              It would be nice to see a Cup there someday too!

              Bill Underwood

              Joe wrote:

              > From: Joe <fuzzymonkey@...>
              >
              > >
              >
              > Hi all. Very interesting arguments for both sides here.
              >
              > > Rangers fans have always rooted on hope the "maybe this will be the
              > > year". Both eyes on the team until it finally expired. So, who is the
              > > better fan, the one who switches the tv on when the team is in the
              > > playoffs or the one who switches it off when the team is out of the
              > > playoffs??
              >
              > Born in British Columbia, I've always been a Canuck fan. For morethan 20 years I've stood by them
              > (although its tough with Orca Bay
              > and hasbeen Mark Messier around), as have a lot of faithful Vancouver
              > fans. By the above quoted argument, maybe the Canucks have the
              > best fans! They've probably been the worst team over the past
              > 30 years! The NHL's version of the LA Clippers!
              >
              > Joe
              > Hockey Over Time
              > http://www.lcshockey.com/history
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            • Bill Underwood
              The one thng that I do find in Minnesota is that theyt seem to really prefer amatuer hockey. There sure is a lot of tradition there for it but it s too bad
              Message 6 of 27 , May 18 3:56 AM
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                The one thng that I do find in Minnesota is that theyt seem to really prefer amatuer hockey. There
                sure is a lot of tradition there for it but it's too bad that the pro game doesn't generate the same
                reaction. Maybe the answer is to stock the Wild with a lot of home brews! But it is relly surprising
                that NO Minnesotans are on this list, where are you guys?

                Bill Underwood

                Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:

                > From: Frank TEX Liebmann <liebmann@...>
                >
                > This will probably add some fuel to the fire.
                >
                > I have also wondered why pro hockey can't succeed in Minnesota. For a state that claims to be so
                > hockey crazy, the pro game doesn't exist there. Is it that people are so lad back that they don't
                > care?
                >
                > What puzzles me more is why there's nobody from Minnesota on this list. We had one person from
                > Minnesota who was on the list for 3 days. And yet we have no trouble getting people from Georgia,
                > South Carolina, Arizona and California. What gives?
                >
                > (Could we be wondering where the Wild are going to move in five years?)
                >
                > Frank
                >
                > James Karkoski wrote:
                >
                > > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
                > >
                > > >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                > >
                > > >Some New Yorkers love their hockey as much as anybody. But the important
                > > >word is some. On the other hand, Montreal is hockey mad.
                > >
                > > If some fans will pay all the seats, pay enough attention to the media
                > > sources that carry
                > > the team, and buy enough liscened products of the team so that the club
                > > is happy with the profit margin it makes on the operation, doesn't that
                > > make the city pretty "hockey mad"?
                > >
                > > Why does the whole city have to be turned on to hockey, or have this
                > > fifty year history of hockey, to warrant that it has a NHL franchise if
                > > the "some fans" in a "non-hockey area" will carry the puck and the team
                > > makes money??
                > >
                > > The problem with cities like Winnipeg, Quebec and Minnea./St. Paul is
                > > that unless the team is an absolute winner they won't support it as much
                > > as the hockey-starved "some fans" in "a non-hockey" area will.
                > >
                > > >This is the psyche of the province. Hockey is baseball, football,and
                > > >basketball, rolled into one. It is not a game, it is a part of the culture.
                > > We ahve
                > > >nothing to compare it to in the States,the closest thing that I've
                > > experienced is the way
                > > >that some Europeans and South Americans are about their soccer. Where in the
                > > US do we get
                > > >that sort of spirit?.
                > >
                > > Any time anyone's team gets on a playoff run is when that spirit catches
                > > on in the US. That is true for any sport in the US and and in the world.
                > > The difference is that we never take it up to the national level like
                > > hockey fans in Canada and soccer fans in South American and Europe do. We
                > > don't "nationalize" our sports. That is our culture, I guess.
                > >
                > > >Nothing against New York, after all that would include my own Dad, but
                > > >hockey just isn't the same there. It is a great RANGER town but being a
                > > Ranger fan is just
                > > >not as universal as being a Hab fan.
                > >
                > > Just because a fan in Montreal has more access to hockey doesn't make
                > > them "a more universal fan" than a person in New York, or any US City for
                > > that matter. Living in "a non hockey area" doesn't make anyone with an
                > > interest in hockey any less erudite than someone who does.Maybe 30 years
                > > ago, but not in this tele-media age.
                > >
                > > The problems with Habs fans is that when the team doesn't have a chance
                > > for the Cup the fans will start to ignore it in some strange sort of way
                > > until it does. When the team doesn't meet their standards then they will
                > > simply start to be coy to its existance and sort of watch it with a hand
                > > over their eyes pretending not to notice until it does.
                > >
                > > Rangers fans have always rooted on hope the "maybe this will be the
                > > year". Both eyes on the team until it finally expired. So, who is the
                > > better fan, the one who switches the tv on when the team is in the
                > > playoffs or the one who switches it off when the team is out of the
                > > playoffs??
                > >
                > > I think you made a good point which most people outside of the US don't
                > > understand about hockey fans in the US. That they get attached to the
                > > game through their love of a team.Which is why "that Basketball guy" who
                > > is running the NHL keeps stuffing teams into "non-hockey" places. He's
                > > giving the US fans more teams to love.
                > >
                > > Sure,it is about money, but it is also about making money from fans who
                > > really haven't spent money on hockey before, or reconnecting with fans
                > > who don't have the opportunity to spend money on hockey anymore. What is
                > > wrong with trying to find new fans or reclaim old ones??
                > >
                > > >Also New York got three teams less out of planning than accident. The
                > > Islanders came out
                > > >of the blue in 1972 to keep the WHA out of Nassau Coliseum. There wasn't even
                > > a
                > > >thought of an NHL teamthere in any expansion plan until the WHA scared the
                > > pants off the
                > > >Board of Governors. The last thing that they wanted was a WHA team in the Big
                > > Apple that
                > > >they couldn't torp with exorbitant rent! like they did to the Raiders in the
                > > Garden.
                > >
                > > Think of the Islanders expansion this way: The NHL was scared that the
                > > Raiders would get the attention of all those Ranger fans that couldn't
                > > get in the Garden. So,they gave them another NHL team.
                > >
                > > The Islander expansion, like any other NHL expansion until the 1990s, was
                > > a reaction to the something in the world around rather than any "plan" on
                > > the NHL's part.
                > >
                > > >As for the Devils, they were the result of a trucking magnate in North
                > > >Jersey seeing Meadowlands Arena sitting there so...
                > >
                > > And the Meadowlands actually sits almost smack dab in the middle between
                > > two cities that sell out absolutely every game. The Rangers on the right,
                > > and the Flyers on the left. The NHL was more than happy to let John
                > > McMullen pay them so he could pack a franchise no one in KC or Denver
                > > would watch into some of his trucks and drive them there.
                > >
                > >
                > > >No offence meant, I have as much respect for your true Ranger fan as anybody
                > > (or Islanader
                > > >or Devil fan) but in New York hockey is a sport, in Montreal, it is a
                > > centerpiece of life.
                > > >I've seen it and heard it first hand over 20 years of visiting and, at times,
                > > doing
                > > >work there. I don't mean to belittle New York fans but rather to do homage to
                > > Montrealers.
                > >
                > > Well, different cultures have different attitudes towards things. That's
                > > not to say one of these attitudes towards hockey is any better than the
                > > others. It's not the US sports fans fault that their are other sports
                > > besides hockey around to take an interest in.I'm not sure that's what
                > > your not doing when you say the hockey is "a way of life" in Montreal and
                > > merely "a sport" in New York.
                > >
                > > James
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > ONElist: where the world talks!
                > > http://www.onelist.com
                > > Join a new list today.
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
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              • Bill Underwood
                Exactly the point Frank! Mexico City DOES have a case for a team but does this mean that the NFL goes running off and throwing one there at the expense of a
                Message 7 of 27 , May 18 4:19 AM
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                  Exactly the point Frank! Mexico City DOES have a case for a team but does this mean that the NFL
                  goes running off and throwing one there at the expense of a traditiional market? Absolutely not!
                  They are more than frugal about expansion doing it when and where it is appropriate, not just to
                  underwrite red ink. Note, they just REPLACED Cleveland this time as opposed to rushing into two new
                  teams, although there is no doubt at all that they could have had a second group in easily! The
                  entire point of this expansion was to right a wrong in Cleveland. Prior to the Browns move, there
                  were no plans to grow at all. Hence, a sensitivity to a loyal customer base, that is quite unique
                  has been displayed, as has a success by the NFL in marketing been achieved over theses past 50
                  years that is equally unique. Just watch, Houston will be "fixed" next after they are sure that LA
                  has benn dealt with properly!

                  The whole point is that the NHL needs to enter the 21st century and learn the PR game. It has to
                  stop selling teams to the John Spanoses of the world (I forgot to list that on the Gary Bettman
                  achievement list) and start looking at PR. The NFL knows that roving franchises are BAD PR, the NHL
                  may understand that too but does precious little about it! Sure thay give some aid to the Canadian
                  teams, but what about the Pittsburghs? There is nothing bad about a team that doesn't draw moving,
                  but Quebec and Winnipeg DID draw, even in morbid years, just like the Browns. And, like the Browns,
                  they were largely victims of not getting new buildings, same with the Pens. How long do fans have
                  to be held prisoner to some other community going out and building some shiney new arena and
                  stealing your team if you don't accept new taxes to subsidize a new one of your own?

                  Bill Underwood

                  Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:

                  > From: Frank TEX Liebmann <liebmann@...>
                  >
                  > > to have 50 years of 4 down football to warrant teams. Why should football have to be a major
                  > > sport there? So while we're at it, why not the Bengals to Mexico City.
                  >
                  > That being said, wasn't the biggest crowd in NFL history in Mexico City?
                  >
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                • Bill Underwood
                  Jim I really am not confusing the issue at all. I am talking precisely about the average Joe or Joanne in the street. In Canada, hockey is a part of the
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 18 6:06 AM
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                    Jim

                    I really am not confusing the issue at all. I am talking precisely about the average Joe or
                    Joanne in the street. In Canada, hockey is a part of the average family like baseball is here.
                    Fathers pass it on to sons, and yes, even mom and sis are somehow involved. Ask any average
                    Canadian and they'll talk about watching Hockey Night in Canada like we remember Monday Night
                    Football as kids. When I was even just a lowly scout with the Nords, I'd get into Montreal
                    nightclubs for free and be brought to the front of the line to get in on busy Saturday nights,
                    why, because the owner would know that I was working in the NHL. In the US, a normal question in
                    a similar situation would be "who are the Nordiques?" You said people from pther countries don't
                    understand American sports psyche, I think it's the other way around. We just can't imagine a
                    place where sports pursuits don't switch season to season. We have so many diversions here! We
                    also have so many stars in so many sports so it's hard to grasp the idea of a sport that is
                    "yours" and really your specialty. It's tough to understand how Canadians take a deep pride in
                    having something that is really theirs because we have so much to claim as "ours". Canada is a
                    nation of 29,000,000 people living right next some door to a 270 million person giant. And we
                    cast a huge shadow! We are a military and economic superpower, our TV and culture spills across
                    the border everyday. Hockey is one area where, they turn the tables on us. Harry Sinden once said
                    that "Canada is number one in two things, hockey and wheat... in that order!" This is a prevalent
                    view!

                    And it has nothing to do with World Cups! Canadians were at one time very American in this way.
                    Nobody gave a damn about the Olympics or Worlds. Canada sent a lesser team and they were looked
                    at like we look at the NBA teams in the Olympics or the World Basketball Title.. sort of tongue
                    in cheek! That was unitl 1972, when national pride came on the line! Until then, only the Stanley
                    Cup counted, it was the only REAL title! Believe me, if there ever is real international American
                    Football and we are seriously challenged, you'll see our view become different too!

                    I suggest that you go to Canada some time and visit the smaller cities and towns during ju hockey
                    season and see what I've seen. It is hockey heaven! Kids can play on teams for free up there vis
                    a vis down here where it costs thousands of dollars to play in most areas. Do you realize that to
                    play on a top midget or junior team in the Philly/New York area, it costs $2,000-3,000 tuition?
                    This does NOT include equiptment, travel or anything except the ice time! And it has to be that
                    way as there is NO community support. In Canada, this seems crazy! I once talked to the man in
                    charge of a midget AAA program in Quebec. They had a $400,000 budget! Their kids were NOT charged
                    a dime! It was community and corporate support. Down here, try to ask anybody for money for youth
                    hockey and see how quickly the door slams if it is for anything over a pittance! I know of only 2
                    teams with major sponsorship!

                    So it has NOTHING to do with players or ex players, it has to do with hockey being like high
                    school football, little league baseball and CYO basketball combined. It is a community thing!

                    I run summer hockey leagues and talk quite often to people on both sides of the border regularly
                    on these matters. Canadians are in a different world! It's too bad for our players too! Poor kids
                    simply can't play the game down here, it's tough in the Mid Atlantic if you aren't at least upper
                    middle class. This is the difference! Most high schools don't even really recognize varsity teams
                    in PA and Jersey. Why? They don't want anything to do with insurance or money. In Canada, this is
                    inconcievable for a communtity not to ACTIVELY support their local teams is unthinkable! It's
                    much more likely that a town or school's football program is scrapped than hockey uop there!.

                    Look, I never said that you had to play the game or grow up with it to love it or understand it.
                    I don't know if you played or not and it really doesn't matter, you seem to be a good fan and
                    truly knowledgable. All I'm saying is that people (like you or me) that really care about or
                    understand hockey are a minority in most of the US. This is NOT true in Canada! If you took a
                    straw poll on a street in the US, just asking everyone that went by, male, female, old, or youg
                    two questions: who are the 4 teams left in the running for the Cup and to name two players on
                    each team, better than 50% would draw a total blank. I doubt that in Canada you'd find that.
                    Likewise, try the same thing in early January about the Super Bowl down here and the story will
                    be different! There is more of a universal interest up there. This isn't to say that every
                    Canadian is a hockey guru or gets ecstatic over the game--just more so than here!

                    It is something that is VERY foreign to Americans, I know, it bowled me a bit over when I first
                    saw it! It's all uniquely Canadian! Ken Dryeden does the best job that I've seen in print
                    explaining it but until you've really seen it...I remember having a lengthy conversation with a
                    lady once about Claude Lemieux's style of instigation once. There isn't a cab driver in town or a
                    waiter that doesn't have their two bits to say about the playoffs! I doubt that they all are ex
                    players and if so only played as children! It is just a part of life up there!

                    I'll grant you that my experience is a bit unique. I'm US born and raised, am fromPhilly, not one
                    of our three big hockey areas, and have been involved in the game as a player down here as an
                    amateur and in the scouting/promoting end in both countries. But it has given me a chance to
                    really see the staus of the game in both nations and several regions.
                    This doesn't mean that new areas don't deserve the game. Heck, for the past 8 years I've been
                    involved with teams and leagues that are mostly in Dixie. I surely do believe in spreading the
                    game! I just don't believe that the price should be loyal amrkets and loyal fans. Both should be
                    served. Look at the NFL, it runs NFL Europe and puts a lot of money in the CFL but it doesn't go
                    saying "we'll trade Grren Bay for London"! The key is to get new fans AND keep the old!

                    And I also want to say again, it's NOT just a US-Canada issue! What about Pittsburgh?
                    Hockey is finally getting a real niche there and the Pens may be out of there! This game HAS to
                    deal with this issue!

                    Bill Underwood
                    James Karkoski wrote:

                    > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
                    >
                    > >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                    >
                    > >You bring up tsome good points. And I would actually disagree with you
                    > >that Americans don't nationalize at least one sport--football.
                    >
                    > Yes, Americans do pay attention to football on the national level in the
                    > US, but there is no "World Cup of American Football" where there is a
                    > passionate zeal for an national team in competition against other nations
                    > teams. There has never been an experience like a World Cup, or the 72
                    > Canada-Soviet Series which one country lives and dies by the result of
                    > their national team.
                    >
                    > The reason why I have been posting is because I think that since you are
                    > an ex-scout that you are confusing the world of hockey for the players
                    > with the world of hockey for the fans. When you write about how "hockey
                    > is the centerpiece of life in Montreal" while "it is only a sport in New
                    > York," you have confused the two worlds of player and fan into one
                    > confused ball which no longer is making the distinction between the two.
                    >
                    > My point basically is that you don't need to be an ex-player to be a
                    > great fan and that it is a lot more difficult to become a hockey fan,and
                    > stay a hockey fan, in the US because it isn't
                    > "hockey mad" as Canada is. You don't get the coverage on tv or in the
                    > newspaper which makes it harder to follow and keep in contact with the
                    > sport.That makes you a different kind of fan.
                    >
                    > James
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Campaign 2000 is here!
                    > http://www.onelist.com
                    > Discuss your thoughts; get informed at ONElist. See our homepage.
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                    > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                    > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                  • Houda
                    ... I love that line became a fanatical supporter of the Montreal Maroons . That s beautiful. Did you ever see them play ? and if so,do you have any good
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 20 3:51 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >Jack Bailie
                      >Residing: Knowlton, Quebec (90ks east of Montreal)
                      >Retired from advertising bizz...agency creative director.
                      >Past: Born Belfast,1924, to Canada at age 4, became a fanatical
                      >supporter
                      >of the Montreal Maroons. Still am.


                      ---> Jack,

                      I love that line "became a fanatical supporter of the Montreal Maroons".

                      That's beautiful. Did you ever see them play ? and if so,do you have any
                      good memories from then that you would like to share with us on the list ?
                      You were after all 14 when the team still was in the NHL.

                      I think it's great when we have list members who were around to see the
                      old defunct teams. That's a tremendous asset to this list.
                      I would love to hear any stories (not taken from a book),especially related
                      to some of those defunct clubs.
                      Maroons,Americans,Eagles,Senators (old),,Quakers and Pirates.

                      If anybody have any memories from the late 20's and 30's then I would love
                      to hear from you. Jack ?

                      PS: Jack,you were to young to remember the famous Maroons "S" line of
                      Babe Siebert, Nels Stewart and Hooley Smith but what about some of the
                      other Maroons players later on ?


                      Pat
                    • Houda
                      (I wrote) ... I didn t mean that you didn t remember the players. What I ment was that I guess you don t remember the S line in particular. Pat
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 20 4:00 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        (I wrote)
                        >PS: Jack,you were to young to remember the famous Maroons "S" line of
                        >Babe Siebert, Nels Stewart and Hooley Smith but what about some of the
                        >other Maroons players later on ?



                        ---> Sorry,let me refrase it.
                        I didn't mean that you didn't remember the players.
                        What I ment was that I guess you don't remember the "S" line in particular.

                        Pat
                      • Houda
                        Jack, Thanks for sharing your memories from the 30 s. I m eagerly awaiting for more. Don t worry about getting stopped. I ll read as much as you can write. If
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 26 3:34 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jack,

                          Thanks for sharing your memories from
                          the 30's.
                          I'm eagerly awaiting for more.
                          Don't worry about getting stopped.
                          I'll read as much as you can write.
                          If other list members get bored (which I doubt),
                          then you're more than welcome sharing your
                          memories off-line.

                          List member Joe Pelletier has a great site up
                          named Hockey Over Time. www.lcshockey.com/history
                          I'm assisting Joe in writing profiles of retired NHL players.
                          I'm sure that Joe, as much as I would love to hear your
                          personal views on some of the old players,like for example
                          Jimmy Ward. What can you tell us about him ?
                          How was he as a player ? What were his strengths and
                          weaknesses ?
                          Information about the old players is invaluable when it comes
                          from someone who has seen them play.
                          Memories from some of the obscure players would be
                          especially thrilling I think.

                          Anyway,you seem to be the only one on this list who remembers
                          the players from the 30's.
                          Since I'm like a sponge when it comes to "old time hockey",I just
                          love to hear any story from that era.

                          Thanks

                          Pat
                        • Jack Bailie
                          This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of town attending a
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 26 4:15 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my
                            memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of
                            town attending a family wedding and reunion which, incidentally, was one
                            of the best parties in living memory. Pat, getting me started on the
                            Maroons is easy. Getting me stopped is another matter. I lived and
                            breathed that team, though vicariously, because this was the dirty
                            thirties and the price of a game at the Montreal forum was not easily
                            come by. Most of my Maroon games were enjoyed with my ear pressed
                            against
                            the old deForest Crosley or through the sports pages of the Montreal
                            Star
                            and Montreal Standard - both, like the team, long defunct. Though born
                            in Ireland I was raised in Verdun, Quebec - a suburb of Montreal which
                            was
                            50-50 French and English - hence a natural rivalry between the two
                            NHL teams - the Maroons and the Canadiens. On any outdoor rink on any
                            winter's day there would be almost an even number of kids wearing the
                            Maroons sweater with the big white M or the bleu, blanc rouge of les
                            Canadiens. I was the kid with the
                            number four on the back of his Maroons sweater - I always pretended I
                            was Jimmy Ward.
                            Though times were tough I did manage to see a few games at the Forum.
                            The Forum would sell off the remaining tickets in one end for 50 cents.
                            This was known as the Rush End
                            or the Millionaire's Section. They would go on sale about a half hour
                            before game time.
                            One wicket only on Closse Street behind the Forum. Often, if the teams
                            were Maroons vs
                            Canadiens or Maroons vs the Leafs, the line up would reach from the
                            wicket to half way round the Forum. Surprisingly, I was only
                            disappointed once. Dad and I were about six
                            in line from the wicket when the ticket salesman called "No tikets
                          • Joe
                            First off, hello to all the newcomers. I ve been away lately and unable to fully participate. ... Absolutely agreed. I ll listen to anything you wantto share.
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 26 8:45 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              First off, hello to all the newcomers. I've been away lately
                              and unable to fully participate.

                              Houda wrote:

                              > Jack,
                              >
                              > Thanks for sharing your memories from
                              > the 30's.
                              > I'm eagerly awaiting for more.
                              > Don't worry about getting stopped.
                              > I'll read as much as you can write.
                              > If other list members get bored (which I doubt),
                              > then you're more than welcome sharing your
                              > memories off-line.

                              Absolutely agreed. I'll listen to anything you wantto share. Don't hold back, don't let the
                              memories
                              of the Montreal Maroons fade away!

                              > I'm sure that Joe, as much as I would love to hear your
                              > personal views on some of the old players,like for example
                              > Jimmy Ward. What can you tell us about him ?
                              > How was he as a player ? What were his strengths and
                              > weaknesses ?
                              > Information about the old players is invaluable when it comes
                              > from someone who has seen them play.
                              > Memories from some of the obscure players would be
                              > especially thrilling I think.

                              Agreed! I found your Hooley Smith discussion interesting,and I'd love to hear about all members
                              of the Maroons,
                              big names or otherwise! Maybe you could compare
                              the old guys to the new guys as well as tell us about
                              them?

                              Anyways, welcome to all!

                              Joe
                              Hockey Over Time
                              http://www.lcshockey.com/history
                            • Frank TEX Liebmann
                              Jack, Write all you want about the Maroons. It s gerat. How do you compare the pace of the game through the decades. Stats are fine, but you ve seen seven
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 26 8:58 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Jack,

                                Write all you want about the Maroons. It's gerat. How do you compare the pace of the game through
                                the decades. Stats are fine, but you've seen seven decades of the sport. What is you opinion?

                                Also, how about doing a Maroon's home page?

                                Frank

                                Jack Bailie wrote:

                                > From: Jack Bailie <jack.bailie@...>
                                >
                                > This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my
                                > memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of
                                > town attending a family wedding and reunion which, incidentally, was one
                                > of the best parties in living memory. Pat, getting me started on the
                                > Maroons is easy. Getting me stopped is another matter. I lived and
                                > breathed that team, though vicariously, because this was the dirty
                                > thirties and the price of a game at the Montreal forum was not easily
                                > come by. Most of my Maroon games were enjoyed with my ear pressed
                                > against
                                > the old deForest Crosley or through the sports pages of the Montreal
                                > Star
                                > and Montreal Standard - both, like the team, long defunct. Though born
                                > in Ireland I was raised in Verdun, Quebec - a suburb of Montreal which
                                > was
                                > 50-50 French and English - hence a natural rivalry between the two
                                > NHL teams - the Maroons and the Canadiens. On any outdoor rink on any
                                > winter's day there would be almost an even number of kids wearing the
                                > Maroons sweater with the big white M or the bleu, blanc rouge of les
                                > Canadiens. I was the kid with the
                                > number four on the back of his Maroons sweater - I always pretended I
                                > was Jimmy Ward.
                                > Though times were tough I did manage to see a few games at the Forum.
                                > The Forum would sell off the remaining tickets in one end for 50 cents.
                                > This was known as the Rush End
                                > or the Millionaire's Section. They would go on sale about a half hour
                                > before game time.
                                > One wicket only on Closse Street behind the Forum. Often, if the teams
                                > were Maroons vs
                                > Canadiens or Maroons vs the Leafs, the line up would reach from the
                                > wicket to half way round the Forum. Surprisingly, I was only
                                > disappointed once. Dad and I were about six
                                > in line from the wicket when the ticket salesman called "No tikets
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...
                                > http://www.onelist.com
                                > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                              • Jerry Kastenholz
                                All I can say is Amen !!!!
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 27 9:13 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  All I can say is "Amen"!!!!

                                  Bill Underwood wrote:

                                  > From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                                  >
                                  > The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about Montreal's ability to
                                  > support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don't and both this subject as well as
                                  > another that I've seen on the list today, namely the fate of the Pens hit what is the game's worst
                                  > problem today--greed! Look at the last ten years, places like Quebec, Winnipeg, and Minnesota losing
                                  > teams despite their obvious love for the game! And yes, a city like New York which barely supports
                                  > two teams getting 3 and a place like Montreal having one that is huffing and puffing to keep up with
                                  > today's insane salaries!
                                  > If we lived in a sane world, not only would the Maroons be back but so would the Nordiques, Jets and
                                  > NORTH Stars!
                                  >
                                  > On another note, here is anopther little bit of Maroons trivia. Are you aware that after World War
                                  > II, we almost had the Philadelphia Maroons in the NHL. A businessman named Leonard Peto proposed to
                                  > buy the inactive Maroon franchise and to build a new arena in the City of Brotherly Love for them. He
                                  > went to the NHL in 1946 and the issue dragged on for about 2 years before two issues torped the idea.
                                  > First of all, Peto failed to have the finances in order for the project, secondly, the Philadelphia
                                  > AHL club and the Philadelphia Arena Company were taking legal action to prevent Pito from invading
                                  > their territory. Thus, Philly wouldn't see NHL hockey for 20 more years.
                                  >
                                  > Could you imagine how history might have changed? For one thing, the Norris's would have had less of
                                  > a hold on the Board of Governors so the Cleveland Barons may well have gotten in a few years later.
                                  > This, is turn could have opened the door for Hal Leader's people to have come in as the NHL's west in
                                  > the 60's. The entire face of the NHL could have been different!
                                  >
                                  > Bill Underwood
                                  >
                                  > Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > From: Frank TEX Liebmann <liebmann@...>
                                  > >
                                  > > Jack,
                                  > >
                                  > > Write all you want about the Maroons. It's gerat. How do you compare the pace of the game through
                                  > > the decades. Stats are fine, but you've seen seven decades of the sport. What is you opinion?
                                  > >
                                  > > Also, how about doing a Maroon's home page?
                                  > >
                                  > > Frank
                                  > >
                                  > > Jack Bailie wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > From: Jack Bailie <jack.bailie@...>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my
                                  > > > memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of
                                  > > > town attending a family wedding and reunion which, incidentally, was one
                                  > > > of the best parties in living memory. Pat, getting me started on the
                                  > > > Maroons is easy. Getting me stopped is another matter. I lived and
                                  > > > breathed that team, though vicariously, because this was the dirty
                                  > > > thirties and the price of a game at the Montreal forum was not easily
                                  > > > come by. Most of my Maroon games were enjoyed with my ear pressed
                                  > > > against
                                  > > > the old deForest Crosley or through the sports pages of the Montreal
                                  > > > Star
                                  > > > and Montreal Standard - both, like the team, long defunct. Though born
                                  > > > in Ireland I was raised in Verdun, Quebec - a suburb of Montreal which
                                  > > > was
                                  > > > 50-50 French and English - hence a natural rivalry between the two
                                  > > > NHL teams - the Maroons and the Canadiens. On any outdoor rink on any
                                  > > > winter's day there would be almost an even number of kids wearing the
                                  > > > Maroons sweater with the big white M or the bleu, blanc rouge of les
                                  > > > Canadiens. I was the kid with the
                                  > > > number four on the back of his Maroons sweater - I always pretended I
                                  > > > was Jimmy Ward.
                                  > > > Though times were tough I did manage to see a few games at the Forum.
                                  > > > The Forum would sell off the remaining tickets in one end for 50 cents.
                                  > > > This was known as the Rush End
                                  > > > or the Millionaire's Section. They would go on sale about a half hour
                                  > > > before game time.
                                  > > > One wicket only on Closse Street behind the Forum. Often, if the teams
                                  > > > were Maroons vs
                                  > > > Canadiens or Maroons vs the Leafs, the line up would reach from the
                                  > > > wicket to half way round the Forum. Surprisingly, I was only
                                  > > > disappointed once. Dad and I were about six
                                  > > > in line from the wicket when the ticket salesman called "No tikets
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > > > With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...
                                  > > > http://www.onelist.com
                                  > > > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
                                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > > > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                  > > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                  > > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > > How many communities do you think join ONElist each day?
                                  > > http://www.onelist.com
                                  > > More than 1,000! Create yours now!
                                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                  > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                  > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...
                                  > http://www.onelist.com
                                  > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                  > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                  > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                                • Travis Weir
                                  If I m not mistaken, I think Peto was a former Montreal Canadiens club executive. The Barons would have done okay had they been able to join the NHL in 47,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 27 9:28 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    If I'm not mistaken, I think Peto was a former Montreal Canadiens club executive. The Barons
                                    would have done okay had they been able to join the NHL in '47, they had some good players on their
                                    squads of the early 1950s ... Johnny Bower, Bob Chrystal, et al

                                    Jeff / All - wasn't Len Peto the same guy who tried to get an NHL franchise going in Los Angeles during
                                    the early 1960s ?


                                    TTYL,

                                    Trav



                                    > > From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                                    > >
                                    > > The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about Montreal's ability to
                                    > > support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don't and both this subject as well as
                                    > > another that I've seen on the list today, namely the fate of the Pens hit what is the game's worst
                                    > > problem today--greed! Look at the last ten years, places like Quebec, Winnipeg, and Minnesota losing
                                    > > teams despite their obvious love for the game! And yes, a city like New York which barely supports
                                    > > two teams getting 3 and a place like Montreal having one that is huffing and puffing to keep up with
                                    > > today's insane salaries!
                                    > > If we lived in a sane world, not only would the Maroons be back but so would the Nordiques, Jets and
                                    > > NORTH Stars!
                                    > >
                                    > > On another note, here is anopther little bit of Maroons trivia. Are you aware that after World War
                                    > > II, we almost had the Philadelphia Maroons in the NHL. A businessman named Leonard Peto proposed to
                                    > > buy the inactive Maroon franchise and to build a new arena in the City of Brotherly Love for them. He
                                    > > went to the NHL in 1946 and the issue dragged on for about 2 years before two issues torped the idea.
                                    > > First of all, Peto failed to have the finances in order for the project, secondly, the Philadelphia
                                    > > AHL club and the Philadelphia Arena Company were taking legal action to prevent Pito from invading
                                    > > their territory. Thus, Philly wouldn't see NHL hockey for 20 more years.
                                    > >
                                    > > Could you imagine how history might have changed? For one thing, the Norris's would have had less of
                                    > > a hold on the Board of Governors so the Cleveland Barons may well have gotten in a few years later.
                                    > > This, is turn could have opened the door for Hal Leader's people to have come in as the NHL's west in
                                    > > the 60's. The entire face of the NHL could have been different!
                                    > >
                                    > > Bill Underwood
                                    > >
                                    > > Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > From: Frank TEX Liebmann <liebmann@...>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Jack,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Write all you want about the Maroons. It's gerat. How do you compare the pace of the game through
                                    > > > the decades. Stats are fine, but you've seen seven decades of the sport. What is you opinion?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Also, how about doing a Maroon's home page?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Frank
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Jack Bailie wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > From: Jack Bailie <jack.bailie@...>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > This is a belated reply to Pat Houda and others who have asked for my
                                    > > > > memories of the Montreal Maroons - belated, because I have been out of
                                    > > > > town attending a family wedding and reunion which, incidentally, was one
                                    > > > > of the best parties in living memory. Pat, getting me started on the
                                    > > > > Maroons is easy. Getting me stopped is another matter. I lived and
                                    > > > > breathed that team, though vicariously, because this was the dirty
                                    > > > > thirties and the price of a game at the Montreal forum was not easily
                                    > > > > come by. Most of my Maroon games were enjoyed with my ear pressed
                                    > > > > against
                                    > > > > the old deForest Crosley or through the sports pages of the Montreal
                                    > > > > Star
                                    > > > > and Montreal Standard - both, like the team, long defunct. Though born
                                    > > > > in Ireland I was raised in Verdun, Quebec - a suburb of Montreal which
                                    > > > > was
                                    > > > > 50-50 French and English - hence a natural rivalry between the two
                                    > > > > NHL teams - the Maroons and the Canadiens. On any outdoor rink on any
                                    > > > > winter's day there would be almost an even number of kids wearing the
                                    > > > > Maroons sweater with the big white M or the bleu, blanc rouge of les
                                    > > > > Canadiens. I was the kid with the
                                    > > > > number four on the back of his Maroons sweater - I always pretended I
                                    > > > > was Jimmy Ward.
                                    > > > > Though times were tough I did manage to see a few games at the Forum.
                                    > > > > The Forum would sell off the remaining tickets in one end for 50 cents.
                                    > > > > This was known as the Rush End
                                    > > > > or the Millionaire's Section. They would go on sale about a half hour
                                    > > > > before game time.
                                    > > > > One wicket only on Closse Street behind the Forum. Often, if the teams
                                    > > > > were Maroons vs
                                    > > > > Canadiens or Maroons vs the Leafs, the line up would reach from the
                                    > > > > wicket to half way round the Forum. Surprisingly, I was only
                                    > > > > disappointed once. Dad and I were about six
                                    > > > > in line from the wicket when the ticket salesman called "No tikets
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > > With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...
                                    > > > > http://www.onelist.com
                                    > > > > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
                                    > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                    > > > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                    > > > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > How many communities do you think join ONElist each day?
                                    > > > http://www.onelist.com
                                    > > > More than 1,000! Create yours now!
                                    > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                    > > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                    > > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...
                                    > > http://www.onelist.com
                                    > > ...ONElist is THE place where the world talks!
                                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                    > > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                    > > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > ONElist: bringing the world together.
                                    > http://www.onelist.com
                                    > Join a new list today!
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > This has been a Hockey History List mailing
                                    > <A HREF=http://www.enol.com/~liebmann/hockey/hockhist.htm>Our Homepage</A>
                                    > The Hockey History List is the official mailing list of the Hockey Research Association (HRA)

                                    --
                                    Travis Weir,
                                    Motorola Cellular & Space Networks Sector
                                    (847) 632-4091
                                  • James Karkoski
                                    ... I m not so sure you are being fair to the New York area fans. If you want to talk about the Maroons, then you have to talk about the Americans, who despite
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 28 3:42 AM
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                                      >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                                      >
                                      >The Maroons are a great piece of hockey history. And you are right about
                                      >Montreal's ability to
                                      >support teams--if we lived in sane world. Unfortunately we don't and both
                                      >this subject as well as
                                      >another that I've seen on the list today, namely the fate of the Pens hit
                                      >what is the game's worst
                                      >problem today--greed! Look at the last ten years, places like Quebec,
                                      >Winnipeg, and Minnesota losing
                                      >teams despite their obvious love for the game! And yes, a city like New
                                      >York which barely supports
                                      >two teams getting 3 and a place like Montreal having one that is huffing
                                      >and puffing to keep up with
                                      >today's insane salaries!


                                      I'm not so sure you are being fair to the New York area fans.


                                      If you want to talk about the Maroons, then you have to talk about the
                                      Americans, who despite not having anything near the success of the
                                      Maroons were around longer than they were.


                                      The tradition of hockey in Montreal might have been a bit more glorious,
                                      a lot more romantic and successful but I don't think New York doesn't
                                      have one which isn't any less than the one in Montreal. Just because it
                                      hasn't been written about as much as Montreal has doesn't mean that it
                                      didn't have one.


                                      Unlike Montreal,having suffered through such lousy teams for so long,
                                      maybe the Greater Metropolitian area does deserve three teams? The
                                      Rangers will sell out no matter what kind of team they have, can the same
                                      be said for the Canadiens??


                                      James
                                    • Frank TEX Liebmann
                                      This will probably add some fuel to the fire. I have also wondered why pro hockey can t succeed in Minnesota. For a state that claims to be so hockey crazy,
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 28 9:57 PM
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                                        This will probably add some fuel to the fire.

                                        I have also wondered why pro hockey can't succeed in Minnesota. For a state that claims to be so
                                        hockey crazy, the pro game doesn't exist there. Is it that people are so lad back that they don't
                                        care?

                                        What puzzles me more is why there's nobody from Minnesota on this list. We had one person from
                                        Minnesota who was on the list for 3 days. And yet we have no trouble getting people from Georgia,
                                        South Carolina, Arizona and California. What gives?

                                        (Could we be wondering where the Wild are going to move in five years?)

                                        Frank

                                        James Karkoski wrote:

                                        > From: James Karkoski <austin@...>
                                        >
                                        > >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                                        >
                                        > >Some New Yorkers love their hockey as much as anybody. But the important
                                        > >word is some. On the other hand, Montreal is hockey mad.
                                        >
                                        > If some fans will pay all the seats, pay enough attention to the media
                                        > sources that carry
                                        > the team, and buy enough liscened products of the team so that the club
                                        > is happy with the profit margin it makes on the operation, doesn't that
                                        > make the city pretty "hockey mad"?
                                        >
                                        > Why does the whole city have to be turned on to hockey, or have this
                                        > fifty year history of hockey, to warrant that it has a NHL franchise if
                                        > the "some fans" in a "non-hockey area" will carry the puck and the team
                                        > makes money??
                                        >
                                        > The problem with cities like Winnipeg, Quebec and Minnea./St. Paul is
                                        > that unless the team is an absolute winner they won't support it as much
                                        > as the hockey-starved "some fans" in "a non-hockey" area will.
                                        >
                                        > >This is the psyche of the province. Hockey is baseball, football,and
                                        > >basketball, rolled into one. It is not a game, it is a part of the culture.
                                        > We ahve
                                        > >nothing to compare it to in the States,the closest thing that I've
                                        > experienced is the way
                                        > >that some Europeans and South Americans are about their soccer. Where in the
                                        > US do we get
                                        > >that sort of spirit?.
                                        >
                                        > Any time anyone's team gets on a playoff run is when that spirit catches
                                        > on in the US. That is true for any sport in the US and and in the world.
                                        > The difference is that we never take it up to the national level like
                                        > hockey fans in Canada and soccer fans in South American and Europe do. We
                                        > don't "nationalize" our sports. That is our culture, I guess.
                                        >
                                        > >Nothing against New York, after all that would include my own Dad, but
                                        > >hockey just isn't the same there. It is a great RANGER town but being a
                                        > Ranger fan is just
                                        > >not as universal as being a Hab fan.
                                        >
                                        > Just because a fan in Montreal has more access to hockey doesn't make
                                        > them "a more universal fan" than a person in New York, or any US City for
                                        > that matter. Living in "a non hockey area" doesn't make anyone with an
                                        > interest in hockey any less erudite than someone who does.Maybe 30 years
                                        > ago, but not in this tele-media age.
                                        >
                                        > The problems with Habs fans is that when the team doesn't have a chance
                                        > for the Cup the fans will start to ignore it in some strange sort of way
                                        > until it does. When the team doesn't meet their standards then they will
                                        > simply start to be coy to its existance and sort of watch it with a hand
                                        > over their eyes pretending not to notice until it does.
                                        >
                                        > Rangers fans have always rooted on hope the "maybe this will be the
                                        > year". Both eyes on the team until it finally expired. So, who is the
                                        > better fan, the one who switches the tv on when the team is in the
                                        > playoffs or the one who switches it off when the team is out of the
                                        > playoffs??
                                        >
                                        > I think you made a good point which most people outside of the US don't
                                        > understand about hockey fans in the US. That they get attached to the
                                        > game through their love of a team.Which is why "that Basketball guy" who
                                        > is running the NHL keeps stuffing teams into "non-hockey" places. He's
                                        > giving the US fans more teams to love.
                                        >
                                        > Sure,it is about money, but it is also about making money from fans who
                                        > really haven't spent money on hockey before, or reconnecting with fans
                                        > who don't have the opportunity to spend money on hockey anymore. What is
                                        > wrong with trying to find new fans or reclaim old ones??
                                        >
                                        > >Also New York got three teams less out of planning than accident. The
                                        > Islanders came out
                                        > >of the blue in 1972 to keep the WHA out of Nassau Coliseum. There wasn't even
                                        > a
                                        > >thought of an NHL teamthere in any expansion plan until the WHA scared the
                                        > pants off the
                                        > >Board of Governors. The last thing that they wanted was a WHA team in the Big
                                        > Apple that
                                        > >they couldn't torp with exorbitant rent! like they did to the Raiders in the
                                        > Garden.
                                        >
                                        > Think of the Islanders expansion this way: The NHL was scared that the
                                        > Raiders would get the attention of all those Ranger fans that couldn't
                                        > get in the Garden. So,they gave them another NHL team.
                                        >
                                        > The Islander expansion, like any other NHL expansion until the 1990s, was
                                        > a reaction to the something in the world around rather than any "plan" on
                                        > the NHL's part.
                                        >
                                        > >As for the Devils, they were the result of a trucking magnate in North
                                        > >Jersey seeing Meadowlands Arena sitting there so...
                                        >
                                        > And the Meadowlands actually sits almost smack dab in the middle between
                                        > two cities that sell out absolutely every game. The Rangers on the right,
                                        > and the Flyers on the left. The NHL was more than happy to let John
                                        > McMullen pay them so he could pack a franchise no one in KC or Denver
                                        > would watch into some of his trucks and drive them there.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >No offence meant, I have as much respect for your true Ranger fan as anybody
                                        > (or Islanader
                                        > >or Devil fan) but in New York hockey is a sport, in Montreal, it is a
                                        > centerpiece of life.
                                        > >I've seen it and heard it first hand over 20 years of visiting and, at times,
                                        > doing
                                        > >work there. I don't mean to belittle New York fans but rather to do homage to
                                        > Montrealers.
                                        >
                                        > Well, different cultures have different attitudes towards things. That's
                                        > not to say one of these attitudes towards hockey is any better than the
                                        > others. It's not the US sports fans fault that their are other sports
                                        > besides hockey around to take an interest in.I'm not sure that's what
                                        > your not doing when you say the hockey is "a way of life" in Montreal and
                                        > merely "a sport" in New York.
                                        >
                                        > James
                                        >
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                                      • Joe
                                        ... Hi all. Very interesting arguments for both sides here. ... Born in British Columbia, I ve always been a Canuck fan. For morethan 20 years I ve stood by
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 28 10:17 PM
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                                          >

                                          Hi all. Very interesting arguments for both sides here.

                                          > Rangers fans have always rooted on hope the "maybe this will be the
                                          > year". Both eyes on the team until it finally expired. So, who is the
                                          > better fan, the one who switches the tv on when the team is in the
                                          > playoffs or the one who switches it off when the team is out of the
                                          > playoffs??

                                          Born in British Columbia, I've always been a Canuck fan. For morethan 20 years I've stood by them
                                          (although its tough with Orca Bay
                                          and hasbeen Mark Messier around), as have a lot of faithful Vancouver
                                          fans. By the above quoted argument, maybe the Canucks have the
                                          best fans! They've probably been the worst team over the past
                                          30 years! The NHL's version of the LA Clippers!

                                          Joe
                                          Hockey Over Time
                                          http://www.lcshockey.com/history
                                        • Frank TEX Liebmann
                                          ... That being said, wasn t the biggest crowd in NFL history in Mexico City?
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 28 11:21 PM
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                                            > to have 50 years of 4 down football to warrant teams. Why should football have to be a major
                                            > sport there? So while we're at it, why not the Bengals to Mexico City.

                                            That being said, wasn't the biggest crowd in NFL history in Mexico City?
                                          • James Karkoski
                                            ... If some fans will pay all the seats, pay enough attention to the media sources that carry the team, and buy enough liscened products of the team so that
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 29 4:09 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>

                                              >Some New Yorkers love their hockey as much as anybody. But the important
                                              >word is some. On the other hand, Montreal is hockey mad.


                                              If some fans will pay all the seats, pay enough attention to the media
                                              sources that carry
                                              the team, and buy enough liscened products of the team so that the club
                                              is happy with the profit margin it makes on the operation, doesn't that
                                              make the city pretty "hockey mad"?


                                              Why does the whole city have to be turned on to hockey, or have this
                                              fifty year history of hockey, to warrant that it has a NHL franchise if
                                              the "some fans" in a "non-hockey area" will carry the puck and the team
                                              makes money??


                                              The problem with cities like Winnipeg, Quebec and Minnea./St. Paul is
                                              that unless the team is an absolute winner they won't support it as much
                                              as the hockey-starved "some fans" in "a non-hockey" area will.


                                              >This is the psyche of the province. Hockey is baseball, football,and
                                              >basketball, rolled into one. It is not a game, it is a part of the culture.
                                              We ahve
                                              >nothing to compare it to in the States,the closest thing that I've
                                              experienced is the way
                                              >that some Europeans and South Americans are about their soccer. Where in the
                                              US do we get
                                              >that sort of spirit?.


                                              Any time anyone's team gets on a playoff run is when that spirit catches
                                              on in the US. That is true for any sport in the US and and in the world.
                                              The difference is that we never take it up to the national level like
                                              hockey fans in Canada and soccer fans in South American and Europe do. We
                                              don't "nationalize" our sports. That is our culture, I guess.


                                              >Nothing against New York, after all that would include my own Dad, but
                                              >hockey just isn't the same there. It is a great RANGER town but being a
                                              Ranger fan is just
                                              >not as universal as being a Hab fan.


                                              Just because a fan in Montreal has more access to hockey doesn't make
                                              them "a more universal fan" than a person in New York, or any US City for
                                              that matter. Living in "a non hockey area" doesn't make anyone with an
                                              interest in hockey any less erudite than someone who does.Maybe 30 years
                                              ago, but not in this tele-media age.


                                              The problems with Habs fans is that when the team doesn't have a chance
                                              for the Cup the fans will start to ignore it in some strange sort of way
                                              until it does. When the team doesn't meet their standards then they will
                                              simply start to be coy to its existance and sort of watch it with a hand
                                              over their eyes pretending not to notice until it does.


                                              Rangers fans have always rooted on hope the "maybe this will be the
                                              year". Both eyes on the team until it finally expired. So, who is the
                                              better fan, the one who switches the tv on when the team is in the
                                              playoffs or the one who switches it off when the team is out of the
                                              playoffs??


                                              I think you made a good point which most people outside of the US don't
                                              understand about hockey fans in the US. That they get attached to the
                                              game through their love of a team.Which is why "that Basketball guy" who
                                              is running the NHL keeps stuffing teams into "non-hockey" places. He's
                                              giving the US fans more teams to love.


                                              Sure,it is about money, but it is also about making money from fans who
                                              really haven't spent money on hockey before, or reconnecting with fans
                                              who don't have the opportunity to spend money on hockey anymore. What is
                                              wrong with trying to find new fans or reclaim old ones??


                                              >Also New York got three teams less out of planning than accident. The
                                              Islanders came out
                                              >of the blue in 1972 to keep the WHA out of Nassau Coliseum. There wasn't even
                                              a
                                              >thought of an NHL teamthere in any expansion plan until the WHA scared the
                                              pants off the
                                              >Board of Governors. The last thing that they wanted was a WHA team in the Big
                                              Apple that
                                              >they couldn't torp with exorbitant rent! like they did to the Raiders in the
                                              Garden.


                                              Think of the Islanders expansion this way: The NHL was scared that the
                                              Raiders would get the attention of all those Ranger fans that couldn't
                                              get in the Garden. So,they gave them another NHL team.


                                              The Islander expansion, like any other NHL expansion until the 1990s, was
                                              a reaction to the something in the world around rather than any "plan" on
                                              the NHL's part.


                                              >As for the Devils, they were the result of a trucking magnate in North
                                              >Jersey seeing Meadowlands Arena sitting there so...


                                              And the Meadowlands actually sits almost smack dab in the middle between
                                              two cities that sell out absolutely every game. The Rangers on the right,
                                              and the Flyers on the left. The NHL was more than happy to let John
                                              McMullen pay them so he could pack a franchise no one in KC or Denver
                                              would watch into some of his trucks and drive them there.


                                              >No offence meant, I have as much respect for your true Ranger fan as anybody
                                              (or Islanader
                                              >or Devil fan) but in New York hockey is a sport, in Montreal, it is a
                                              centerpiece of life.
                                              >I've seen it and heard it first hand over 20 years of visiting and, at times,
                                              doing
                                              >work there. I don't mean to belittle New York fans but rather to do homage to
                                              Montrealers.


                                              Well, different cultures have different attitudes towards things. That's
                                              not to say one of these attitudes towards hockey is any better than the
                                              others. It's not the US sports fans fault that their are other sports
                                              besides hockey around to take an interest in.I'm not sure that's what
                                              your not doing when you say the hockey is "a way of life" in Montreal and
                                              merely "a sport" in New York.


                                              James
                                            • Bill Underwood
                                              I also seem to recall that I heard somewhere that Norm Green had benn a naughty boy and a law suit was pending in Minnesota. Does anybody else remember that ?
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 30 2:27 AM
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                                                I also seem to recall that I heard somewhere that Norm Green had benn a naughty boy and a law suit was
                                                pending in Minnesota. Does anybody else remember that ?



                                                Kenneth R. Holdren wrote:

                                                > From: "Kenneth R. Holdren" <krholdren@...>
                                                >
                                                > On 5/28/99--Frank wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >I have also wondered why pro hockey can't succeed in Minnesota. For a state that claims to be so
                                                > hockey crazy, the pro game doesn't exist there. Is it that people are so lad back that they don't
                                                > care?
                                                >
                                                > ***
                                                >
                                                > Others on the list probably have a better idea of what the numbers were for the North Stars but I
                                                > always thought they were somewhat successful in Minnesota. The last owner of the North Stars just
                                                > tried to get more out of the politicians in Minnesota and, when he couldn't any longer, he found
                                                > politicians in another state willing to meet his demands. In many ways, just like Irsey and
                                                > Baltimore/Indianapolis and Modell and Cleveland/Baltimore.
                                                >
                                                > A while back, there was a piece in USA TODAY in the business section on the Minnesota Wild and
                                                > their new owners. I didn't save the article so I don't remember much about it but I do remember I
                                                > was impressed with what the Wild's owners had for financial baking.
                                                >
                                                > The only name I could come up right now for the Wild's owner is the name Robert O. Naegele Jr.
                                                > The only thing I could come up with when doing a word search for Naegele was inline roller
                                                > skating.
                                                >
                                                > ***
                                                >
                                                > >What puzzles me more is why there's nobody from Minnesota on this list. We had one person from
                                                > Minnesota who was on the list for 3 days. And yet we have no trouble getting people from Georgia,
                                                > South Carolina, Arizona and California. What gives?
                                                >
                                                > ***
                                                >
                                                > Alot of that has to do, I think, with where people originated from. Being one of te Georgians on
                                                > this list, I'm originally (and still proudly) from Virginia. Most of the others on the list from
                                                > those southern cities probably have northern or more colder roots also.
                                                >
                                                > I know, according to Lane's website, there are some North Star tribute pages. If the authors of
                                                > those pages are still actively working on those sites, I wonder if they knw about this list?
                                                >
                                                > ===
                                                > Kenneth
                                                > (krholdren@...)
                                                > ===
                                                > "Calling the Houston Rockets' offense one-dimensional is an insult to stick figures everywhere."
                                                > Fran Blineberry-writer, Houston Chronicle
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                                              • James Karkoski
                                                ... Yes, Americans do pay attention to football on the national level in the US, but there is no World Cup of American Football where there is a passionate
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 30 2:58 AM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  >From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>

                                                  >You bring up tsome good points. And I would actually disagree with you
                                                  >that Americans don't nationalize at least one sport--football.


                                                  Yes, Americans do pay attention to football on the national level in the
                                                  US, but there is no "World Cup of American Football" where there is a
                                                  passionate zeal for an national team in competition against other nations
                                                  teams. There has never been an experience like a World Cup, or the 72
                                                  Canada-Soviet Series which one country lives and dies by the result of
                                                  their national team.


                                                  The reason why I have been posting is because I think that since you are
                                                  an ex-scout that you are confusing the world of hockey for the players
                                                  with the world of hockey for the fans. When you write about how "hockey
                                                  is the centerpiece of life in Montreal" while "it is only a sport in New
                                                  York," you have confused the two worlds of player and fan into one
                                                  confused ball which no longer is making the distinction between the two.


                                                  My point basically is that you don't need to be an ex-player to be a
                                                  great fan and that it is a lot more difficult to become a hockey fan,and
                                                  stay a hockey fan, in the US because it isn't
                                                  "hockey mad" as Canada is. You don't get the coverage on tv or in the
                                                  newspaper which makes it harder to follow and keep in contact with the
                                                  sport.That makes you a different kind of fan.


                                                  James
                                                • Bill Underwood
                                                  I really don t know. I ve never seen what became of him after the Philly bid. It s entirely possible that he was involved in other bids but I ve never seen his
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , May 30 3:57 AM
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                                                    I really don't know. I've never seen what became of him after the Philly bid. It's entirely possible that he was
                                                    involved in other bids but I've never seen his name specifically. It always was implied that Philly was his big
                                                    project, and given it's failure, I don't know if he would have retained the credibility to try again. It's a good
                                                    question! All of these early expansion attempts are fascinating stuff! It's also interesting to see WHO shot them
                                                    down!

                                                    It seems a lot like Philly pretty much shot itself in the foot and that travel was a real concern about the Western
                                                    bids early on. But later on, there certainly is a smoking gun around the Norris family who owned Detroit and
                                                    Chicago as well as a significant share of Madison Square Garden in the 1950's. They basically had 3 votes out of 6
                                                    on the Baord of Governors, hence controlling much of the league's destiny. Had a 4th non Norris tean entered the
                                                    NHL, the math would have SIGNIFICANTLY changed! Norris power began to erode in the 60's. James senior had died in
                                                    the early 50's and James junior was under Anti Trust investigation and had a heart attack around 1957. But the
                                                    Atnti Trust ruling forced the Norris's to sell their Madison Square Garden interest. This led to the rise of the
                                                    early patron of expansion, William Jennings in New York. While the Norriis's partners, the Wirtz family ultimately
                                                    took over the Hawks, Jim's more easy going half brother, Bruce ran the Red Wings from 1955 on. Jim died in 1966. So
                                                    one can see some degree of coincidence in all of this! But the influence was still there enought to see to it that
                                                    St Louis got anNHL team in 1967 even though there had been NO APPLICATION from that city. It turns out that the
                                                    Norris and Wirtz families owned an old barn called St Louis Arena, and they wanted an NHL tenent to make it
                                                    anything but a useless holding! So, while cities like Vancouver, Buffalo, and Baltimore were put off in 1965,
                                                    theleague held a spot open for St. Louis.

                                                    It's also interesting the stories of Vancouver and Quebec. Despite Toronto's early sipport of Vanmcouver in the
                                                    early 60's (the Smythe family was involved in an arena proposal), it was really the Leafs and Habs that shot them
                                                    down for '67. It seems that the two Eastern metropoli didn't like splittind the big Canadain TV kitty 3 ways! But
                                                    under severe preassure from the Canadian government, this was rectified in 1970.

                                                    As for the Nords, nobody wanted them to be a part of the merger less than the Montreal Canadiens who didn't want to
                                                    share revenue from La Belle Province with anybody. However, after a successful boycott of Molson produsts (the Habs
                                                    parent company), they were forced to yield.

                                                    But back to the original matter! If anybody can find anything moreout about the mysterious Mr. Peto, I know I'd be
                                                    VERY interested!

                                                    Bill Underwood



                                                    orangeco@... wrote:

                                                    > From: orangeco@...
                                                    >
                                                    > Bill Underwood wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > That is really interesting stuff about about Peto. I've only ever seen him referred to as a "businessman".
                                                    > > This could be food for further research as the one thing that I haven't really done is to look at some old
                                                    > > Philly papers from the era. I doubt that he was behind LA's later bid as the Blades owner was a James Piggot.
                                                    > > However, there was a drive for LA that pre dated the Blades so I wonder... I seem to recall that Piggot was
                                                    > > originally from Saskatoon and also owned the junior Blades.
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Bill,
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm going through the old posts and saw this one. When did Peto try for
                                                    > an NHL franchise in LA? Would this have been in 1949 which was the same
                                                    > time Frisco made a bid? The San Francisco bid was from George Campbell
                                                    > who ran the PCHL SF Shamrocks in the Wintergarden. There was a bid from
                                                    > LA roughly along the same time frame but it wasn't from the Henderson's
                                                    > who ran the Pan Pacific Auditorium. They had sold their interest before
                                                    > 49.
                                                    >
                                                    > Dana
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    > It's finally here! What's your opinion?
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                                                    > Create a Star Wars discussion group at ONElist.
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                                                  • Kenneth R. Holdren
                                                    ... hockey crazy, the pro game doesn t exist there. Is it that people are so lad back that they don t care? *** Others on the list probably have a better idea
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , May 31 4:54 PM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      On 5/28/99--Frank wrote:

                                                      >I have also wondered why pro hockey can't succeed in Minnesota. For a state that claims to be so
                                                      hockey crazy, the pro game doesn't exist there. Is it that people are so lad back that they don't
                                                      care?

                                                      ***

                                                      Others on the list probably have a better idea of what the numbers were for the North Stars but I
                                                      always thought they were somewhat successful in Minnesota. The last owner of the North Stars just
                                                      tried to get more out of the politicians in Minnesota and, when he couldn't any longer, he found
                                                      politicians in another state willing to meet his demands. In many ways, just like Irsey and
                                                      Baltimore/Indianapolis and Modell and Cleveland/Baltimore.

                                                      A while back, there was a piece in USA TODAY in the business section on the Minnesota Wild and
                                                      their new owners. I didn't save the article so I don't remember much about it but I do remember I
                                                      was impressed with what the Wild's owners had for financial baking.

                                                      The only name I could come up right now for the Wild's owner is the name Robert O. Naegele Jr.
                                                      The only thing I could come up with when doing a word search for Naegele was inline roller
                                                      skating.

                                                      ***

                                                      >What puzzles me more is why there's nobody from Minnesota on this list. We had one person from
                                                      Minnesota who was on the list for 3 days. And yet we have no trouble getting people from Georgia,
                                                      South Carolina, Arizona and California. What gives?


                                                      ***

                                                      Alot of that has to do, I think, with where people originated from. Being one of te Georgians on
                                                      this list, I'm originally (and still proudly) from Virginia. Most of the others on the list from
                                                      those southern cities probably have northern or more colder roots also.

                                                      I know, according to Lane's website, there are some North Star tribute pages. If the authors of
                                                      those pages are still actively working on those sites, I wonder if they knw about this list?


                                                      ===
                                                      Kenneth
                                                      (krholdren@...)
                                                      ===
                                                      "Calling the Houston Rockets' offense one-dimensional is an insult to stick figures everywhere."
                                                      Fran Blineberry-writer, Houston Chronicle
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                                                    • orangeco@xxxxxxx.xxx
                                                      ... Hi Bill, I m going through the old posts and saw this one. When did Peto try for an NHL franchise in LA? Would this have been in 1949 which was the same
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Jun 1, 1999
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                                                        Bill Underwood wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > From: Bill Underwood <wausport@...>
                                                        >
                                                        > That is really interesting stuff about about Peto. I've only ever seen him referred to as a "businessman".
                                                        > This could be food for further research as the one thing that I haven't really done is to look at some old
                                                        > Philly papers from the era. I doubt that he was behind LA's later bid as the Blades owner was a James Piggot.
                                                        > However, there was a drive for LA that pre dated the Blades so I wonder... I seem to recall that Piggot was
                                                        > originally from Saskatoon and also owned the junior Blades.

                                                        Hi Bill,

                                                        I'm going through the old posts and saw this one. When did Peto try for
                                                        an NHL franchise in LA? Would this have been in 1949 which was the same
                                                        time Frisco made a bid? The San Francisco bid was from George Campbell
                                                        who ran the PCHL SF Shamrocks in the Wintergarden. There was a bid from
                                                        LA roughly along the same time frame but it wasn't from the Henderson's
                                                        who ran the Pan Pacific Auditorium. They had sold their interest before
                                                        49.

                                                        Dana
                                                      • orangeco@xxxxxxx.xxx
                                                        ... Hi Frank, Back in the early days of the first NHL expansion, the North Stars and Blues were probably the most successful of the expansion teams at the box
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Jun 1, 1999
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                                                          Frank TEX Liebmann wrote:

                                                          > This will probably add some fuel to the fire.
                                                          >
                                                          > I have also wondered why pro hockey can't succeed in Minnesota. For a state that claims to be so
                                                          > hockey crazy, the pro game doesn't exist there. Is it that people are so lad back that they don't
                                                          > care?

                                                          Hi Frank,

                                                          Back in the early days of the first NHL expansion, the North Stars and
                                                          Blues were probably the most successful of the expansion teams at the
                                                          box office. My guess is that the North Stars troubles didn't start
                                                          until the WHA came along and they had competition with the Fighting
                                                          Saints. Since the Fighting Saints only lasted a few seasons, I don't
                                                          know when the team started having trouble after the Saints were history.

                                                          When pro hockey returned in the form of the IHL Moose, the team made a
                                                          huge mistake by hiring an incompetant GM. Frank Serratore??? may have
                                                          been his name. The inaugural Moose he assembled was the absolute
                                                          slowest IHL I've ever seen. Instead he went for size and a lot of
                                                          toughness. I saw them play a couple of gamess against the early LA Ice
                                                          Dogs, a team full of mostly quick little guys on forwards and they
                                                          skated rings around the Moose. The Moose may have had some tough
                                                          intimidating players, but you can't beat up what you can't catch.
                                                          Instead the Moose defense was intimidated and were backing up all game
                                                          long as the Ice Dogs whizzed by them. After the inaugural season was
                                                          over, he did nothing to improve the team's speed during the off-season
                                                          and subsequently the team had the very same problems for season #2 and
                                                          this time I was watching the now Long Beach Ice Dogs skate rings around
                                                          the Moose. Eventually he was canned. But I imagine the damage to the
                                                          IHL's reputation was irrepairable and off to Manitoba they went.

                                                          Our neighbors had some visitors from Minneapolis over a couple of
                                                          summers ago who were huge hockey fans. They were regaling me with
                                                          stories of high school and college hockey and how great the whole scene
                                                          was especially when tournaments were held. I mentioned the Moose and
                                                          was told to forget about them. Their description of the Moose was slow
                                                          (like I observed), and dull and boring. Who wanted to see them when
                                                          there were so many better alternatives. I imagine an NHL team will work
                                                          there with a new modern arena for generating revenue and an if they
                                                          develop a good team over time.

                                                          Dana
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